NoIDidn't Posted May 24, 2010 Posted May 24, 2010 I agree with Bent that appearances can be deceiving. In the beginning of just about all affairs, both APs think they are benefitting. But once the feelings and angst really start taking root, they both start to suffer. The MM can no longer concentrate on anything other than hiding his secret from family and friends - and this is not pleasurable distraction, its worry and anxiety over the logistics of the double life. The OW wants more but often is afraid to discuss with the MM, hence forums like this one. I understand what nadia is getting at and feeling, but knowing so many MM and OW, and vice versa, IRL - the reality is very different from what others are lead to believe.
ladydesigner Posted May 24, 2010 Posted May 24, 2010 Been trying not to post, but I just can't help myself given the topic. I think that the case in which the MM is a slick player who is having a great time f-ing his W and his OW while they both suffer is not common. MM (except perhaps serial cheaters) suffer a lot, but, as was pointed out earlier, not many of them (us) post on LS. Who needs that abuse? When an A is good, both APs benefit. When it goes bad, both suffer. Trying to compare the level of suffering is a fool's game. I can only speak for myself. When MW and I were good, there was this incredible connection that was great for both of us. I've never felt anything like it, before or since. She felt the same way, or at least I think she did. Since we've been done (and I couldn't tell you when exactly that happened) my pain is also unlike anything I've felt before. I do not have the words to describe it. Has she also suffered? You'd have to ask her. She won't talk to me anymore. Just based on what I've seen, I'd say yes, she's suffering, too. (And I sure as hell hope so!!!) joey66 it is so refreshing to read your posts since you are a man. It gives me a good feeling that maybe what I shared with my XOM was real and we both did really care/love each other we just knew we couldn't be together, I knew. He had enough strength to end it. I'm glad he did as he did me a HUGE favor. I still miss him at times especially our friendship. I do believe my XOM hurt as much as I did, it was visible in his emails to me after we ended.
White Flower Posted May 24, 2010 Posted May 24, 2010 In my limited experiance.... My ex's "A" didn't benifie me.... neither did my affair with a married woman. 0-2. Not a very successful record. I don't agree with the OP at all. The only difference is you were the BS and the OM. You were never the MM who had an A with an OW. It's just not in you.
Author nadiaj2727 Posted May 24, 2010 Author Posted May 24, 2010 Everyone's comments have really made me think even more about this issue, thanks. It does seem to me that *in general* men are better at compartamentalizing. (And I also get the point that they are less likely to communicate, online or otherwise, about emotional issues, than women generally are... that's a good point). It really seems to me that *some* men are totally okay with having the stable wife/family relationship while also being habitual cheaters. Whereas women are not generally okay with being the OW, so either the MM is lying to them/stringing them along, or they are hoping the MM is going to eventually want to leave for them. It seems to me that most OW usually don't get into an affair unless their heart is involved (this was my situation... "I didn't think I would ever do such a thing but we're in love" and I recognize it in many many posts here), or that some go into the A thinking their hearts won't get involved but then it ends up happening anyway. BTW, OtherWoman, you are a definitely an exception to practically everything I just wrote. And I know there have been unhappy OMs and MMs here but it is much more rare than the unhappy OWs and MOWs posts... so again, to me it seems to be the exception rather than the rule. I guess this ties me back to the post about "how to have a successful affair." I'm sorry I can't remember who has been saying what, exactly, because I've been browsing on here recently but not reading everything, due to lack of time. But to me it seems like if by successful you mean causing the least amount of hurt to yourself, then you have to be able to compartamentalize it, like *generally* men are much better at. You can't let your heart get involved or if it does you have to realize it's just temporary or about a high, or something, but basically it's about the sex, or the attention, or whatever. But then again I wonder if people can really do that if they're not that way by nature. I know I'm not and wouldn't even want to be. (NOT being judgmental, just trying to understand things.) So to me it would seem that unless someone *knows* the good, bad and ugly of an affair and is willing to accept it just as it is and not let their emotions get too involved, then they shouldn't have one. So to me that is why it is hard to "support" or to find "supportive" posts for unhappy OWs... because usually it's obvious that the OW is unhappy due to the nature of the affair itself so the best advice is usually to run away. And then there is the natural reaction about, even if it makes the cheating spouse happy, it is hurting or could hurt the BS. And I'm not even focusing on that part of the equation, just the part where the OW, to me, usually ends up getting hurt. Whoever said that the OW and BS get hurt when the MM is lying to both seems to me to be really right on. (And it could work the same way when it's a MW too so not trying to be sexist but again generalizing by what I read over and over again here.) I don't know if this is making sense to anyone else and if not then please excuse my non-sensical ramblings. But in my head it has been making sense and I stick to my premise but revise it slightly to say that affairs can benefit the MM who wants to cake-eat and hurt the OW who wants an exclusive relationship with the MM. I guess that is really obvious statement ha ha but I'm using it to explain why I don't "support" the unhappy OW by telling her to stay in the affair... which is another thread all together but they've all been jumbling around in my head lately.
Fallen Angel Posted May 24, 2010 Posted May 24, 2010 I think perhaps that you are misunderstanding the meaning placed on the word support that we were discussing in a different thread and that perhaps that is what you are talking about in your latest post. Support doe not mean that you must cheerlead for the continuation of an unhealthy relationship. Support is to find the root of the persons pain and help them to find the least hurtful resolution that they can live with. At least that is my outlook on it. *shrug*
White Flower Posted May 25, 2010 Posted May 25, 2010 I think perhaps that you are misunderstanding the meaning placed on the word support that we were discussing in a different thread and that perhaps that is what you are talking about in your latest post. Support doe not mean that you must cheerlead for the continuation of an unhealthy relationship. Support is to find the root of the persons pain and help them to find the least hurtful resolution that they can live with. At least that is my outlook on it. *shrug* I think you are right. Sometimes we just support the issue, the moment, or the person and not neccessarily the A itself. Tell us the problem and we'll show you how we would deal with it if it were us. We don't have to believe in the whole dynamic in order to do this.
pureinheart Posted May 25, 2010 Posted May 25, 2010 IMHO...If a MM who loves his wife but was having issues in the marriage for awhile, and wasn't the pursuer, and the single female kept chipping away at him (remember his marriage has issue)..he gives in...feels guilty beyond belief..yes it will have some kind of ripple effect...but if the MM is the pursuer then IMO he will not feel remorse since he was the pursuer then he is a scumbag.. In reality exDM chased me relentlessly, I was always telling him to get lost, he was the one that was M'ed not me. The other reality is, is we all make mistakes, some intentional, some not. In the end I had enforce what was right for me, and say notta... *In classical mechanics, Newton's third law states that forces occur in pairs, one called the Action and the other the Reaction (actio et reactio in Latin). Both forces are equal in magnitude and opposite in direction. The distinction between action and reaction is purely arbitrary: any one of the two forces can be considered an action, in which case the other (corresponding) force automatically becomes its associated reaction.* My action caused exDM to do the right thing by everyone...
pureinheart Posted May 25, 2010 Posted May 25, 2010 In my limited experiance.... My ex's "A" didn't benifie me.... neither did my affair with a married woman. 0-2. Not a very successful record. I don't agree with the OP at all. Wow, LD you've been on two sides of this...I never knew either of these...you seem to have come out ok, is this correct? Not a successful record, although you lived through it:)
Samantha0905 Posted May 25, 2010 Posted May 25, 2010 Nadjia I think you are right - in a majority of cases, the OW posting here are unhappy. I think the A is harder on the AP than it is on the MP. But that being said I think it does impact many MP negatively. Very very few people can live a double life without feeling some angst. And even fewer are happy about the fact that they feel (for whatever reason) that they need to go outside of their marriages to get their needs met (whether or not this is true). All in all I think most people would prefer to be happy with their lives as they are and not be cheating whether its because they are unfulfilled in themselves or whether they are in a marriage and for whatever reason feel that they cant leave. As for the AP, most if not all AP who do want more than an A would prefer to have fallen in love with someone who could build a life with them. So true. I do not think anyone "benefits" from an affair. People certainly benefit from loving relationships, but if anything the affair dynamic is hurtful to that loving relationship in that it does not allow the relationship to flourish into all that it can be. While on the surface it may appear that the MP gets all the "benefits" and the OP gets the agony; I assure you that many MP, who find themselves torn between real love with their OP and the duty and commitment (and even love) they feel towards their spouse and family, feel real pain at the conundrum in which they have placed themselves. They feel guilt for hurting both their spouse and their OP. They feel anger at themselves for not being able to do better for the people they love. They feel torn between doing what they feel is right and what they feel they have to do in order to be happy for themselves. I'm that MP. When an A is good, both APs benefit. When it goes bad, both suffer. Trying to compare the level of suffering is a fool's game. Amen. I can only speak for myself. When MW and I were good, there was this incredible connection that was great for both of us. I've never felt anything like it, before or since. She felt the same way, or at least I think she did. Since we've been done (and I couldn't tell you when exactly that happened) my pain is also unlike anything I've felt before. I do not have the words to describe it. Has she also suffered? You'd have to ask her. She won't talk to me anymore. Just based on what I've seen, I'd say yes, she's suffering, too. (And I sure as hell hope so!!!) That's how I feel about my XAP. I bet yours has suffered also. It sounds like the two of you were in love. Approximately how long has it been since she spoke? Did she have children? I always wonder how two people who feel that strong connection can just not speak for an extended period of time.
OWoman Posted May 25, 2010 Posted May 25, 2010 I'm using it to explain why I don't "support" the unhappy OW by telling her to stay in the affair... :confused: I can't recall ever having seen anyone telling an OW who was unhappy about being an OW to stay in the A...? :confused: Perhaps someone cold give examples of this...? IMO, there is nothing "supportive" about telling someone to keep doing something that is making them unhappy. I always advise anyone to leave ANY R - whether M, A, or any other kind of R - if the negatives outweigh the positives for them. Perhaps "life is dukkha" for those with a religious bent, but I'm more inclined to a philosophy which says life should be about fulfillment rather than pain or suffering.
Author nadiaj2727 Posted May 25, 2010 Author Posted May 25, 2010 :confused: I can't recall ever having seen anyone telling an OW who was unhappy about being an OW to stay in the A...? :confused: Perhaps someone cold give examples of this...? IMO, there is nothing "supportive" about telling someone to keep doing something that is making them unhappy. I always advise anyone to leave ANY R - whether M, A, or any other kind of R - if the negatives outweigh the positives for them. Perhaps "life is dukkha" for those with a religious bent, but I'm more inclined to a philosophy which says life should be about fulfillment rather than pain or suffering. I guess I worded it wrong, I don't mean people say "stay in the affair" but sometimes some people seem to get upset when other people say, "don't stay in the affair." As far as FallenAngel's comments about me misunderstanding, well I just don't understand the issue I guess and that's why I've been thinking about it. So if I misunderstand, so be it, I think support is a subjective concept and what it is for me is probably different than what it is for other people. I guess I don't know the type of support I'm supposed to be giving but based on my life experiences and my thoughts on the OW usually getting hurt in all of this, and hurting other people, and usually ending up sad, guilty, angry, confused, or some combination of all of this, my view and what I end up saying is run in the other direction. I know the details are different but to me I usually see the same pattern that happened in my A happen to other people, especially women, and IMO it stinks. It seemed to me like people were saying we had to agree with what someone is doing or at least hold our tongues and not say we don't agree with them or else we are not being supportive. To me it is supporting someone to say, hey, take some personal responsibility for your actions, don't play the victim, why are you staying in this situation when you are unhappy, I think that what you are doing is wrong and I think you will end up getting hurt and hurting other people, etc. etc. etc. All of this is based on my own personal experiences and opinions and it really helped me to hear this from other people and wake up a bit so I say that when I'm on here and then I read what seems to be saying that this type of "support" is wrong, I guess, I don't know, and I don't get it. I understand things get heated on message boards and I have thrown some stones and gotten some stones thrown back at me and I know that that isn't "support," it's just frustration, which happens in these circumstances I guess, but all in all I "support" unhappy OWs by telling them to get out. Thanks everyone for the interesting comments. Much of this is just me talking to myself trying to figure things out because I have gone back and forth about whether to come to these boards anymore. I am one of those people that some people on here call reformed OWs, or whatever, and for a long time I felt really unwelcome here but I still needed it for support. I received a lot of help here, even the stone-throwing comments helped me because I was like, yeah, I kind of deserved that, what I'm doing is really crappy. Then I moved on and I am over my affair and all the devastation it caused me, I mean I will always regret it and feel crappy about it when I think about it but I also learned a lot from it and here I am thinking, why am I still here? Maybe we should make a board somewhere for "reformed" or "former" or "unhappy-trying-to-leave" OWs or something, ha ha, but on the other hand, I often think my perspective is helpful to those OWs on this board, like others' perspectives were once really helpful to me. Again if anyone is still reading just excuse my babble.
ladydesigner Posted May 25, 2010 Posted May 25, 2010 So true. I'm that MP. Amen. That's how I feel about my XAP. I bet yours has suffered also. It sounds like the two of you were in love. Approximately how long has it been since she spoke? Did she have children? I always wonder how two people who feel that strong connection can just not speak for an extended period of time. This is what I struggle with lately on a daily basis, but I know I need to focus on my M. I know my XOM does not want to be with me and NC has helped me distance those overwhelming emotions and anxiety. Although I do still feel deeply for him, I don't think that will ever go away. I will probably always know that I fell in love with my XOM. He would not have been a good choice for me...maybe a different time in the universe, not this lifetime anyways.
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