Author wheelwright Posted May 24, 2010 Author Posted May 24, 2010 Has your H admitted as much to you...that he didn't fully love you pre-affair? You know, sometimes I think this is what happens in many marriages. People get married because yes, they do love each other but then they quickly become complacent. Not out of meanness or spite but out of security. And so what, really, if he didn't love you fully pre-affair? Let's say this IS the case...he has paid for this 'mistake' in your relationship, you have paid for this 'mistake.' Your affair hurt both of you. So now the question is what do you want to do about it. What happened in the past, good or bad, is over. Things will never go back to the same way that they were in your marriage--and from what you describe about your pre-affair marriage, this can only be a good thing. The choice is yours. I agree with this Snowflower. And yes, H admitted that he probably didn't love me properly pre-A. Not just a complacency over time, but a lack of appreciating the things that were important to me (family, friends), and a disdain which although mild was continuous and damaging and did not come out of love. From the start. His admitting this and wanting to change makes me think things could be good. certainly better than pre-A. And I agree with other posters that an A really is not the way to deal with all this.
Snowflower Posted May 24, 2010 Posted May 24, 2010 I agree with this Snowflower. And yes, H admitted that he probably didn't love me properly pre-A. Not just a complacency over time, but a lack of appreciating the things that were important to me (family, friends), and a disdain which although mild was continuous and damaging and did not come out of love. From the start. His admitting this and wanting to change makes me think things could be good. certainly better than pre-A. And I agree with other posters that an A really is not the way to deal with all this. Interesting. And are you willing to give him another chance? I agree with Owl that a BS finding their love for their WS after an affair isn't the norm. However, it isn't exactly unheard of either. I don't want to continue this discussion here on the public forum, but please PM me if you wish to discuss it further.
MizFit Posted May 24, 2010 Posted May 24, 2010 This is one of those posts that, at first reading, incite anger. At least for me, as a former BS. The talk of sudden 'lost feelings' and (ugh) 'needs' being met smack of cruelty and selfishness. But, that's mostly because they are true. I did feel this way. I did suddenly realize what I had to lose, and didn't want to. I suddenly thought of a million things I could have, and should have done for my wife that I didn't. The knife twist is she didn't want them...at least, from me. She (although she didn't want to admit it) was in love with someone else. She said 'you're not being replaced' but yet I was; in one very important and critical way. In a very basic and primal way. But I'll remind all here that life isn't all romance and fire. This is not to say working on those things isn't important -it is- but admit it; how much is really expected? Factor in a home, kids, jobs and interests. My wife didn't demand constant romance; she wanted me to be a father, a mechanic, a cook, a masseuse, a doctor, a plumber, a carpenter, a financial advisor... ...she was swept away with new/old feelings when she met him, encouraged by a certain element of family and friends that -for whatever reason- thought she would find happiness by turning her back on the life she established with me...with us. I can say us because she didn't only leave me, but her family. She sees our two teens from time to time, but... All ancient history now. We're divorced two years ago and I've moved on. I saw her at her best and loved her, saw her at her worst and loved her still. She saw me at my best and loved me, saw me at my worst and wanted out. Is she happy? I honestly don't know. She does not look happy, but perhaps that is how I perceive it. This I do know; if a relationship extends past romance, monkey sex and the initial thrill ride you're going to experience someone stinking up the bathroom, taking out the trash and being grumpy when sick. You'll see them at their lowest. and they'll see you there too. Love -real love- exists when that person is still there when the smoke clears. How wise is it to kick that to the curb? I guess it all depends on your definition of love. Those who think love is a feeling, an emotion, will search 'till they die. Those who realize it's a decision will understand better, and ultimately (IMHO) find balance. I respect your opinion, but I will search till I die. Love to me is an emotion...it's an emotion you build on and you stay fluid with. To me it is not a decision. To me it would be similar to saying I have a day to spend any way I want...I will automatically go to the shore because that is where my heart is. If I sit and think I would end up grocery shopping and cleaning because it's what I should do. When it comes to matters of the heart I'll go with emotion and search till the day I die...deciding (I would equate that to almost forcing) to love, to me, is settling and I won't do it.
U2RockZz Posted May 25, 2010 Posted May 25, 2010 This is not true. I was faithful in my M until my recent A. During our time before M, we both had indiscretions. The story of before M is more complex. But no, I did not do what you said. This post = bad-mouthing and lies. Not just distortion. whats so good in your post that needed bad mouthing on my part.... you had an affair with your friend's husband(best friend as you call her)....you went as far as using her feelings for her H as a execuse to have an A with her H....and admitted yourself that you do not really love your H time and again....yet you are still there with him while you are questioning his love for you....now don't you think it as a load of BS...all you want is somebody to blame
Author wheelwright Posted May 25, 2010 Author Posted May 25, 2010 whats so good in your post that needed bad mouthing on my part.... you had an affair with your friend's husband(best friend as you call her)....you went as far as using her feelings for her H as a execuse to have an A with her H....and admitted yourself that you do not really love your H time and again....yet you are still there with him while you are questioning his love for you....now don't you think it as a load of BS...all you want is somebody to blame Really... Where did you get this? Before I was M my friend's H thought he had fallen in love with me. I hadn't with him, and saw his feelings as his crisis. It was a difficult situation. He kissed me a few times when I was drunk (pre my M) and I reciprocated. He kept telling me his feelings (which I saw as unreal). I did not reciprocate feelings. His W had previously kissed my then SO, my present H. It was messy. It wasn't a PA or EA (on my part). I felt bad about not being strong enough to push him away completely, but then we were friends, and my boundaries were poor at that younger pre-M age. I blame myself for that. It never developed into an A. There was no sex or emotion in that way on my part. I found it all heartbreaking. Please do not respond to my posts or threads again. You are trying to bad-mouth me, as I said. I will ask a moderator to intervene if you do not respect this. I do not like being forced to defend myself against lies. Good luck in whatever kind of crusade you think you are worthy of.
Darth Vader Posted May 26, 2010 Posted May 26, 2010 exactly what I was thinking Oh, you saw that too?
Culthbert Posted May 27, 2010 Posted May 27, 2010 Quote: a) if we want love to be the most important value? Quote: b) if we think M and commitment is? I think the original poster has some confusion in terminology here. Certainly, love should be the highest value, but I think here she means the initial "in-love" fluttery-heart feelings which are referred to by many researchers as "limerance". This initial attraction phase is known to be neurochemically based, and it is known to only last for an average of 2-3 years. When you are in limerance with someone, you are quite literally blinded to their faults. There is a physiological cause to this, but it is quite real. When the limerance wears off, you start to see your partner for who he or she really is, flaws and all. In my book, *that* is when you have real love... when you can clearly see who your spouse really is, and you make the rational choice to love them and cherish them. That is when real love can grow and develop, when a real bond can form. So, I would put the question another way... I would say, do we want limerance, the exciting feelings of new love to be the highest value, or do we want real love, the kind that takes time to grow, as the highest value. If the former, be prepared to change partners every few years.
Dexter Morgan Posted May 27, 2010 Posted May 27, 2010 Oh, you saw that too? did you also notice the immediate damage control?
Author wheelwright Posted May 27, 2010 Author Posted May 27, 2010 (edited) I haven't read the whole thread yet, so apologies up front if these points have already been made: As a BH who's W had an 11-yr VLTA (mostly long-distance), I think I know what you're wondering here, because my W wondered much the same thing. Try 2 recognize that BOTH the BS' and the WS' "love" was never what they imagined it 2 be, or their spouse was not who they imagined them 2 be before d-day. Everybody gets a painful wakeup call. The BSs may initially be very clingy and needy because they're hoping their world-view can be reconstructed. But in my view (in my case, at least), it's better left in shambles and replaced with something based on real trust (trust that is earned), rather than blind trust (simply believing that your spouse would do nothing 2 hurt you, such that you're destroyed when they do), and real love (a commitment 2 be loving) rather than chemical love (temporary infa2ation between the affairees). I remember having very strong feelings of love for my W for many months after d-day, even though she wasn't really remorseful and wouldn't end contact (though she believed she'd ended the affair before d-day, she really hadn't). With time, that unhealthy emotional attachment tends 2 fade, particularly if the WS remains firmly lost in the fog. Hopefully, it gets replaced with love-as-a-choice before the BS simply gives up and wishes the fog-bound WS a happy life away from them. It's not real. Or, let me put it this way. It's slightly more real than the alleged love between the affairees. It's more real in the sense that it's based on a well-meaning fantasy, at worst, of the life the BS thought they were living, which itself was based on the promise they made when they got married. The affairee's love, on the other hand, is a fantasy based on a lie and an unspoken, but very firmly-entrenched LACK of commitment or responsibility whatsoever. BSs may be possessive for a time after d-day, but there is also an awakening going on, rest assured. And the WS needs 2 be wary - if the BS fully awakens before the WS does, the WS may find 2 their shock and dismay that the marriage really IS over, just when they're pulling their head out of their nethers and wanting 2 "work things out." I believe so, yes. But falling in love isn't love. If there isn't a mu2ual choice 2 stay married, then this feeling will fade and the marriage will end (as it should, IMHO). ...or kick them 2 the curb? Same result, really. The BS has, at this point, recovered their self-respect and sense of self-worth. The WS? Well, the BS won't care what they do at that point. And YES, that is LOVE as a choice. It's telling the WS "You have made your choice and I have made mine. I accept your right 2 make your choice, but I don't have 2 tolerate it. I stand for honesty and integrity, so I will not tolerate an affair." You're talking about the "new love" between the affairees here? Of COURSE it's a delusion! Someday you'll realize this. Hopefully before it's 2 late. It's fear of change, at first. I didn't realize that my strong feelings of love for my W after d-day were this, but now I know that they were. They're completely gone now. And there was a period of time over the last 3 years or so when I ac2ally looked forward 2 the times when one of us would be away on travel so I could be alone. Now, real love is coming back, and it's nothing like the way I felt before and not something I can easily describe 2 you. I love my wife, but I will never be hurt like that again, because I simply can't be. This question is so full of WS fog it's not really answerable in a meaningful way. My W felt the way you're talking in this question. Truthfully, she had no idea how I felt about her while she was having her affair. And there was no way she ever could, until YEARS after the affair ended. The same is true for you, though the timing may be different, depending on the length and intensity of the affair (and the depth of the lies). Learn what love really is and then ask this question again, someday. It will take you a while 2 get there. -ol' 2long This was a brilliant response, from someone who has obviously been through it all, on the other side of the fence. And is capable of giving me meaningful advice based on experience. You really answered all my questions. Thank you. I still don't know how much I am persuaded, but I am assuredly listening to this intelligent and understanding viewpoint. I see great breadth in the evaluation. I disagree with a couple of things. I don't believe in fog. It's just a term used to describe feelings of passion and intimacy that unfortunately collide with other feelings of commitment. It doesn't depreciate the elements of love present. It is apt in another way, because the person concerned is confused about their commitment choices. That's what they are working through - perhaps badly, especially in a LTA. They don't know which way to go at this point, = fog. I also disagree that love is a choice - but of course you see that already. Some elements of it are. It cannot be forced or conjured out of nothing. It seems it can be revived after NDE. I agree I need to learn what love is. Or at least, what M love is. My H was unavailable to me throughout our courtship in terms of commitment. Until well after these famed 2/3 years. So I only really faced the flaws after we had our first child. And then they really bothered me. It's not really the flaws in him (maybe partly) - we all have them and I am a tolerant person. It's the flaws in the fit between us. I don't think H and I fell in love in the beginning. Or if we did, it was quickly ruined by an infidelity on his part. Plus another major problem in our early R which I don't want to post about. TBH, I don't think it's possible to have a prolongued infidelity if you're in love with someone else. My H and I based a R on mutual passion (which I had not experienced before, and therefore valued highly) and eventually (after 8 yrs of him wavering) on commitment. We had a lot of shared friends which provided a form of shared intimacy. But I really question this element of our R, and always have. I think I stuck with it partly because I believed mutual passion was important, partly because he's a very decent guy on the whole, and because I valued the history. I believe I am capable of learning what your post tries to teach. I do not know if it's the right thing to learn. I feel love may not be a choice, but M assuredly is. Edited May 27, 2010 by wheelwright adding
Author wheelwright Posted May 27, 2010 Author Posted May 27, 2010 ww: regarding the concepts that real love is a choice and the feeling of being in love isn't real love at all, I should just refer you to my post on jthorne's thread, where I quote M. Scott Peck's excellent "The Road Less Traveled": http://www.loveshack.org/forums/showthread.php?t=231874&page=8 Scroll down to the last post on the page, and you'll find it. Another favorite author of mine is Frank Pittman. I've read 2 of his books and some online quotes from him. He tends 2 be sarcastic at times, which can put some people off, but I think he's more knowledgeable than most, and he's very down-2-earth and direct in his writing. A favorite quote from him that I found online a few years ago was out of his book "Grow Up!: How Taking Responsibility can make you a Happy Adult". I'll see if I can find it again, and post it here if I can. The quote is about why people divorce, and he's taking issue with a prominent psychologist who seemed 2 be implying that divorce is somehow some "modern" choice that shouldn't overly concern anybody. -ol' 2long I went to thread. Liked this: 'They could just as truthfully say 2 the AP: "I'm in love with you but I don't love you." But, though equally accurate, that would kind of spoil the moment, rather than invigorate it.' In fact, I REALLY like this quote from you. It's how my xMOM felt about me. And it explains a few things. Will follow up on the reading too. Thanks for pointers. If I can be persuaded of all this, I'll eat my hat. The linen one would probably make a passable meal.
Darth Vader Posted May 27, 2010 Posted May 27, 2010 (edited) did you also notice the immediate damage control? If I recall correctly, it was in between all the blameshifting and all the justification of her straddling and riding and orgasming by another man. This woman clearly has no remorse(by her attitude), she hasn't faced any consequences for her actions, therefore, she'll do it again! I've seen this over and over. I really feel for her poor hubby though, I hope he wakes up soon! Edited May 27, 2010 by Darth Vader
Darth Vader Posted May 27, 2010 Posted May 27, 2010 Darth: I think she's learning something. I'm also certain that, sooner or later, her H is going 2 come fully awake and make his own choices for himself. Hopefully, they'll reach their respective objectives at the same time or thereabouts. -ol' 2long I certainly hope so, it's her attitude that's a turn off to me! It just comes right off the screen, I'm sure that you can see it as well..... BTW, I like your posting #64, really hits it on the head! That is how cheaters justify their cheating, even in the best marriages where nothing is going wrong! I feel for ya, Man!
Author wheelwright Posted May 27, 2010 Author Posted May 27, 2010 If I recall correctly, it was in between all the blameshifting and all the justification of her straddling and riding and orgasming by another man. This woman clearly has no remorse(by her attitude), she hasn't faced any consequences for her actions, therefore, she'll do it again! I've seen this over and over. I really feel for her poor hubby though, I hope he wakes up soon! I feel remorse. I don't like to cause pain. Ipsi facto. Blameshifting for you = being bothered to work things out for me. Some people move on not questioning, not trying to work out what love is, trying to say they had no love for their AP. IMHO this is about facing my future in honesty. I tell my H all. He knows. All my difficult emotions. All his. I feel for my H too. One point we can agree on. I wonder if there is a different success rate for people who are honest and admit they are still unsure after an A, and those who lie and say they are totally over it. This thread was not opened as blameshifting. It was sincere. Were your and Dexter's responses meant in the same vein? I was asking for views. Seems honest enough. But no, apparently I was setting up my question here in order to blame my H for my A. Or to blame him for whatever you think I am doing that about. If that was my main aim, I could do better than to come to LS. I am pretty honest when I post here. I am pretty honest in my M. But it's not how bad I've been that interests me. It's why, and how to make it better.
Author wheelwright Posted May 27, 2010 Author Posted May 27, 2010 One additional thought. When I discovered my wife's affair 8.5 years ago, I was clingy and needy, and overwhelmed by feelings of "loss love", as you called it. But I was equally swimming in memories of our courtship and early marriage, and wondered out loud many times "how did things get so bad? What happened?" My wife experienced the same in love feelings for me as I did for her during the early years 2gether, of that I'm absolutely certain. But she remembered it very differently after d-day (really, after the start of her affair). She proclaimed 2 me after d-day that she never really loved me, that I pressured her 2 marry me, and that RM was the first person she was really attracted 2, and 'shouldn't that matter?' (yes, but not the way she thought it should). You see, i knew all that was untrue. Another example: One night, a few months after d-day, we were in bed falling asleep, and I started gently stroking her hair and back 2 help her relax. She said "I hate it when you do that!", 2 which I replied "No you don't." And she thought a bit and ac2ally admitted that I was right. I'd been doing that all through our marriage. She only thought she hated it because she needed 2 rationalize herself out of the guilt for what she'd done. She still has a hard time accepting responsibility for the affair and the consequences of it, though she's been improving. All waywards rewrite their marital his2ry. All of them. My point with all this is that, even if I didn't fully understand what kind of love I had for my wife, it is pretty clear that I always loved her - heck, we were married for about 15 years before the affair started, and my wife has admitted several times that "it was pretty good for the first 15 years". When she became attracted 2 RM, who she shared an office in grad school with and so was around daily, even more time than we spent 2gether, she sought, and quickly found, reasons 2 justify the affair. -ol' 2long What you are saying is helping me think about this. I feel terrible, because although I have heard this stuff before, none of it persuaded me. Suddenly I am beginning to be persuaded. Perhaps I am lucky that how you speak speaks to me in a way I understand. When I am ready to hear. The bolded part is right for me too. I will ask a partly devil's advocate question now. Why should we endeavour to save a M? (A love that has grown old and stale and unworkable, if possible to revive). Why bother to get it back and not move on? Why did you? Is it about the alternative? Is there some deep soul reason for it?
2long Posted May 27, 2010 Posted May 27, 2010 What you are saying is helping me think about this. I feel terrible, because although I have heard this stuff before, none of it persuaded me. Suddenly I am beginning to be persuaded. Perhaps I am lucky that how you speak speaks to me in a way I understand. When I am ready to hear. The bolded part is right for me too. Try this experiment, then: Pay attention 2 your H's loving actions for a while. Accept and try not 2 be 2 affected by his negative reactions, and acknowledge they come from a place of hurt. I bet you'll find he does things like I described and you bolded. Think about what these little acts mean 2 him and you. I will ask a partly devil's advocate question now. Why should we endeavour to save a M? Do you have kids? There's one gigantic reason right there. Do you want 2 learn from your mistakes? Easier if you have someone you have a his2ry with and who cares about you and wants 2 learn along with you. If you haven't been married long, are young, and you have no kids, then honestly I'd recommend divorce, particularly since your husband now knows about the affair and you still haven't ended it. Personal recovery will always still be necessary for both of you, but the process might be easier and quicker for him if he cuts his losses and starts over in his own time, while you take all the time in the world 2 decide what you want 2 do about the affair. He will quickly learn there's an important difference between loneliness and soli2de. I really enjoy soli2de. And I'd much rather be alone if my wife wanted 2 have an affair. (A love that has grown old and stale and unworkable, if possible to revive). I don't think real love grows old and stale. The feeling of being in love definitely does, though. And when it does, what's left behind? In a long-term marriage, there's real love after the infa2ation wears off. In an affair? There isn't even "real life" after the infa2ation wears off, because the affair was all about sneaking around and grabbing moments alone. When you no longer have 2 lead that kind of relationship, what will you do? I realize that there are many people on LS that have no problem living with a cheater, or even being one. But I don't think you're one of those. Why bother to get it back and not move on? As I think I said, if there is another affair, I will not stay married. Why did you? Is it about the alternative? Is there some deep soul reason for it? I stayed married because we had been married over 26 years by d-day, and we have 2 kids, a 2ple of houses, and a cat 2gether. The ac2al circumstances around d-day were particularly trying. We had just had a major house fire in our historic home, and we were living in temporary replacement rental housing when I literally stumbled across the emails between my wife and RM. She never left me 2 be with him, only saw him on business trips out of state (they work in the same field). Some of the emails clearly supported her claim that she had ended the PA and was trying 2 "limit" the contact, though she had hired him as a consultant on a project she was in charge of. They had only been physical on 2 occasions when the affair, which had been dormant since 1995, restarted in 2000, and only on one of those had they had sex. I'm pretty sure that, if she were having a "full-blown" PA at that time, I would have been long-divorced by now, and likely quite happy. In spite of many folks on marriagebuilders accusing me of tolerating her affair or being a cuckold, I am probably more like those here who would bail immediately if she were 2 leave 2 be with her affair partner. I'm not religious, and I no longer believe in "soul mates", if that's what you're asking. I do believe that my wife and RM were @$$holemates, however, as are all affairees. Sorry if that's harsh! -ol' 2long
PhoenixRise Posted May 27, 2010 Posted May 27, 2010 (edited) 2long I have been following your posts in this thread and I think @$$holemates just might be my most favorite new word ever. Edited May 27, 2010 by PhoenixRise
Darth Vader Posted May 28, 2010 Posted May 28, 2010 (edited) I feel remorse. I don't like to cause pain. Ipsi facto. Blameshifting for you = being bothered to work things out for me. Some people move on not questioning, not trying to work out what love is, trying to say they had no love for their AP. IMHO this is about facing my future in honesty. I tell my H all. He knows. All my difficult emotions. All his. I feel for my H too. One point we can agree on. I wonder if there is a different success rate for people who are honest and admit they are still unsure after an A, and those who lie and say they are totally over it. This thread was not opened as blameshifting. It was sincere. Were your and Dexter's responses meant in the same vein? I was asking for views. Seems honest enough. But no, apparently I was setting up my question here in order to blame my H for my A. Or to blame him for whatever you think I am doing that about. If that was my main aim, I could do better than to come to LS. I am pretty honest when I post here. I am pretty honest in my M. But it's not how bad I've been that interests me. It's why, and how to make it better. I don't get the bolded part. Is it a bother to work things out with your husband? Is that what you meant? If so, your husband will come to realize it, and when he does, it's over! Edited May 28, 2010 by Darth Vader
ComputerJock Posted May 28, 2010 Posted May 28, 2010 2long can you direct me to the thread where you started, how you got over, no, through the affair. Someone mentioned a post #64. Thanks, I have issues and want to deal with them.
ComputerJock Posted May 28, 2010 Posted May 28, 2010 I asked WW about that if he read her posts and if he would posts. I think she replied on another site on LS. It would be interesting (healing) if both wondering spouse and betrayed spouse would post together and get input from those with the same experience. Maybe there should be a site for dual posting. Do you think that would be useful? Maybe if there was a site where spouses could post to each other without having to go face to face, I would hope this would make marriages stronger. Isn't there a sonh about a guy that places a wanted ad to meet with a stranger and she turns out to be his wife? CJ
ComputerJock Posted May 28, 2010 Posted May 28, 2010 Thanks for pointing me to marriagebuilders. It is another source of advice.
reboot Posted May 28, 2010 Posted May 28, 2010 Thanks for pointing me to marriagebuilders. It is another source of advice. The marriagebuilders site itself has some very good reading material. Excerpts from Dr Harleys books and other articles by him. The marriagebuilders forum, however, is nothing like LS. Most of the advice offered there seems tailored towards getting one to buy something. And they do not like dissension in the ranks. Just a small word of warning.
ComputerJock Posted May 28, 2010 Posted May 28, 2010 Thanks for the advice, will look out for sales pitches.
Spark1111 Posted May 28, 2010 Posted May 28, 2010 Thanks for the advice, will look out for sales pitches. Just as I was directed to LS by "googling OW," I was also directed to Surviving Infidelity by googling Wayward Spouse. They have a forum there for only Wayward Spouses to post on, and it helped and alerted me to the stages my fWS would also go through.
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