Scrybe Posted May 25, 2010 Posted May 25, 2010 lonestar190 - You are by far teh most sane, rationale person I have ever read on LS. Seriously. I'm used to all the extreme conclusions people come to based on flimsy evidence at best and none as usual. Very few people actualy READ what the OP has written and take the time to think about his/her problem outside of their own realm of experience. I could have written the same response! You're like my LS twin brother! And thanks to you I won't need to responds to some of the outrageous conclusions people have drawn. Again, there really isn't enough evidence to say so. And she wasn't out alone. She got drunk. Thats all we know. She was cognitive enough to let her husband know where she was and what she was doing. We know she has been drunk in the past. But so have I. Looking at what the OP has actually said about her drinking: No past history of doing something so stupud They both go out drinking with co-workers. Taken to the limit is how the OP describes his own drinking. She has been out drinking before and it was not an issue then. She got sick. Some people get sick from drinking easier than others. There is no indication here how often it happens or that the OP had any issues with it in the past. No indication she was hiding it either. Never been discussed as an issue. Complete willingness to remove the drinking if it is a problem in the relationship. Sorry, the story points to a couple that, up to this point, were okay with the other spouse going out and drinking. When it became an issue, the W agreed to stop and admitted it might not be the best choice. Further, there is no indication that it is happening on a weekly basis. Just that it has happened before. I can remember several times that my current gf was sick from drinking, once without me. But it wasn't every weekend. As a poster said earlier, probably not so much a drinking problem but instead just immaturity. I play softball 2-3 times a week, but I don't have a softball problem, and it if started to effect my relationship, I could give it up. A drinking problem generally involves hiding, inability to control, denial of an issue, and resistance to changing of behavior. None of that is present here.
Scrybe Posted May 25, 2010 Posted May 25, 2010 I lied. I had to respond to this. I'm confused myself. lonestar nor the OP are condoning her behavior. What I don't understand is why there needs to be more action taken than what was discussed. A. Wife calls and let's him know what happened. He expresses his feelings about the matter. She agrees that she made a bad decision and further agrees to discuss it further upon her return. B. Wife and Husband talk at length and in detail about what happened. Without being there H will never know the 100% truth but decides that he has no reason not to trust her. Why? Because SHE HAS NEVER DONE ANYTHING LIKE THIS BEFORE. That's why. C. Husband and wife agree to some changes going forward and she essentially get's a second chance. I want to point out that neither the OP, the wife or lonestar is "condoning" anything. I agree with lonestar that a wife or husband going out drinking does not automatically equal cheating. ESPECIALLY for a spouse who has never done anything to garner suspicion before. What more can be done other than chaining her to the bed or having her followed 24/7? I think many people's attituded here has been extreme for a first offense...especially one in which she seems guilty of bad judgement but nothing else. COULD she have lied and cheated? Of course....but the possibilities exists in EVERY marriage. We can't live our lives assuming someone is cheating no matter what. So it's possible...is it probable? The OP knows her infinitely more than any of us and he made the call that it's not probable. So why all the screaming that he's being "naive"? Seriously? The guy is rationale, understanding and forgiving. He's set boundaries for himself as to what he can and cannot accept, has communicated clearly and openly with his wife and is working hard to maintain a trusting relationship with her. Why oh why is that so wrong? lonestar - i am confused as to why you are so adamantly supportive of her bad behavior. she may or may not have cheated - but the behavior alone raises a number of red flags that you have overlooked. the fact remains that the behavior sends out the wrong message to the guy she was with that night - and makes it appear that she's willing to be disrespectful and disregarding of the OP's relationship for the evening... just to be with the guy she went out with. this is not a situation that should be encouraged by discounting what she did - why are you so willing to defend such behavior when it only causes hurt, pain and questions to the OP?
Church Bells Posted May 25, 2010 Posted May 25, 2010 The guy is rationale, understanding and forgiving. He's set boundaries for himself as to what he can and cannot accept, has communicated clearly and openly with his wife and is working hard to maintain a trusting relationship with her. Why oh why is that so wrong? Let me offer up some perspective from a BH, whose own situation probably more closely mirrors ss1's than anyone who has posted to this thread so far. Unfortunately, what we are seeing is a situation that plays out all too often, whereby a BH panics ... usually for good reason ... and then is gaslighted into believing that nothing really went on ... it was all just a misunderstanding and/or poor judgment ... and he goes along because it is simply tooooo painful to contemplate the obvious alternative. Let's not forget that just 6 short days ago ... ss1 felt in his gut that something was wrong enough to reach out and seek advice from an online "INFIDELITY" forum ... so CLEARLY he felt threatened enough about the possibility of his W's infidelity to actively seek out information from others who have experienced the same circumstances. Go back and re-read his early posts where he is basically agreeing that "something" inappropriate occurred ... right up to the point of him actually talking to his W ... then his attitude changes ... but because of WHAT? GRANTED there is one very positive sign in all of this from his W ... she brought this up to ss1 on her own and she seems to acknowledge her "bad judgment" ... but the cold hard fact remains ... she met another man for drinks and wound up spending the night in his hotel room. Also, when you wade through all of these posts suggesting possible actions for ss1 to take ... all that seems to have changed after their confrontation is that his W now has verbally agreed to watch her drinking on business trips. Apparently, there was no mention of: 1. ss1 attempting to confirm her story with the two female co-workers or the sales guy. 2. W being still free to socialize with this sales guy or any other out of town business acquaintance because "she has never done anything like this before" ... to which my response would be "Well, she has NOW". 3. "extraordinary precautions" being put in place to insure that this doesn't happen again, such as we implemented and I posted previously. Basically, ss1 has just "taken her word for it", and for us fellow BH's, we have learned what the word of a wayward wife is worth. So we find ourselves back where we started 6 days ago wondering if ss1 has anywhere near the "whole story". BH's all over regret not taking action when that first hint of infidelity crept into their M's, and make no mistake about it ... "infidelity" has now crept into ss1's M ... it may have not gone physical or even emotional at this point ... but BOUNDARIES have been crossed WITHOUT consequence ... and their relationship has suffered because of it. It's one thing to be completely unaware of something ... its quite different when you know "something" innapropriate occurred and you don't feel comfortable that you know the "whole story".
lonestar190 Posted May 25, 2010 Posted May 25, 2010 Let me offer up some perspective from a BH, whose own situation probably more closely mirrors ss1's than anyone who has posted to this thread so far. I respond to this not because I want this thread to keep going but more because I think it is important to respond to a few of the things you are saying. Unfortunately, what we are seeing is a situation that plays out all too often, whereby a BH panics ... usually for good reason ... and then is gaslighted into believing that nothing really went on ... it was all just a misunderstanding and/or poor judgment ... and he goes along because it is simply tooooo painful to contemplate the obvious alternative. Let's not forget that just 6 short days ago ... ss1 felt in his gut that something was wrong enough to reach out and seek advice from an online "INFIDELITY" forum ... so CLEARLY he felt threatened enough about the possibility of his W's infidelity to actively seek out information from others who have experienced the same circumstances. Note how you state that the situation is what you think it is as if it were fact. I am sorry you were burned under similar circumstances. Yes, the OP did feel something was wrong, but not while the W was around him. He wasn't picking up subtle signs from her behavior, because she wasn't there. I have a very overactive imagination. When my gf is not around, I can sometimes let things take over such that I can think of all sorts of things that may be happening. I can get to the point where I rationalize that it must be happening. Then, when everything is done with, and she and I talk, I look at how silly I was. Sounds like the OP got a little information and imagined what could be going on. Intelligently, he went to others for advice rather than blowing up at his W. Go back and re-read his early posts where he is basically agreeing that "something" inappropriate occurred ... right up to the point of him actually talking to his W ... then his attitude changes ... but because of WHAT? All those subtle clues I mentioned before did not exist. She was being honest and thus it came across as such. but the cold hard fact remains ... she met another man for drinks and wound up spending the night in his hotel room I am an attorney and I do this all the time. Word the facts to support what I am saying. But bolding it doesn't make it more true. The fact that we are working off of is actually: She and two girlfriends met a guy they knew well and all of them spent the night in his room. I know, it doesn't sound so bad as what you wrote. But then, you don't want to address the possibilities that she didn't initiate contact with the guy, it may not have been her idea to go to his room, and she may have just not wanted to try to get home alone. Maybe you are the guy who would tell your wife that you don't care that she is in a foreign city, not sure where she is, intoxicated, and that its 2:30 a.m. Damn it, get a cab! They are safe as anything. Travelling alone? Doesn't matter, cabs are great!! I do note that the OP said his W's hotel room was a block or two away, although in some cities that can be a ways. Especially if the W is not sure where she is. Walking alone even a few blocks at 2 a.m. as a women is usually not a first choice. I would not want my gf doing this alone in a strange city, but then I trust her, and value her safety over my insecurities. all that seems to have changed after their confrontation is that his W now has verbally agreed to watch her drinking on business trips. Verbally? Were you looking for a sworn affidavit? Swear on a bible? You should maybe take your own advice and go back and re-read posts. Here, I'll help you out. (Specifically note the last sentence - no problem with him discussing it with ALL the parties involved) In fact she disclosed to me all the individuals involved including the male that was involved. I know him very well and his wife very well and he also said it was a complete lack of good judgment. We have agree mutually that no matter the situation that you return to your hotel room or bed by yourself. She also stated that no text messages anymore and an open call to the other is appropriate to settle the feelings that she has put in me because of the situation, understanding that it is only human to feel concern. My wife has agreed to help in every area as I stated. She came clean with everyone involved, and I know where each is. They know me very well and know that I can make their life difficult if I felt was necessary. She was remorseful for the situation and knows it was really stupid on her part, and had no issue with me discussing the issue around any of the parties involved. Back to you now we have learned what the word of a wayward wife is worth. So we find ourselves back where we started 6 days ago wondering if ss1 has anywhere near the "whole story". You think she is a wayward wife, I hope some day you learn what the word of a faithful wife is worth. And "we" don't find ourselves back in that situation. It seems to be you in that boat now. OP isn't there anymore. "infidelity" has now crept into ss1's M ... it may have not gone physical or even emotional at this point ... but BOUNDARIES have been crossed WITHOUT consequence ... and their relationship has suffered because of it. Again, these boundaries were not in place and are yours, not the OP's relationship. And it sounds like the relationship is better for it as it fostered open communication. If its not physical and not emotional what is it? Imaginary? Ah....got it. Lets look at your posts to see how rational you are with this: I think you are putting too much value in what his W "says" ... from my perspective, the mini-bar portion of her story was just an excuse to "minimize" her involvement. If Blindsided (and others) are correct ... there was likely NO mini-bar ... there were likely NO female co-workers present ... she likely did NOT sleep on the sofa bed. These were just concocted out of her imagination to "minimize" what she was REALLY doing. Whose imagination is running wild here? I believe I would establish a personal boundary for you and your W that NEITHER of you will have any further contact FOR LIFE with this guy or his W going forward. Your W needs to understand that there are consequences for a "complete lack of good judgment". Overreact much? For life? A good friend cut off completely? I recommend getting a gps device installed in her wrist as well. Phone calls every 30 min. Scratch that, she doesn't go out of town anymore ever, for life. Home at 5:30 every day as well. No social events where alcohol could be present, ever. I hope the above means that you are at least going to insist on some "extraordinary precautions" ... I gave you some good ones. If you need more let me know. If you have a W, she must walk on eggshells, wait, nevermind, I found yours: I get a full itinerary of her flight, car rental, hotel, meeting times and places, etc. prior to her departure.She calls me as soon as she reaches her hotel room with the direct number to the hotel and her room number, plus I have the full right to call her at any time (even in the middle of the night) to make sure she is where she is supposed to be.She is no longer able to go out drinking with co-workers ... NO EXCEPTIONS male or female or in a group.She can have up to 2 alcoholic beverages at COMPANY dinners that REQUIRE her attendance.There is one female co-worker (Thelma to her Louise) partner in crime that she is no longer allowed to socialize with in any manner ... ONLY business communication and ONLY when absolutely necessary, which has been ZERO for the past 2.5 years. They don't even sit together at company functions. My question is whether you will ever let this list go? And if not, when does the problem switch to being about you? Apologize to readers for the length of the post. Slow day at work.
Snowflower Posted May 25, 2010 Posted May 25, 2010 Unfortunately, none of us know the true story. It could be closer to one poster's version here or it could be closer to another version presented here or it could be exactly as the OP told it. A little caution though...since we don't know the whole story we can't assume anything. OP, good luck to you. I hope your wife is able to explain what happened to your satisfaction. It will be a good time to revisit boundaries and what is acceptable to you and your wife in your marriage.
Scrybe Posted May 25, 2010 Posted May 25, 2010 Church, Okay…so Lonestar pretty much covered it in way more detail and patience than I could so I'll just comment in broad strokes. -Most of your logic/argument is built on a fact that the W was unfaithful. No such fact exists. You also giving the OP your opinion based on "facts" that never came from the OP.(e.g. W met a man for drinks and spent the night with him). Based on what the OP said and what his W said that just didn't happen. She came back to a hotel room with 2 other females and a male co-worker. All them know each other very well and know the OP. She slept on the couch with another female and not once did she say she was alone with the man. She allowed the OP to interview (if he wished) all parties involved to confirm. So based on what the OP has written all parties involved (including himself) don't believe anything happened other than what she reported. -You also argue that even if nothing happened (which you don't believe) other than what W reported - the OP should take extraordinary measures to prevent something from happening. Really? So…she's likely innocent but since you are suspicious this guy should attempt to completely control and monitor his wife's every move? So in a nutshell if she might be guilty she is. If she's not then lock her up so she won’t ever be? Is that about right? You may disagree but I think trust is a valuable and integral key to a fullfilling relationship. As you stated before someone obviously violated your trust once and I feel for you on that. But you just can't control another adult human being that way. If a W or a H is going to cheat…they are going cheat and there is nothing we can do about it. Let me clarify. We can try and maintain a healthy, loving & trusting relationship and do our part to be good partners but sometimes it's just not good enough. Same thing with children. You can raise them the best way you can but when they grow up they will do what they will do. It's called being an adult. You have to have faith in there inherent goodness and the positive impact you have on them not to mention the examples you set. Personally I would want a woman to be loyal to me because she wants to …not because she has her loyalty scheduled in by me. Who knows…maybe the way you handle things brings happiness to you and your wife but it sounds like you are projecting your fears and insecurities to another man here who still has faith and trust in the woman he loves. Why try to ruin that? Why paint him as a fool for being mature, responsible, level headed, sincere, secure, trusting and loving. I love my wife dearly and trust her. If she cheated it would devastate me. That's just a risk I'm willing to take because she's earned my trust and respect. I love living my life having faith that she is loyal to me. I would hate my life if I lived in fear of her betrayal on a daily basis. I'd rather call it quits and move on. Just my humble opinion.
lonestar190 Posted May 25, 2010 Posted May 25, 2010 Blind, It is clear that no matter how she reacted you would find a way to make her guilty. Had she refused to change she would be seen as having a partying problem and putting others before her relationship. But she is willing to change and be understanding and she is doing it too easily? Seriously, how is she supposed to react if she had not cheated? She admitted she made a poor decision, is sorry for it, and agrees to prevent it from happening again. What are you looking for in people? This is about as ideal as it gets. I don't know you well at all, but it seems like whatever issues you have are making you focus so strongly in on her cheating that you would mold any facts to back up your position. Please seek help on this. -She told her H she spent the night in another guys room without being asked. -H indicated he never inquires so she wouldn't have needed to tell him. -She gave all the names and told her H it was fine to talk to them. -She agreed it was an uncomfortable situation and agreed to not let it happen again. And the story gels just fine. As you said, it was a party crash, not terribly uncommon. If you can explain what would be different from an inoccent W who had gone through the same situation, by all means. But I bet you can't.
Snowflower Posted May 25, 2010 Posted May 25, 2010 This is one of the realities of posting on an open forum like this...you get all sides. AND replies from posters who are still trying to work through their own issues when presented with a similar situation which reminds them of their painful experience. It's projecting at its worst. OP, I hope that everything is as your wife said it was. No one here has any way of knowing this and neither do you actually. OP, what is your gut instinct about what happened? Can you accept the fact that you might never know for sure? And guys, let's cut the OP's wife a little slack. None of us know what really happened and she is not our WS. This thread is not our painful situation. Everyone and everything is unique. The OP's wife did exactly what is always preached about here on LS ..come clean about your bad decision (whatever it is) and tell your spouse immediately. The OP's wife did this. Is there more to the story? We don't know. We can only assume and we all know what they say about assumptions... OP, I hope you found the answers you needed.
Author ss1 Posted May 26, 2010 Author Posted May 26, 2010 All (apologize for length, but necessary); I find all the posts interesting and they provide many perspectives to look at. What I have found using this forum is that it confirms that we all struggle with this topic. Let me give you all a little background of myself. This is my second marriage, my first blew up in my face based upon infidelity, lack of trust (on both sides), and a wife that need to live a single life. We married at nineteen years old and had two children. I was married for eleven years. The divorce was a very painful situation and she wanted me to have no involvement with our children. After many claims of abuse on her part to leverage on obtaining custody of the children, I eventually won in the custody battle, won the marital home, and basically won the case, but I live a continual nightmare with my ex-wife as she is still so very bitter. She is bitter either from losing, or wishing she had taken a different approach as it relates to our relationship, etc. During all this I went through much counseling, and men's groups (which I highly recommend); to get a better idea of how I react to situation and woman. Instead of looking outward at my ex-wifes bad decisions and continuing to develop hatred I spent the time looking inward. What did I do to not develop the relationship, make her want to find outside stimulation, and ensure I could be the best father possible as none of us are perfect. Relationships need to be fed continually; on both sides. So some of you say I am being naive but I think just the opposite to that. I am not naive and I am not dismissing my feelings. I am just keeping everything in check. Lets look at the situation. Based upon my feelings; "Am I getting the whole story I have concern that what I have been told isn't the entire truth" this being the worst case situation and my ultimate fear. I have to acknowledge that fear and address it through appropriate channels and most importantly; TIME! I feel we; men; want to resolve issues over night so we can move on. Unfortunately we; people; don't work that way. I came to this forum to get all perspectives knowing that I would get really good extreme; (she cheated); to nothing happened I am over reacting. I have taken everything you all have stated and I am digesting. We can't live our lives walking on eggshells or we will always question ourself and our partner. You have to accept your limits and move forward. If those limits are reach you address it openly with your partner and make that painful decision to move on for your health or remain for your health. You have to give your partner the knowledge that; yes you don't accept the circumstances of the situation and they hurt you badly, but if again your limits haven't been reached, be the better person and say I trust you as you haven't given me a reason in the past to not trust you. BUT; now that this has happen please understand that for a while (while can't be determined, just some time) we both need to make sure we reassure one another through changing how the two handle a similar situation to provide a level of comfort for yourself and your partner. Why your partner you ask? Well think about it; if she didn't or did something she may presume you would do something in retaliation; if they did what they did even an innocent mistake they will hold that pain of how they hurt you and project it on you causing strain in the relationship. If my wife is cheating then that is bad and it will surface, but at the same time I have to look at what is driving her to take make this decision. I didn't meet a need she had in our relationship because I didn't properly focus on the relationship. That is why I never stop looking at how I can improve myself. If it is out of my control and I can't provide to her what she needs then we both made a big mistake in getting married and we must accept the results and move on. In this case I don't think that she cheated. I will say that some of the responses and recommendations do borderline on abuse. If you read into some of them the theme is control, monitor, track. In your mind you may feel this is the right approach, but it just isn't the right. In some states this maybe acceptable but in many it is actually illegal or borderline illegal, for example the one I am in. Now if your partner is willing to provide information to help reassure you her sincerity, give you both that level of comfort that may be required then these are all good signs that they are willing to make those steps. Eventually if they are cheating or meeting/exceeding your limits then they will naturally resist at a point and the only avenue left for you is counseling and potentially major decision to move on. I am not ignorant. I chose to take it slowly and evaluate the ramification of all my decisions both to my W, her co-workers, my co-workers, my reputation and her reputation. I know some of you have been burned in the past, and remember I have too; in the past. Every situation is unique and should be handled different. All the information factual, speculative, and assumed should be taken into consideration. I have had the same attorney for 9 years whom is a registered counselor as well. We have looked a divorce and how broken the system is. We all should be looking at a way to improve the system to be a healing process and not a war zone. The courts are busy but they still don't need to be a turnstile and have little regard to the human side of divorce; specially when children are involved. Kind regards all.
Scrybe Posted May 26, 2010 Posted May 26, 2010 "Sorry....WHEN YOU ARE DRUNK IN SOMEONE ELSE'S HOTEL ROOM >>>>YOU ARE GUILTY UNTIL PROVEN INNOCENT." Seriously? Guilty until proven innocent? "It's not like we are terribly off base here. What actually DISPROVES she had sex with the salesman? " Ah...what about the fact that the OP has or will speak to everyone involved and so far has found no conflicts in her story? What other proof is there short of traveling back in time or hooking her up to a lie detector. If guilty until proven innocent is your stance then I see that Lonestar, myself and the OP are wasting our time. Speaking of the OP - Well done on your last post. I think you've got what you needed here. I really hope this was just a mild speed bump in your relationship. Now knowing that you've been cheated on before gives me a lot of respect for you handling it the way you have.
Church Bells Posted May 27, 2010 Posted May 27, 2010 "Sorry....WHEN YOU ARE DRUNK IN SOMEONE ELSE'S HOTEL ROOM >>>>YOU ARE GUILTY UNTIL PROVEN INNOCENT." Seriously? Guilty until proven innocent? Just two points of clarification ... I happen to agree that this is the proper response given the situation at hand. All that we really know is that ss1's W spent the night drunk in another man's hotel room. The rest of the story is suspect until confirmed ... so YES ... guilty until proven innocent should be the standard of proof for any WW in this situation. Ah...what about the fact that the OP has or will speak to everyone involved and so far has found no conflicts in her story? There has been NO evidence that ss1 has spoken to either of the two female co-workers or the sales guy. He has been asked and not answered on at least two occassions, but has only indicted that he knows who they are, their reputations, and that he can contact them. Even if everything is as his W has stated ... at a minimum ... ss1 should speak to sales guy's W and make it clear to his own W that sales guy is now off limits for drinks and socializing in the future. Simple consequences of bad judgments.
You Go Girl Posted May 27, 2010 Posted May 27, 2010 I just read this entire thread. ss1---I think you are handling this with tact. Your wife has given you no reason to suspect the evening went down any other way than what she has told you. I am remembering a few times that I was out drinking, and had too much, at near the same age as the wife here. These were with co-workers or good friends out of town. On a couple occasions, I drank to the point of either getting sick or having to lay down and then passed out. I did NOT have a drinking problem. I simply wasn't very good at handling alcohol, and knowing when to quit drinking for the evening. When a woman such as myself or the OP's wife is very drunk, more than they intended, a couple blocks in a cab can seem like a ride through eternity, whereas a couch one foot away looks awfully inviting when so drunk that one needs to pass out immediately. Very drunk women don't want sex. All they want is to go to sleep immediately.
lonestar190 Posted May 27, 2010 Posted May 27, 2010 Just two points of clarification ... I happen to agree that this is the proper response given the situation at hand. All that we really know is that ss1's W spent the night drunk in another man's hotel room. The rest of the story is suspect until confirmed ... so YES ... guilty until proven innocent should be the standard of proof for any WW in this situation. 2 quick things on this Church, to point out your blinders. 1. You have decided that everything in her story is suspect, EXCEPT the fact that she spent the night drunk in another man's hotel room. Why is this not suspect. Why do you decide that the only fact that helps your decision that she cheated is not suspect? Why is this a fact that we know for sure? It seems to me that the entire story is suspect, and thus she may have not spent the night in another man's hotel room. Heck, she may have made it back to her hotel and just said that to make her H pay a little more attention. Given his ambivalence to her going out in the past, maybe she was feeling uncared for and thought she would plant the seed of jealousy to make her husband pay more attention. Its as believable as her cheating. 2. Further, I do agree tha guilty until proven inoccent should be the standard of proof for any WW in this situation. But she is not a WW. You set the standard based on your conclusion, rather than the other way around. You decided she is a WW rather than starting from the point of her being a faithful spouse with no history of wrongdoing. Its the proper response for you because you have a WW. Your inablility to remember what it is like to trust is truely saddening. Good luck Church in your relationship, but please seek personal counseling to address your trust issues. 3 years past Dday it is time to start giving the trust back or move on. It must be very difficult to live like that.
Author ss1 Posted May 27, 2010 Author Posted May 27, 2010 **UPDATE** I felt that I should provide appropriate updates for you all, as if I ever do need additional insight in the future that this could help.. 1.) Wife and I are going to counseling today, she agreed it would be good for us and the family. Not because of the past situation but it will be included. 2.) Spoke to male co-worker, he apologized and stated it was very poor judgement on his part. 3.) Spoke to female co-worker (not other), she mentioned what happen on the hush hush as it was very embarrassing for her and quite stupid. 4.) Wife has mentioned she will not be spending time out with male co-worker again as his judgement as well hers was questionable and not appropriate for company, marriages, and reputations. More to come after counseling, note we will cover more then just this incident. Lonestar190: I am taken back by your comment; ambivalence to her going out in past; I am not ambivalent. She shares with me what she is doing as I do with her. I didn't seek out the information as I had no reason to distrust her, now after this event; and she knows; I am more alert and trust has been damaged a bit, but again I will be calm and collected on how I approach it.
reboot Posted May 27, 2010 Posted May 27, 2010 ss1, you're a lot more level headed than a lot of the people attempting to give you advice. I think you're handling it just fine. Good luck.
lonestar190 Posted May 27, 2010 Posted May 27, 2010 **UPDATE** I felt that I should provide appropriate updates for you all, as if I ever do need additional insight in the future that this could help.. 1.) Wife and I are going to counseling today, she agreed it would be good for us and the family. Not because of the past situation but it will be included. 2.) Spoke to male co-worker, he apologized and stated it was very poor judgement on his part. 3.) Spoke to female co-worker (not other), she mentioned what happen on the hush hush as it was very embarrassing for her and quite stupid. 4.) Wife has mentioned she will not be spending time out with male co-worker again as his judgement as well hers was questionable and not appropriate for company, marriages, and reputations. More to come after counseling, note we will cover more then just this incident. Lonestar190: I am taken back by your comment; ambivalence to her going out in past; I am not ambivalent. She shares with me what she is doing as I do with her. I didn't seek out the information as I had no reason to distrust her, now after this event; and she knows; I am more alert and trust has been damaged a bit, but again I will be calm and collected on how I approach it. Sounds great. I apologize if that came off wrong. What I meant is that up till now you had not been upset bout her drinking, nor had you followed up or shown jealousy about her being out with friends. (Which I think is great. It was not meant as a negative) Some women want their SO to show some jealousy and/or try to hold them back a bit. These women take it as a sign that the H has some worry about losing them and will take the attitude of allowing them to do as they please as a sign that the H does not care. These women need the constant show of attention. I have dated one. She used to tell me when guys hit on her to try to make me more protective or show that I was jealous. Sometimes it worked. I am sure that on more than one occassion my ex embelished the events to further this emotional need. Don't think it is what your W did, but it was an alternative possibility. More I was using it as a point to show that Church was grabbing facts that supported what he wanted and stating them as 'certian.' Sounds like you are doing great though. Wonderful to hear.
Church Bells Posted May 27, 2010 Posted May 27, 2010 2 quick things on this Church, to point out your blinders. 1. You have decided that everything in her story is suspect, EXCEPT the fact that she spent the night drunk in another man's hotel room. Why is this not suspect. Why do you decide that the only fact that helps your decision that she cheated is not suspect? Why is this a fact that we know for sure? It seems to me that the entire story is suspect, and thus she may have not spent the night in another man's hotel room. Heck, she may have made it back to her hotel and just said that to make her H pay a little more attention. Given his ambivalence to her going out in the past, maybe she was feeling uncared for and thought she would plant the seed of jealousy to make her husband pay more attention. Its as believable as her cheating. 2. Further, I do agree tha guilty until proven inoccent should be the standard of proof for any WW in this situation. But she is not a WW. You set the standard based on your conclusion, rather than the other way around. You decided she is a WW rather than starting from the point of her being a faithful spouse with no history of wrongdoing. Its the proper response for you because you have a WW. Your inablility to remember what it is like to trust is truely saddening. Good luck Church in your relationship, but please seek personal counseling to address your trust issues. 3 years past Dday it is time to start giving the trust back or move on. It must be very difficult to live like that. lonestar, With all due respect ... if I remember correctly ... you are not married and have no experience with this type of situation, which begs the question ... why are you cruising infidelity sites? If I am mistaken in my memory ... I apologise. However, it seems we are may view this closer than you think. You don't see her as "wayward" ... I do, for 2 reasons (one personal, the other deals with ss1's own stated boundaries) ... 1st, I personally view a married female sharing a hotel room with a married man, (whose not her H or a close relative) as a form of betrayal of her H's trust. Let me ask you, or the board for that matter, what percentage of married women spending the night in another married man's hotel room would NOT get "physical" in some capacity? My guess is that the percentage would fall well into the 90's, but others may have a different perspective. This whole set of circumstances just doesn't pass the "smell test" for many of us with this unfortunate experience set. 2nd ... in ss1's first posts, he made it very clear that he considered it a marital boundary for his travelling W to spend her nights in her own hotel room. For whatever reason, and regardless of whatever occurred, she crossed ss1's boundary ... you don't consider that "wayward", but it is definately a breach of trust on some level. I attach more severity to her actions ... admittedly, no doubt due to the closeness to my own situation ... you assign much less culpability. Fair enough ... but ss1 needs to hear a broad cross section of opinions and circumstances ... he can then take what he can use and disregard the rest. He may have indeed dodged a bullet in this case, but I'll bet his radar will be on full alert the next time anything even resembling something innapropriate occurs. From his last post, it seems like the parties involved carry some guilt, shame, remorse, whatever you want to call it, for their actions that night. That should speak volumes to ss1, and I'm glad he's taking steps to gain more clarity into the situation. I see it as very positive that his W confessed on her own, and is actively helping ss1 come to terms with what happened. I am also encouraged that she readily agreed to no more opposite sex co-worker socialization ... that is a recipe for disaster in today's corporate culture of more time at work than at home, with way toooo much overnight travel involved. With today's technology, it is amazing just how much corporate travel is completely unnecessary. In our situation, once priorities were reevaluated, my W's corporate travel has dropped by over 75%. In the end, this may just be one of those debateable grey areas ... while it may not have been the "full Monty" ... it certainly was more than an innocent mistake, all things considered.
lonestar190 Posted May 27, 2010 Posted May 27, 2010 lonestar, With all due respect ... if I remember correctly ... you are not married and have no experience with this type of situation, which begs the question ... why are you cruising infidelity sites? If I am mistaken in my memory ... I apologise. I have not been married, but have been cheated on in a long-term, engaged relationship and in another relationship that has turned long-term. The second relationship is turning to marriage. I have also watched two marriages of parents fall apart from cheating. I came to this site for reasons with the second relationship and only respond when I feel I have something constructive to say. However, it seems we are may view this closer than you think. You don't see her as "wayward" ... I do, for 2 reasons (one personal, the other deals with ss1's own stated boundaries) ... 1st, I personally view a married female sharing a hotel room with a married man, (whose not her H or a close relative) as a form of betrayal of her H's trust. 2nd ... in ss1's first posts, he made it very clear that he considered it a marital boundary for his travelling W to spend her nights in her own hotel room. For whatever reason, and regardless of whatever occurred, she crossed ss1's boundary ... you don't consider that "wayward", but it is definately a breach of trust on some level. I understand your personal view. I respect it and agree with it. However, she shared a room with three other people, and admited immediately it was a poor choice. I see it as a mistake, but not necessarily a betrayal. Also, SS1 stated boundries were not stated to his W. They had never had a conversation regarding the boundries, so she unknowingly crossed them. She now knows she would cross the boundry even if she stayed with her female friends. His boundry is not one I would have in a relationship, but I can understand it. It is just important to recognize that the bahavior of this relationship up till this point had not shown any boundry regarding getting drunk and socializing with the opposite sex. Had it, I would be much more on your side. It is just difficult to call something a breach of trust when you don't know the trust to begin with. Again, I agree that a married woman should almost always avoid sleeping the the same hotel room/house whatever as a married man when the spouses are not present. I just know that there are circumstances when it is the best option. Now that they have talked, she won't get drunk and put herself in the situation where it is the best option. But at the time, getting drunk and being out with a male co-worker (in addition to the two females) was never a problem in the relationship. For me, that is the most important point. From his last post, it seems like the parties involved carry some guilt, shame, remorse, whatever you want to call it, for their actions that night. That should speak volumes to ss1, and I'm glad he's taking steps to gain more clarity into the situation. I see it as very positive that his W confessed on her own, and is actively helping ss1 come to terms with what happened. I am also encouraged that she readily agreed to no more opposite sex co-worker socialization ... that is a recipe for disaster in today's corporate culture of more time at work than at home, with way toooo much overnight travel involved. I agree and think he should tactfully check the facts of the situation if he needs to. Given they are all friends, it shouldn't (an obviously wasn't) difficult to do. I just think accusing her of cheating and laying down lifetime ultimatums to see how she reacts doesn't help a relationship. And she didn't agree to no more opposite sex co-worker socialization, unless you are referring to that guy individually. With today's technology, it is amazing just how much corporate travel is completely unnecessary. In our situation, once priorities were reevaluated, my W's corporate travel has dropped by over 75%. This seems somewhat irrelevant and I am curious as to why you included it. I think it is great that he gets all perspectives. I just worry when people come on here talking about how she came home a blew him right after blowing the other guy, how she definitely cheated, and how she must be making all sorts of things up. I know, because it happened to me that way. It makes it a lot harder to deal with things rationally when your brain is going wild. I am sure you deal with that when your wife fails to call right on time, or plans change without her knowledge or control. It sparks up thoughts of cheating, and a decent imagination can run wild. I encourage SS1 to think clearly and intelligently and get information in a productive, tactful way that dosn't damage his relationships. I don't want him sitting and fuming with thoughts of her cheating that could lead to fight and problems where one may or may not exist. If she cheated, I am all for your plan. But treating a non-cheater as if they are a cheater can do a lot of damage. Anyway, just my thoughts. Best of luck to you SS1 and you Church. As I said before Church, it sounds like you are in a difficult situation.
2sunny Posted May 27, 2010 Posted May 27, 2010 **UPDATE** I felt that I should provide appropriate updates for you all, as if I ever do need additional insight in the future that this could help.. 1.) Wife and I are going to counseling today, she agreed it would be good for us and the family. Not because of the past situation but it will be included. 2.) Spoke to male co-worker, he apologized and stated it was very poor judgement on his part. 3.) Spoke to female co-worker (not other), she mentioned what happen on the hush hush as it was very embarrassing for her and quite stupid. 4.) Wife has mentioned she will not be spending time out with male co-worker again as his judgement as well hers was questionable and not appropriate for company, marriages, and reputations. More to come after counseling, note we will cover more then just this incident. Lonestar190: I am taken back by your comment; ambivalence to her going out in past; I am not ambivalent. She shares with me what she is doing as I do with her. I didn't seek out the information as I had no reason to distrust her, now after this event; and she knows; I am more alert and trust has been damaged a bit, but again I will be calm and collected on how I approach it. i do question what is bolded above... mainly because i would want to know EXACTLY what SHE thinks is HER questionable and inappropriate judgment and behavior for THIS specific circumstance... from HER point of view - in EXACT details. hers was questionable and not appropriate for company, marriages, and reputations. specific to your typed words = WHAT did she do - exactly - that she deems inappropriate for the company, marriage and reputation... for HER only. i would want how SHE participated and what that looked like for HER. DETAILED accounting... so you have an idea of exactly why she has remorse and guilt... people don't have remorse and guilt unless they've done something they shouldn't have done... THIS is why it doesn't sit well with me. something seems "off."
Author ss1 Posted May 27, 2010 Author Posted May 27, 2010 (edited) 2sunny, Okay I will put in place for you. The female co-workers she is their super, he was a sales manager. So the two managers should know better, that what they all did as ADULTS was inappropriate from a work point of view alone. This were the work piece comes in. Secondly, she female co-worker, he male co-worker in same hotel room on travel with two other female co-workers. He is married, She is married, the two other co-workers are single. Bad judgement and damaging reputation risk on all parties. This make more since? Edited May 27, 2010 by ss1
2sunny Posted May 27, 2010 Posted May 27, 2010 2sunny, Okay I will put in place for you. The female co-workers she is their super, he was a sales manager. So the two managers should know better, that what they all did as ADULTS was inappropriate from a work point of view alone. This were the work piece comes in. Secondly, she female co-worker, he male co-worker in same hotel room on travel with two other female co-workers. He is married, She is married, the two other co-workers are single. Bad judgement and damaging reputation risk on all parties. This make more since? no - it doesn't make more sense. i already got that info from your previous posts. start asking for SPECIFICS. it's the details that may or may not make the difference. THAT info you listed alone isn't enough to make people feel shame or guilt... something must have occurred for THOSE feelings they ALL seem to have to be present. you don't know enough - and until you understand the fine details - we don't really know if you should or shouldn't be concerned... ask! ask a ton of questions... until YOU understand what was REALLY happening that made these folks feel so bad about being in that room together. do not make assumptions one way or the other until you have ENOUGH facts to determine what ACTUALLY was happening. now go ask.
jnj express Posted May 27, 2010 Posted May 27, 2010 You may never get the proof----but there are WAY to many red flags here------ Is your wife that much of a drunk, that after the bar closes---they go to a MAN'S room for more licqour. Ask your wife to tell her thought processes, at that point in time. Then she ends up in bed with the man. Singles, and marrieds, all mixed together-----I am thinking a plain old style drunken orgy. What kind of a mind does your wife have----enuff of a mind to make superviser at work----She is not telling you the whole story----she is way to sharp to just let this kind of thing happen----and you are letting her pull the wool over your eyes. She tells the truth, she knows her life as it is/was now, is over----to be replaced by a storm, that will never end You don't have all the truth!!!!!!!!!!!
jnj express Posted May 27, 2010 Posted May 27, 2010 Ask your wife to take a polygraph, about events of that night
Hop_prophet Posted May 27, 2010 Posted May 27, 2010 Then she ends up in bed with the man. Singles, and marrieds, all mixed together-----I am thinking a plain old style drunken orgy. I'm surprised no one even touched on this yet. This to me is what is so inappropriate. Surely she cannot feign ignorance that this would be trampling all over any boundaries?!? She didn't JUST spend the night in a married man's room, she slept in the same bed with him. To me this act is in itself cheating. She seems remorseful and I would like to give her the benefit of the doubt but I agree that this story sounds fishy. Of course her female subordinates are going to vouch for her story.
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