This week's counseling session......

May 21, 2010

He hasn't asked me to set him free yet and I'm not sure that's the best course of action -- that's why.

well let him read this thread and see if he doesn't change his mind.

he doesn't know whats best for him because you still keep him in the dark.

Well, I don't think he is a spineless lap dog.

I said IF HE KNEW how you really felt and read all that we are reading, he'd have to be if he still wanted to keep you for some god awful reason.

I don't know if telling him I'm sexually not attracted to him is the way to go.

it isn't just that, its your attitude with this whole thing in all of your posts and the fact you still talk to the XOM and keep it from him.

I have not once said my husband is insignificant to me

you don't have to.

May 21, 2010

The only true friend? How did you come to that conclusion just out of curiosity? People certainly make some broad assumptions here at times. How could you possibly know that is the case?

Since you asked me, I will try to answer you.

The answer is obvious: you have not mentioned anyone else as being any sort of a true friend to confide in about your situation. Who do you really have to talk to about all of this on a friendship basis? No one, which is why you are heavily discussing your issues at LS. You have many internet friends but that is not what I was talking about.

You claimed you are not antagonistic with your affair partner, but then admitted your contacts with him have devolved into bickering/fighting and he is angry at you. In any case if you don't expect to ever communicate with him in the future, you can't possibly regard your AP as a true friend.

You have not mentioned anyone else in the entire world, other than your husband, who is providing you with any kind of financial, emotional, or other significant support.

I don't know if you have relatives such as a close sister nearby who you can confide in about this situation, but...do you? Have you? Have you ever told anyone the full extent of what is happening with your life? This would include the fact that you have never established successful no contact with your affair partner; and that you are seriously contemplating leaving your husband although your husband believes you are trying to reconcile with him.

You talk about your country club, but basically only to mock it (I'm not saying it's not mock-worthy.) You don't mention having any of your OWN friends, close friends, at the country club (not your husband's golf buddies).

You don't have any particular regard for your husband's church or its beliefs, and I assume don't have any particularly close friends at the church. As far as I know you haven't mentioned anyone like that.

You do have a therapist but that is a for-hire professional, not the same thing as a friend.

When I said you haven't divorced yet because you have no place else to go, obviously I didn't mean you lacked a physical place to go. Obviously you can stay at the Holiday Inn. What I meant is that from the emotional/relationship standpoint you had no place to go.

And, you essentially confirmed that. You said, proudly, that you didn't care if there was no one you could turn to after a split-up, you would be more than happy to live alone for a year.

Now what's odd about this, to me anyway, is that most women, and men, when going through something like this, will try to air it out with a close friend, if they have one. And presumably if you had such a heart to heart conversation with a close friend, you would have gotten feedback from him or her, and would have conveyed it back to your LS friends, the same way you are in great detail conveying feedback from your husband, IC, and affair partner.

But...nothing. Now I haven't gone back and read all your posts about your situation, but I'd love to be wrong about this.

I notice that you didn't deny not having any close friends (other than your husband). You just got very defensive and attacked me for pointing out the possibility.

So I'll put the question to you.

May 21, 2010

---------------------

I liked all of his movies too.. "Hud" was Great .. ha.
(Could never understand his attraction for Joanne Woodward - he even dumped his wife for her.)

I didn't know he was married more than once. He was with Joanne Woodward a long time, wasn't he? I like her too!

It does take several attempts Sam. It did for me anyway. It sounds like your XAP really loved you, otherwise he would not have such anger. These affairs are so detrimental. I feel like I will forever be scarred from mine.

Whatever it is Sam I hope you find REAL happiness on the other side of this no matter how it ends up.

I want to think he did, although he certainly didn't sound like it the last time we spoke. In any event, I feel like I loved him a lot and also feel I may be forever scarred.

Thank you for the sweet thought and your encouragement. I really appreciate it.

May 21, 2010

He hasn't asked me to set him free yet and I'm not sure that's the best course of action -- that's why.

Because you are LYING to him.

How could he possibly make an informed decision, if YOU control all the information?

May 21, 2010

"Well, my husband had been drinking a ton of beer during the day at the golf tournament. He says he usually goes through a couple of six packs throughout the day. Then that night, he was drinking scotch at the function.

When we got home, he had another scotch..."

Yes, you're right, and I'm wrong. What could I have been thinking? Please disregard EVERYTHING I have said here. And denial plays absolutely role in the dynamics of alcoholic families. The families are generally mentally healthy, see things with great clarity, and are highly versed in dysfunction. His personality is not volatile or unpredictable, and I see a bright future and lots of stability in your future. I wish you and your sober husband many years of health and happiness.

But there's not a single alcoholic in either family.....

Anyway, it's silly to discuss alcoholism if it's not a factor.

Because you are LYING to him.

How could he possibly make an informed decision, if YOU control all the information?

I've told him about the affair. It's not like my XAP are still carrying on an even civil relationship. He was just getting his frustrations out on Monday screaming at me.

May 21, 2010

Sam,

It seems like in some way you are going through the grieving process described below. At some level the prospect of a divorce after 33 years has to feel like a death - the death of a marriage.

Actually my biggest hope isn't for you, as I think you are making your way through this in a healthy way. My biggest hope is that your H is beginning to traverse this path in parallel with you.

Because it is obvious you truly deeply love each other. And that means if you get to the end of this process together, and reach the same conclusion at around the same time, this is going to hurt a whole lot less.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

1. SHOCK & DENIAL-

You will probably react to learning of the loss with numbed disbelief. You may deny the reality of the loss at some level, in order to avoid the pain. Shock provides emotional protection from being overwhelmed all at once. This may last for weeks.

2. PAIN & GUILT-

As the shock wears off, it is replaced with the suffering of unbelievable pain. Although excruciating and almost unbearable, it is important that you experience the pain fully, and not hide it, avoid it or escape from it with alcohol or drugs.

You may have guilty feelings or remorse over things you did or didn't do with your loved one. Life feels chaotic and scary during this phase.

3. ANGER & BARGAINING-

Frustration gives way to anger, and you may lash out and lay unwarranted blame for the death on someone else. Please try to control this, as permanent damage to your relationships may result. This is a time for the release of bottled up emotion.

You may rail against fate, questioning "Why me?" You may also try to bargain in vain with the powers that be for a way out of your despair ("I will never drink again if you just bring him back")

4. "DEPRESSION", REFLECTION, LONELINESS-

Just when your friends may think you should be getting on with your life, a long period of sad reflection will likely overtake you. This is a normal stage of grief, so do not be "talked out of it" by well-meaning outsiders. Encouragement from others is not helpful to you during this stage of grieving.

During this time, you finally realize the true magnitude of your loss, and it depresses you. You may isolate yourself on purpose, reflect on things you did with your lost one, and focus on memories of the past. You may sense feelings of emptiness or despair.

7 Stages of Grief...

5. THE UPWARD TURN-

As you start to adjust to life without your dear one, your life becomes a little calmer and more organized. Your physical symptoms lessen, and your "depression" begins to lift slightly.

6. RECONSTRUCTION & WORKING THROUGH-

As you become more functional, your mind starts working again, and you will find yourself seeking realistic solutions to problems posed by life without your loved one. You will start to work on practical and financial problems and reconstructing yourself and your life without him or her.

7. ACCEPTANCE & HOPE-

During this, the last of the seven stages in this grief model, you learn to accept and deal with the reality of your situation. Acceptance does not necessarily mean instant happiness. Given the pain and turmoil you have experienced, you can never return to the carefree, untroubled YOU that existed before this tragedy. But you will find a way forward.

I'm not laughing about it -- I'm laughing at the way you word your posts -- and not even in an ugly way -- I find them humorous. I'm not laissez faire about it. I did care about my XAP and did not and will not ever think of him as a "side penis."

I do love him very much. I think I'm not in love with him. I'm not sure where it's all going to go.

He hasn't asked me to set him free yet and I'm not sure that's the best course of action -- that's why.

Well, I don't think he is a spineless lap dog. I don't know if telling him I'm sexually not attracted to him is the way to go. If I leave, I will more than likely tell him it is me that has the problem. I don't think my XAP is precious, I just don't hate him. I think he had more cons than pros -- but I did/do care about him as a person and I don't want to bash him. I think my husband has more pros than cons and -- obviously -- more pros than me or my XAP given our affair.

Well good. I'd hate to be waxing your ass.

I have not once said my husband is insignificant to me -- I think more the opposite.

May 21, 2010

Cobalt,

I agree 10 percent of the population is alcoholic. So randomly assigning that label to someone makes you wrong nine out of ten times.

Sadly my father WAS an alcoholic so I am very familiar with the disease. Nothing Sam has written has ever caused me to think her husband was even in the gray zone in terms of alcohol consumption. So what is it that caused you to draw the conclusion he is an alky?

The guy's an alcoholic. He was an alcoholic before they met. He will always be an alcoholic (for the many of you who know nothing about this disease, he will be an alcoholic even if he gets sober and stops drinking). This is one of the major problems in the marriage. And it's made the OP sick as well.

Even if I knew nothing about his drinking habits or behaviors (drunk or sober), there would be a 10% chance of his having the disease of alcoholism (yes, you read that right - 1 in 10 of the general pop are alcoholics). And they function quite well and quite highly - they're usually very popular, assiduous at work, and no one suspects a thing. It's their families that suffer - they come home and the dysfunction starts.

But nahhh.....I couldn't be right about this. His drinking is a symptom of the affair, and not a causative factor. And so let's all forget about my little observation. I was wrong to mention it. Let's keep things going just the way they've been going, because that's working so well.

May 22, 2010

With all due respect Mem .. the stages of grief are usually for catastrophic such as when someone has experienced death of a loved one - or a divorce, etc .. Not so much if they are merely unhappy within their marriage..

(just my opinion) ..

May 22, 2010

I was reading this article in the NY times where the writer was describing his marriage. He said "after 20+ years I know longer know where I end and she begins" That quote struck a note with me. For me, divorce would be the end of / death of the single most valuable thing in my life - my marriage.

And yes of course it would be way worse if my wife died, than if she "merely" divorced me.

I think the grief processing for the end of a long marriage is somewhat similar.

With all due respect Mem .. the stages of grief are usually for catastrophic such as when someone has experienced death of a loved one - or a divorce, etc .. Not so much if they are merely unhappy within their marriage..

(just my opinion) ..

May 22, 2010

Well, this does come as a relief to me. Now I know that I can believe everything I read on the internet, and that everyone who lives with an alcoholic is savvy on the dynamics of the disease, and that they're never in denial. Good to know.

And you're right, Sam in not claiming her husband is a heavy drinker, merely that he "usually goes through a couple of six packs throughout the day," and then switches to scotch at night. Prior to coming here, I just naturally thought that....well.....that would sort of constitute a "heavy drinker." Now I know better (oh, and please spare me the 'context' argument on this point, as well as the 'isolated incident' excuse).

And for the few of you who are obsessing over me calling an alcoholic an alcoholic, you can stop now. I did my best to help by pointing out the elephant in the room that, amazingly, all the "professionals" have missed.

So, you can move along now; remember, this thread's not about me.

PS: Blind, at your meetings, have you ever heard the counselor say that 'if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, acts like a duck, and quacks....chances are it's a duck'?

Good luck with your recovery.

Cobalt:

Obviously her husband is an alcoholic, or certainly alcohol-dependent/incipient alcoholic. However, it may be situational and he may not have progressed far enough down the path to where those around him cannot ignore it. He's a pretty functional alcoholic, at least at this stage. But certainly the cracks are starting to show.

I frankly am amazed/mystified at all the friction you have been getting for pointing out the obvious connection between the behavioral issues that samantha claims she objects to and her husband's alcohol usage.

Perhaps there can be some hair splitting to argue that well maybe he's just alcohol-dependent and not quite an alcoholic, but no one's even been objecting to your observation on that basis; they seem to believe that alcohol isn't even an issue, when it clearly is.

The only caveat (and again this is probably just hair splitting) is I would want to know her husband's body mass. If he is an extremely large gentleman, say 250-300 lbs., then consuming that quantity of alcohol (2 sixes of beer, "a couple" of scotches on top of that--probably "double or triple" scotches, too; probably more than a couple--well you know the drill Cobalt even if no one else around here seems to); then it is remotely possible that he could consume 2 sixes of beer over the course of say 6-8 hours and possibly not be an alcoholic, although this is purely theoretical.

Because, it is not just the quantity of his consumption; it is also that his behavior was adversely affected by the alcohol consumption, as indicated by his wife. And this is not a one time thing, it seems to be a pattern.

If a person drinks and then has behavioral issues as a result, even regardless of quantity, then they have an alcohol problem and/or are an "alcoholic" (although I'm not sure being certain of the precise "label" makes too much difference for purposes of this thread).

Getting back to the quantity consumed--2 sixes of beer followed by "a couple" of scotches is a MASSIVE amount for the average person to consume in an afternoon/evening. (Again there may be somewhat of a caveat if her husband is a really big boy). Unless a pretty good tolerance has been built up, over many years of pretty constant drinking, this amount of consumption would render an average person more or less incapacitated.

I think Cobalt the problem you are running into here, certainly with the OP, is that her "social milieu" is one in which the peer group pretty much drinks like fish regularly on a social basis. It's not just her husband knocking back the two sixes + scotches; it's his golfing buddies etc. And again this is not a "one time" thing (it couldn't be--if he didn't drink like this on a reasonably regular basis he wouldn't have the tolerance for that amount of consumption).

I'm a light social drinker, Cobalt. I have two or maybe 3 beers on a social occasion, maybe a couple of glasses of wine when out for dinner with my wife. I don't actually think I could drink a sixpack anymore (did it more than once in my younger days) but if I did I would be completely drunk. As would most average sized people who had not already built up a good tolerance.

And, I don't think OP's husband is a "whale." She describes him as physically attractive, she hasn't made any reference to him being "chunky" or "overweight," so I'm guessing he's probably in the 175-200 lb. range. That's somewhat heavier than I am, but even at 200 lbs., drinking 12 beers in an afternoon/evening, followed by some scotches, followed by a rageaholic session with the wife, more than 1x, is clearly an indication of a significant "alcohol problem" if not actual "alcoholism."

This also suggests that the OP has been co-dependent/enabler for their entire relationship regarding the alcoholism/alcohol dependence. Certainly the rest of their relationship seems chock-full of codependency.

It's not clear whether or not OP is also an alcoholic, although she doesn't really indicate she drinks that much.

However, in one of her posts, the OP indicated that her husband had to get sh*t-faced drunk in order to try to make love to her.

If that isn't an indication of a serious alcohol dependency problem, if not full blown alcoholism, I'm not sure what is.

May 22, 2010

Well, my husband had been drinking a ton of beer during the day at the golf tournament. He says he usually goes through a couple of six packs throughout the day. Then that night, he was drinking scotch at the function.

When we got home, he had another scotch and I was telling him how crazy it was for those people to reprimand the employee for attending a staff meeting and why in the world were they holding it in the men's locker room if she wasn't allowed to be in there.

That explosion y'all have been warning about then erupted. He started yelling like he was crazy -- not normal yelling -- and yelled WTF do you want me to do about it, etc. He went on for about 10 more minutes yelling about how I had not loved him in at least two years and he doesn't have any feelings left for me at all. He also started doing this bizarre head shaking thing at the end of his sentences where he would shake his head real dramatically at the end of his sentences and say "Never, never, never!" or "No, no, no!" (depending on what he had just said) and clenching his mouth and shutting his eyes. It was so strange. This was all while remaining in his lazyboy.

I stayed calm and told him I was going to bed because he was acting insane.

Hey, I'm no expert, but my feeling when I read this was: alcolhol yielding bizarre behavior ==> alcohol problem. I'll let you all argue what to label it with, but even the OP thought it was "crazy... not normal... bizarre... strange.... insane."

May 22, 2010

My goodness. Even though I feel pretty sure you are tp, I will respond this time......

Since you asked me, I will try to answer you.

The answer is obvious: you have not mentioned anyone else as being any sort of a true friend to confide in about your situation. Who do you really have to talk to about all of this on a friendship basis? No one, which is why you are heavily discussing your issues at LS. You have many internet friends but that is not what I was talking about.

Firstly, why ask me a question and then answer it yourself? Does that not concern you in the area of arrogance? It should.

Secondly, I'm not normally asked to give a friends list -- lol -- but I'll play along because I love my friends.

I have trouble naming a "best" friend because I have about five really close best friends. I'll name them by letter as opposed to an actual name.......

My friend, Q, and I have been friends since my early 30s. She knows everything -- about XAP and the sexual issues.

My friend, C, and I have been friends since my early 20s. She also knows both.

My friend, D, and I have been friends since my mid-30s. She knows both.

My friend, S, and I have been friends about five years. She knows both.

My sister, C, who I also consider a best friend and she knows about the sexual stuff. I haven't told her about the affair, but it's not because she wouldn't support me. She worries a LOT and I did not want her stressing about it all the time.

You claimed you are not antagonistic with your affair partner, but then admitted your contacts with him have devolved into bickering/fighting and he is angry at you. In any case if you don't expect to ever communicate with him in the future, you can't possibly regard your AP as a true friend.

Sure I do. And I meant we were not having any more conversations so we were not antagonistic any longer. It was only the last few times we talked that we really started arguing.

You have not mentioned anyone else in the entire world, other than your husband, who is providing you with any kind of financial, emotional, or other significant support.

Well, I have 13 siblings and a lot of friends. I find it amusing you come to these broad conclusions. If you look at threads of other people on Loveshack, I don't really notice everyone going on about their circle of friends. Why? Well, because this is a relationship message board and in the affair/marriage sections people generally discuss those things -- not pass out a friend resume.

I don't know if you have relatives such as a close sister nearby who you can confide in about this situation, but...do you? Have you? Have you ever told anyone the full extent of what is happening with your life? This would include the fact that you have never established successful no contact with your affair partner; and that you are seriously contemplating leaving your husband although your husband believes you are trying to reconcile with him.

Yep -- answered above. My husband does not necessarily believe we are reconciling. He knows we have serious issues.

You talk about your country club, but basically only to mock it (I'm not saying it's not mock-worthy.) You don't mention having any of your OWN friends, close friends, at the country club (not your husband's golf buddies).

That's because I'm not friends with people at that country club. I'm not saying they are all bad, but the ONLY time I go over there is to golf with my husband the few times during the year we golf there together -- and for functions he asks me to attend.

You don't have any particular regard for your husband's church or its beliefs, and I assume don't have any particularly close friends at the church. As far as I know you haven't mentioned anyone like that.

It's our church -- we don't attend much at all any longer -- I do have friends who are also members there. They aren't particularly close friends any longer -- but friendly acquaintances. As for the beliefs of the church, I am a Christian and I believe in God and Jesus. If you're talking about denominational rules -- no, I don't have a lot of regard for particular intricacies in beliefs which I think -- a lot of times -- people have made up.

You do have a therapist but that is a for-hire professional, not the same thing as a friend.

LOL -- well thanks for letting me know. I consider him a professional and not a buddy.

When I said you haven't divorced yet because you have no place else to go, obviously I didn't mean you lacked a physical place to go. Obviously you can stay at the Holiday Inn. What I meant is that from the emotional/relationship standpoint you had no place to go.

Okay -- well, you are incorrect. I don't mean that smugly -- it simply isn't the case.

And, you essentially confirmed that. You said, proudly, that you didn't care if there was no one you could turn to after a split-up, you would be more than happy to live alone for a year.

I meant I had no intention of seeking a romantic/sexual partner right away. I thought that was pretty clear in what I typed.

Now what's odd about this, to me anyway, is that most women, and men, when going through something like this, will try to air it out with a close friend, if they have one. And presumably if you had such a heart to heart conversation with a close friend, you would have gotten feedback from him or her, and would have conveyed it back to your LS friends, the same way you are in great detail conveying feedback from your husband, IC, and affair partner.

You're making all sorts of assumptions and yes -- I suppose that would be strange for someone to not have any friends.

I find this board interesting because it is a place one can exchange very personal things and remain anonymous with strangers who are experiences somewhat like things. I've really never thought to report in here what my friends are saying. It's probably because I'm intrigued by what is being said here and I consider it a separate realm from my friendship realm. My friends, Q and S, know about Loveshack however. I suppose I felt more compelled to share with them as they are my actual friends.

I don't particularly feel compelled to discuss my friends on LS -- although I believe I did mention my friend, C, and her affair and her husband's reaction -- along with how she regretted having told her husband about her affair -- but that was in an earlier thread.

But...nothing. Now I haven't gone back and read all your posts about your situation, but I'd love to be wrong about this.

Well good. I hope you're loving being incorrect.

I notice that you didn't deny not having any close friends (other than your husband). You just got very defensive and attacked me for pointing out the possibility.

So I'll put the question to you.

I didn't know you had said earlier I didn't have any close friends -- which, by the way, as I've pointed out is a big assumption to make about someone you do not know in person.

Hopefully, that answered your questions.........

May 22, 2010

Sam,
It seems like in some way you are going through the grieving process described below. At some level the prospect of a divorce after 33 years has to feel like a death - the death of a marriage.

Actually my biggest hope isn't for you, as I think you are making your way through this in a healthy way. My biggest hope is that your H is beginning to traverse this path in parallel with you.

Because it is obvious you truly deeply love each other. And that means if you get to the end of this process together, and reach the same conclusion at around the same time, this is going to hurt a whole lot less.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

1. SHOCK & DENIAL-
You will probably react to learning of the loss with numbed disbelief. You may deny the reality of the loss at some level, in order to avoid the pain. Shock provides emotional protection from being overwhelmed all at once. This may last for weeks.

2. PAIN & GUILT-
As the shock wears off, it is replaced with the suffering of unbelievable pain. Although excruciating and almost unbearable, it is important that you experience the pain fully, and not hide it, avoid it or escape from it with alcohol or drugs.

You may have guilty feelings or remorse over things you did or didn't do with your loved one. Life feels chaotic and scary during this phase.

3. ANGER & BARGAINING-
Frustration gives way to anger, and you may lash out and lay unwarranted blame for the death on someone else. Please try to control this, as permanent damage to your relationships may result. This is a time for the release of bottled up emotion.

You may rail against fate, questioning "Why me?" You may also try to bargain in vain with the powers that be for a way out of your despair ("I will never drink again if you just bring him back")

4. "DEPRESSION", REFLECTION, LONELINESS-
Just when your friends may think you should be getting on with your life, a long period of sad reflection will likely overtake you. This is a normal stage of grief, so do not be "talked out of it" by well-meaning outsiders. Encouragement from others is not helpful to you during this stage of grieving.

During this time, you finally realize the true magnitude of your loss, and it depresses you. You may isolate yourself on purpose, reflect on things you did with your lost one, and focus on memories of the past. You may sense feelings of emptiness or despair.

7 Stages of Grief...

5. THE UPWARD TURN-
As you start to adjust to life without your dear one, your life becomes a little calmer and more organized. Your physical symptoms lessen, and your "depression" begins to lift slightly.

6. RECONSTRUCTION & WORKING THROUGH-
As you become more functional, your mind starts working again, and you will find yourself seeking realistic solutions to problems posed by life without your loved one. You will start to work on practical and financial problems and reconstructing yourself and your life without him or her.

7. ACCEPTANCE & HOPE-
During this, the last of the seven stages in this grief model, you learn to accept and deal with the reality of your situation. Acceptance does not necessarily mean instant happiness. Given the pain and turmoil you have experienced, you can never return to the carefree, untroubled YOU that existed before this tragedy. But you will find a way forward.

Thanks mem. If we do end up divorced, I hope the same for both of us.

I've lost both parents and a brother when he was 24, so I'm familiar with the stages of grief and how it feels (for me) when going through them. I think you are correct and a relationship ending that is as long term as the one me and my husband have shared would be grieved greatly.

May 22, 2010

My goodness. Even though I feel pretty sure you are tp, I will respond this time......

I think you've hit the nail on the head.......re: TP
I also have a suspicion that he has more than one user name on this thread.

May 22, 2010

"But there's not a single alcoholic in either family....."

Ok Sam, thanks for clearing that up. Because while I knew that alcoholism tends to run in families, I didn't know that having it in one's family was a prerequisite. This is terrific - I'm learning so much here!

Well, you're obviously 100% sure my spouse is an alcoholic -- so I'm learning a lot here too!

May 22, 2010

I went to an AA meeting tonight.

I have probably gone to close to a thousand meetings in the past 10 years.....as I am a recovering alcoholic.

Sams husband may.....or may not be an alcoholic. It does NOT seem to be a big issue for her. If he truly was an alcoholic, I am sure Sam would be using that as another justification. Some enablers can be in denial.

RARELY.....does the enabler claim that the drinker has NO problem at all. They will usually....at a minimum say that they drink often. Sam is not even claiming he is a heavy drinker.

He isn't. Almost all of those men drink a lot at member/member or member/guest golf tournaments. It's spread out over the entire day and then there are functions at night. They're having a blast.

And thanks for the sweet words also.

May 22, 2010

With all due respect Mem .. the stages of grief are usually for catastrophic such as when someone has experienced death of a loved one - or a divorce, etc .. Not so much if they are merely unhappy within their marriage..

(just my opinion) ..

I think he was saying someone goes through the stages of grief when ending a long term marriage -- as in a divorce? I doubt they commence exactly on the day of signing the papers -- I'm sure it starts before then as the relationship falls apart.

May 22, 2010

I was reading this article in the NY times where the writer was describing his marriage. He said "after 20+ years I know longer know where I end and she begins" That quote struck a note with me. For me, divorce would be the end of / death of the single most valuable thing in my life - my marriage.

And yes of course it would be way worse if my wife died, than if she "merely" divorced me.

I think the grief processing for the end of a long marriage is somewhat similar.

I think so also.

May 22, 2010

there is a genetic link to alcoholism... generally triggered by some trauma...

unfortunately, the reality is that most families are so determined to cover up the tendencies of their alcoholic family members - the genetic links are often not revealed for second or third generations.

assume nothing. watch behavior. see if a pattern has developed that you even deny for yourself. look at facts. act on realities.

May 22, 2010

Cobalt:

Obviously her husband is an alcoholic, or certainly alcohol-dependent/incipient alcoholic. However, it may be situational and he may not have progressed far enough down the path to where those around him cannot ignore it. He's a pretty functional alcoholic, at least at this stage. But certainly the cracks are starting to show.

I frankly am amazed/mystified at all the friction you have been getting for pointing out the obvious connection between the behavioral issues that samantha claims she objects to and her husband's alcohol usage.

Perhaps there can be some hair splitting to argue that well maybe he's just alcohol-dependent and not quite an alcoholic, but no one's even been objecting to your observation on that basis; they seem to believe that alcohol isn't even an issue, when it clearly is.

The only caveat (and again this is probably just hair splitting) is I would want to know her husband's body mass. If he is an extremely large gentleman, say 250-300 lbs., then consuming that quantity of alcohol (2 sixes of beer, "a couple" of scotches on top of that--probably "double or triple" scotches, too; probably more than a couple--well you know the drill Cobalt even if no one else around here seems to); then it is remotely possible that he could consume 2 sixes of beer over the course of say 6-8 hours and possibly not be an alcoholic, although this is purely theoretical.

Because, it is not just the quantity of his consumption; it is also that his behavior was adversely affected by the alcohol consumption, as indicated by his wife. And this is not a one time thing, it seems to be a pattern.

If a person drinks and then has behavioral issues as a result, even regardless of quantity, then they have an alcohol problem and/or are an "alcoholic" (although I'm not sure being certain of the precise "label" makes too much difference for purposes of this thread).

Getting back to the quantity consumed--2 sixes of beer followed by "a couple" of scotches is a MASSIVE amount for the average person to consume in an afternoon/evening. (Again there may be somewhat of a caveat if her husband is a really big boy). Unless a pretty good tolerance has been built up, over many years of pretty constant drinking, this amount of consumption would render an average person more or less incapacitated.

I think Cobalt the problem you are running into here, certainly with the OP, is that her "social milieu" is one in which the peer group pretty much drinks like fish regularly on a social basis. It's not just her husband knocking back the two sixes + scotches; it's his golfing buddies etc. And again this is not a "one time" thing (it couldn't be--if he didn't drink like this on a reasonably regular basis he wouldn't have the tolerance for that amount of consumption).

I'm a light social drinker, Cobalt. I have two or maybe 3 beers on a social occasion, maybe a couple of glasses of wine when out for dinner with my wife. I don't actually think I could drink a sixpack anymore (did it more than once in my younger days) but if I did I would be completely drunk. As would most average sized people who had not already built up a good tolerance.

And, I don't think OP's husband is a "whale." She describes him as physically attractive, she hasn't made any reference to him being "chunky" or "overweight," so I'm guessing he's probably in the 175-200 lb. range. That's somewhat heavier than I am, but even at 200 lbs., drinking 12 beers in an afternoon/evening, followed by some scotches, followed by a rageaholic session with the wife, more than 1x, is clearly an indication of a significant "alcohol problem" if not actual "alcoholism."

This also suggests that the OP has been co-dependent/enabler for their entire relationship regarding the alcoholism/alcohol dependence. Certainly the rest of their relationship seems chock-full of codependency.

It's not clear whether or not OP is also an alcoholic, although she doesn't really indicate she drinks that much.

However, in one of her posts, the OP indicated that her husband had to get sh*t-faced drunk in order to try to make love to her.

If that isn't an indication of a serious alcohol dependency problem, if not full blown alcoholism, I'm not sure what is.

Okay -- way too much rambling here -- but if you're trying to come up with a composite sketch of him (along with a list of my friends -- ) -- he is a ways over 6' tall and muscular -- so over 200lbs -- and not fat at all.

You guys should become golfers -- there's some beer drinking on the course during tournaments -- and these guys do get drunk! If y'all think that makes them alcoholics. Okay. Maybe they should turn poker night at the club into poker night/AA meetings.

However, in one of her posts, the OP indicated that her husband had to get sh*t-faced drunk in order to try to make love to her.

Please find that post. I'm sure I never said that. You're getting pretty bizarre making stuff up. Gee and odie, odie, odie -- I wonder why? You've obviously been keeping track....... I may have said I got to the point where I wanted to drink wine before we made love.......

May 22, 2010

Well, this does come as a relief to me. Now I know that I can believe everything I read on the internet, and that everyone who lives with an alcoholic is savvy on the dynamics of the disease, and that they're never in denial. Good to know.

And you're right, Sam in not claiming her husband is a heavy drinker, merely that he "usually goes through a couple of six packs throughout the day," and then switches to scotch at night. Prior to coming here, I just naturally thought that....well.....that would sort of constitute a "heavy drinker." Now I know better (oh, and please spare me the 'context' argument on this point, as well as the 'isolated incident' excuse).

I didn't say he does that every day. Jeesh!

And for the few of you who are obsessing over me calling an alcoholic an alcoholic, you can stop now. I did my best to help by pointing out the elephant in the room that, amazingly, all the "professionals" have missed.

So, you can move along now; remember, this thread's not about me.

PS: Blind, at your meetings, have you ever heard the counselor say that 'if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, acts like a duck, and quacks....chances are it's a duck'?

Good luck with your recovery.

Thank goodness! I hope you mean you will stop sidetracking the thread by discussing the alcoholism of someone you do not know. If he were an alcoholic, I'd say it. If I were an alcoholic, I'd announce it. I'm addicted to caffeine.

May 22, 2010

Hey, I'm no expert, but my feeling when I read this was: alcolhol yielding bizarre behavior ==> alcohol problem. I'll let you all argue what to label it with, but even the OP thought it was "crazy... not normal... bizarre... strange.... insane."

Because he was drunk! I suppose there are some people out there who think if someone gets drunk -- let's say at a club member/member events (not always) and -- well, there was the Scotland trip from a couple or few years ago (bad memory here) -- that makes them an alcoholic. I don't think so.

Now, I agree -- it's a problem for me if he starts getting drunk and yelling at me in that manner regularly -- but it really isn't something he does....

And it was not normal for him -- and extreme -- that evening. I imagine he's angry at me and it came out when he was intoxicated. If he was intoxicated all the time, I'm thinking it would be happening often based on the arguments of some here.

May 22, 2010

My goodness. Even though I feel pretty sure you are tp, I will respond this time......

I think you've hit the nail on the head.......re: TP
I also have a suspicion that he has more than one user name on this thread.

--------------------

I had the same suspicion.. until the last posts.. TP had read most of the threads to the point of knowing Samantha's situation - in that she would be taken care of should the marriage end - and have somewhere to go (or be) .. And also Samantha's friends. Samantha has mentioned girls night out and her good friends and also her close large family .. I think TP would have retained this info .. where "reel" doesn't seem to be as aware of these earlier disclosures..

May 22, 2010

My goodness. Even though I feel pretty sure you are tp, I will respond this time......

I think you've hit the nail on the head.......re: TP
I also have a suspicion that he has more than one user name on this thread.

Hi BB -- absolutely has to be.

May 22, 2010

--------------------

I had the same suspicion.. until the last posts.. TP had read most of the threads to the point of knowing Samantha's situation - in that she would be taken care of should the marriage end - and have somewhere to go (or be) .. And also Samantha's friends. Samantha has mentioned girls night out and her good friends and also her close large family .. I think TP would have retained this info .. where "reel" doesn't seem to be as aware of these earlier disclosures..

Hi cali. Happy weekend! I still think there's a distinct possibility it is a resurrection. That's pretty good recall on your part. I don't remember mentioning girls' night out -- although I love it -- and I'm not knocking you. I have a terrible memory.

Edited May 22, 2010 by Samantha0905

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