Author bananaboat11 Posted May 21, 2010 Author Posted May 21, 2010 The OP's post was a vent post. I highly doubt a few words of encouragement from anonymous people on the internet is going to give him the balls to stand up to his folks. So there's no need to hurt our heads over it. Hah. The majority of the replies made me laugh out loud... literally. To answer some questions. I am 25 y/o. I am a full-matriculated graduate student/employee of a prestigious university. I am living on my own. Paying rent. Pay my car payments. My cell phone bill. and so on and so forth. Among many religious faiths, it is customary to marry within one's own faith. Why? Why else do you think. Assimilation is an option, yes. My own personal beliefs and affiliations do not sit idly with each waking breath I consume. Some of us, however, regardless of being on our own with our own choices to make and our own paths to tread in this world... respect and love our parents. And honestly, I love and respect my parents and hold their ideals for my future to heart. Cultures usually marry within cultures... Why? Because it's an ideal we're raised on. We value and cherish these customs because it's apart of us... who we are. I respect and acknowledge other religions' beliefs and customs... but I do not follow their paths. In most religions... the orthodox views insist on marrying other members of the same religion/sect ... regardless of Jewish, Catholic, Muslim, Hindu, etc... Yes, there are those among those religious affiliations that do deviate from their community views and customs.... (me being among the wanderers... and excommunicated from my parents community), but one day... I don't know.. I'd like to raise my children the way I've been raised. Of course... the woman I marry will want to raise her children the way she was raised... (sometimes people believe they will be better parents, but we all turn out the same way... becoming who we promised never to become...)
Author bananaboat11 Posted May 21, 2010 Author Posted May 21, 2010 The preponderance of callowness blows my mind...
Dolos Posted May 21, 2010 Posted May 21, 2010 Hah. The majority of the replies made me laugh out loud... literally. To answer some questions. I am 25 y/o. I am a full-matriculated graduate student/employee of a prestigious university. I am living on my own. Paying rent. Pay my car payments. My cell phone bill. and so on and so forth. Among many religious faiths, it is customary to marry within one's own faith. Why? Why else do you think. Assimilation is an option, yes. My own personal beliefs and affiliations do not sit idly with each waking breath I consume. Some of us, however, regardless of being on our own with our own choices to make and our own paths to tread in this world... respect and love our parents. And honestly, I love and respect my parents and hold their ideals for my future to heart. Cultures usually marry within cultures... Why? Because it's an ideal we're raised on. We value and cherish these customs because it's apart of us... who we are. I respect and acknowledge other religions' beliefs and customs... but I do not follow their paths. In most religions... the orthodox views insist on marrying other members of the same religion/sect ... regardless of Jewish, Catholic, Muslim, Hindu, etc... Yes, there are those among those religious affiliations that do deviate from their community views and customs.... (me being among the wanderers... and excommunicated from my parents community), but one day... I don't know.. I'd like to raise my children the way I've been raised. Of course... the woman I marry will want to raise her children the way she was raised... (sometimes people believe they will be better parents, but we all turn out the same way... becoming who we promised never to become...) What you said sounds nice, and i agree to a point, but basically you're saying its acceptable to be prejudiced as long as you were raised that way. Also, calling someone immature because they are thankful they aren't religious is hardly respecting their beliefs.
Green Posted May 21, 2010 Posted May 21, 2010 I wouldn't use your parents as an excuse. Just tell the girl "I don't see this going anywhere past dating because I want some one who is of the same religion"... I wouldn't pawn it off on your parents.
witabix Posted May 21, 2010 Posted May 21, 2010 So bananaboat, what are you planning to do? How do you resolve such a conflict?
rewe4reel Posted May 21, 2010 Posted May 21, 2010 I finally meet a girl I'm into... physically... intellectually... emotionally... and of course.. she's jewish, but she's of a different sect/ideology of judaism. You know if you do establish a relationship with her, the crust of the earth won't suddenly start cracking apart. Sometimes you gotta be flexible. ...of course this doesn't sit well with my parents. If you really love her and she's a good person they will want you to be happy. You probably have various relatives in your family (maybe your parents don't talk about them) who married "outside" your branch of Judaism (Orthodox I take it?). The world didn't come to an end and God didn't smite them. It may take them a while to adapt but they will adapt. Your parents might be upset with your choice of a mate, but let's face it--they don't have to look across the pillow at her face every morning, you do. Better you should find someone who is not a perfect religious match and be happy with them than you match religions and the person is not really right for you. It isn't prejudiced. It's why black marries black. Asian marries Asian. Indian/Punjabi marries Indian/Punjabi.... Well certainly if you found a perfect religious match who was ALSO a perfect match in other ways, you hit the jackpot. But don't give up on someone who may be perfect for you in every way except religion. You don't really know how your parents might feel about this stuff "deep down." They may simply be reflecting societal pressures of their own. Deep down if they felt free to do so they might really want to encourage you. Let them have their say but you still need to do what makes YOU happy. So yeah... Been with this girl almost a month now... and she's falling for me and I really like her. Ughhhhhhhhhhhh Let it happen. Don't fight it. this is just a venting thread. not really looking for advice. Consider it encouragement. I love my parents and their ideals. I do not want/wish to disrespect them. Ever. ugh. Falling in love with someone is not disrespectful to your parents just because she happens to be different religiously. Maybe you are falling in love with this girl because it is God's will for you to meet, fall in love, and have a family together. If this ends up causing some conflict between you and your folks then perhaps this too is part of God's plan for you. Conflict is a part of life I am afraid. I am sure you are aware of that. If you have met a good person who loves you and who you love as well, and you decide you want to share each other's lives, my friend that is a rare gift indeed, a gift from God. Do not be so quick to reject God's gift to you.
witabix Posted May 21, 2010 Posted May 21, 2010 .......................... If you have met a good person who loves you and who you love as well, and you decide you want to share each other's lives, my friend that is a rare gift indeed, a gift from God. Do not be so quick to reject God's gift to you. That is an interesting perspective, never thought about it that way.
Ruby Slippers Posted May 21, 2010 Posted May 21, 2010 I am so glad I'm not religious. Me too. Mass delusion = scary!
SilentWitness Posted May 21, 2010 Posted May 21, 2010 (edited) If I had a son and he wanted to marry outside the family religion, I would be extremely hurt. It would be a life changing event and I would be ashamed. It would not only show that he is disregarding my desires, but it also shows a devaluing of his beliefs by choosing someone who doesn't believe as he does. In your situation, I really don't know. I know very little about the Jewish religion, but if she is Jewish, then that seems to be a much smaller issue. Religion makes dating much more difficult, but if it is important to you, do not neglect it. Things in life come and go, but the only constants will ever be you and God. You are assuming your theoretical son believes in your religion in the first place, which in the case of him wanting to marry someone of a different religion, probably isn't an accurate assessment of his ideals. Also, your assumption that people need god for guidance is just ignorant. Edited May 21, 2010 by SilentWitness Changed a single word. ^^
Lovelybird Posted May 21, 2010 Posted May 21, 2010 OP you might be interested in a poster Storyrider's thread about her marriage, she is a Jewish, and her husband is a Catholic, they were in love and got married, but later in her marriage, they encountered many problems around beliefs and details in life. The real life examples is much convincing than what said here by people who never experienced it in the first hand. If you are ready for that kind of challenge, then go for it, but it will be very, very difficult.
Author bananaboat11 Posted May 21, 2010 Author Posted May 21, 2010 OP you might be interested in a poster Storyrider's thread about her marriage, she is a Jewish, and her husband is a Catholic, they were in love and got married, but later in her marriage, they encountered many problems around beliefs and details in life. The real life examples is much convincing than what said here by people who never experienced it in the first hand. If you are ready for that kind of challenge, then go for it, but it will be very, very difficult. This is VERY true.
VertexSquared Posted May 21, 2010 Posted May 21, 2010 Until you can stand on your own two feet as an adult, you're not ready for an adult relationship, anyway. Some people never are. I second this post. On another note though, man am I glad I am not religious, and thankfully none of the girls I date are religious, either. I admit, I tend to be a bit harsh against those who are religious -- but it's not that I feel they're less intelligent (although it's often the case), but rather ignorant. There are plenty of smart people who would drop religious beliefs in an instant if they improved their education a bit in the realms of math, science, statistics, history, biology, chemistry, etc. I think it's so sad that great relationships can be torn apart by belief systems derived from high-probability delusions.
Author bananaboat11 Posted May 21, 2010 Author Posted May 21, 2010 You are assuming your theoretical son believes in your religion in the first place, which in the case of him wanting to marry someone of a different religion, probably isn't an accurate assessment of his ideals. Also, your assumption that people need god for guidance is just ignorant. This is based on what logic? Throwing in phrases such as 'theoretical son' and making bantam statements as 'the assumption that people need G-d for guidance is just ignorant' drives me to believe you are nothing more than apprehensive of a false reality. People rely on logic and emotion to motivate their day to day activities. Each individual characterizes his/her belief systems... his/her morals and values on life and habitual experiences typically onset through his/her childhood and upbringing. If you wish to deviate from your values... community ideals... parental archetypes for standard living - that's your prerogative, but i'm sure those who are raised in such environments that instill the importance of these religious norms and values to everyday life... it is a whole new ideology that brings a greater depth and meaning to personify a relationship... and growth within for a more enlightened experience. And I'm sure the same applies to agnosticism and athiesm, no? I cannot say for sure as I am a child of religion and value the cultural and religious ideals of Judaism. I do however perceive this relationship as a blessing/gift from G-d and do not wish to discredit her coming into my life. I truly believe everything happens for a reason... it is the flow of the world and to find fault with it is nothing more than a pseudo-cynicism, I believe. A woman who can share every detail of her world in mine and mine in hers. to wake up next to her and not care about her morning breathe... or that she isn't wearing makeup or that she farts in bed. It's when she's looking her worst that she's truly, remarkably beautiful to ME... that's important to me. This one isn't even the typical 'hot' girl I've dated in the past.... she's very cute. This woman I'm seeing is beyond hot... because I feel a connection beyond just the physical. trust me... we've had out intimate, physical companionship sessions... but to lie there and talk about the nothingness in life and meet our own ideological reasoning on similar boundaries without severe discrepancy... I don't know... to me... she is a 15/10.... ....so have I broken up with her over my parents views/expressions of religion? NO. Do I worry about the future of my common place in my own household...? With my parents? Yes. With my community... fck no. I'm already excommunicated. **** them. I'm JUST Jewish. I don't perceive myself as reform, conservative, nor orthodox. Do I worry about my future with a reform Jew and myself? Well.. regardless of my religious affiliations.. I still engage in common practices in line with Orthodoxy. Why? Because of the care, love, compassion, and value from my upbringing. Simply because I LOVE my parents. I love their way of life. It works. My parents are happily married for 25+ years... 30.. I think. Do I want to live happily ever after? Of course. Who doesn't? Anyone who believes they are destined to be single for the remainder of their lives, by choice... are simply missing something more beautiful in this world. The chance to engage in compromise with a partner, the chance to bring new life into this world that will carry on your values, ideals... who will rebel, but ultimately find some satisfaction in why you did what you did for them. And the chance to grow old together... and have your immediate and extended family visit you on holidays... sporadically throughout the year... because in essence, what more do we have if we do not have the common place of love? Money... materialism... etc.. are all nice thoughts. They can exonerate our existence and bring some worth to our lives, but can they truly fill the voids the exist in our hearts? Temporarily... possibly. But is life worth living truly, utterly alone? No one says marriage is in the question, but having one partner to share your world with... to me, at least.. seems more than ideal. More than, to be corny, magical... it's just ... life. It's almost the natural order of things. Life... proliferation... We as humans defy natural selection and modify human outcome. We have nearly defeated mother nature's intent on the human race... but what if it was mother nature and G-d's will to deem us the knowledge and power to completely defy our genetics... our physiology... and our finite ends. Science... Religion... I'd say each provide a distinct and unique perception of the world. I am both a scientist (PhD candidate in a science related field) and a religious man (who primarily associates culturally at this time, but was raised religious). I have no qualms with my lifestyle.. and it works for me. And she, the woman I'm dating now, is content with this. So... I say... let the world turn. Our free will decisive actions dictate our outcomes. If you choose to decide to let your "heart" lead your "head" and do not foresee any problematic occurrences in your distant future... or present... then live free and die free. However, if you can perceive what I love... and cherish... and value... to step out of your own shoes and gaze beyond the paradigm of idealism vs. cynicism vs. realism... What is it that truly drives us? No one knows... but we each have our own thoughts, premonitions, ideals, values, norms, morals, wants, desires, needs, and so on.... ...what drives you? I stand by my words of former. I love my parents. I love their views and expressions. I am a strong, independent alpha male. I do cherish my parents' lives and opinions. Their interest is my BEST outcome. Where am I in my life? To sound like an arrogant, self-absorbed, conceited piece of ****... a lot further than most in regards to education and societal stature. No disrespect, but I've sacrificed a lot in my life to take the road less traveled.... does not mean I'm better than anyone else. It does mean however I view the world in a different light. To each discipline... when you're affluent in your field... you perceive and understand the world in respects to your knowledge... your understanding of the world is different. I like that thought. Good day. /rant
Author bananaboat11 Posted May 21, 2010 Author Posted May 21, 2010 This thread is no longer based on the ideals of religion and relationships... but seems to be taking a turn towards Religion vs. Other. Personally, I feel today's society is a victim to laissez-faire parenting through the 60's, 70's, and most of the 80's. There was no structure to home & hearth. Call me old-fashioned and conservative, but the norms today among sex, religion, and all that other taboo are so much more present in the public image... as sex = good, religion = bad.... We all engage in frivolous activities... it's a part of growing up. Making mistakes and learning from them is what makes us human. However, where does it end? I don't think it has for some...
SilentWitness Posted May 21, 2010 Posted May 21, 2010 (edited) There is very sound logic to my reasoning actually. This person while lacking a son is assuming, probably rightly so, that if he/she did have a son who married outside his “family” religion, then that son would be performing a very hurtful act. But one has to question how firmly the son believes in those values if he is able to marry someone outside his religion, something that would both hurt his parents and betray "his" religious values, regardless of whether it was for love. My statement about god, bantam though you may consider it, is simply fact. Although I realize now that it wasn’t needed because I misread the post I quoted, was very late at night at the time. The poster advised that “if it is important,” while I thought the post was without the if, which would have sounded like he was advising that religion was an necessary part of life for stability and guidance, which isn’t true, and, not being religious myself, I objected to. As for your statement about being “apprehensive of a false reality,” the idea needs refinement because it is too vague to make sense of. Also, when you described the inheritance of values, the key word is typical, as I agree that it is most common for children to inherit their parent’s ideals, which is why religious indoctrination is so effective, but that’s still only something like an 80% rate. The theoretical son in this example might have turned out to be gay, or might be atheist, or any number of things. I grew up in a religious household and I gave it up in disgust as soon as I had learned to think for myself. Atheists/ agnostics pass on their values, but the most important value they try to instill is critical thought, to not just blindly believe what others tell you to. An important distinction, as children are given much more freedom to decide for themselves how to act and live their lives. Most people follow their parent’s religion for their whole lives without really considering other beliefs, and that is a shame. I looked at many religions when I lost mine before I gave up, and if anything I would have been best suited for a Buddhist or a similar Middle Eastern religion, but of course I no longer feel I need any religion. This is not saying atheists/agnostics do not teach basic morality though; children are born without much sense of the concepts of right or wrong and need to be taught to an extent. I won’t argue with you about pursuing a woman of a different religion though, I was in love with a Muslim girl once. It ended terribly, but I know that nothing anyone would have said would have stopped me anyway, I had to try. Such is the power of emotion, so best of luck to you. Edited May 21, 2010 by SilentWitness
Lovelybird Posted May 22, 2010 Posted May 22, 2010 Atheists/ agnostics pass on their values, but the most important value they try to instill is critical thought, to not just blindly believe what others tell you to. An important distinction, as children are given much more freedom to decide for themselves how to act and live their lives. Most people follow their parent’s religion for their whole lives without really considering other beliefs, and that is a shame. Actually many people gain their belief through critical thinking, knowledge and feeling. A combination of logic and own experience with God. They have complicated experience to achieve what they believe today. For them it is a growth toward maturity toward God. If you never experienced God, you cannot say HE doesn't exist, for you, it is like "you are not sure". And you speak like you know the universe already. This is based on what logic? Throwing in phrases such as 'theoretical son' and making bantam statements as 'the assumption that people need G-d for guidance is just ignorant' drives me to believe you are nothing more than apprehensive of a false reality. People rely on logic and emotion to motivate their day to day activities. Each individual characterizes his/her belief systems... his/her morals and values on life and habitual experiences typically onset through his/her childhood and upbringing. If you wish to deviate from your values... community ideals... parental archetypes for standard living - that's your prerogative, but i'm sure those who are raised in such environments that instill the importance of these religious norms and values to everyday life... it is a whole new ideology that brings a greater depth and meaning to personify a relationship... and growth within for a more enlightened experience. And I'm sure the same applies to agnosticism and athiesm, no? I cannot say for sure as I am a child of religion and value the cultural and religious ideals of Judaism. I do however perceive this relationship as a blessing/gift from G-d and do not wish to discredit her coming into my life. I truly believe everything happens for a reason... it is the flow of the world and to find fault with it is nothing more than a pseudo-cynicism, I believe. A woman who can share every detail of her world in mine and mine in hers. to wake up next to her and not care about her morning breathe... or that she isn't wearing makeup or that she farts in bed. It's when she's looking her worst that she's truly, remarkably beautiful to ME... that's important to me. This one isn't even the typical 'hot' girl I've dated in the past.... she's very cute. This woman I'm seeing is beyond hot... because I feel a connection beyond just the physical. trust me... we've had out intimate, physical companionship sessions... but to lie there and talk about the nothingness in life and meet our own ideological reasoning on similar boundaries without severe discrepancy... I don't know... to me... she is a 15/10.... ....so have I broken up with her over my parents views/expressions of religion? NO. Do I worry about the future of my common place in my own household...? With my parents? Yes. With my community... fck no. I'm already excommunicated. **** them. I'm JUST Jewish. I don't perceive myself as reform, conservative, nor orthodox. Do I worry about my future with a reform Jew and myself? Well.. regardless of my religious affiliations.. I still engage in common practices in line with Orthodoxy. Why? Because of the care, love, compassion, and value from my upbringing. Simply because I LOVE my parents. I love their way of life. It works. My parents are happily married for 25+ years... 30.. I think. Do I want to live happily ever after? Of course. Who doesn't? Anyone who believes they are destined to be single for the remainder of their lives, by choice... are simply missing something more beautiful in this world. The chance to engage in compromise with a partner, the chance to bring new life into this world that will carry on your values, ideals... who will rebel, but ultimately find some satisfaction in why you did what you did for them. And the chance to grow old together... and have your immediate and extended family visit you on holidays... sporadically throughout the year... because in essence, what more do we have if we do not have the common place of love? Money... materialism... etc.. are all nice thoughts. They can exonerate our existence and bring some worth to our lives, but can they truly fill the voids the exist in our hearts? Temporarily... possibly. But is life worth living truly, utterly alone? No one says marriage is in the question, but having one partner to share your world with... to me, at least.. seems more than ideal. More than, to be corny, magical... it's just ... life. It's almost the natural order of things. Life... proliferation... We as humans defy natural selection and modify human outcome. We have nearly defeated mother nature's intent on the human race... but what if it was mother nature and G-d's will to deem us the knowledge and power to completely defy our genetics... our physiology... and our finite ends. Science... Religion... I'd say each provide a distinct and unique perception of the world. I am both a scientist (PhD candidate in a science related field) and a religious man (who primarily associates culturally at this time, but was raised religious). I have no qualms with my lifestyle.. and it works for me. And she, the woman I'm dating now, is content with this. So... I say... let the world turn. Our free will decisive actions dictate our outcomes. If you choose to decide to let your "heart" lead your "head" and do not foresee any problematic occurrences in your distant future... or present... then live free and die free. However, if you can perceive what I love... and cherish... and value... to step out of your own shoes and gaze beyond the paradigm of idealism vs. cynicism vs. realism... What is it that truly drives us? No one knows... but we each have our own thoughts, premonitions, ideals, values, norms, morals, wants, desires, needs, and so on.... ...what drives you? I stand by my words of former. I love my parents. I love their views and expressions. I am a strong, independent alpha male. I do cherish my parents' lives and opinions. Their interest is my BEST outcome. Where am I in my life? To sound like an arrogant, self-absorbed, conceited piece of ****... a lot further than most in regards to education and societal stature. No disrespect, but I've sacrificed a lot in my life to take the road less traveled.... does not mean I'm better than anyone else. It does mean however I view the world in a different light. To each discipline... when you're affluent in your field... you perceive and understand the world in respects to your knowledge... your understanding of the world is different. I like that thought. Good day. /rant Long post , but well said !
marsle85 Posted May 22, 2010 Posted May 22, 2010 My best friend is Jewish, and she struggles with dating as well. I definitely can sympathize, I understand how small the Jewish population is, which makes dating more difficult. That being said, I still encourage my friend to do what is right for her. Consider how hard it is for people to find love who DON'T have this burden... to me, love is love-- and cutting someone out of the picture defeats the very purpose. Follow your gut. Not your heart, not your head. Goodluck.
marsle85 Posted May 22, 2010 Posted May 22, 2010 Though I am agnostic, and also consider the purpose of religion to be based on economic and moral power of the government - it's foolish to proclaim religion pointless, or purely negative. Religion (like other faith systems) installs societally productive values in its followers, which provide communal order. Similarly, studies show faith (in nearly anything) has an overwhelming positive effect on mental and physical health.
Ruby Slippers Posted May 24, 2010 Posted May 24, 2010 Though I am agnostic, and also consider the purpose of religion to be based on economic and moral power of the government - it's foolish to proclaim religion pointless, or purely negative. Religion (like other faith systems) installs societally productive values in its followers, which provide communal order. Similarly, studies show faith (in nearly anything) has an overwhelming positive effect on mental and physical health. This is all true, but I think it would be great if humans as a species could evolve beyond the need for magic fairy dust explanations for reality. Someday we probably will.
marsle85 Posted May 24, 2010 Posted May 24, 2010 This is all true, but I think it would be great if humans as a species could evolve beyond the need for magic fairy dust explanations for reality. Someday we probably will. I hope so. I think the day is coming.
dazzle22 Posted May 24, 2010 Posted May 24, 2010 This is what I do. My parents are what I would have to say, RIDICULOUSLY religious. And nothing will ever change their minds. If I really expressed my true views (I am agnostic, leaning towards atheism, as is my husband) my mother would probably take to her 'sick bed' as she is wont to do whenever I do something she doesn't like, and likely start a long prayer chain with the two of us "lapsed believers doomed for hell" as the subject. When we are with them, which is fortunately far away from where we live, we go along with everything. Church, prayers before every friggin' meal and snack, and always murmur our assent. Then we go home and be who we really are. It is the only way I have found over 50 yrs to come to a place that is not constant futile friction and arguing.
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