Is an HJ considered adultery?

[xxoo]

The issue is that, if her only boundary that she "will not cross" is intercourse, and she doesn't consider HJ's against her morals, that leaves the door wide open for her to give any EA partner a HJ without feeling like she's comitting adultery (thus, having an affair).

 

If, while she is married to me, she gives another man HJ's, then I consider that a violation of our wedding vows.

 

Does that make sense?

 

It is one thing to say that giving a HJ to a boyfriend is ok before marriage, but intercourse is not.

 

It is another thing to say that giving a HJ to another man while married (or passionately kissing another man while married) is ok, but intercourse is not.

 

Which is she saying?

 

Yes, of course it makes sense that you would not want your wife giving other men HJs, or kissing them passionately, while married to you. Monogamous means that you have an exclusive sexual relationship, including HJs and sexual kissing.

[sally4sara]

The issue is that, if her only boundary that she "will not cross" is intercourse, and she doesn't consider HJ's against her morals, that leaves the door wide open for her to give any EA partner a HJ without feeling like she's comitting adultery (thus, having an affair).

 

If, while she is married to me, she gives another man HJ's, then I consider that a violation of our wedding vows.

 

Does that make sense?

 

So you think she will cheat on you. Why? Has she given you a reason to think she is going to do this? Something beyond what she has done with people she is in a relationship with?

[turnera]

She had an EA last year and has questionable boundaries at this point with other men.

[JamesM]

She had an EA last year and has questionable boundaries at this point with other men.

 

If we all read his other threads, then we do get a clearer picture. Perhaps he can be more helpful by posting some of the background info here.

 

She had an EA. She has been divorced three times. She has accused him of being controlling. She blew $24k in a short time. Just a few tidbits.

 

Answering some of my questions may be helpful, too.

 

Back to the question. If a HJ were given to another man while married to you, sruben, and done so without your permission, then yes, it is cheating.

[sally4sara]

If we all read his other threads, then we do get a clearer picture. Perhaps he can be more helpful by posting some of the background info here.

 

She had an EA. She has been divorced three times. She has accused him of being controlling. She blew $24k in a short time. Just a few tidbits.

 

Answering some of my questions may be helpful, too.

 

Back to the question. If a HJ were given to another man while married to you, sruben, and done so without your permission, then yes, it is cheating.

 

That makes his posts make more sense.

Three divorces can mean a lack of fortitude and, as Carhill says, a bad people picker.

Blowing money can indicate an inability to control impulse.

 

I see now why he is concerned. He should be having this talk with her to find out what her boundaries really are; we don't really know.

[turnera]

I don't believe that's the point of his question - he's not saying she's cheating. It was more to help him wrap his brain around whether she is likely to go out trolling for 'fun' and be able to say with a clear conscience (to her) that she's not cheating.

[carhill]

It was more to help him wrap his brain around whether she is likely to go out trolling for 'fun' and be able to say with a clear conscience (to her) that she's not cheating.

 

I took it that way as well, though answering in the incredulous. Why? Because I experienced such situational ethics in my own M. The William Jefferson Clinton effect. Neither gender is immune. Besides, in the case of real or potential infidelity, it's the BS who decides where the line is wrt their feelings about it, regardless of the WS rationalization of reality. Bing bang boom and done; sign here

[turnera]

Ok, well, this is why having two independent but related threads is confusing.

So... yes. A HJ is cheating. I like carhill's theory, that I think I mentioned my self previously: if you can't do it in front of your spouse, it's inappropriate.

 

However... my point still stands that it doesn't matter what kind of cheating she's doing... whether it be hj's or something else. If she's cheating, she's cheating. She can't say that she's not cheating because she doesn't think a hj is cheating. She knows better than that. She knew better when she got caught in the EA. If she knows an EA is wrong, then she surely knows that touching another man like that is wrong as well.

Actually, thanks to Mr. Clinton, today's teenagers do NOT think BJs or HJs are having sex. Believe me, I've been living with this issue with DD19's friends. "Our president SAID so." It's really sad.

[DadofTwoGirls]

It's not adultery if she cleans up after herself.

[White Flower]

 

What do you all think? Especially the (f)WW's? Does a "hand job" qualify as adultery if a woman is stroking a guy she's not married to?

 

Absolutely. It is cheating.

[lilagirl]

op - ANYTHING done in secret of your marriage with another person is adultry. Deep conversations about life, emotions, stress, etc, done repeated in a friendship you are unaware of is being unfaithful. I was having an A long before our first physical contact.

 

Rubbing arms, legs, holding hands, secret lunches, kissing, ANYTHING sexual... a hand job... TOTALLY Adultry... Its ALL unfaithful if you are not aware of it.

 

Good luck

[sruben]

Question....did your wife ever give any sort of HJ or type of sexual intimacy to a man while married to a different man?

 

I believe I said earlier that I believe she did...with H#2 prior to being married to him and prior to divorce from H#1 was final (although they were split up and the divorce was in process). She didn't admit it and I guess I didn't ask a specific enough question, but she has admitted that her relationship with H#2 began before the divorce was final, stating that "it was mostly just talking on the phone, since he lived out of town". The use of the word "mostly" begs the question of "what else was it"? Since she's told me that she doesn't think giving a guy HJ before marrying him was wrong, I think I'm pretty safe in assuming that she did so...especially since she's given HJ to me prior to marriage to admitted that she had done so with H#1, H#2 (both before being marrid to them) and her BF before H#1.

 

Have you any indication or evidence that she did anything that would be considered cheating (ie kissing or touching a man's penis) while she was married to you?

 

No evidence, other than circumstantial, and her extreme defensiveness surrounding the topic of what happened last June (lots of gaslighting, misdirection, redirection and "I don't remember"'s).

 

Were these HJs she gave to men while SHE was unmarried?

 

Most certainly. The only question was did she HJ H#2 while still legally married to H#1 (but this may be splitting hairs on my part).

 

Why did her other marriages end? If she has been married three times (including you) and had a serious BF, then why do you assume that she is going to be married to you "until death do us part?"

 

Now, or when I was courting her? When I was courting her, she had me convinced that she had just made a couple of bad choices in men and that it was their adultery that caused the marriages to end. Later I found out that wasn't exactly the case -- the adulteries were revealed after she already filed!

 

Now? I have serious doubts, but I am committed to keeping my half of that vow unless and until I find out she's a serial cheater. If that happens, I will take that as evidence that she has already left the marriage in fact, if not legally, in which case I lose nothing by making it legal.

 

Do you "allow" her to have any alone time with another male and not get worried that she is cheating?/QUOTE]

 

Well, I can't "allow" or "disallow" in that I can't and don't control her actions when I'm not present (like, all during the work day for instance, or when she goes "shopping" for hours at a time, if that's what she's really doing).

 

When we married, we agreed to let each other know if we had to have lunch alone with a member of the opposite gender. It's rare that I ever need to, but I did have a female boss that I had lunch with once, and I told her about it beforehand. It was business, and I told her what business, where, what time, etc.

 

Last year, she only told me once about this vendor from out of town, and it appears only because her ex-boss and then-current boss had seen her. That was the 2nd week he was here. She told me that she had lunch with him that day, and then "We have lunch maybe once a week while he's here" (he was here 5 weeks then that I know of, plus two in June when she made NO mention of him at all). "Maybe"? More half-truth! Was it once a week, or more? She never said another word about the guy. Also, "we have lunch"? That verb tense sounds to me like she had lunch with him at least once the previous week where she had NOT told me. Should I have been worried?

 

I wasn't at the time! In fact, I wasn't worried until after he left last week of June and I found out more, especially the things about the lingerie, new clothes, unexplained spending, etc. For seven years I trusted her implicitly. She had even told me of a couple of times guys had asked her out, having no business reason to do so. One she even accepted before I objected, then she cancelled That guy was being very obvious about his intentions...

 

Why do you assume that a man who wants to pay for her breakfast is after her body? Could it be because he is simply being kind? (Answer...yes, it can be).

 

Yes, it can be, but it's been my experience that that is the exception here where we live, not the rule.

 

[Does your wife have times throughout the day where you do not control her every activity?

 

Absolutely. How could it be any other way? Unless she were working for me, or something. Obviously I know that I can not control her or what she decides to do without me...

 

Do you trust her alone with other men?

 

I used to. Now I'm not so sure.

 

Have YOU ever cheated on her or any other woman?

 

Fair question. No, I have not. Been tempted a couple of times, even got so far as asking one her phone number (but not for me -- for a single friend who wanted to meet her, and I told her why I was asking, but I still felt weird about that. I decided that was "too close" to improper and decided never to do it again. And yes, my wife knew about that...in fact, what I was arranging was a double-date with me, my wife, this gal and my friend. I wasn't sure, but thought that this gal was might actually be interested in me, and my wife and I were not getting along at that time -- the 3 months mean thing I mentioned elsewhere -- but I knew going there was outside my boundaries as a married man)

 

The second time I can't say I was so much tempted, but it was during another time my wife and I weren't getting along for a long time, and another woman tried to tempt me. Having settled the matter in my own mind in the earlier incident, I simply chose NOT to go there, even a little bit, despite what this woman told me...

 

Thanks.

[sruben]

No, it doesn't. It seems like you are grasping at straws. Just because she did something before she was married to you, does not mean that she would do it while married to you.

 

I hope you're right...

[sruben]

It is one thing to say that giving a HJ to a boyfriend is ok before marriage, but intercourse is not.

 

It is another thing to say that giving a HJ to another man while married (or passionately kissing another man while married) is ok, but intercourse is not.

 

Which is she saying?

 

I don't know, she was too slippery for me to nail down that answer. I'd like it if I can get her to clarify. It seems to me like she was saying the latter, without really saying it. I hope I'm wrong.

 

Yes, of course it makes sense that you would not want your wife giving other men HJs, or kissing them passionately, while married to you. Monogamous means that you have an exclusive sexual relationship, including HJs and sexual kissing.

 

I agree completely!

[sruben]

There is not a person alive that doesn't think a hand job is cheating.

 

Yes....and kissing is too of course.

 

'Like many women, she feels guilty about saying "no" to what appears to be a polite offer"

 

This is an insult to woman (and i am a guy).

 

I didn't say ALL women, I said many -- as in many women have told me that they'll accept a date with a guy even if they're not interested because they don't want to hurt his feelings...but they have no intention of forming any kind of long-term relationship with them. Many women have told me this. My wife told me that she accepted that one guy's lunch invitation because she has a hard time saying no, think's it's impolite. I knew as a guy that this particular individual was PURSUING her, not merely being polite.

 

A polite offer like..... 'how bout a hand job?". Most woman can reject this quite easily.

 

Agreed, and I never meant to imply otherwise. I think you just read into what I was actually saying.

 

Ask your wife this question. DO YOU THINK A HAND JOB IS CHEATIN?

 

Who cares what we think.

 

Again, you are getting off the subject with this stuff...her exes, old boyfriends etc. You need to focus on what is happening DURING your relationship.

 

Agreed, and I think I will ask it that explicitly next time we talk about this.

[sruben]

If we all read his other threads, then we do get a clearer picture. Perhaps he can be more helpful by posting some of the background info here.

 

She had an EA. She has been divorced three times. She has accused him of being controlling. She blew $24k in a short time. Just a few tidbits.

 

Answering some of my questions may be helpful, too.

 

Back to the question. If a HJ were given to another man while married to you, sruben, and done so without your permission, then yes, it is cheating.

 

Like I would give her permission? About as likely as her giving me permission to get BJ's from other women. As in, not!

[sruben]

Ok, fine. But that doesn't mean she is currently having an affair. He has no proof, only suspicions. And because he has suspicions, he thinks it must be so. I personally think that is overreaching.

 

He posted on the other thread that she is direct depositing her check into her own account. To me, that says she wants some financial freedom, and to be a little less under his thumb. It doesn't say to me that she is cheating. And because she is being more independent, he is taking that as cheating, when it's most certainly may not be.

 

Point is... he can't trust her, he questions every little move she makes, and maybe she's tired of it. I posted on the other thread that the possible reason she many be direct depositing her paycheck is because she is planning to leave. I still stand by that. Especially is she is a serial divorcee.

 

Her sneaking around may not be because of an affair, it may be because she's planning her getaway.

 

I don't believe that she is currently having an affair. After a fight we had last week because I'd scheduled an appt with an IC, she decided (again, unilaterally, but I didn't protest) to change the DD on her paycheck back to the joint account.

 

Just an update, since I had posted that to the other thread.

 

And it wasn't the decision to DD her paycheck into her own account that triggered me. It was that it was unilateral, and even more because of the comment that "because it didn't exactly work out well last time" when she's always told me that I manage the money well. During our fight last week, she denied having said that, couldn't even comprehend what that would mean, and accused me of having made it up. I didn't make it up because that exact phrase is what triggered me back into suspicion mode. I can spell it out: What didn't exactly work out last time is that I tried to hold her accountable for where she spent $24K and she wouldn't come clean about it.

[sruben]

That makes his posts make more sense.

Three divorces can mean a lack of fortitude and, as Carhill says, a bad people picker.

Blowing money can indicate an inability to control impulse.

 

I see now why he is concerned. He should be having this talk with her to find out what her boundaries really are; we don't really know.

 

I'm working on it, and IC is working with me to stop obsessing about it. You all realize I'm obsessing, right?

 

My problem there is that my brian is wired to solve puzzles, and she's given me a big one with several missing pieces...

[sruben]

I don't believe that's the point of his question - he's not saying she's cheating. It was more to help him wrap his brain around whether she is likely to go out trolling for 'fun' and be able to say with a clear conscience (to her) that she's not cheating.

 

Exactly!

 

While I haven't agreed with everything you've posted, you nailed this one!

[Mimolicious]

SRUBER- Do you just want us to confirm that your W is cheating on you?

 

To perform any extramarital sexual activity. It is adultery. Plain and simple. Someone said "hugging, rubbing legs" unfortunately it is not. Not in the court of law. Although the legal definition of "adultery" differs in nearly every legal system, the common theme is sexual activity outside of marriage.

 

If you are dating and going around town doing the nasty... you are not committing adultery. You are cheating and being a h*e. Plain and simple.

[sruben]

Actually, thanks to Mr. Clinton, today's teenagers do NOT think BJs or HJs are having sex. Believe me, I've been living with this issue with DD19's friends. "Our president SAID so." It's really sad.

 

Yes, I was trying to get a feel for what ADULTS think about the topic. I'm all too aware of what anyone under, say, 25 thinks about it because of Mr Clinton! Oh, and by the way, today when people say Monica Lewinski, they're thinking handbags...according to Monica. Yeah, that's what I think of, right away! ;-)