From Friendship to a Relationship

[counterman]

So, it turns out the girl I thought I was "dating" considered us to be "hanging out".

 

When I asked her out, I made it pretty clear by using the word "date".

 

What really stumped me was when I asked her about all this and she says that she doesn't really date people she doesn't know. She has a friendship with them first and if anything develops, then she would date but, with people she barely knows, she wouldn't date. For me, when I date someone I get to know them as well, and it is because I am interested in them.

 

I made it clear that I don't date my girl friends and since she has a lot of guy friends it makes me think that any of them can have a chance with her. It's kind of lame because it is often said that a guy should man up and ask a girl out before getting friendzoned. It seems with her that getting friendzoned might help a guy get together with her.

 

She says she wouldn't know if she likes a guy before she becomes friends with him, but there must be some sort of interest right? Well, I asked her to decide whether she could see anything developing romantically between us and she said that she wouldn't know. But, honestly, I don't think she was that interested.

 

In the end, I think it was made clear that things wouldn't happened. As much fun as it would have been to "hang out", I can't continue doing it knowing that she feels that we're just "friends".

 

I thought she was interested in me. I mean, she never pulled away when I went in to kiss her cheek, but I guess she's just that comfortable around guys.

 

Recently, one of my friends got together with his closest girl friend. The girl I thought I was dating brought this up, and says that's what she would consider, being friends first then dating.

 

I really did want to get to know her more, but knowing that my feelings could develop and hers not, I just chose to cancel our date coming up.

 

If she changes her mind, I don't think I"ll be going out with her.

 

What do you guys think about this? Should I have continued to "hang out" with her?

[Frog in Love]

social butterfly she is. dont be to serious on this

[counterman]

so, what do you think I should do?

[Tim The Enchanter]

so, what do you think I should do?

 

Get out of there. I think you wasted time by hanging around her, trying to befriend her. There's a golden rule in dating that says you should not try to be friends with someone that you are interested in. She said that she doesn't date guys she doesn't know, but can you imagine her turning down a Brad Pitt lookalike who chats her up in a bar or something?

 

By allowing yourself to be friendzoned, you're effectively empowering a woman to keep you in her pool of potential suitors. Then when the time is right for her, she simply dips into it and takes her pick. If you don't want to be one of those guys, don't waste time being her "friend".

[counterman]

Get out of there. I think you wasted time by hanging around her, trying to befriend her. There's a golden rule in dating that says you should not try to be friends with someone that you are interested in. She said that she doesn't date guys she doesn't know, but can you imagine her turning down a Brad Pitt lookalike who chats her up in a bar or something?

 

By allowing yourself to be friendzoned, you're effectively empowering a woman to keep you in her pool of potential suitors. Then when the time is right for her, she simply dips into it and takes her pick. If you don't want to be one of those guys, don't waste time being her "friend".

 

I agree with you.

 

I just have to deal with the heartache that I am feeling currently.

[phineas]

Get out of there. I think you wasted time by hanging around her, trying to befriend her. There's a golden rule in dating that says you should not try to be friends with someone that you are interested in. She said that she doesn't date guys she doesn't know, but can you imagine her turning down a Brad Pitt lookalike who chats her up in a bar or something?

 

By allowing yourself to be friendzoned, you're effectively empowering a woman to keep you in her pool of potential suitors. Then when the time is right for her, she simply dips into it and takes her pick. If you don't want to be one of those guys, don't waste time being her "friend".

 

Exactly.

She's interested but she's got her eye set on someone else & has back burnered you.

 

Don't let her do that.

 

I've been one of those guys before.

 

NOW, I don't pay their way when we "hang-out" & I don't make them a priority in my life.

 

I treat them like my other friends.

I know exactly what is going on in these situations & it's makes it very easy for me not to get attached.

 

Also, %99.9 of the time, as soon as another woman starts getting my attention & it looks like I might get with her, they want me.

 

%50 of those tell me they "want to take it slow" I've learned that means "you only pay attention to me & i'll agree to be your GF who doesn't have sex with you then cheat/dump you until someone better comes along."

 

Essentially their not psyically attracted to me but they like me paying attention to them.

 

So now if they want to take it slow I tell them i'm not interested in taking it slow & go with the the woman that prompted them to want to date me & tell them we can still be just friends.

 

Far as i'm concerned, all the hanging out is time served when it comes to the time between first official date & sex.

 

The women friends that really did want a relationship made it very clear to me they didn't want to be just friends very quickly.

[carhill]

OP, imagine the dynamic you value and appreciate *from* a close male friend. The shared interests; the mutual humor and commiserations; the 'identifying' with you. Have you ever gotten this from a 'female friend'? If yes, kudos; you found a special lady friend. My guess is not. If not, she's not a friend, but is merely using you for your interest, attention and validation. Accept that. Move on. The key is balance. Right now, do you *feel* balance? Think about that.

[somedude81]

How many times did you hang out? Have you tried to get physical with her?

 

I thought she was interested in me. I mean, she never pulled away when I went in to kiss her cheek, but I guess she's just that comfortable around guys.

Is that all you've tried to do with her? Was it a hello/goodbye kiss on the cheek?

[TaurusTerp]

^

Important questions that need to be answered. How many dates have you gone on without even kissing her (cheek kisses dont count).

 

Sounds like some BS excuse because she's not interested.

[ADF]

It is so hard to know what this woman is really thinking, to tell whether or not she is being honest with you. She may mean it about wanting to be friends first. Or she may just not be interested and too chicken to say so outright.

 

"Friends first" is a mantra many women use, and I suppose in makes sense in theory. But it is often a disaster in practice. The reason is because most unattached women hae a large number interested in them at the same time. If a man moes too slowly, tries to be "friends first," he will most likely get knocked aside by another guy who is more aggressie.

 

You did nothing wrong, and I think you're right not to torture yourself by trying to remain friends with a woman who rejected you. Rejection hurts.

[carhill]

I always enjoy the elusive, distant boyfriend. Do they look like a loving couple? Enjoy the requisite cruise embarkation photos? In other words, have you ever seen this guy?

 

I was an orbiter like this on a number of occasions in my younger life. Even got sucked in once in recent times, a carryover from those younger, unhealthy years. Don't be an orbiter. You're likely to collide with other orbiters and become smoking meteor craters in the desert wasteland of unrequited love.

 

Tell your friend you're looking to meet new ladies and would appreciate any introductions. In fact, suggest that you go out with her and some of her single female friends as 'friends'. It's all good

[sagetalk]

 

"Friends first" is a mantra many women use, and I suppose in makes sense in theory. But it is often a disaster in practice. The reason is because most unattached women hae a large number interested in them at the same time. If a man moes too slowly, tries to be "friends first," he will most likely get knocked aside by another guy who is more aggressie.

 

This happened to me with a very awesome girl. Friends first my behind, I am so gullible sometimes .

[phineas]

I always enjoy the elusive, distant boyfriend. Do they look like a loving couple? Enjoy the requisite cruise embarkation photos? In other words, have you ever seen this guy?

 

I was an orbiter like this on a number of occasions in my younger life. Even got sucked in once in recent times, a carryover from those younger, unhealthy years. Don't be an orbiter. You're likely to collide with other orbiters and become smoking meteor craters in the desert wasteland of unrequited love.

 

Tell your friend you're looking to meet new ladies and would appreciate any introductions. In fact, suggest that you go out with her and some of her single female friends as 'friends'. It's all good

 

I also had this problem once shortly after seperation.

That chick is history now.

 

It seems every time my STBXW tries giving me an anurism through her divorce games my tolerance for female generated BS diminishes & I "loose" another female "friend's" number LOL!

 

The latest? "maybe" girl. "maybe we can do this on this day" then that day comes & she either falls off the face of the earth or she texts a cancelation last minute. BAH!

She'd have to litterally show up on my door looking for sex before I wasted any more time interacting with her.

 

which means she is history now also.

[carhill]

She doesn't have many female friends.

 

Beware of any woman who has few female friends, and any man who has few male friends, but rather has predominantly friends of the opposite gender. I had this issue, relating better to women than men, and it not only affected healthy romantic relationships and my marriage, but left a chasm of social health within my own intra-gender relationships.

 

Yes I've seen him, he's real.

 

Glad to hear. I generally get to BBQ with female friend's BF's or perhaps go fishing with them. This past weekend I consulted on a medical device with the husband of one. You know, those kinds of interactions. Friend interactions. Open and transparent interactions. How's that going for you?

[USMCHokie]

Counterman, this girl has a very immature approach to dating...that whole "getting to know the guy first" through friendship is a load of bullsh*t...isn't the dating process in itself getting to know someone before you decide to be in a relationship with them?!

 

I'd run far and fast...she isn't worth the time or effort to even get to know...and I feel sorry for all those guy friends she does have who are waiting for their shot...poor idiots...

 

But like phineas said, sounds like she's really not all that interested...

[deebeechrisyo]

Counterman, this girl has a very immature approach to dating...that whole "getting to know the guy first" through friendship is a load of bullsh*t...isn't the dating process in itself getting to know someone before you decide to be in a relationship with them?!

 

This is very true! Unfortunately once you decide that you have a great girl, the honeymoon phase ends. I think the girl assumes you two are in a relationship even if you have only been on a few dates.

 

This girl sounds like she doesn't want to date you. "Getting to know the guy first" is an excuse, just a way to reject you. I guarantee all of her "friends" she ended up dating probably had girlfriends first, and got with her as soon as their prior relationship ended.

[phineas]

i guarantee all of her "friends" she ended up dating probably had girlfriends first, and got with her as soon as their prior relationship ended.

 

ding! Ding! Ding!

[sagetalk]

I guarantee all of her "friends" she ended up dating probably had girlfriends first, and got with her as soon as their prior relationship ended.

 

Unbelievable, I can't believe I never thought about that. Great insight there.

[carhill]

Why is that? What's wrong with a female with lots of male friends or vice-versa?

'Predominance' with the opposite gender indicates an inability/disinterest/incapacity to connect with, socialize with and maintain relationships with one's own gender. Essentially, one comes to rely on the cross-gender (this presumes heterosexual preference) sexual/emotional dynamics to provide part of the functional framework of the friendships. For myself, it was the emotional dynamics; for women, the sexual ones. I can see how this stunted the development of aspects of my personality necessary to properly attract a healthy female mate. In essence, I became 'one of the gals'. In the female friendships I've observed, my unhealthy love interest amongst them, the 'orbiters', meaning 'male friends' whom were friends due to strong sexual signals from the woman, became her social circle of unequals, where, if she had girlfriends instead or in addition, there would be a whole different, more equal, dynamic and she would learn/augment the skills to properly attract a healthy male mate. Due to the nature of sexual dynamics, the women never lacked for sexual partners but it appeared the rest of the relationship was often 'rocky'. The same was true for myself. I never lacked for female friends but was unable to pursue and attract a healthy (and compatible) female mate and had difficulties, even extending to my marriage, in maintaining those relationships.

 

The key aspect in my assertion is 'few friends of the same gender' versus 'lots of cross-gender friends'. A person can have lots of friends of *both* genders, but, IMO, when their friendships tend to align with the gender they're most attracted to and attract sexually *and* exclude the other, it bears scrutiny. Even in a bi-sexual person, there is generally a clear gender 'preference', which would apply.

 

On-topic, I would not consider a 'friends first' woman as a potential *unless* I saw evidence of clear and close female friendships *and* she treated me with the *same* friendship quality and quantity she expected and desired. I made use of this boundary in a recent dating experience and discontinued it as a result.

[carhill]

As long as the person is mature and understanding of their emotions I see nothing wrong with it <having cross-gender friends>.

I agree with this but attempted, in the face of challenges from our psychologist and posters here on LS, to find an alternative understanding. I'm now watching these cross-gender 'friendships' more closely to see what explanation/methodology more closely relates to my real life experiences. So far, TBH, it's a mixed bag.

 

Same quality and quantity she expected to be desired? In other words you were only "friends first" if they reciprocated the same emotions you were giving them. (You didn't want an emotional vampire, someone looking to be flattered, given attention to at her beck and call, and then thrown away like some used paper bag...am I correct?) And they had to have clear/close female friendships as well? That part I don't understand. I fail to see how having close female friends makes her more "stable".

A coarse example of an incompatible 'friend's first' potential would be one who uses her sexuality to gain favor but returns little with regard to authentic friendship behaviors like mutual care, empathy and interest. I'll use an example to illustrate. I'm very open about my role as a caregiver (mom's demented) and I'm openly interested in and empathetic to those others of my age group similarly affected, or just dealing with older parents in general. If a woman shows little interest in casual sharing of a day's event, or never asks 'carhill, how's mom doing?' or 'carhill, how are you holding up? It must be a challenge being a caregiver', etc., then I'm not *feeling* any friendship on terms which are meaningful to me. At this point in my life, I don't care if the other person sees things that way or not. I lived in that vacuum for a ten year marriage. I'll never, ever, ever make that mistake again. It's my canary in the coal mine; the little things which make up friendships and 'friends-first', which I'm actually a proponent of, even though such has failed me miserably in the past. I'll apply a new people-picker and hopefully healthier results will obtain.

 

My apologies for the verbosity. I try to give detailed responses. Sometimes, it gets too detailed. I do use paragraphs

Edited May 18, 2010 by carhill

[counterman]

I never thought of some of the perspectives you guys have provided. Very insightful!

 

With the kissing and physicality, I kissed on right next to the lips. I think I could have kissed her on the lips but didn't because...well you know. We've hugged. I've had my hand up and down her back. I think the main difference was that I was doing all those things. She wasn't initiating any physical contact.

 

I should say this though. I've asked some of my girl friends about this and from the observations I have made, the overwhelming majority of them were friends with their partners before getting together with them. They "hung out" and then went on to dating. It might be a cultural thing here, because some of my friends prefer being friends first then dating. A lot of girls I know like this approach. But yes, isn't dating getting to know someone? I would rather get to know someone new than just fall for a friend.

 

One of my friends said that she wasn't friends with her ex-boyfriends first and they all ended up being shams and jerks. So, now she would rather be friends first.

 

I do agree that she's not interested and, if she is, it's very slight. In saying that, she made it clear before all this happened that I could hang out with her anytime. I'll take it as a plus that she's willing to spend her time with me BUT I wouldn't have given her any special attention or go out of my way to please her. She would be treated exactly like one of my friends. I do not want to be in the pool of potential dates, so if she ever just change her mind, I'll say no.

 

I've heard about her ex-boyfriends and she has had heaps of them. ALL were friends with her before they started dating. But you may be right. They might have been in a relationship then broke up and got together with her.

 

This girl is a friend of some of my friends. I do enjoy talking to her but it has become awkward, to the point I think she will avoid contact with me. So, I want your opinions on my decision.

 

I am seeing her next week because we have a class together. I will be fun and casual, like normal before all this happened, and show her that it's okay that we talk. But, I won't hang out with her or anything and I will continue to date other girls. If she wants to hang out, we'll hang out but I won't treat her as a date (bare in mind, if won't do this if I still like her).

 

What do you guys think?

[carhill]

What do you guys think?

 

Tasked to shut up about myself, I'll ask:

 

How do *you* feel about the interactions so far? If the interaction and interest is *satisfying* and feels *healthy* to you, that is reason enough to feel positive about the future, IMO.

 

Here's my 'but'....

 

She wasn't initiating any physical contact.

 

This bothers *me*. YMMV. I call it the 'beer' test. 'Woman, give me a reason to not be at my best friend's having a beer'. Batting eyelashes and clicking stilettos do not count. That's my 02.

[counterman]

The interactions so far feel fine. There's interest in what I have been doing and about my life. Bantering and chatting together is pretty sweet as well.

 

This bothers *me*. YMMV. I call it the 'beer' test. 'Woman, give me a reason to not be at my best friend's having a beer'. Batting eyelashes and clicking stilettos do not count. That's my 02.

 

I'm sorry, I don't really understand what you mean here. May you please elaborate?

[carhill]

I love my best friend. We tell each other we love each other regularly. He's saved my life. A woman has to really impress me with her interest and attention to overcome my inclination to head over to his house for a beer. If I'm not *feeling it* from her, both emotionally and physically (note here I'm not saying sexually; there is a difference), then I'm going for the beer and she's nexted. That's my perspective, my two cents worth (.02).

 

You necessarily have different criteria and *feel* differently. If you're asking these questions, this leads me to believe you haven't experienced a woman being truly 'into' you, even if modest in her expressions of affection. Trust me, you know. Even if it's 'fake', kind of like some women 'fake' orgasms, it's so far removed from 'well, I'm not sure, let me examine this' that they're not even in the same universe.

 

Remember, I'm the reserved guy who was a virgin until 35. I don't do 'slutty' and have had plenty of opportunities. I like reserved, 'proper' ladies and know their behaviors. The difference is, with experience, I can better discern the passion in the proper. It's there. Are you getting that message from her? Proper passion? If not, meh... up to you.

[counterman]

I love my best friend. We tell each other we love each other regularly. He's saved my life. A woman has to really impress me with her interest and attention to overcome my inclination to head over to his house for a beer. If I'm not *feeling it* from her, both emotionally and physically (note here I'm not saying sexually; there is a difference), then I'm going for the beer and she's nexted. That's my perspective, my two cents worth (.02).

 

You necessarily have different criteria and *feel* differently. If you're asking these questions, this leads me to believe you haven't experienced a woman being truly 'into' you, even if modest in her expressions of affection. Trust me, you know. Even if it's 'fake', kind of like some women 'fake' orgasms, it's so far removed from 'well, I'm not sure, let me examine this' that they're not even in the same universe.

 

Remember, I'm the reserved guy who was a virgin until 35. I don't do 'slutty' and have had plenty of opportunities. I like reserved, 'proper' ladies and know their behaviors. The difference is, with experience, I can better discern the passion in the proper. It's there. Are you getting that message from her? Proper passion? If not, meh... up to you.

 

No, I have never had someone truly into me.

 

I understand where you are coming from. I don't think she would pass the "beer test". Plus, I don't really feel the dynamics is quite healthy.

 

She gets a lot of attention from other guys already. I think I may be one of them that has stopped giving her attention. She did say that she didn't want me to think that I was wasting time with her. I did also find her a good listener because she could remember trivial details about what I said. But, I am like that with everyone.

 

What does everyone else think?

 

To be honest, after that situation happened, I don't think she wants anything to do with me. I am definitely not going to force it. But, avoiding contact is not possible and is not what I do anyways.

 

I'll just go back to as though nothing has happened. Is that a good idea?