Wondering...

[StoptheDrama]

why I held on for as long as I did. I was reading another post and it brought me back to not so long ago when I was still trying to believe in my xMM. Why after all the lies, games, deceit, and other related nonsense did I still want to believe the best in him? Was it ego - I didn't want to believe I had been played so well and for so long? Was it because I cared for him? A combination of the two?? Just really wondering why we do this to ourselves...

[secretlady76]

why I held on for as long as I did. I was reading another post and it brought me back to not so long ago when I was still trying to believe in my xMM. Why after all the lies, games, deceit, and other related nonsense did I still want to believe the best in him? Was it ego - I didn't want to believe I had been played so well and for so long? Was it because I cared for him? A combination of the two?? Just really wondering why we do this to ourselves...

 

...Because of how it made you feel when it was good, that is why you stuck it out. Despite the pain it caused you when it was crap, it was worth bearing for the times when it was wonderful,. The wonderful bits are addictive, you want them more and more and you will wade through all the crap just for the moments of 'paradise'. It's only afterwards that you look back and think 'WTF was I thinking'?????!!!!!!

[Fieldsofgold]

...Because of how it made you feel when it was good, that is why you stuck it out. Despite the pain it caused you when it was crap, it was worth bearing for the times when it was wonderful,. The wonderful bits are addictive, you want them more and more and you will wade through all the crap just for the moments of 'paradise'. It's only afterwards that you look back and think 'WTF was I thinking'?????!!!!!!

 

It's interesting that you put it that way. It reminds me of a research paper I once did on domestic violence against women. There is a similar pattern there: there is the abuse incident, then the "making up" and honeymoon period, then the tension builds until the next battering incident, then the cycle repeats itself. It's a well-known, well-documented and well-recognized cycle. They say that women stay for years, because the "honeymoon" phase is so wonderful.

 

Not terribly unlike what you have suggested here. Maybe many of these affairs end up being a form of emotional abuse.

 

Maybe we stay for the same sad reasons battered women stay.

[alg24]

I think the same thing... Despite the fact my exMM was a real out of control jerk.. .But I wonder... I saw the times it was good and I wanted it back. I really cared for him and it was hard to let go..

[pureinheart]

Mosty of the replies here speak of the "good times"...searching my heart I find the same thing...it sounds a lot like "Traumatic Bonding". Anyone conure?

[pureinheart]

It's interesting that you put it that way. It reminds me of a research paper I once did on domestic violence against women. There is a similar pattern there: there is the abuse incident, then the "making up" and honeymoon period, then the tension builds until the next battering incident, then the cycle repeats itself. It's a well-known, well-documented and well-recognized cycle. They say that women stay for years, because the "honeymoon" phase is so wonderful.

 

Not terribly unlike what you have suggested here. Maybe many of these affairs end up being a form of emotional abuse.

 

Maybe we stay for the same sad reasons battered women stay.

 

Skimmed over replies and see you do see the abuse pattern...makes a lot of sense to me...and if you look into their lives, they are abusive people period...with everyone.

[Susmay]

It's interesting that you put it that way. It reminds me of a research paper I once did on domestic violence against women. There is a similar pattern there: there is the abuse incident, then the "making up" and honeymoon period, then the tension builds until the next battering incident, then the cycle repeats itself. It's a well-known, well-documented and well-recognized cycle. They say that women stay for years, because the "honeymoon" phase is so wonderful.

 

Not terribly unlike what you have suggested here. Maybe many of these affairs end up being a form of emotional abuse.

 

Maybe we stay for the same sad reasons battered women stay.

 

Does this cycle exist in other situations does anyone know? The reason I say this is that my H had an A and I found out about it nearly 2 years ago. Initially I genuinely had no idea what to do; stay or go. He begged for forgiveness and we went through a phase where we had almost constant sex. This went on for months. We are settled into a more normal routine now maybe 2 or 3 times a week which is still far more than it was pre-A.

 

The thing is that I still have moments where I wonder if I'm doing the right thing in staying. if I express them then we have a heated discussion about it often with me crying and him begging to stay together with all the accompanying declarations of undying love and fidelity for me. We then have a sort of honeymoon period with lots of affection and intimacy (and sex of course). When this starts to wane I have another period of doubt and back it all starts again.

 

This sounds like a rather similar cycle. I guess I just wonder if me expressing my doubts can be called an "abuse incident" - it seems to be the trigger, but is it abusive of me? I am still in genuine pain.

[StoptheDrama]

Skimmed over replies and see you do see the abuse pattern...makes a lot of sense to me...and if you look into their lives, they are abusive people period...with everyone.

 

 

Thanks for the reponses and insight, ladies This has produced some very interesting insight and now has me wondering how many OW/OM (present or former) were abused previously... How many were abused as children (like me) or in previous relationships?? I wonder if there have ever been studies done on this.... If we can equate the negative behavior during an A with abuse, how many of us are repeating past incidents.... Have our lives become a pattern??...

[pureinheart]

Does this cycle exist in other situations does anyone know? The reason I say this is that my H had an A and I found out about it nearly 2 years ago. Initially I genuinely had no idea what to do; stay or go. He begged for forgiveness and we went through a phase where we had almost constant sex. This went on for months. We are settled into a more normal routine now maybe 2 or 3 times a week which is still far more than it was pre-A.

 

The thing is that I still have moments where I wonder if I'm doing the right thing in staying. if I express them then we have a heated discussion about it often with me crying and him begging to stay together with all the accompanying declarations of undying love and fidelity for me. We then have a sort of honeymoon period with lots of affection and intimacy (and sex of course). When this starts to wane I have another period of doubt and back it all starts again.

 

This sounds like a rather similar cycle. I guess I just wonder if me expressing my doubts can be called an "abuse incident" - it seems to be the trigger, but is it abusive of me? I am still in genuine pain.

 

SM...in bold I am wondering if you are being set up in some way, can't quite put this into words although some people are very manipulative.

 

You should be able to express how you feel/felt no matter what. I think it's rather odd that "heated discussions" are a result of your expression.

 

The more I think about it, he could be keeping this cycle going...you may not notice the manipulation SM...I didn't, I don't look for it as I take things at face value for the mostpart. Thinking it's very sad that I have to watch for this....

[pureinheart]

Thanks for the reponses and insight, ladies This has produced some very interesting insight and now has me wondering how many OW/OM (present or former) were abused previously... How many were abused as children (like me) or in previous relationships?? I wonder if there have ever been studies done on this.... If we can equate the negative behavior during an A with abuse, how many of us are repeating past incidents.... Have our lives become a pattern??...

 

I was abused a great deal...they see us coming and we are more than ready????

[Lovelybird]

You all sound like you are slaves or zombies, or victims who don't have a will.

 

I think it is because concentrating on the intense drama helps you ignore your own issues, painful issues that you don't want to look at.

 

I've heard that a person will seek out another with similar personal growth level. A "good" girl seek out a "jerk", because the "good" girl know deep inside she isn't all that good, and that jerk makes her feel at home.

 

We are strongly motivated by the unfinished business, and most of us believe if we conquer that, we can be more complete. But many choose self-destructive ways. we are not stumpled by love, but all kinds of negative traits of our own.

 

and another reason, jerks are exciting, plain and simple. Jerks are extremely charming, they can be pitiful, loving, abusive, gentle and crass, all at the same time, jerks are humans too, only with severe issues. If anyone is with a jerk like this, she doesn't have time to consider her own boring life or seek ways to improve herself, she is on a great mission, not change herself but change him

Edited May 16, 2010 by Lovelybird

[Susmay]

You all sound like you are slaves or zombies, or victims who don't have a will.

 

Well thanks, you seem to have insulted both the OW and BW who have replied on this thread.

 

I think it is because concentrating on the intense drama helps you ignore your own issues, painful issues that you don't want to look at.

 

I think you are mistaken. My H's affair is about the most painful thing that has ever happened to me. it has caused me to focus on my own issues and that has been a painful process.

 

I've heard that a person will seek out another with similar personal growth level. A "good" girl seek out a "jerk", because the "good" girl know deep inside she isn't all that good, and that jerk makes her feel at home.

 

Maybe, maybe not, but I don't think my H and I can be so simply boxed as "good girl" and "jerk".

 

We are strongly motivated by the unfinished business, and most of us believe if we conquer that, we can be more complete. But many choose self-destructive ways. we are not stumpled by love, but all kinds of negative traits of our own.

 

I agree about the unfinished business - it does explain the common desire for "closure" that sometimes never happens.

 

and another reason, jerks are exciting, plain and simple. Jerks are extremely charming, they can be pitiful, loving, abusive, gentle and crass, all at the same time. If anyone is with a jerk like this, she doesn't have time to consider her own boring life or seek ways to improve herself, she is on a great mission, not change herself but change him

 

My H will have to have sufficient motivation to change himself at least to the extent that he doesn't betray me again. He and I both already know the consequences of further transgressions painful as they may be.

 

Some in this thread speculate that previous abuse has perhaps made them more accustomed to the cycles. I have never been abused before. What my H did represented a severe abuse of my trust in him. Something that may never fully recover. But this strange cycle we are undergoing is a new experience for me.

[Lovelybird]

I am talking about people who knows the man is married, but still go ahead fall in love with him, I wonder where is their will at the very beginning. It seems to me that they bump their head on a wall, and wonder why later it hurts.

 

Also their choices can break the cycles, but many here don't seem to use their will, as if their only role is to be a victim, as if they have arms but never use it.

 

PS. I do think what you are doing is very energy draining. but maybe this is your need to connect with him, to detect where is his heart? but there could be better ways to do this

Edited May 16, 2010 by Lovelybird

[pureinheart]

Hey thought this might be helpful..while narcissism may not be the issue, some of the things listed give much insight and help with staying focused and grounded

 

 

http://narcissism-support.blogspot.com/2009/01/ten-steps-to-freedom-from-narcissists.html

[pureinheart]

I am talking about people who knows the man is married, but still go ahead fall in love with him, I wonder where is their will at the very beginning. It seems to me that they bump their head on a wall, and wonder why later it hurts.

 

Also their choices can break the cycles, but many here don't seem to use their will, as if their only role is to be a victim, as if they have arms but never use it.

 

PS. I do think what you are doing is very energy draining. but maybe this is your need to connect with him, to detect where is his heart? but there could be better ways to do this

 

Hi LB ((((hugs)))). I went to a marriage restoration group at my church back in 93...the purpose was first to restore your relationship with God, then work on the marriage.

 

They councelled that we could have a good marriage regardless of what the spouse is doing or not doing...we were responsible for ourselves period, and to deal with ourselves and our own issues and let the spouse do the same.

 

It was quite effective as the couples in our group used to blame each other. When we focus on ourselves there is little time to blame another...this teaching has made a big difference in my life...had I not been through this grueling process I'd be in some REALLY bad shape today as this can be used in any situation. I became responsible and find it difficult to blame another if I have messed up also.

[jj33]

Great point PIH. But in these situatoins I think its important to remember that sometimes being responsible means getting yourself out of a situation.

 

An A is different than a marriage. You havnt made vows to stay there forever regardless of how a person is treating you.

 

Reading many of the stories on the board a "victim mentality" often keeps people in the A. Taking responsibility would mean saying this is not working for me, this person only treats me this way because I let them, Im getting out of this relationship.

 

And it is OK to blame if you blame on the way out - I dont like the way this person is treating me, I am out.

[Fieldsofgold]

This is a very Interesting discussion, something I want to think about today, and get back to later.

[Fieldsofgold]

I will chip in about my background. I did grow up in a severely (emotional - really just crazy) abusive home. I learned very early on to accept the unacceptable, even to love the abusers (my parents), because that's what small children do. There was always high drama in my home, day and night. I spent a lot of my young life just trying to keep loved ones alive. I married an abuser/SC. I, by nature (or conditioning), am very calm and steady. When I lived alone, I became depressed. At some point I realized that I am an excitement junkie. When things are calm and peaceful, when there is no drama, I felt numb inside. Maybe even unneeded. (I was a GREAT emergency room nurse) fifteen years of counseling helped. I have learned to get my excitement fix from other sources (working for civil rights, creating a business, working with teens, etc.).

 

I can see how my background could lend itself to dealing with the usual terms and conditions of an A.

 

Hope this is not TMI

[Lovelybird]

Hi LB ((((hugs)))). I went to a marriage restoration group at my church back in 93...the purpose was first to restore your relationship with God, then work on the marriage.

 

They councelled that we could have a good marriage regardless of what the spouse is doing or not doing...we were responsible for ourselves period, and to deal with ourselves and our own issues and let the spouse do the same.

 

It was quite effective as the couples in our group used to blame each other. When we focus on ourselves there is little time to blame another...this teaching has made a big difference in my life...had I not been through this grueling process I'd be in some REALLY bad shape today as this can be used in any situation. I became responsible and find it difficult to blame another if I have messed up also.

Hi pureinheart , you are right, our attitude is very important.

 

I believe there are two or maybe three self in us. One is genuine self, another one is worldly self. The worldly self picked the dark spirit somewhere, either from childhood, or from previous marriage. The dark spirit makes one feel satisfied in dark things or self-destructive things, and that's why people come back again and again because the dark spirit make them believe the self-destructive things are good for them--playing their mind; but the genuine one knows that isn't right and that hurts. And if this person learns to be led by the right spirit, and learn to be satisfied in good things, then probably this person will overcome the dark spirit or dark patterns.

 

Sometimes I do feel it is about the war of the dark spirit and bright spirit. and it depends on us to be close to which one from moment to moment.

Edited May 16, 2010 by Lovelybird

[ladydesigner]

Thanks for the reponses and insight, ladies This has produced some very interesting insight and now has me wondering how many OW/OM (present or former) were abused previously... How many were abused as children (like me) or in previous relationships?? I wonder if there have ever been studies done on this.... If we can equate the negative behavior during an A with abuse, how many of us are repeating past incidents.... Have our lives become a pattern??...

 

 

Yes I was abused as a child, raped in high school, and had an abusive relationship. I also had an A with XOM. While I do not think my relationship with XOM would be considered abusive in anyway. The way it ended and how I was spoken to and treated by XOM during our LC "friends stage" I would consider not very nice as he said very confusing things to me that we not "friendship-like" more "affair-like" and I considered that to be emotionally abusive and manipulative. I finally ended the friendship and went NC and have not heard one word from him since except to add him as a contact on LinkedIn (which I did initially but have since removed him as a contact).

 

I think the pattern lies in if we still see ourselves as the VICTIM and I refuse to be a victim any longer. I will not allow anyone to abuse me or to take advantage of me or my emotions hence the NC I initiated. Once my line of boundary of abuse gets crossed, there really is no getting back on my good side again.

[StoptheDrama]

Yes I was abused as a child, raped in high school, and had an abusive relationship. I also had an A with XOM. While I do not think my relationship with XOM would be considered abusive in anyway. The way it ended and how I was spoken to and treated by XOM during our LC "friends stage" I would consider not very nice as he said very confusing things to me that we not "friendship-like" more "affair-like" and I considered that to be emotionally abusive and manipulative. I finally ended the friendship and went NC and have not heard one word from him since except to add him as a contact on LinkedIn (which I did initially but have since removed him as a contact).

 

I think the pattern lies in if we still see ourselves as the VICTIM and I refuse to be a victim any longer. I will not allow anyone to abuse me or to take advantage of me or my emotions hence the NC I initiated. Once my line of boundary of abuse gets crossed, there really is no getting back on my good side again.

 

Great point, LD!! I've done a little research and, by definition, affairs are in many ways emotionally abusive - definitely to the BS but also often times to the AP. By the AP ending the A, the cycle is broken. But what about the AP who are not the ones to end the A...how many of them continue to put themselves in similar situations in the future?...Or, for that matter, the BS who remains ignorant of or refuses to see the behavior of their WS...I just wonder how much of our past (abusive) experience makes us (people in general) susceptible...

[ladydesigner]

Great point, LD!! I've done a little research and, by definition, affairs are in many ways emotionally abusive - definitely to the BS but also often times to the AP. By the AP ending the A, the cycle is broken. But what about the AP who are not the ones to end the A...how many of them continue to put themselves in similar situations in the future?...Or, for that matter, the BS who remains ignorant of or refuses to see the behavior of their WS...I just wonder how much of our past (abusive) experience makes us (people in general) susceptible...

 

I would say it makes us very susceptible. My H had an A and I found out and then he had other behaviors that I would consider suspect. I put up with it. I didn't kick him out, file for D, I just put up with it and then had a RA (not the greatest solution). So there are signs of allowing people to still run all over me. I did finally put my foot down and threaten D and since then my H has done a complete 180 and I feel we are on the right track now. If he strays again well i will have to leave as I will be showing that I will put up with just about anything from him. I also think past abuse sets us up to become more co-dependent. I find myself struggling with that issue more and more. I want to stop the cycle of both abuse and co-dependency.

[pureinheart]

This is an extremely insightful thread...am trying to think if there was ever the "victim" part, being so ornery I usually had the RA asnd then bailed. Prior to M or with friends that screwed me over, I just never talked to them again.

 

How have you all reacted to abuse and how have you all turned out, meaning I have to have things fixed/inorder. This is how I maintain my world, everything is good if all is working properly and clean. FTR don't expect the people around me to be like me, although it is good if they respect how I am/have turned out. Also thinking my job played a big part also...clean room conditions.

 

During high points of stress from abuse, I would react by throwing myself into something and over exceed in what was considered humanly impossible. At one point single handedly did the job of about 5 or 6 people...wrote up discrepancies, got them dispo'ed, set up and fixed them, closed them out...this was no easy task.

 

Thinking this was a good way to release as it really helped build my confidence back, yet it was only a band-aide...

[StoptheDrama]

This is something I came across that I thought might help...

 

Types of Emotional Abuse

 

Abusive Expectations

• The other person places unreasonable demands on you and wants you to put everything else aside to tend to their needs.
  
• It could be a demand for constant attention, or a requirement that you spend all your free time with the person.
  
• But no matter how much you give, it's never enough.
  
• You are subjected to constant criticism, and you are constantly berated because you don't fulfill all this person's needs.
  

Aggressing

• Aggressive forms of abuse include name-calling, accusing, blaming, threatening, and ordering. Aggressing behaviors are generally direct and obvious. The one-up position the abuser assumes by attempting to judge or invalidate the recipient undermines the equality and autonomy that are essential to healthy adult relationships. This parent-child pattern of communication (which is common to all forms of verbal abuse) is most obvious when the abuser takes an aggressive stance.[
  
• Aggressive abuse can also take a more indirect form and may even be disguised and "helping." Criticizing, advising, offering solutions, analyzing, proving, and questioning another person may be a sincere attempt to help. In some instances however, these behaviors may be an attempt to belittle, control, or demean rather than help. The underlying judgmental "I know best" tone the abuser takes in these situations is inappropriate and creates unequal footing in peer relationships. This and other types of emotional abuse can lead to what is known as learned helplessness
  

Constant Chaos

• The other person may deliberately start arguments and be in constant conflict with others.
  
• The person may be "addicted to drama" since it creates excitement.
  

Denying

• Denying a person's emotional needs, especially when they feel that need the most, and done with the intent of hurting, punishing or humiliating
  
• The other person may deny that certain events occurred or that certain things were said. confronts the abuser about an incident of name calling, the abuser may insist, "I never said that," "I don't know what you're talking about," etc You know differently.
  
• The other person may deny your perceptions, memory and very sanity.
  
• Withholding is another form of denying. Withholding includes refusing to listen, refusing to communicate, and emotionally withdrawing as punishment. This is sometimes called the "silent treatment."
  
• When the abuser disallows and overrules any viewpoints, perceptions or feelings which differ from their own.
  
• Denying can be particularly damaging. In addition to lowering self-esteem and creating conflict, the invalidation of reality, feelings, and experiences can eventually lead you to question and mistrust your own perceptions and emotional experience.
  
• Denying and other forms of emotional abuse can cause you to lose confidence in your most valuable survival tool: your own mind.
  

Dominating

• Someone wants to control your every action. They have to have their own way, and will resort to threats to get it.
  
• When you allow someone else to dominate you, you can lose respect for yourself
  

Emotional Blackmail

• The other person plays on your fear, guilt, compassion, values, or other "hot buttons" to get what they want.
  
• This could include threats to end the relationship, totally reject or abandon you, giving you the the "cold shoulder," or using other fear tactics to control you
  

Invalidation

• The abuser seeks to distort or undermine the recipient's perceptions of their world. Invalidating occurs when the abuser refuses or fails to acknowledge reality. For example, if the recipient tells the person they felt hurt by something the abuser did or said, the abuser might say "You are too sensitive. That shouldn't hurt you."
  

Minimizing

• Minimizing is a less extreme form of denial. When minimizing, the abuser may not deny that a particular event occurred, but they question the recipient's emotional experience or reaction to an event. Statements such as "You're too sensitive," "You're exaggerating," or "You're blowing this out of proportion" all suggest that the recipient's emotions and perceptions are faulty and not be trusted
  
• Trivializing, which occurs when the abuser suggests that what you have done or communicated is inconsequential or unimportant, is a more subtle form of minimizing
  

Unpredictable Responses

• Drastic mood changes or sudden emotional outbursts. Whenever someone in your life reacts very differently at different times to the same behavior from you, tells you one thing one day and the opposite the next, or likes something you do one day and hates it the next, you are being abused with unpredictable responses
  
• This behavior is damaging because it puts you always on edge. You're always waiting for the other shoe to drop, and you can never know what's expected of you. You must remain hypervigilant, waiting for the other person's next outburst or change of mood
  
• An alcoholic or drug abuser is likely to act this way. Living with someone like this is tremendously demanding and anxiety provoking, causing the abused person to feel constantly frightened, unsettled and off balance
  

Verbal Assaults

• Berating, belittling, criticizing, name calling, screaming, threatening

  
  

• Excessive blaming, and using sarcasm and humiliation.

  
  

• Blowing your flaws out of proportion and making fun of you in front of others. Over time, this type of abuse erodes your sense of self confidence and self-worth

  
  

The full text is at

http://eqi.org/eabuse1.htm

 

 

I found this article to be of particular interest as I could identify with many of the examples, especially the bolded and underlined text. Those are behaviors my xMM exhibited periodically during and increasingly in the time leading up to when I ended the A...

Edited May 18, 2010 by StoptheDrama
crazy pasting issues

[Fieldsofgold]

PIH: [Q]How have you all reacted to abuse and how have you all turned out, meaning I have to have things fixed/inorder. This is how I maintain my world, everything is good if all is working properly and clean. FTR don't expect the people around me to be like me, although it is good if they respect how I am/have turned out. Also thinking my job played a big part also...clean room conditions.[/Q]

 

I used to react with fear and crying, and asking why they wanted to hurt me. (physical and sexual abuse ) At some point, about age 28, I became angry and fought back. I became defiant, daring the perp to touch me. If he did, I got up and slugged him back. Long term, I dealt with the stress by being very messy. My home was like a fortress, with lots of things to trip over and places to hide. For a long timep I slept in my clothes, just about anywhere but the bed. Didn't feel safe sleeping in the bed in night clothes. I was a perfectionist. In everything. And a borderline hoarder. Sort of like the documentaries you see on tv. Not to that extreme, but some tendencies were there. I never drank or used drugs, which amazed a lot of people.