Tim The Enchanter Posted May 17, 2010 Posted May 17, 2010 Something I notice out here in Hawaii is that there's a huge emphasis on the importance of confidence and macho-ness.....Women go bonkers for a guy who struts around with this supreme sense of confidence.... There are lots of guys out here with serious eye-candy on their arms as a result of it.... The problem is, these guys are complete and total imbeciles once you get talking to them....No job, no personality, no depth of character or knowledge about anything beyond watching UFC... So, judging a guy on his confidence alone is kind of a bust for women that are looking for anything more than a meat-monster.... Strutting around confident and having nothing beyond the surface is a pretty bad pick for a boyfriend, I figure, yet women totally fall for it.... Confidence is a great character trait, but it shouldn't be top of the list for women searching for a good guy. Yes, and the same women are the ones going around saying "where have all the decent men gone?", when all they've dated are these macho morons.
GoodOnPaper Posted May 17, 2010 Posted May 17, 2010 And one more mistake these guys make is going after the hottest party girl they can find and striving fruitlessly for her, without realizing that chances are she won't be the kind of partner that they want. Of course they do -- the hot party girl exudes sexuality while the typical girl-next-door doesn't. Believe it or not, nearly all guys -- even the ones who want relationships instead of ONSs, even the nerdy, geeky guys who struggle with attracting women -- think about and want sex as much as that upper echelon of guys that can get laid whenever they want. When advised that they may be happier with the girl next door (for the reasons you listed above, plus the fact that they will have a higher chance of being accepted by her), you receive replies such as 'Why should I have to lower my standards?!'. Those replies are based on the assumption that the quality of your sex life corresponds to your partner's level of (general or universal) attractiveness. The big question is . . . is this true?? If the answer is yes, then this response is justified. If the answer is no, and you really want guys -- especially young guys -- to follow this advice, then every dating/relationship website and advice columnist needs to drill it into guys' heads that their sex life will be better with a compatible girl-next-door type than an incompatible hot-party-girl type.
lino Posted May 17, 2010 Posted May 17, 2010 OK, accepted; now, what do we call the women who complain here about there being no men to date and how men behave like five year olds (just read that in another thread)? Woe is me, the only men who pick me are married or losers. Wa! I'm curious about this, since the site was likely founded and grown by females commiserating together, hence the pink color. Shall we accept, in this world of equality, that women are allowed their 'complaints' and men are not? Not a problem, but it's not a society that I want to participate in, to be sure. So, when I encounter people like that now, I just push it back into their face. Give em some of their own mojo, just like the women who fought for equality (with my support) did and do. When I listen to the emotional vampires, and even 'regular' women, I hear the chastisement of myself for attempting, like a man, to 'fix' their problem, when all they want is a receptacle for their emotions. They want what they want. Well, news flash, so do I. I ain't going waste any of my valuable carbon dioxide on those who don't respect and support that want. Let some other man be your receptacle. Bye-bye Well said Carhill! I hope you're coping ok with your divorce. You've always come across as a genuinely top bloke to me I don't remember it being like this when I first joined this messageboard but these days it seems like men have no place discussing their issues on here. If they do, all they get told is 'suck it up and improve yourself' I see threads where some females discuss the most asinine situations they've manifested for themselves and continue to stay in and they don't receive the same nasty and, honestly, useless feedback. I don't think I'd ask for any advice on here myself really. Other than a few exceptions, I think that most of the regulars here now are just here to put blokes down while they've got nothing to do while at work or wasting their lives away on the couch with their laptop/iphone. At the very least, she will act as social proof - women want men who they see with other women. Do you realise how stupid that sounds? Can't argue with it though, it's a sad fact of life.
Mr White Posted May 17, 2010 Posted May 17, 2010 There are tactics - and then there is strategy. I think strategy matters a lot more. I had a strategy based on my belief that there was a short list of attributes that were almost universally appealing. That strategy attracted a mate - and frankly continuing to execute it has helped our marriage keep the heat. But this requires identifying areas for improvement and then steadily executing. My plan took loosely 4-5 years. This is reassuring for me to hear, simply because I've adopted the exact same mindset, down to formulating it in similar words. This is not to say that I didn't (and sometimes still do) doubt that approach (vis-a-vis more popular "tactics" such as putting yourself "out there" a lot more, specific patterns of behavior/rules etc. that generally boil down more to putting up a "performance", rather than laying down a sound foundation). In any case, this approach has attracted exactly the kind of girl I would think it would (the modest, down to earth type), and has been completely ineffective with the "party"/"fierce" girl type, and that's a good thing. At bottom, we're talking about traits that are simply impossible to obtain until you've accumulated some experience and success. The point being that early 20s guys should not even expect to land quality women, and certainly should not marry at that point. In my experience, it is not until mid to late 20s when most guys learn to stand up on their own and become universally attractive.
Els Posted May 17, 2010 Posted May 17, 2010 Of course they do -- the hot party girl exudes sexuality while the typical girl-next-door doesn't. Believe it or not, nearly all guys -- even the ones who want relationships instead of ONSs, even the nerdy, geeky guys who struggle with attracting women -- think about and want sex as much as that upper echelon of guys that can get laid whenever they want. If that is what they want, too bad for them then. It is evident that just as how the 'hot party girl' exudes sexuality, short/fat/poor/shy men do not. Like begets like. Hot party girls are typically not looking for an average, awkward, short geek to have a relationship with either. If they have plenty of success going after hot party girls for sex and are enjoying themselves, I would tell them go for it, by all means. Just don't post 38746832472364932 threads whining about how the hot party girls don't like YOU.
Els Posted May 17, 2010 Posted May 17, 2010 This is reassuring for me to hear, simply because I've adopted the exact same mindset, down to formulating it in similar words. This is not to say that I didn't (and sometimes still do) doubt that approach (vis-a-vis more popular "tactics" such as putting yourself "out there" a lot more, specific patterns of behavior/rules etc. that generally boil down more to putting up a "performance", rather than laying down a sound foundation). In any case, this approach has attracted exactly the kind of girl I would think it would (the modest, down to earth type), and has been completely ineffective with the "party"/"fierce" girl type, and that's a good thing. I think this is great for you! Generic tactics don't work for everyone. The 'performance' tactics are for the people who prefer carefree flings with lots of sex, IMO - go to a bar, execute, rinse and repeat. The typical 'college life'.
GoodOnPaper Posted May 17, 2010 Posted May 17, 2010 It is evident that just as how the 'hot party girl' exudes sexuality, short/fat/poor/shy men do not. Like begets like. True . . . so average/short/fat/poor/shy men and women are mutually settling for each other??
somedude81 Posted May 17, 2010 Posted May 17, 2010 Accept a woman's offer to be friends! She might have other female friends who you could get with. At the very least, she will act as social proof - women want men who they see with other women. You need to work on becoming a person in your own right - being an isolated loner with no friends is not attractive to girls. How are you going to involve a girl in your social life if you don't have one? Girls want guys who are fun and sociable and independent, not loners who are going to be clingy and needy because they have nobody else in their lives. I thought so too. But then none of the girls I've hung out with, have ever introduced me to their friends or had me hang out with her and her friends. It was always just me and the girl. It's been that way for years. Hanging out with a girl that I'm infatuated with but can't actually have is very painful. It gets worse as time goes on. It's not something I'm willing to put myself through again. Creating a social life out of thin air is seems to be actually more difficult than dating a girl. Also I'm already over the clingy phase of my life. I know a girl I'm involved with will also want space. I haven't gone for the sexy party girls in years. I'm totally fine with the cute geeky girl, we have more in common anyways.
Lakeside_runner Posted May 17, 2010 Posted May 17, 2010 I haven't gone for the sexy party girls in years. I'm totally fine with the cute geeky girl, we have more in common anyways. These are the best! I was never a fan of party girls... A shy and sporty girl with eyes that make me go "OMG" can always do WHATEVER she wants to do with me
Ross PK Posted May 17, 2010 Posted May 17, 2010 are the reasons why they are single... not that fact that they are for a start negative and clearly lacking in self confidence. I hear so many people say this. Has it ever occured to you that it might be the other way around? That these men are negative and unconfident because they've been so unsuccessful with women?
VertexSquared Posted May 17, 2010 Posted May 17, 2010 I hear so many people say this. Has it ever occured to you that it might be the other way around? That these men are negative and unconfident because they've been so unsuccessful with women? It's a self-perpetuating cycle. Initial failures due to other circumstances result in lowered confidence which, in itself, is a very negative signal that is unattractive. Yes, a man may be "justified" in "not feeling confident" because he doesn't have traits A, B, or C, and isn't X, Y, or Z... but whining about it won't help. I feel like a lot of men whine about women in hopes that someone will somehow take pity on them and/or take a chance on "a nice guy who is maybe not tall/dark/handsome/rich/educated/outgoing/etc." Unfortunately, this results in the opposite effect. You have to start somewhere to break the cycle. Since the cycle is dual-pronged, you can start in two places. You can either fake your confidence until you start getting results, or you can improve your "underlying assets" and traits to help boost your confidence, which in turn will help you get results. People also need to learn the difference between settling and focusing on what matters...the sooner you do this, the better.
phineas Posted May 17, 2010 Posted May 17, 2010 I thought so too. But then none of the girls I've hung out with, have ever introduced me to their friends or had me hang out with her and her friends. It was always just me and the girl. It's been that way for years. Hanging out with a girl that I'm infatuated with but can't actually have is very painful. It gets worse as time goes on. It's not something I'm willing to put myself through again. Creating a social life out of thin air is seems to be actually more difficult than dating a girl. Also I'm already over the clingy phase of my life. I know a girl I'm involved with will also want space. I haven't gone for the sexy party girls in years. I'm totally fine with the cute geeky girl, we have more in common anyways. So you are where I was mid to late 20's. Attention whore bait. Women that insist on being your friend, never introduce you to their friends & get pissed if your out together & a woman shows interest in you. I'm in my late 30's now. Almost divorced. I have a few female friends. I know which one's are attention whores that will NEVER introduce me to anyone they know. I also have one that has introduced me to both her parents (their divorced so that is two family get togethers) & has not tried to psudo-date me. If we go somewhere & do something she pays her half. If she's an attention whore, she's deffinetly slow playing me. LOL!
carhill Posted May 17, 2010 Posted May 17, 2010 If she's an attention whore, she's definitely slow playing me. LOL! Ha, emotional vampire numero uno introduced me to parents, sisters, friends and her adult children whom I had only known as babies. Didn't stop her from sucking me dry. Here's the key...all those 'introductions' were lubrication for the subsequent drama. Real smooth. Get the mark invested in those relationships by getting to know the people, then execute. I laugh now at the absurdity of my own idiocy. Women are such masters of manipulation. Good on em
phineas Posted May 17, 2010 Posted May 17, 2010 Ha, emotional vampire numero uno introduced me to parents, sisters, friends and her adult children whom I had only known as babies. Didn't stop her from sucking me dry. Here's the key...all those 'introductions' were lubrication for the subsequent drama. Real smooth. Get the mark invested in those relationships by getting to know the people, then execute. I laugh now at the absurdity of my own idiocy. Women are such masters of manipulation. Good on em Oh, i've thought of this & am watching for it. Trust me. we don't spend a lot of time together or talk all that much on the phone because we work opposite shifts. After almost a yr there has surprisingly been little drama. There is some. She's a woman after all. <ducks for cover> But there is no 10 mins. of yammering about a co-worker they don't like I've gotten with other women.
carhill Posted May 17, 2010 Posted May 17, 2010 Pay careful attention to her proactive interest in *your* life. This is now my litmus test for emotional vampirism. It's a real silver bullet. I love my bullets
phineas Posted May 17, 2010 Posted May 17, 2010 Pay careful attention to her proactive interest in *your* life. This is now my litmus test for emotional vampirism. It's a real silver bullet. I love my bullets Well, the thing that is different here is that she does ask me about my divorce & she does seem to get pissed when my STBXW pulls another one of her stunts. She does listen to me vent, doesn't cut me off & does retain what I tell her because she will send me a text later cracking a joke about something I said. She is yet another single mom with kids close to mine (that's what you get when you hang out at playgrounds, the aquairum, & the zoo) LOL! She genuinly seems interested in my day to day & we have some common interests we can talk about & some not common interests that we can take turns telling the other about. I've had phone conversations with women in the past & it was all about her. it isn't this way with this woman. I stopped talking to most of the other women I knew because I just didn't want to hear it anymore.
mem11363 Posted May 17, 2010 Posted May 17, 2010 Mr White - is that name from "Reservoir Dogs?" You have the right priorities. Modest and down to earth are great qualities in a life mate. As for describing this stuff as "foundation" that is a great way to put it. I also am opposed to the performance stuff. But there is a gray zone. For instance I do think that you can substantially improve interpersonal skills by observing people who really excel. Right after college I learned a lot from a good friend who had a killer combination: - genuine interest in other people - really listened and asked great questions - an upbeat, fun/funny way of seeing the world and - a high level of confidence He was nice looking but his appeal was 90 percent personality and I did learn from watching him. He also NEVER made the first romantic gesture. He was simply friendly to start and if the woman showed interest in him, he would flirt back. His success rate was better than anyone I have ever met. This is reassuring for me to hear, simply because I've adopted the exact same mindset, down to formulating it in similar words. This is not to say that I didn't (and sometimes still do) doubt that approach (vis-a-vis more popular "tactics" such as putting yourself "out there" a lot more, specific patterns of behavior/rules etc. that generally boil down more to putting up a "performance", rather than laying down a sound foundation). In any case, this approach has attracted exactly the kind of girl I would think it would (the modest, down to earth type), and has been completely ineffective with the "party"/"fierce" girl type, and that's a good thing. At bottom, we're talking about traits that are simply impossible to obtain until you've accumulated some experience and success. The point being that early 20s guys should not even expect to land quality women, and certainly should not marry at that point. In my experience, it is not until mid to late 20s when most guys learn to stand up on their own and become universally attractive.
carhill Posted May 17, 2010 Posted May 17, 2010 Well, the thing that is different here is that she does ask me about my divorce & she does seem to get pissed when my STBXW pulls another one of her stunts.IMO, that's a positive sign; here's a recent post from myself on that dynamic. This is the kind of dynamic I generally experience with male friend's wives and why I value their friendship. Good friends are a valuable asset, as is being a good friend.
phineas Posted May 17, 2010 Posted May 17, 2010 IMO, that's a positive sign; here's a recent post from myself on that dynamic. This is the kind of dynamic I generally experience with male friend's wives and why I value their friendship. Good friends are a valuable asset, as is being a good friend. I would say it's close to that. This woman though knows a lot more about me than my best friends wife. but a lot less than my best friend. She also got me a side job through one of her friends that allowed me to make some extra cash & no woman i've ever known as a "friend" ever did that for me. They usually just wanted me to do something for their friends for free or just for the cost of parts. So there is a noticable difference.
carhill Posted May 17, 2010 Posted May 17, 2010 So, a definite sign of lack of woe. Always like reading positive stories, even if not specifically on the romance front. Perhaps the posters who are considered to be 'woe' can learn from building on similar positive experiences. The paths to success are many.
deebeechrisyo Posted May 17, 2010 Posted May 17, 2010 Here's what I did: 1. Work out a lot (make sure you set goals too, the competitive nature of man will prevent you from quitting and will keep your motivations levels high) 2. Learn "Game". Yes this will probably upset the women here, but wait! One of the core teachings of game is gaining the confidence to approach and talk to woman anytime and anywhere. How is this bad? Sure, there are aspects of "Game" that are sleazy, but you don't need to learn those if you don't want to. I'm learning "Game" to find a good woman I can be in a relationship with. 3. Fake it til you make it (body language, clear speaking, etc.). 4. Get some interesting hobbies. 5. Most important: Don't do this stuff just to get girls. Do it because you love it and because it makes you feel great. By the way looks are great if you are able to capitalize on them. I know I'm quite attractive to women, but I have long spurts between partners, and much to my dismay I haven't had a relationship last past 4 months and I'm 27. Women don't throw themselves at you, you still have to do the work.
Mr White Posted May 17, 2010 Posted May 17, 2010 True . . . so average/short/fat/poor/shy men and women are mutually settling for each other?? Well, I don't think the late Charles Bronson would have a lot of success in the bar environment. But so what? He's still a badass and you bet there were plenty of ninjas wanting to make him happy . It's a false dichotomy. You can be attractive ant understated at the same time. While understated will not pay off immediately, the long term payoff is probably better.
Mr White Posted May 17, 2010 Posted May 17, 2010 Mr White - is that name from "Reservoir Dogs?" You have the right priorities. Modest and down to earth are great qualities in a life mate. As for describing this stuff as "foundation" that is a great way to put it. I also am opposed to the performance stuff. But there is a gray zone. For instance I do think that you can substantially improve interpersonal skills by observing people who really excel. Right after college I learned a lot from a good friend who had a killer combination: - genuine interest in other people - really listened and asked great questions - an upbeat, fun/funny way of seeing the world and - a high level of confidence He was nice looking but his appeal was 90 percent personality and I did learn from watching him. He also NEVER made the first romantic gesture. He was simply friendly to start and if the woman showed interest in him, he would flirt back. His success rate was better than anyone I have ever met. (Here's a virtual beer to you for being the first and only person to get the "Reservoir Dogs" reference .) Agreed on the "grey area". I've learned most of what I know through a combination of self-reflection, and great male role models (friends, grandpa, employers, movies). Since I grew up without a father, all of the above was necessary, and provided good - if not better- substitute. It's a long process, however. I read Dale Carnegie's "how to win friends..." in 7th grade, but didn't start feeling as a real person until about I turned 26:eek:. Not coincidentally, this was the first time I experienced discernible success with women (though I still had a lot to learn).
mem11363 Posted May 17, 2010 Posted May 17, 2010 White, Love that movie. Interesting comments about role models. My father taught me the rules of engagement for business. Came in super handy for making money. He taught me ZERO about women - other than: - to treat them like equals and - never hit one and - don't cheat on your wife He was an old school geek who knew virtually nothing about women. He was a good provider, nice guy, honest, didn't cheat on my mother. The good news is that you have adapted and overcome. The self assess - develop plan - execute plan cycle is key. Without that cycle - you stand a good change of eventually being just one more "friendzoned" husband. With it - you have a good shot at a happy relationship. (Here's a virtual beer to you for being the first and only person to get the "Reservoir Dogs" reference .) Agreed on the "grey area". I've learned most of what I know through a combination of self-reflection, and great male role models (friends, grandpa, employers, movies). Since I grew up without a father, all of the above was necessary, and provided good - if not better- substitute. It's a long process, however. I read Dale Carnegie's "how to win friends..." in 7th grade, but didn't start feeling as a real person until about I turned 26:eek:. Not coincidentally, this was the first time I experienced discernible success with women (though I still had a lot to learn).
Woggle Posted May 17, 2010 Posted May 17, 2010 I tried dating the party girls and had quite a bit of success but good god do they get on your nerves. The sex is not any better than other women and their personalities are like nails on a chalkboard. Plus many of them are not that good looking. I do not subscribe to the belief that being thin, having big boobs and long extensions makes a woman attractive. Most of the time they just looked used up to me.
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