Els Posted May 15, 2010 Posted May 15, 2010 I would agree that being friends first does make a relationship tough, however it doesn't preclude a sexual relationship. I've had a few sexual relationships arise from friendships. All of my relationships started out as friendships. There was a hidden element of attraction or 'sparks' that remained hidden until one person confessed.... but the fact that we were friends for a time did nothing to prevent the R from starting. Neither do I agree that it makes an R tougher. The one drawback I do think it causes, though, is that the friendship is irrevocably changed once the move is made, and once a breakup occurs it usually tends to fade away instead of returning to its old self. I honestly think anyone who precludes an entire gender from friendship just because they're afraid of getting hurt is... silly. How do you hang out then - only with guys? If there are girls in the group you don't talk to them, or you avoid them?
somedude81 Posted May 15, 2010 Posted May 15, 2010 I've had zero friendships turn into relationships. Most of my frienships with girls have actually ended because I wanted to to turn them into relationships and the girls didn't "like me like that." Frankly it's been a waste of my time and actually pretty painful to become friends with girls. The friendships always ended badly. BTW I'm talking about a close friendship where it's just the guy and the girl hanging out. That always leads to me falling for the girl.
Els Posted May 15, 2010 Posted May 15, 2010 I've had zero friendships turn into relationships. Most of my frienships with girls have actually ended because I wanted to to turn them into relationships and the girls didn't "like me like that." Frankly it's been a waste of my time and actually pretty painful to become friends with girls. The friendships always ended badly. BTW I'm talking about a close friendship where it's just the guy and the girl hanging out. That always leads to me falling for the girl. If you believe that appearance/suaveness isn't your strong point, it will be very difficult for you to get girls just by going up to a girl you hardly know and asking them out directly, IMO. You may just be shooting yourself in the foot. When first impressions aren't your forte, you will have to rely on deeper things, which invariably involve having some sort of interpersonal relationship with the person first. Yes it is painful, I have had plenty of unrequited crushes stem from friendships as well. But no risk, no gain, eh? If I'd sat around in bars all day waiting for guys to come ask me to be their girlfriend, I would probably still be single now.
MissJoness Posted May 15, 2010 Posted May 15, 2010 Well, as a woman I can identify with some of the male posters. It seems that the only way to get a guy interested is if you dress like a slut.
Engadget Posted May 15, 2010 Posted May 15, 2010 Well, as a woman I can identify with some of the male posters. It seems that the only way to get a guy interested is if you dress like a slut. That's not true, a lot of us like classy over slutty. Classy and sexy says mature. Slutty says young and immature.
carhill Posted May 15, 2010 Posted May 15, 2010 I would agree that being friends first does make a relationship tough, however it doesn't preclude a sexual relationship. I've had a few sexual relationships arise from friendships. IME, the only 'friendships' which turn sexual later are/were mutual attractions where circumstances, like one or both partners being married to/involved with others, preclude anything more intimate than a platonic friendship. What I have noticed, much to the chagrin of my new and improved people picker is that, in the past, the 'friends' for whom I did have some attraction but kept it platonic, when the relationship was analyzed in the cold light of day, was nothing more than a one-sided attraction/infatuation, with little to no reciprocity (of friendship) nor care. This, to me, now, is the essential element of choosing compatible partners, if 'friendship' is really where it begins. Fortunately, I have some really loving and caring friends, who happen to be wives of my male friends, whom I can look to as examples of how a caring female friend, without any attraction, shows that care and love to a male friend. It's great insight. If a single 'friend' doesn't pass that incremental smell test, a friendship does not result, if 'friend's first' is the proscribed path (their words). Given the tiny minority of men who post on LS and their representative demographic versus mainstream societal stereotypes, it's no wonder some of those posting often are perceived as 'woe is me'. They're expressing openly what a wider population of men keep to themselves. It's not popular and apparently not that attractive. It is what it is. We all have our path.
Els Posted May 15, 2010 Posted May 15, 2010 Given the tiny minority of men who post on LS and their representative demographic versus mainstream societal stereotypes, it's no wonder some of those posting often are perceived as 'woe is me'. They're expressing openly what a wider population of men keep to themselves. It's not popular and apparently not that attractive. It is what it is. We all have our path. I agree with this. However, some of the men tend to bring this 'expression' to a whole new level, as per the illustration below: Guy posts on thread #1: No women want me. I'm 40 and I'm still a virgin. People advise: Work out. Get a hobby and meet people. Don't be desperate. Be confident. Etc etc Guy posts on thread #2: No women want me. I'm 40 and I'm still a virgin. People: Didn't we just give you lots of advice on your other thread? Did you try it? Guy: No. It doesn't matter anyway. Women just aren't gonna like guys like me. We were screwed over from birth. People: Why are you giving up without even trying anything??? Guy posts on thread #3: No women want me. I'm 40 and I'm still a virgin.
MissJoness Posted May 15, 2010 Posted May 15, 2010 That's not true, a lot of us like classy over slutty. Classy and sexy says mature. Slutty says young and immature. I dont find this very truthful. Everytime I go out, I see the men seem to pay more attention to the sluttier women than the ones who are dressed more casual/classy. and being that I live in a residential area that has a lot of strip clubs, they are packed with men even the weekdays. Men love slutty women and tend to be more responsive to them
MissJoness Posted May 15, 2010 Posted May 15, 2010 I agree with this. However, some of the men tend to bring this 'expression' to a whole new level, as per the illustration below: Guy posts on thread #1: No women want me. I'm 40 and I'm still a virgin. People advise: Work out. Get a hobby and meet people. Don't be desperate. Be confident. Etc etc Guy posts on thread #2: No women want me. I'm 40 and I'm still a virgin. People: Didn't we just give you lots of advice on your other thread? Did you try it? Guy: No. It doesn't matter anyway. Women just aren't gonna like guys like me. We were screwed over from birth. People: Why are you giving up without even trying anything??? Guy posts on thread #3: No women want me. I'm 40 and I'm still a virgin. That's the thing, telling him to work out, get a hobby, and join a club isn't enough. The advice just isn't good enough. What if he doesn't need to work out? What if he's already in decent shape? Joining a club to meet women isn't going to help if women in general are not responsive to him. And getting a hobby...okay, that's nice but just how is that going to help him get a date? Hobbies are for when you are bored and need something to do
WTRanger Posted May 15, 2010 Posted May 15, 2010 That's the thing, telling him to work out, get a hobby, and join a club isn't enough. The advice just isn't good enough. What if he doesn't need to work out? What if he's already in decent shape? Joining a club to meet women isn't going to help if women in general are not responsive to him. And getting a hobby...okay, that's nice but just how is that going to help him get a date? Hobbies are for when you are bored and need something to do I enjoy running. So rather than running alone, I joined a running club. Met a girl with the same interests, manned up, asked her out, and am now dating her. Easy as 1-2-3. If you meet someone in a club or group or whatever that already shares at least one common thing with you, that's 1/2 the battle right there. As far as I know, there really isn't an effective telepathic home delivery system for partners. Stop bitching and moaning if no one comes calling for you if you don't do anything about it. Stop trying to meet people in bars and night clubs if you aren't into that scene. Of course the sluttiest girls get hit on in the clubs! The guys who are into that kind of girl frequent those places! Everything that has been listed recently on this post and the recent posts about lack of dating is just spineless cowards making excuses and not owning up to the fact that they are deathly afraid of rejection and that fear keeps them alone.
carhill Posted May 15, 2010 Posted May 15, 2010 Everything that has been listed recently on this post and the recent posts about lack of dating is just spineless cowards making excuses and not owning up to the fact that they are deathly afraid of rejection and that fear keeps them alone. OK, accepted; now, what do we call the women who complain here about there being no men to date and how men behave like five year olds (just read that in another thread)? Woe is me, the only men who pick me are married or losers. Wa! I'm curious about this, since the site was likely founded and grown by females commiserating together, hence the pink color. Shall we accept, in this world of equality, that women are allowed their 'complaints' and men are not? Not a problem, but it's not a society that I want to participate in, to be sure. So, when I encounter people like that now, I just push it back into their face. Give em some of their own mojo, just like the women who fought for equality (with my support) did and do. When I listen to the emotional vampires, and even 'regular' women, I hear the chastisement of myself for attempting, like a man, to 'fix' their problem, when all they want is a receptacle for their emotions. They want what they want. Well, news flash, so do I. I ain't going waste any of my valuable carbon dioxide on those who don't respect and support that want. Let some other man be your receptacle. Bye-bye
Els Posted May 15, 2010 Posted May 15, 2010 (edited) That's the thing, telling him to work out, get a hobby, and join a club isn't enough. The advice just isn't good enough. What if he doesn't need to work out? What if he's already in decent shape? Joining a club to meet women isn't going to help if women in general are not responsive to him. And getting a hobby...okay, that's nice but just how is that going to help him get a date? Hobbies are for when you are bored and need something to do Yes, you are exactly like them, I'm afraid. Of course men make more passes at slutty women, honey. They scream 'easy sex' all over. Few men give up opportunities for easy sex. You, and the men the OP is talking about, just love to equate quantity with relationship success. Of course many men are dying to get free and easy ONS with slutty women. Of course many women are fawning over that handsome, charismatic and rich actor and want to use him to fulfil their childhood dreams of being the princess pampered by Prince Charming. SO WHAT??? Just because doing something doesn't instantly net you a huge influx of men/women making passes at you, that doesn't mean that it's not good advice. Trust me, if anyone thinks THEY have 'innate problems' such as height which make them 'undateable', well, I've got news for them - I've got it worse. Yet even in the single years before I had my first bf, I would never even have considered being such a whiner. Probably because I realize there are far worse things in life, than having your airheaded hot friend get men drooling all over her while you just know that you have far more to offer as a person but don't get nearly as many passes. And I have been that girl, so I know what I'm talking about. And if someone thinks that that alone is enough to cause them to want to give up their life and go shoot people like Soldini did - well, they evidently were pampered enough to never have REAL problems before. Edited May 15, 2010 by Elswyth
PJKino Posted May 15, 2010 Posted May 15, 2010 OK, accepted; now, what do we call the women who complain here about there being no men to date and how men behave like five year olds (just read that in another thread)? Woe is me, the only men who pick me are married or losers. Wa! I'm curious about this, since the site was likely founded and grown by females commiserating together, hence the pink color. Shall we accept, in this world of equality, that women are allowed their 'complaints' and men are not? Not a problem, but it's not a society that I want to participate in, to be sure. So, when I encounter people like that now, I just push it back into their face. Give em some of their own mojo, just like the women who fought for equality (with my support) did and do. When I listen to the emotional vampires, and even 'regular' women, I hear the chastisement of myself for attempting, like a man, to 'fix' their problem, when all they want is a receptacle for their emotions. They want what they want. Well, news flash, so do I. I ain't going waste any of my valuable carbon dioxide on those who don't respect and support that want. Let some other man be your receptacle. Bye-bye Amen..Women can moan and whine all the time about their relationship or lakc of relationship problems if a Man does it hes a whiner hes not a Man blah blah blah
MissJoness Posted May 15, 2010 Posted May 15, 2010 Yes, you are exactly like them, I'm afraid. Of course men make more passes at slutty women, honey. They scream 'easy sex' all over. Few men give up opportunities for easy sex. You, and the men the OP is talking about, just love to equate quantity with relationship success. Of course many men are dying to get free and easy ONS with slutty women. Of course many women are fawning over that handsome, charismatic and rich actor and want to use him to fulfil their childhood dreams of being the princess pampered by Prince Charming. SO WHAT??? Just because doing something doesn't instantly net you a huge influx of men/women making passes at you, that doesn't mean that it's not good advice. Trust me, if anyone thinks THEY have 'innate problems' such as height which make them 'undateable', well, I've got news for them - I've got it worse. Yet even in the single years before I had my first bf, I would never even have considered being such a whiner. Probably because I realize there are far worse things in life, than having your airheaded hot friend get men drooling all over her while you just know that you have far more to offer as a person but don't get nearly as many passes. And I have been that girl, so I know what I'm talking about. And if someone thinks that that alone is enough to cause them to want to give up their life and go shoot people like Soldini did - well, they evidently were pampered enough to never have REAL problems before. Okay but the thing that bothers me is how you are told that men want to marry the 'good girl' the woman who carries herself with class, isn't easy, has respect for herself but they turn around and cheat on us or drool and give extra attention to the very women that we are told not to be; the unmarriageable type. This frustrates me.
carhill Posted May 15, 2010 Posted May 15, 2010 A key psychological change I've noted since divorcing is the change from reaching out to moving aside; imagine a hand reaching out, grasping, versus that same hand moving aside to make way. This is fundamentally how I visualize the path now. Before I was grasping; now I'm clearing my path of obstacles. It's a fundamental change in how I view women. It allowed me to deal with a number of obstacles this morning with stbx with a calm and pleasant demeanor because my purpose is not to grasp for her, rather to clear her from my path. Whatever that takes. Get 'er done BTW, this visualization is a result of the work in MC to effect behavioral change. Worth every nickel, IMO
Lakeside_runner Posted May 15, 2010 Posted May 15, 2010 Amen..Women can moan and whine all the time about their relationship or lakc of relationship problems if a Man does it hes a whiner hes not a Man blah blah blah Well... "Men do not cry. Men do not pout. Men jack you in the freakin' jaw and say - thanks for coming out!"
Els Posted May 16, 2010 Posted May 16, 2010 Okay but the thing that bothers me is how you are told that men want to marry the 'good girl' the woman who carries herself with class, isn't easy, has respect for herself but they turn around and cheat on us or drool and give extra attention to the very women that we are told not to be; the unmarriageable type. This frustrates me. You might want to reconsider the type of men you're having relationships with, then. I and many of my friends have men who don't do that.
Woggle Posted May 16, 2010 Posted May 16, 2010 Women are just as bad. Look at how many of them claim to want a good and faithful man who will treat them well but end up cheating on him and falling out of love.
mem11363 Posted May 16, 2010 Posted May 16, 2010 E, This is a great post. And it is funny because one response you got was "what if the person has already taken the recommended steps." I have yet to see any of these guys actually self assess honestly and in a fact based manner with the intention of upping their game. They present as "asking for help" but their actual goal is simply to hear from others that it is hopeless and women are unfair. And that is sad. My guess is many of these guys have a lot of potential. That makes it sad for the women end up being single due to the lack of acceptable partners. I also think the comparative self pity they convey shows an extraordinary lack of understanding of how the world works. The guys who these folks think have it best are the guys who often end up having it worst. Those are the tall, handsome guys who easily get dates/get laid in highschool/college. Often those guys don't develop very much - in terms of relating to women - because they don't have to. Often their marriages don't work out so well. The raw physical fades for the many who don't stay fit - and even for those who do they learn that being nice looking gets you laid for maybe the first 5 to 10 years - after that they come on here - just one more friendzoned husband who is all the more puzzled because he has stayed fit and has a job..... The men who are average - or have some drawback - those guys develop skills. And mostly those coping skills have a huge impact on marital success. Just one guys opinion. I agree with this. However, some of the men tend to bring this 'expression' to a whole new level, as per the illustration below: Guy posts on thread #1: No women want me. I'm 40 and I'm still a virgin. People advise: Work out. Get a hobby and meet people. Don't be desperate. Be confident. Etc etc Guy posts on thread #2: No women want me. I'm 40 and I'm still a virgin. People: Didn't we just give you lots of advice on your other thread? Did you try it? Guy: No. It doesn't matter anyway. Women just aren't gonna like guys like me. We were screwed over from birth. People: Why are you giving up without even trying anything??? Guy posts on thread #3: No women want me. I'm 40 and I'm still a virgin.
mem11363 Posted May 16, 2010 Posted May 16, 2010 Agree. Monogamy is half selection and half behavioral. Hard core cheaters are generally pretty easy to spot. Everyone else responds pretty well to a message of: I will rock your world in bed - that is just part of my job in a committed relationship / marriage AND I will cut your balls off with a butter knife if you cheat. Pick a decent person - treat them well - demand respect - inspire a little fear - rinse - repeat - most partners will behave. You might want to reconsider the type of men you're having relationships with, then. I and many of my friends have men who don't do that.
Mr White Posted May 16, 2010 Posted May 16, 2010 (edited) E, This is a great post. And it is funny because one response you got was "what if the person has already taken the recommended steps." I have yet to see any of these guys actually self assess honestly and in a fact based manner with the intention of upping their game. They present as "asking for help" but their actual goal is simply to hear from others that it is hopeless and women are unfair. And that is sad. My guess is many of these guys have a lot of potential. That makes it sad for the women end up being single due to the lack of acceptable partners. I also think the comparative self pity they convey shows an extraordinary lack of understanding of how the world works. The guys who these folks think have it best are the guys who often end up having it worst. Those are the tall, handsome guys who easily get dates/get laid in highschool/college. Often those guys don't develop very much - in terms of relating to women - because they don't have to. Often their marriages don't work out so well. The raw physical fades for the many who don't stay fit - and even for those who do they learn that being nice looking gets you laid for maybe the first 5 to 10 years - after that they come on here - just one more friendzoned husband who is all the more puzzled because he has stayed fit and has a job..... The men who are average - or have some drawback - those guys develop skills. And mostly those coping skills have a huge impact on marital success. Just one guys opinion. I will only add that this type of guy also goes for the wrong kind of women - e.g. the chicks that are impressed with the football players to begin with. While they're fun to tap a few times, they're just as bad relationship partners as the guys that get laid too much in highshcool - because they don't have to be good. The point being that not having success with this type of woman is a good thing. Go for the average girl next door that maybe isn't so flashy, maybe is a little shy etc., and the chances of happiness are much improved. Also I don't think that improving one's "game" beyond being sane, self-assured with good manners and NOT caring what women think of you is all that helpful. The ones that are worth it should come on their own. "Pursuing" and "entertaining" too much sets a bad precedent. Edited May 16, 2010 by Mr White
mem11363 Posted May 17, 2010 Posted May 17, 2010 There are tactics - and then there is strategy. I think strategy matters a lot more. I had a strategy based on my belief that there was a short list of attributes that were almost universally appealing. That strategy attracted a mate - and frankly continuing to execute it has helped our marriage keep the heat. But this requires identifying areas for improvement and then steadily executing. My plan took loosely 4-5 years. I will only add that this type of guy also goes for the wrong kind of women - e.g. the chicks that are impressed with the football players to begin with. While they're fun to tap a few times, they're just as bad relationship partners as the guys that get laid too much in highshcool - because they don't have to be good. The point being that not having success with this type of woman is a good thing. Go for the average girl next door that maybe isn't so flashy, maybe is a little shy etc., and the chances of happiness are much improved. Also I don't think that improving one's "game" beyond being sane, self-assured with good manners and NOT caring what women think of you is all that helpful. The ones that are worth it should come on their own. "Pursuing" and "entertaining" too much sets a bad precedent.
mem11363 Posted May 17, 2010 Posted May 17, 2010 White, I agree - the female equivalent to these males often makes an equally bad partner. I will only add that this type of guy also goes for the wrong kind of women - e.g. the chicks that are impressed with the football players to begin with. While they're fun to tap a few times, they're just as bad relationship partners as the guys that get laid too much in highshcool - because they don't have to be good. The point being that not having success with this type of woman is a good thing. Go for the average girl next door that maybe isn't so flashy, maybe is a little shy etc., and the chances of happiness are much improved. Also I don't think that improving one's "game" beyond being sane, self-assured with good manners and NOT caring what women think of you is all that helpful. The ones that are worth it should come on their own. "Pursuing" and "entertaining" too much sets a bad precedent.
Els Posted May 17, 2010 Posted May 17, 2010 I have yet to see any of these guys actually self assess honestly and in a fact based manner with the intention of upping their game. They present as "asking for help" but their actual goal is simply to hear from others that it is hopeless and women are unfair. Yes, precisely what I meant, thanks! These people are insane by the true definition of insanity - doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results for the 100th time. And sadly it's not just guys either, although for some reason men seem to make up the majority of them on this site. I also think the comparative self pity they convey shows an extraordinary lack of understanding of how the world works. The guys who these folks think have it best are the guys who often end up having it worst. Those are the tall, handsome guys who easily get dates/get laid in highschool/college. Often those guys don't develop very much - in terms of relating to women - because they don't have to. Often their marriages don't work out so well. The raw physical fades for the many who don't stay fit - and even for those who do they learn that being nice looking gets you laid for maybe the first 5 to 10 years - after that they come on here - just one more friendzoned husband who is all the more puzzled because he has stayed fit and has a job..... The men who are average - or have some drawback - those guys develop skills. And mostly those coping skills have a huge impact on marital success. Just one guys opinion. I agree. And one more mistake these guys make is going after the hottest party girl they can find and striving fruitlessly for her, without realizing that chances are she won't be the kind of partner that they want. When advised that they may be happier with the girl next door (for the reasons you listed above, plus the fact that they will have a higher chance of being accepted by her), you receive replies such as 'Why should I have to lower my standards?!'.
Eeyore79 Posted May 17, 2010 Posted May 17, 2010 I have never accepted a woman's offer to be just friends. It's just too painful. And that's the reason why I don't have any female friends. My life is actually pretty sad. I put all my effort in trying to get to know girls so I don't even bother talking to guys. I start to get close to one girl and sooner or later she rejects me, then I'm alone again. If I could somehow turn off my sex drive and the need for intimacy, I'd actually have a bunch of female and maybe male friends as well. Accept a woman's offer to be friends! She might have other female friends who you could get with. At the very least, she will act as social proof - women want men who they see with other women. You need to work on becoming a person in your own right - being an isolated loner with no friends is not attractive to girls. How are you going to involve a girl in your social life if you don't have one? Girls want guys who are fun and sociable and independent, not loners who are going to be clingy and needy because they have nobody else in their lives.
Recommended Posts