Why does she claim no responsibility?

[silktricks]

As for the typical guy who cheats - I have no idea what he is like. But I will tell you I read very few accounts by BS where they acknowledge serious fault of their own in the marriage and I am skeptical about that.

 

I don't agree that few BS acknowledge their own faults, as most BS who post regularly absolutely have done so. For that matter, I haven't seen ANY recovered marriages where the BS doesn't take full responsibility for their part in the pre-affair problems.

 

But you are missing the point of the post. It was about people who create a situation. When the situation doesn't end as they want rather than looking at all at their own input into it, they claim victim status. I could have written it about the MM, the BS or the OW, however since I posted on the infidelity board, the OW seemed the best choice. In my reality, however, and what I am actually fed up about - the person is not OW, nor BS nor MP. It's an utterly different situation.

[silktricks]

Whilst I think that the OW in the example given by the OP definitely shows that particular person is not at all innocent, I think it entirely depends on the situation, how much/little responsibility the OW/OM should claim.

And, of course, as I stated, I created the scenario to illustrate a point...

 

For example, if the WS lied to the OW/OM about being married until after the OW/OM was well and truly 'hooked' in the relationship, then I don't think the OW/OM really deserves much blame or to shoulder much responsibility at all.

"hooked"????? No one is a fish. My niece was dating a man - and became quite seriously involved/in love. She found he was married and dumped him immediately. Once a woman (or man) finds the object of their affections is in fact not available, IMO once they decide to continue with them, they are 100% culpable from that point on.

 

If the OW/OM knew the WS was married, but usually only ever heard bad things being said by the WS about the M, then again I don't think they deserve a ton of responsibility - moreso than the first scenario, but still not much at all. Most people want to believe the best in others who they know and talk to, and so it's very easy to believe stories about the unknown third party being a bad person.

so because he's married to a "bad" woman, the OW doesn't bear any responsibility??? Sorry, but married is married is married. He is NOT SINGLE!! Not available.

 

If the OW/OM knew the WS was married, and was friends with both parties, that's a whole different kettle of fish. I think THOSE people are doing a fair bit of first-hand betrayal themselves. It's still not comparable to the amount of betrayal being done by the WS, but they still definitely deserve to shoulder a fair amount of the responsibility for the A.

They have the same amount of responsibility for the A as any other of the examples you have given. And I side with Bent here. It is the same 100% the MM must shoulder. 100%. In addition to the responsibility for the affair, though, this person has the additional responsibility of betraying a friendship, just as the MM has the responsibility for betraying the marriage.

 

And of course, there are all sorts of varying degrees in between.

you have an interesting sliding scale of responsibility. Sorry, but I don't buy it. If you do something wrong. You are 100% responsible for making that choice. You aren't 10% responsible if you were tricked, 40% responsible if the wife was mean, 60% responsible if he was REALLY handsome , etc... You make a bad choice - you are 100% responsible for having made the choice - whatever the choice may be.

 

I also think there are varying degrees of responsibility for the BS (responsibility for the strength of the marriage and NOT for the A itself), and even to an extent, for the WS. For example, if someone is in some form of abusive relationship and turns to an A as an exit strategy - I would have a *lot* more compassion and understanding for them than for someone who was a SC. And of course there are a hundred variations in between the two extremes.

Of course the BS has responsibility for the strength of the marriage - equal responsibility with the WS. A marriage is between 2 people. It takes the work of both of those people to make the marriage healthy - one person cannot do it alone.

 

Regarding exit affairs - IMO I don't care what kind of affair it is - the choice is still a bad one, and both people involved in the affair have responsibility for it - not just one. You want out? Then get divorced.

[seibert253]

I don't agree that few BS acknowledge their own faults, as most BS who post regularly absolutely have done so. For that matter, I haven't seen ANY recovered marriages where the BS doesn't take full responsibility for their part in the pre-affair problems.

 

No truer words than these, IMO.

 

I was the first to admit my faults, before, during, and after my FWW's A. I contributed to 50% of the problems within our M, but the A, 100% on her.

 

It took her awhile to get this, but once she did, wow what a difference.

[Ann_Igma]

I only spoke of my parenting. I don't/didn't teach my children, who are now older, that there were degrees to wrong. I told them when they did something there would be consequences they wouldn't like. There was no implication to your parenting, since I didn't know you had children. I only spoke of how I would/did teach my children. Shrug.

 

Bent - I'm sorry for my reaction there. I'm a bit sensitive on the kids issue at the moment and was being overly defensive with you. I won't T/J to explain here, but I suppose it's high time that I get around to posting my own story, which will probably explain that a bit.

 

Spark - From the posts of yours I read, you always make great sense to me. And I completely agree with your reply in the capacity that I would do the same things as you in those situations.

 

I'm struggling to explain what I mean in any sort of way that makes sense, so bear with me here, but I wasn't so much trying to justify anybody's behavior as I was trying to explain how much responsibility/blame I would apply to people in those situations. And to me, that directly correlates to how much intent and malice they have shown, and how willing/capable I would be of forgiving them.

 

I don't like affairs, I don't agree with affairs, I went through/am going through an incredible amount of pain due to an affair and I very nearly lost my life because of it. But I also recognise that all people can be both intentionally and unintentionally hurtful, and all people make mistakes somewhere along the line.

 

I really hope that makes sense. Probably not, knowing me.

[silktricks]

I'm struggling to explain what I mean in any sort of way that makes sense, so bear with me here, but I wasn't so much trying to justify anybody's behavior as I was trying to explain how much responsibility/blame I would apply to people in those situations. And to me, that directly correlates to how much intent and malice they have shown, and how willing/capable I would be of forgiving them.

 

Aahhhhh... that explains a lot. So you correlate responsibility and blame with intent and malice. I don't hook those things up. If, for example, I'm not watching where I am walking and run into a person who is carrying a cake, the ruin of the cake is my responsibility. There was no malice involved, and I certainly didn't intend to run into them, but that doesn't mean I'm not responsible for what happened. I should have been paying attention.

 

Blame is a word I'm not fond of, as it is normally used by people who want to divest themselves of any input into the situation at hand. It's a fairly childlike reaction, IMO. Blame is something that is put on me. Responsibility is something I willingly take.

 

Victim and blame go together for me. So, a person who is claiming to be a victim is usually blaming someone else for the situation. A person who takes responsibility is not blaming someone else.

[Steadfast]

 

The OW/OM knows EXACTLY what they are doing and that they are willfully participating in something which is detramental to the M...and that THEY are HURTING another person, the BS, in doing so. They ARE 100% responsible for that. It's their own part in it...their's alone...which cannot be blameshifted to the MM/MW.

 

 

Very true. But even knowing that, it takes little coaxing for their actions to be justified. What the WS says about their partner probably plays heavily into it. In time, the OM/OW may actually believe they are 'helping' the cheating spouse because they are so unhappy and lost. Still, deep down, it's probably the allure of getting some strange. I'd wager this is more true for men (with married women) then a woman who falls for a married man.

 

But lets not forget that people who engage in this activity never escape the consequences of their actions. One way or another, these bad decisions come back to haunt. In the case of my cheating ex, when she realized that she'd be used (not loved) she wanted to tell her affair partner exactly what she thought of him. His reply was to remind her that she was the one who had cheated on her husband, and that most men would be very wary, knowing what she was capable of. After all, if she so willingly cheated on her husband of 16 years and the father of her kids, what chance did they have? The ultimate joke in this is; guess who she came to for support and validation? Yep. Her husband. You can figure out the rest on your own.

[Dexter Morgan]

Why does the OW (whether EA or PA) claim to be a victim? Why is she so often seemingly desirous of being considered a victim?

 

because their perception of right and wrong is all effed up.

 

they think they don't owe anyone anything. only they should be afforded decency...something they didn't extend to the BS.

[MadMission]

she was the one who had cheated on her husband, and that most men would be very wary, knowing what she was capable of. After all, if she so willingly cheated on her husband of 16 years and the father of her kids, what chance did they have?

 

Yes, it's quite a fall for many WS.

 

My WH went from being on top of the world ...being loved by 2 people during his LTA...to facing what he had become: truely undesirable to any woman of substance.

 

After d-day, reality smacked him hard in the face... realizing that most women wouldn't touch him with a ten foot pole if they knew what he did to his W and children. If he was honest with any future prospects, the best he could likely do is hook up with someone like himself, a cheater, or maybe an OW who would willingly get involved with someone who is shallow, selfish, immature, dishonest, deceptive, manipulative, etc.

Nice prospects.

BTW, these are my WH's words, not mine.

[Snowflower]

 

After d-day, reality smacked him hard in the face... realizing that most women wouldn't touch him with a ten foot pole if they knew what he did to his W and children. If he was honest with any future prospects, the best he could likely do is hook up with someone like himself, a cheater, or maybe an OW who would willingly get involved with someone who is shallow, selfish, immature, dishonest, deceptive, manipulative, etc.

Nice prospects.

BTW, these are my WH's words, not mine.

 

I wonder how many fWS realize this about themselves later on after the A has ended. I know my husband feels he lost some of his integrity and self-worth. He looks to me to restore that for him sometimes. I can't do that.

 

That's interesting your H said that about himself. Seems like he 'woke up' to reality to some extent.

 

It also seems like he realized the impact of his decision. Maybe he will be a better person and husband to you now.

[silktricks]

I wonder how many fWS realize this about themselves later on after the A has ended. I know my husband feels he lost some of his integrity and self-worth. He looks to me to restore that for him sometimes. I can't do that.

 

That's interesting your H said that about himself. Seems like he 'woke up' to reality to some extent.

 

It also seems like he realized the impact of his decision. Maybe he will be a better person and husband to you now.

 

My husband also felt that he had not only betrayed me, but betrayed himself. He had a lot of self-analysis to do. After all was said and done, though, I think we are both better people, and certainly a better couple. We've sorted through many of our "couple" issues as well as personal ones.

[MadMission]

I wonder how many fWS realize this about themselves later on after the A has ended. I know my husband feels he lost some of his integrity and self-worth. He looks to me to restore that for him sometimes. I can't do that.

 

That's interesting your H said that about himself. Seems like he 'woke up' to reality to some extent.

 

It also seems like he realized the impact of his decision. Maybe he will be a better person and husband to you now.

 

Hi SF, I appreciate your possitive attitude:)

 

But, when my WH said what he did regarding his future prospect options being limited to a fellow cheater or an OW....because any woman of substance wouldn't touch him with a ten foot pole, it was in a moment of self-pitty.....feeling sorry for himself....poor him.

It wasn't the 'wake up' you thought...or an epiphany of sorts.

Nope, it was ALL about HIM...felling sorry for himself...and the situation he had created for himself.

That's all it was.

 

BTW, you can count me in with "most women wouldn't touch him with a ten foot pole if they knew what he did to his W and children."

I have NO desire to resume a marriage relationship with him.

The combination of his LTA and the ways in which he mis-managed the aftermath of d-day revealed much about him...things I never knew.

But, NOW I know.

So....I'll pass.

[Snowflower]

Hi SF, I appreciate your possitive attitude:)

 

But, when my WH said what he did regarding his future prospect options being limited to a fellow cheater or an OW....because any woman of substance wouldn't touch him with a ten foot pole, it was in a moment of self-pitty.....feeling sorry for himself....poor him.

It wasn't the 'wake up' you thought...or an epiphany of sorts.

Nope, it was ALL about HIM...felling sorry for himself...and the situation he had created for himself.

That's all it was.

 

I get it. Thanks for clarifying. After all that pain he caused, he couldn't at least learn a valuable life lesson from it? Sheesh.

 

Does your H have any clue about how you feel about him/your marriage after all this?

 

BTW, you can count me in with "most women wouldn't touch him with a ten foot pole if they knew what he did to his W and children."

I have NO desire to resume a marriage relationship with him.

The combination of his LTA and the ways in which he mis-managed the aftermath of d-day revealed much about him...things I never knew.

But, NOW I know.

So....I'll pass.

 

You know, I completely understand now why you don't want to resume a marital relationship with your H.

 

It's one thing to make a 'mistake' or a big, horrific decision like an A. I have made some whoppers of bad choices in my life (no A) so I can understand.

 

But its completely another thing to make the big 'mistake' (for lack of a better word)-and then still not try to fix the mistake the right way.

 

If your H badly mismanaged the aftermath then that does say a lot about him. I'm guessing it was continued lying, deception, omitted details, minimizing, ignoring your feelings, etc?

 

In other words, it's not the mistake that defines the person, it's how they attempt to make it right that defines them.

[MadMission]

In other words, it's not the mistake that defines the person, it's how they attempt to make it right that defines them.

 

Yes....and no...and I don't know! (How's that for a reply! LOL)

 

All I can say is...my WH is not someone I am interested in having a marriage relationship with...for so MANY reasons...all surrounding his LTA and mismanaged aftermath. His words and actions, throughout it all, spoke volumes of who he is...what he's all about. And, wow, he is not at all the person I thought he was.

 

My bar is, in fact, not very high. I am not a needy person...don't need much really to be happy. But, there are some very basic things I MUST HAVE in a marriage relationship: faithfulness, loyalty, honesty, genuinness, trust. Without these, I cannot call a man my "husband"... nor the relationship a "marriage." Cause, to me, they are not.

 

And, as in your quote, maybe it is in the way a WS attempts to make things right which can make all the difference in the world. Because that in and of itself re-defines them yet again...to being a person of substance, character, who is genuinely remorseful, who genuinely cares, etc...and someone who is truely worthwhile to reinvest in.

 

That has not been my personal experience so it is hard for me to even imagine it.

But, it sounds like your experience....and for that I am very happy for you.