Why does she claim no responsibility?

[bentnotbroken]

He means he has seen very few BS here admit that there was plenty of fault on their part leading to the state of their marriage being such that their WS became susceptible to an affair.

 

Speaking of non-serial cheating WS types of course.

 

The BS usually has very little to no responsibility for the actual affair, but they often have at least some, if not a lot, rarely maybe even most, of the responsibility for the fact that their marriage wasn't strong enough to avoid it.

 

It's hard to be that honest with yourself. I know.

 

 

I have major responsibility in the failure of my marriage. The abuse I inflicted was hurtful and destructive. Not trying to find out what was going on and getting help for what I knew was an issue. That contributed to the failure of my marriage. The affair was a choice he made and I will not now or ever take responsibility for his lying, deceit and gas lighting. His abuse didn't result in my having an affair. We each chose a different path to deal with marital issues. I chose self medication and suicide, he chose to screw another man's wife.

[reboot]

I have major responsibility in the failure of my marriage. The abuse I inflicted was hurtful and destructive. Not trying to find out what was going on and getting help for what I knew was an issue. That contributed to the failure of my marriage. The affair was a choice he made and I will not now or ever take responsibility for his lying, deceit and gas lighting. His abuse didn't result in my having an affair. We each chose a different path to deal with marital issues. I chose self medication and suicide, he chose to screw another man's wife.

 

I could say much the same, and did, in fact, nearly 3 years ago when I was telling my story here. mem11363 was just pointing out, and I happen to agree with him, that many BS don't see it this way. I know I didn't for a long time. I mean, what the hell, I wasn't the one out screwing around, right?

 

As I said, it's not easy being that honest with ones self.

[Snowflower]

I could say much the same, and did, in fact, nearly 3 years ago when I was telling my story here. mem11363 was just pointing out, and I happen to agree with him, that many BS don't see it this way. I know I didn't for a long time. I mean, what the hell, I wasn't the one out screwing around, right?

 

As I said, it's not easy being that honest with ones self.

 

Thanks for clarifying, reboot.

 

Actually though, maybe the BS doesn't need to need blame themselves for what happened in the marriage...the WS and the AP blame the BS enough already! Just a joke...honestly! (I think)

[LostIt2010]

Just as you say the BS should blame themselves for their WS cheating (at least thatisthe jist of what it seems some are saying) how can the cheating spouse not have a part in the bad parts of a marriage too. why does it have to be about blame?

 

how can one expect a marriage or a relationship with many years tacked to it to be perfect all the time. that doesn't give somene the go ahead to start a relationship with another, while betraying and lying to their spouse who is trying to figure things out what is going on at home.

 

why not before an affair happens turn and look at the marriage, maybe even spend all the energy of lying, sneaking, and doing stuff for this OW/OM put it into your marriage.

[reboot]

Just as you say the BS should blame themselves for their WS cheating (at least thatisthe jist of what it seems some are saying) how can the cheating spouse not have a part in the bad parts of a marriage too. why does it have to be about blame?

 

how can one expect a marriage or a relationship with many years tacked to it to be perfect all the time. that doesn't give somene the go ahead to start a relationship with another, while betraying and lying to their spouse who is trying to figure things out what is going on at home.

 

why not before an affair happens turn and look at the marriage, maybe even spend all the energy of lying, sneaking, and doing stuff for this OW/OM put it into your marriage.

 

You aren't understanding what I said. I never said a BS has any blame for their WS cheating. They don't.

[LostIt2010]

But you said the BS has the blame for the marriage being weak enough so the other person goes and cheats? If a marriage is weak, or going through a slump, or not always perfect isn't it on both people. no long term relationship is not going to have cracks and weak periods. people act like one party pushes the other party to point they have no choice but to cheat and that isn't true. (not saying you, just some people)

 

I'm struggling with my own blame and trying to understand it.

[Trimmer]

But I will tell you I read very few accounts by BS where they acknowledge serious fault of their own in the marriage and I am skeptical about that.

If you're looking for a BS to say "I was at fault for the affair", then no, you won't find that, but I see lots of BS come to accept ( and advise other BS to consider ) their part in the disintegration of the marriage.

 

This silly notion that "a BS never accepts responsibility" crops up regularly. I addressed it several years ago here.

[Trimmer]

I could say much the same, and did, in fact, nearly 3 years ago when I was telling my story here. mem11363 was just pointing out, and I happen to agree with him, that many BS don't see it this way. I know I didn't for a long time. I mean, what the hell, I wasn't the one out screwing around, right?

 

As I said, it's not easy being that honest with ones self.

I agree with the part of this that asserts that it can be a long road toward understanding, but I also maintain that I still disagree with the implication of his original statement: "I read very few accounts by BS where they acknowledge serious fault of their own in the marriage... "

 

It's a long, hard, and painful road, but I find that many BS (no not all) come to a point of thoughtful reflection and ownership of their part in the demise of their marriage - and that includes me. That point may not come immediately during the whiplash that is revelation of an affair, decision to divorce, etc, but it does come for many, during the recovery period, which is longer and less dramatic.

[reboot]

But you said the BS has the blame for the marriage being weak enough so the other person goes and cheats? If a marriage is weak, or going through a slump, or not always perfect isn't it on both people. no long term relationship is not going to have cracks and weak periods. people act like one party pushes the other party to point they have no choice but to cheat and that isn't true. (not saying you, just some people)

 

I'm struggling with my own blame and trying to understand it.

 

I didn't say the BS is to blame for the marriage being weak, I said the BS usually has a share (of varying degree) of the blame for that. That's all. Of course WS also shares that blame.

[Spark1111]

Alright, here's another scenario:

 

Cute MM at work never mentions his wife, but he does talk a lot about his "friend." It's a woman. She works in the office near him and co-workers comment that they are always getting coffee together.

 

(I love the coffee theme, as if it is soooo innocent and no one notices! Ha!)

 

Once in awhile, he needs to stop by my office and I start chatting him up, flirting a little, laughing at his jokes. He loves the attention and starts finding reasons to visit my desk more and more....

 

I like the attention too and I am starting to become physically attracted to him. He NEVER or RARELy mentions his "friend" anymore in my presence, so I invite him over on Friday night to see where this may lead....

 

Am I truly an innocent in this situation?

 

I dare say NOT.

 

But hey, his vow is to his wife. That's between them. What is going on with that other woman has no definable, vowable, pledge or promise. I don't know her. I don't owe her anything. He is fair game if I can lure him away that quickly. She can't be so special if I can do this.

 

It may be all's fair in love and war, but this is simply wrong, unethical behavior, self-serving behavior, IMHO.

[Snowflower]

But you said the BS has the blame for the marriage being weak enough so the other person goes and cheats? If a marriage is weak, or going through a slump, or not always perfect isn't it on both people. no long term relationship is not going to have cracks and weak periods. people act like one party pushes the other party to point they have no choice but to cheat and that isn't true. (not saying you, just some people)

 

I'm struggling with my own blame and trying to understand it.

 

Lostit,

 

I'm glad to see you here posting and learning! Welcome to LS...I have learned so much about affairs in the almost 1.5 years I've been here. I call it a crash course in relationships and infidelity. Hope you'll stick around.

 

To answer your question above, it is a fine distinction between a BS (Betrayed Spouse) being blamed for their spouse's cheating versus being responsible for the state of the marriage before the affair.

 

Kind of like what you mention above, Lostit, every marriage has rough times, gets into a slump, spouses become distracted, you name it. However, if one (or both) spouses see that there is a problem, the right thing to do is address it, seek counseling, or even divorce if the problems are serious enough. It's considered being honest about the problems in the marriage and being upfront about feelings and concerns.

 

When a spouse is unhappy and doesn't do these things but instead embarks on an affair, well then that is their own bad choice and it is not the fault of the BS, no matter how bad the marriage is.

 

Do you see the difference? Sure, marriages have problems and the BS can be at fault for some/many/most of these problems. This is not a reason to cheat even though WS (Wayward Spouse-like your husband) often use the 'crappy marriage' as justification to have an affair.

 

It's something that is broken in the WS which causes this type of decision and it is not the fault of the BS.

[Trimmer]

I didn't say the BS is to blame for the marriage being weak, I said the BS usually has a share (of varying degree) of the blame for that. That's all. Of course WS also shares that blame.

I actually agree with your statements.

 

It helps me to take the word "blame" out of it, as this often sounds like an absolute, all or nothing, one or the other. My way of thinking of it - and I state this in terms of my own situation, as it comes across better than if I make it a sweeping generalization about all BS - is that I have come to consider and accept my share of responsibility for the state of our marriage. We both bear shares of that responsibility in varying textures and degrees, as you point out, and I will forever be sad that we did not recognize or take action together to right the ship.

 

So while the apparent cause of the end of our marriage was an OM and an affair, that doesn't change the fact that the state of our marriage to that point was the responsibility of both of us, and absolutely own that.

[reboot]

I agree, responsibility is a much better term than blame.

[bentnotbroken]

You aren't understanding what I said. I never said a BS has any blame for their WS cheating. They don't.

 

Absolutely no blame in the cheating. But it does take two to make a marriage work. Sometimes, some BS, me included added to the destruction, not the strengthening of my marriage.

[bentnotbroken]

But you said the BS has the blame for the marriage being weak enough so the other person goes and cheats? If a marriage is weak, or going through a slump, or not always perfect isn't it on both people. no long term relationship is not going to have cracks and weak periods. people act like one party pushes the other party to point they have no choice but to cheat and that isn't true. (not saying you, just some people)

 

I'm struggling with my own blame and trying to understand it.

 

 

No one can push me to make a choice I don't want to make. I am responsible for my decisions. If I had chosen to take my own life after finding out about Mr. Messy's affair, though finding out may have been the last straw for me, the choice was entirely mine to make. YOU don't need to lay blame at your feet for an affair choice if you didn't have the affair. Marriages are constant change. They grow, they heat up, they cool down and they turn cold. It is normal. But how we choose to deal with all of those phases is where the hard decisions come in. Blame, responsibility, or indifference there is equal to go around in a marriage.

[CrayonAngel]

Its simple IMHO they feel no responsibility for the same reason they sleep with a MP. A Moral defect.

[Ann_Igma]

Whilst I think that the OW in the example given by the OP definitely shows that particular person is not at all innocent, I think it entirely depends on the situation, how much/little responsibility the OW/OM should claim.

 

For example, if the WS lied to the OW/OM about being married until after the OW/OM was well and truly 'hooked' in the relationship, then I don't think the OW/OM really deserves much blame or to shoulder much responsibility at all.

 

If the OW/OM knew the WS was married, but usually only ever heard bad things being said by the WS about the M, then again I don't think they deserve a ton of responsibility - moreso than the first scenario, but still not much at all. Most people want to believe the best in others who they know and talk to, and so it's very easy to believe stories about the unknown third party being a bad person.

 

If the OW/OM knew the WS was married, and was friends with both parties, that's a whole different kettle of fish. I think THOSE people are doing a fair bit of first-hand betrayal themselves. It's still not comparable to the amount of betrayal being done by the WS, but they still definitely deserve to shoulder a fair amount of the responsibility for the A.

 

And of course, there are all sorts of varying degrees in between.

 

I also think there are varying degrees of responsibility for the BS (responsibility for the strength of the marriage and NOT for the A itself), and even to an extent, for the WS. For example, if someone is in some form of abusive relationship and turns to an A as an exit strategy - I would have a *lot* more compassion and understanding for them than for someone who was a SC. And of course there are a hundred variations in between the two extremes.

[bentnotbroken]

Whilst I think that the OW in the example given by the OP definitely shows that particular person is not at all innocent, I think it entirely depends on the situation, how much/little responsibility the OW/OM should claim.

 

For example, if the WS lied to the OW/OM about being married until after the OW/OM was well and truly 'hooked' in the relationship, then I don't think the OW/OM really deserves much blame or to shoulder much responsibility at all.

 

If the OW/OM knew the WS was married, but usually only ever heard bad things being said by the WS about the M, then again I don't think they deserve a ton of responsibility - moreso than the first scenario, but still not much at all. Most people want to believe the best in others who they know and talk to, and so it's very easy to believe stories about the unknown third party being a bad person.

 

If the OW/OM knew the WS was married, and was friends with both parties, that's a whole different kettle of fish. I think THOSE people are doing a fair bit of first-hand betrayal themselves. It's still not comparable to the amount of betrayal being done by the WS, but they still definitely deserve to shoulder a fair amount of the responsibility for the A.

 

And of course, there are all sorts of varying degrees in between.

 

I also think there are varying degrees of responsibility for the BS (responsibility for the strength of the marriage and NOT for the A itself), and even to an extent, for the WS. For example, if someone is in some form of abusive relationship and turns to an A as an exit strategy - I would have a *lot* more compassion and understanding for them than for someone who was a SC. And of course there are a hundred variations in between the two extremes.

 

 

The only scenario that could relieve the culpability of an affair partner is one that is lied to and they end the relationship as soon as they find out. If you know they are married (knowing the BS or not...abuse or not) and you participate, then you are wrong. Hooked like what a fish? Does that mean your brain no longer functions and your morals are trumped because you are "hooked"? Yup I can see telling my children that. "Honey, there are varying degrees of betrayal, lies, deceit and cheating. Make sure you go for the lesser degree." That would make me a stellar parent.

[seren]

I have absolutely no problem owning up to contributing to the gradual erosion of our marriage prior to my H's affair, however, the fact that he chose to avoid the problems by looking for what he had with us with someone else (anyone else) was all on him, his choice.

The OW, in a similar marital situation also chose to deal with her marital problems by having an A, her choice.

 

Me and her BS just trundled along trying to fix things, not realising that our respective WS's had an escape route out of the chaos, had a separate world where they could have all that they wanted their marriages to be (and could have been had they put the effort into fixing them too). My H knew he was acting like a complete and utter s*** toward me, he hated who he had become but didn't know how to fix it, with OW he could be who he used to be.

 

While the A was ongoing, OW was an accomplice to his actions and my H to hers. To be honest, while the A was ongoing neither gave any thought to their BS, both compartmentalised to the n'th degree. The hurt I felt was because of my H acting like a dickhead, it allowed him to justify why he should continue seeing OW. While the A was ongoing, OW was an accomplice to H's deceit, as was H to her BS. After D Day, OW didn't factor, my husband, my marriage, my choice to work on things.

 

OW begged me (yes begged) not to tell her H, said she was going to work on her M, he would throw her out, violent etc. I owed her nothing, so her life would be destroyed, her kids affected, she possibly beaten. Still, I owed her nothing - but I weighed up the consequences of MY actions on another's life and couldn't do it. Why? because there were people's lives involved, people who would have been hurt. My actions had far reaching consequences which outweighed my desire for revenge. My choice, my moral compass which is set firmly to being able to look myself in the mirror each night and say I have done good things today and been the best person I could be. It is a creed I have tried to live up to all my life.

 

I really, really thought long and hard about disclosure, as it was, my telling friends resulted in her BS contacting me for information. My response was he needed to talk to his wife for answers, but yes there was an A. I understand people saying they have no responsibility to the BS, well no, not as a partner, but surely as another human being accepting their contributing to pain caused by their condoning and participating in an action that will undoubtedly cause pain and hurt to another they have to see that accountability exists.

[Ann_Igma]

The only scenario that could relieve the culpability of an affair partner is one that is lied to and they end the relationship as soon as they find out. If you know they are married (knowing the BS or not...abuse or not) and you participate, then you are wrong. Hooked like what a fish? Does that mean your brain no longer functions and your morals are trumped because you are "hooked"? Yup I can see telling my children that. "Honey, there are varying degrees of betrayal, lies, deceit and cheating. Make sure you go for the lesser degree." That would make me a stellar parent.

 

I'm actually in the BS position myself, and I hope that I don't EVER find myself to be an OW. With the exception of the first scenario, I don't think I ever would have it in me to knowingly do that to anyone. However, I can empathise more with those in that middle-scenario and be more willing to forgive their actions than those at the extreme end.

 

I still don't agree with their actions, but I personally think the level of malice makes a difference.

 

Edit: I think I'm just lousy with words and seem to be misinterpreted here completely. Basically, I just don't think that all OM/OW are evil incarnate. I think that MOST of them do deserve to bear responsibility for their actions, but it's still subjective to individual circumstances.

 

Wrong is, of course, wrong. But I can and do find some wrongs easier to forgive than others.

Edited May 13, 2010 by Ann_Igma

[Ann_Igma]

Yup I can see telling my children that. "Honey, there are varying degrees of betrayal, lies, deceit and cheating. Make sure you go for the lesser degree." That would make me a stellar parent.

 

Actually, thinking about this, I wanted to come back and reply a bit more to it.

 

Of course I am going to teach my child that affairs are wrong, *hands down*! When it comes to teaching your children values, I believe that you do have to focus on teaching black and white, and avoid confusing them with grey areas. That doesn't mean there aren't grey areas!

 

I will also teach him that stealing is wrong. Does that mean if one day he plucks a flower out of someone's garden that I would feel he deserves to go to prison? No. Do I still think that it's stealing and that it's wrong? Yes. Will I still tell him that it's stealing and that it's wrong? Yes! But will I punish him as much as I would if I found out he stole another child's lunch money? Not at all!

 

I am rather offended at the idea that because I am trying to be at least somewhat open-minded and understanding of the individuals involved in A's means that I'm instantly a bad parent who won't be instilling values into my child!

[bentnotbroken]

I'm actually in the BS position myself, and I hope that I don't EVER find myself to be an OW. With the exception of the first scenario, I don't think I ever would have it in me to knowingly do that to anyone. However, I can empathise more with those in that middle-scenario and be more willing to forgive their actions than those at the extreme end.

 

I still don't agree with their actions, but I personally think the level of malice makes a difference.

 

Edit: I think I'm just lousy with words and seem to be misinterpreted here completely. Basically, I just don't think that all OM/OW are evil incarnate. I think that MOST of them do deserve to bear responsibility for their actions, but it's still subjective to individual circumstances.

 

Wrong is, of course, wrong. But I can and do find some wrongs easier to forgive than others.

 

 

:laugh:Words on a screen do lose something sometimes. I don't believe most AP are evil incarnate either, though some try to do their best imitation. I don't understand the mindset of being an AP so the empathy level diminishes when one chooses to remain involved after having the knowledge that the person one is in love with is married. Emotion shouldn't sort circuit our thinking, though it appears to happen daily.

[silktricks]

You chose a scenario that ensures the OW is at fault. She is the pursuer, she is the one who entices the H with her flirtations and gets him to a point where he has no choice but to begin the EA. In your heads, you believe that all OW are slutty girls, waiting to prey on men who are seaminly weak in their marriages, or create a fault in a marriage that may or may not be there... you are grossly mistaken.

 

Yes, I did choose a scenario that best illustrated my position. However, I also chose a scenario that I have watched play out at work a number of times - from both sides. The point is the playing the victim card when they (whether the OW/OM or the MM/MW) was actually the pursuer.

 

However, I would like to point out that I do not believe that all OW are slutty. Those are your words, and possibly your opinion. Not mine.

 

{snip}

 

While I appreciate your point about people getting themselves in situations, then claiming the victim...It is not a fair representation. Yes, the OW always has the choices to make in order to pursue the A any further once it starts.... and yes... things very quickly become difficult... and yes, everyone involved has the ability to end or change their actions at any time.

 

I don`t think anyone is claiming to be a victim.

 

First - in my opinion it is a completely fair representation. The OW has many choices to make far before the A ever begins, as does the married person. And yes, many people do claim to be a victim when they are in reality not a victim at all. They often created the situation themselves - and then when they don't like the outcome claim injury.

[bentnotbroken]

Actually, thinking about this, I wanted to come back and reply a bit more to it.

 

Of course I am going to teach my child that affairs are wrong, *hands down*! When it comes to teaching your children values, I believe that you do have to focus on teaching black and white, and avoid confusing them with grey areas. That doesn't mean there aren't grey areas!

 

I will also teach him that stealing is wrong. Does that mean if one day he plucks a flower out of someone's garden that I would feel he deserves to go to prison? No. Do I still think that it's stealing and that it's wrong? Yes. Will I still tell him that it's stealing and that it's wrong? Yes! But will I punish him as much as I would if I found out he stole another child's lunch money? Not at all!

 

I am rather offended at the idea that because I am trying to be at least somewhat open-minded and understanding of the individuals involved in A's means that I'm instantly a bad parent who won't be instilling values into my child!

 

 

I only spoke of my parenting. I don't/didn't teach my children, who are now older, that there were degrees to wrong. I told them when they did something there would be consequences they wouldn't like. There was no implication to your parenting, since I didn't know you had children. I only spoke of how I would/did teach my children. Shrug.

[Spark1111]

Whilst I think that the OW in the example given by the OP definitely shows that particular person is not at all innocent, I think it entirely depends on the situation, how much/little responsibility the OW/OM should claim.

 

At least half of the responsibility, IMHO. If I am fifty percent responsible for the demise of my marriage, the OW/OM is also 50% responsible for the affair's continuation.

 

For example, if the WS lied to the OW/OM about being married until after the OW/OM was well and truly 'hooked' in the relationship, then I don't think the OW/OM really deserves much blame or to shoulder much responsibility at all.

 

Disagree here too. The minute I discovered someone had lied to about their marital status, I'd end it immediately.

 

If the OW/OM knew the WS was married, but usually only ever heard bad things being said by the WS about the M, then again I don't think they deserve a ton of responsibility - moreso than the first scenario, but still not much at all. Most people want to believe the best in others who they know and talk to, and so it's very easy to believe stories about the unknown third party being a bad person.

 

I would never continue a relationship with someone who is complaining about how terrible their marriage is, unless I was very needy, vulnerable and GAVE MYSELF permission to not care about the spouse. Personally, couldn't do it.

If the OW/OM knew the WS was married, and was friends with both parties, that's a whole different kettle of fish. I think THOSE people are doing a fair bit of first-hand betrayal themselves. It's still not comparable to the amount of betrayal being done by the WS, but they still definitely deserve to shoulder a fair amount of the responsibility for the A.

 

Horrible betrayal! Maybe the worst of all the scenarios out there.

 

And of course, there are all sorts of varying degrees in between.

 

I also think there are varying degrees of responsibility for the BS (responsibility for the strength of the marriage and NOT for the A itself), and even to an extent, for the WS. For example, if someone is in some form of abusive relationship and turns to an A as an exit strategy - I would have a *lot* more compassion and understanding for them than for someone who was a SC. And of course there are a hundred variations in between the two extremes.

 

Exit affairs are understandable, but very, very rare! Usually the marriage is well over and done with WAY BEFORE the WS bumps into the AP. How can you tell it is an exit affair? Friends and family are jumping up and down in their support of the new couple.