My wife's affair was with her mother, but she died, now what?

[CaliPilot]

I have a most unusual situation and would appreciate your comments. The title is a bit misleading. She did not have a sexual affair with her mother, but it was almost as bad. After we made what I consider a huge mistake in moving in with her divorced mother the fighting began. Her mother would never stay out of my business, and tried to dictate everything, and never let us discuss anything without chiming in or criticizing. She was very manipulative and when I threatened to take my wife and move out after a few months of this, she gave her intentions away by breaking down and crying and saying "I can't be left again." She was inseperable from her daughter and her daughter gave in to the manipulation for complex historical reasons. Ultimately she and her mother were spending all their time together, taking my newborn to 6 year old daughter out and not answering the phone and making it hard to know where they were (shopping, and then saying the baby slept best in the car). But here is the real kicker. A couple years later, her mother was diagnosed with an inoperable brain tumor and told she had a year to live. She ended up living for almost 3 years and just died a couple months ago. Since her mother and I did not see eye to eye (primarily because I despised her meddling in out marriage and telling me how to run my business, and everything else) or for whatever reason, her mother once diagnosed told my wife and other family members to exclude me from the knowledge of her terminal illness. To make a long story short, I only found out about it a couple months before she died, and in retrospect wondered why my wife (who kept the secret) was so cold and why the two of them just grew closer and closer and why her mother continued to only despise me more. Keep in mind, all this time she was living with her mother in her mother's house and I was living on my own, but we were still married and trying to move back in together - or so I thought. I was very busy and traveling a lot and never did divorce her and in fact came over the house almost every day and tried to maintain some semblance of a marriage with her and of course needed to see my daughter. But what her mother did in keeping this terminal illness from me (and my wife's complicity in that) promoted an extremely strange imbalance in that my wife was staring at losing her mother (and they were close!) and I had no idea and just thought she had been brainwashed by her mother (which she had!) but when I tried to push the issue to its conclusion, she always seemed to slip away, or make an excuse, or go on a trip ... and so it took me finding out about this illness by a relative after the symptoms became too obvious. Ok, now with her mother gone, we are trying to pick up the pieces of our marriage with our 6 year old daughter, but we are still living apart. She has agreed to counseling but had stalled getting it, making one excuse after another, but says she will in two weeks after a big even she is organizing. I cannot bring up her mother or the way she mistreated me - that is taboo now - and I also wonder if she has been having an affair, but have no evidence and estimate it at about 30%. She also never told me that she has had a laptop computer for 3 years (saying she needed it to look up info on her mother's illness) but she would not tell me her email address when I asked. She also might have 2 cell phones and the one she uses for three years reverse numbers to some 75 year old woman .. very strange! I am trying to untangle this whole mess. I do love her ... or I thought I did ... and we have a terrific daughter ... and my wife says she wants to be married and to work it out in counseling (when .. hello!), but the passion is gone from her eyes and I am starting to lose it - actually did a while ago. The question is complex ... but how much of this is her grieving her mother's death, how much is it that she cannot come to divorce me but doesn't want to be with me, how much is it that she is just numb, and what's the deal with the computer, no email, no key to the house yet ... but I go over every day almost and things are on the surface semi-normal with a hello and goodbye kiss .. but it is almost as if the mother in law is still controlling her from the grave (she died 3.5 months ago) ... and I wonder if there is any chance to get the old - and it has been a long time - feelings back ... and how long I should wait .. and what strategies should I take to find out if we should stay married. I cannot see her avoiding love or sex or passion for so long, but she has with me, and that is why I wonder if there is an affair. The real affair, however, was with her mother ... and I guess I am just confused about the whole thing now .. and wonder how she and how I will ever be the same. Ideas? Thanks.

[Holding-On]

Hi. Well you are in a tough spot.

From what you have written it would seem that your wife is very emotionally damaged. From what you have written it sounds like her mother was emotionally incestuous. She did not want her daughter to live her own life and have her own happiness.

I do not think you can expect a real marriage from your wife the way you could from an emotionally healthy woman.

 

Unfortunately there is nothing you can do about your wife. She has to want to heal herself.

 

I personally would be working on myself and making myself happy and whole (ethically of course). Do the hobbies you want to do. Work out and make time for friends and people who are good to you back.

 

Set up the counselling appointments and then go yourself. If your wife does not show up, keep a diary of it. In the end, if you need to get legal rights to your daughter (if your wife does the same thing her mother did with her), you will have a pattern to prove alienation.

 

Persist in making sure you get to spend time with your daughter - go to all her school plays, show up at the house and help her with her homework, arrange daddy daughter outings to movies and such on the weekends. Establish your parental rights. Just do it and if your wife objects demand that she give you a good reason why.

 

 

Good luck. Your situation sounds very tragic.

[Blindsidedagainalive]

Wow. Complex isn't even a strong enough word.

 

I can't imagine the dynamic of a MIL dying without you knowing.

 

Without you knowing, THEIR resentment builds ....because they FEEL the upcoming inevitable....but you have no idea. So, you behave like usual.....and they expect more empathetic behaviour.......as if you knew what was happening.

 

Now, you put the puzzle together in hindsight, and I imagine the resentment must be heavy on your side.

 

The two of you need to get to a very good counselor......and stick with it to unravel this mess.

 

I am so sorry to hear of this complicated situation.

[carhill]

what strategies should I take to find out if we should stay married

 

1. Start 'grief' counseling next week. Other people know it as marriage counseling. Check back with us in six months.

 

2. If, as you say, 'my wife says she wants to be married and to work it out in counseling', and her actions and words don't match up, get legal advice as to how to structure a divorce to advantage your parenting and spousal position relevant to the hell you've been through. I'd spare no rods. It will only be with time you will come to understand the true nature of the damage she and her family did to you and perhaps your child.

 

Good luck and welcome to LS

[Chrome Barracuda]

I dont think personally it was an affair. it was a emotional damaging relationship, that's for sure.

 

Her mother crippled this woman so badly she is stuck...

 

And it's not your fault. I dont think you married a well adjusted emotionally set woman. If you guys are seperated and she's showing no signs of turning towards you or just getting IC to fixing herself and her issues. then how long are you gonna put up with her bull****??? I mean really?

 

Think about it. get back to me on that? How much are you willing to take until you get fed up and file divorce papers. it doesnt sound to me like she even wants to be married, she's giving you lip service.

 

Give her time, but not too much time whereas she does nothing...

[carhill]

OP, as you and your wife know, a counseling session is about 45 minutes, plus another 5-10 minutes for bookkeeping/payment and whatever travel time there is. Both stbx and I worked (we're both self-employed) and, for me, I had to drive about 30 minutes to the appointments and still we both managed to go for 14 months, or about 28 sessions in total. If she *says* she wants to go, it's easy to go. Counselors are very flexible, offering hours of the day not normally customary for the medical profession. Early morning? Yup. 7pm? Fit it in, no problem. Counselors are used to people who rationalize and make excuses.

 

A simple phone call gets it all started. It's a helluva lot cheaper than the phone call (and retainer) to a divorce lawyer. One step at a time.

[jnj express]

The question IS NOT COMPLEX----YOU are allowing your wife to run your mge. You allowed it with her mother alive, and you are allowing it now.

 

Right now you DON'T have a mge. So what do you propose to do about it. Either tell your wife to join you in this mge., or tell her if she refuses that option,( and she has no reason not to since her mother has passed,) she will be the recipient of D documents. Stop pussy footing around, either you are married, or you arn't, its just that simple. There are no other complexities. Sh*t or get off the pot.

[CaliPilot]

Terrific comments Holding-on. I am indeed doing the hobbies I enjoy. It's amazing that her mother did not realize that what she was doing would hurt everyone. I think what happened is that an already damaged personality went into some kind of strange panic mode (like many would and it must be horrible to receive that diagnosis) and started making even less rational choices.

[CaliPilot]

Wow. Complex isn't even a strong enough word.

 

I can't imagine the dynamic of a MIL dying without you knowing.

 

----> It was indeed strange! Kind of like 3 years of aha ... now it kind of makes sense ... even though it really did not at all make sense that they would keep such a secret so long!

 

Without you knowing, THEIR resentment builds ....because they FEEL the upcoming inevitable....but you have no idea. So, you behave like usual.....and they expect more empathetic behaviour.......as if you knew what was happening.

 

----> Guess guys are supposed to figure that out about women too! LOL ... wow.

 

Now, you put the puzzle together in hindsight, and I imagine the resentment must be heavy on your side.

 

----> It is indeed ... but I would like to put it behind.

 

The two of you need to get to a very good counselor......and stick with it to unravel this mess.

 

I am so sorry to hear of this complicated situation.

 

----> Thanks ... you have a great grasp of it ... I can tell

[CaliPilot]

thanks Carhill - good advice

[White Flower]

Sounds like your W first needs to grieve the loss of her mother.

 

Yes, it was a very strange R she had with her mother. Why the need to leave the house for hours every day? I don't buy that the child slept best in the car, how can that be good for a child on a regular basis? This might explain a cover up in an A, but why would mom be so involved knowing full well she was going to die and your W would lose her cover? Sounds very complicit but not very practical.

 

I would see to it that your W got counseling immediately because she

 

1) needs to grieve the loss of her mother

2) needs to understand how abnormally close she was to her mother and

3) understand how this mother/daughter R hurt your M and maybe even your kids

 

Then I would have that counseling evolve into M counseling so that you and she can rebuild your M into a healthier one that you can live with.

[CaliPilot]

I dont think personally it was an affair. it was a emotional damaging relationship, that's for sure.

 

Her mother crippled this woman so badly she is stuck...

 

----> Very well put. I am amazed that she did not have the insight to see what her mother was doing all those years! I guess since her father was not in the picture, she put all her eggs in one basket and blood was thicker than water .. unfortunately she placed her bets on a dying horse - literally - and I mean no harm to the woman - none at all - but she had no right meddling in our marriage and I am amazed that my wife did not ever perceive this and still cannot ... emotions cloud judgment and reason so much.

 

And it's not your fault. I dont think you married a well adjusted emotionally set woman. If you guys are seperated and she's showing no signs of turning towards you or just getting IC to fixing herself and her issues. then how long are you gonna put up with her bull****??? I mean really?

 

----> Good point. There will be a point where I say that is enough ... and the only reason I have hung in so long is because I always knew intuitively that her mother was doing something manipulative ... but never in a thousand years would have guessed that her very death would be a weapon to alienate the couple she so promoted 13 years earlier in our marriage ... all very strange

 

Think about it. get back to me on that? How much are you willing to take until you get fed up and file divorce papers. it doesnt sound to me like she even wants to be married, she's giving you lip service.

 

---- > Time will tell. In a strange way, if there is an affair I would actually like to find it and it would in a perverted way be a relief! Why? Because it would tell me that she is more normal and has a more healthy desire for intimacy with a male ... she was never like this before - her mother essentially stole her soul ... and I hate to say this about a person who is no longer with us ... and I also in a way grieved her death ... but that was never taking into consideration.

 

Give her time, but not too much time whereas she does nothing...

 

----> nicely put .. this forum is made of smart people with great ideas

[CaliPilot]

The question IS NOT COMPLEX----YOU are allowing your wife to run your mge. You allowed it with her mother alive, and you are allowing it now.

 

----> Yes, in some ways this is true JNJ, but in other ways I was so blown away by the insanity of her mother's manipulation and the fact that my wife did not see it, that it was like hanging in there with a sick patient (my wife) who had not yet woken from her slumber. If it had been manipulation fostered and initiated by my wife (it was not) I would have left a long long time ago ... but since it came from a third party, I could not see destroying my marriage because of the evil ways of a confused and lonely mother in law .. it would be giving in rather than fighting the patient and good fight.

 

Right now you DON'T have a mge. So what do you propose to do about it. Either tell your wife to join you in this mge., or tell her if she refuses that option,( and she has no reason not to since her mother has passed,) she will be the recipient of D documents. Stop pussy footing around, either you are married, or you arn't, its just that simple. There are no other complexities. Sh*t or get off the pot.

 

-----> You are right ... I do not have a marriage at all. It's funny, I have even thought of that **** or get off the pot quote :-) ... you are right on ... but with me I tend to play it out a long long time before I finally pull the trigger. I have been in relationships that ended in the past prematurely and I guess I am biased in trying to pull out all stops to save them .... but you are right in that I ultimately need to make a strong decision. It maybe is not complex from where you sit ... but from here it is LOL

[CaliPilot]

Sounds like your W first needs to grieve the loss of her mother.

 

-----> How long?

 

Yes, it was a very strange R she had with her mother. Why the need to leave the house for hours every day? I don't buy that the child slept best in the car, how can that be good for a child on a regular basis?

 

-----> It kept the mother with the daughter in the car with our daughter and away from me. It was sick. The mother in law was clever in a devious way.

 

This might explain a cover up in an A, but why would mom be so involved knowing full well she was going to die and your W would lose her cover? Sounds very complicit but not very practical.

 

-----> Could it be that she was getting back at the husband who divorced her 30 years prior and ran off with the secretary ... and since she never really had a relationship after her husband left, was she in effect using her daughter to get the jollies she never got at my expense! Wow ... I just had an insight that this could be a bit like a sort of emotional Munchausen's by Proxy ... in which the mother promulgated an emotional harm on her daughter and granddaughter (alienating them from their husband and daddy) so that she would get all the attention from the granddaughter and I would be punished for what her husband did to her 30 years prior ... wow ... by the way, can you tell I have a background in psychology ... but not sure it the M by Proxy explanation does it ... anyone have another idea?

 

I would see to it that your W got counseling immediately because she

 

1) needs to grieve the loss of her mother

2) needs to understand how abnormally close she was to her mother and

 

----> YES YES on #2 ... but she may never admit that

 

3) understand how this mother/daughter R hurt your M and maybe even your kids

 

----> For sure ... but again, I don't know how my wife will ever be able to admit that ... the two of them were with each other 24/7 forever! They even dressed the same.

 

Then I would have that counseling evolve into M counseling so that you and she can rebuild your M into a healthier one that you can live with.

 

-----> I love your ideas .. just hope they can come true

[White Flower]

-----> I love your ideas .. just hope they can come true

You have a background in psychology? Would that be forensic psychology? LOL. Just kidding. I said that because you just came up with that fantastic plot. Revenge by marriage proxy 30 years later on the son-in-law. Wow!

[CaliPilot]

LOL .. no forensic background here .. and I'm not even a tv junkie! I actually just thought of the idea as I was typing in this rich forum. And as unfathomable as it sounds, it just might be a valid theory ... her anger toward males was palpable at times ... and maybe she targeted me for her daughter cause I reminded her of her ex ... who knows ... I just know I had a sweet and caring wife once - the best - but she got totally blasted by a miserable, jealous, needy, and clinging control freak who thought she was doing right to interfere in everything about our marriage ... how could she not see that she was messing with her own daughter's future marriage ... hence the theory gains more wind!!!!! Just might be the best answer to this mystery!!!! Any Hollywood film-makers listening? But seriously .. it was a very strange decade and even more bizarre last three years.

[Culthbert]

Hi Calipilot,

 

I'm very sorry to read about this weird relationship your wife had with her mother. I have to say that I see echoes of your MIL in my MIL - she currently has Alzheimers, but she had some similarities with yours - a divorce 40+ years ago, no relationship since then, and a very close pull on my wife while she was growing up. For awhile in our marriage, in what I call the "Bad Old Days", she used to come down every summer and take my wife and kids for a week for vacation, without me, and I know she did her best to turn my wife against me during that time. And when my wife was contemplating divorce, she envisioned moving back to her home city and living near her mother...

 

I was very fortunate in that once my wife and I reconciled, she started to see her mother and her relationship with her mother for what it was. Her mother's increasing hostility as she descended into Alzheimers helped, too, but my wife can clearly see now that as a child she was never encouraged to pursue her dreams and was actually discouraged from having any friends. She can see that her mother used her for years as her only real relationship, and she can see the damage her mother tried to do to our marriage.

 

While I think your situation is a very strange one, I think it is likely to be just a very, very advanced case of a dynamic that may be more common that we think...

 

All the best in whatever course you choose to take. My situation turned around very dramatically (we have a very happy marriage now that is a bedrock for both of us), but my wife never did leave to go live with her mother, either. The years of living with her mother have undoubtably done a lot of damage to your wife's psyche and it could take a long time to repair... but if she doesn't get started soon, she will end up going down the same road as your MIL did... and that could very well affect your daughter when she gets married... so you have a lot to think about...

[CaliPilot]

thanks so much Culthbert! You never know what life is going to throw your way! What is prophetically creepy, is that at our marriage in 1997 someone overheard my MIL saying, he doesn't know it, but when he married her he married me too! ... I thought it was just a joke then ... but learned soon enough that there is often truth in humor ... even sick humor!

[Chrome Barracuda]

....id rather you just file for divorce now, save yourself the headache. she's damaged goods.

[Blindsidedagainalive]

sort of emotional Munchausen's by Proxy ... in which the mother promulgated an emotional harm on her daughter and granddaughter (alienating them from their husband and daddy) so that she would get all the attention from the granddaughter and I would be punished for what her husband did to her 30 years prior ... wow ... by the way, can you tell I have a background in psychology ... but not sure it the M by Proxy explanation does it ... anyone have another idea?

 

A great insight, but perhaps too much labeling.

 

Mom loved daughter, and wanted to be first.....NOT second. She did what she could to ensure this. She wanted to ensure the daughters love. To make you second, she had to bring you down.

 

This may not be due to the loss of her husband (although a valid theory), it may be due to HER family of origin/childhood issues.

 

It's a bit late to psychoanalyze grandma.

Your wife was part of this dynamic, and thats where the focus needs to be. I think this will take time for her in IC. You should do MC as well.

[CaliPilot]

right on blind side ... I agree with your view here.

[CaliPilot]

Chrome, LOL, wish I could, but it's not easy. My whole nature screams against it? Why? Am I afraid? Or is there hope? How does one let go? Divorce is so painful to all ... it's kind of like saying "tear off your arm now and you will survive another 40 years but without an arm and you might get one back but no guarantees ... but if you do not tear off your arm right now you will keep living now and the next few years but it will probably ultimately come to a head and you will get divorced" ... so that "probability of making it work" and not having to tear off your arm now keeps you from doing what might even appear to be a more rational choice! ... I am truly stuck on this one and would appreciate any added insight ... anyone out there brilliant enough to convince me of Chrome's argument ... i have not been able to be convinced yet! LOL

[Culthbert]

I think there are good and valid arguments for both sides of the equation. I would say that you need to figure out how much you are willing to put yourself through... realizing there are no guarantees that she can ever come around. I would advise that if you decide to try to reconcile, that you do so whole-heartedly and put your all into it. I would advise that if you decide to divorce, that you make sure you safeguard your parental rights, because without your active presence in your daughter's life, I could see your wife perpetuating this twisted family dynamic onto your daughter and into another generation.

 

If you decide to reconcile, you will need to know what you want, and how you propose to get there. Then, you'll need to lead, really lead, and she will have to either follow your lead or fall behind. And you should have a deadline in mind, although you don't need to tell her that. But as there are no guarantees she will ever come around, you need to decide how long you are willing to invest in this, and prepare an "exit plan". And then, once you've done that, give it your all for as long as you can, be patient, and realize you'll be shouldering most of the load for most of the way.