When is it ok to have an affair?

[OWoman]

I still want nothing to do with my father and he has been doing some serious work on himself in the last year, finally. I will probably never want something to do with him. I know that OWoman said she was happy when her father found new love because her mother had wrecked her dignity with alcohol long ago. Does this mean that having an affair is okay when the partner being cheated on is not "up to par?" What if it was your mother who had cheated? And why could your father no simply leave?

 

Nope, that's not what I said. I didn't say I was happy my father found new love BECAUSE my mother had trashed her dignity; I said I was happy my father found new love AND that it had no impact on my mother's dignity, as that had been lost long ago elsewise. The two were not causally linked.

 

I was happy my father found new love because it made him happy, accessible to us as kids, and lightened the mood in the house. I was happy that something positive happened. If my mother had found new love, too, I'd have been even happier. I just wished the two of them had split up, so that they didn't keep adding to each other's, their own, and everyone else's unhappiness by staying together.

 

You ask, why could my father not simply leave. I remember asking him that, as a small child - not yet in school. I was told never ever again to mention that. It was forbidden territory. My father and mother both felt the weight of duty - you created these kids, you stick around and raise them until they're old enough to leave home. So that's what they did, much as they both didn't want to be there. We would ALL have been a lot happier if they'd split, but that wasn't a possibility for them, because their moral frameworks would not allow it. Even today, when I ask them about it, they both still maintain that they did the best thing they could at the time.

[OWoman]

Many of us think that the world was created for our convenience and for our life.

 

And those of us who are atheist, who believe that the world evolved, and that we're merely one organism competing with billions of others, for survival on this planet?

[OWoman]

Agreed. If it makes me happy, then it must be right...regardless of how others are affected.

 

And that is how "morals" are defined by some people. True morality refers directly to what is right and wrong, regardless of what people think.

 

My morality sees no inherent problem in having an A - regardless of what people think. You may not agree with my position, but it is a moral position, and a morally consistent position. I do not change my stance depending on whether or not it suits my mood at a particular time.

 

(And - hedonism can also be a moral code, for those that follow it. It's as valid as an externally prescribed one like the bible or the torah or the qur'an or any other religious text.)

[OWoman]

An organism eat organism world then?

 

Yep - my H is busy cooking organisms right now for supper!

[califnan]

I have never thought of morals as owned - as in: my moral code.. Morals are the distinction between what is right and what is wrong.

[jennie-jennie]

Here's where many will disagree with you. Children learn relationships from their parents...he's teaching his (by his own example) that it's ok to cheat in a relationship, lie to your partner (their mom), and otherwise do what makes you feel good, rather than attempt to work out or end the relationship appropriately.

 

I actually agree with this, Owl, and have told my MM as much.

 

You ask, why could my father not simply leave. I remember asking him that, as a small child - not yet in school. I was told never ever again to mention that. It was forbidden territory. My father and mother both felt the weight of duty - you created these kids, you stick around and raise them until they're old enough to leave home. So that's what they did, much as they both didn't want to be there. We would ALL have been a lot happier if they'd split, but that wasn't a possibility for them, because their moral frameworks would not allow it. Even today, when I ask them about it, they both still maintain that they did the best thing they could at the time.

 

"...their moral frameworks would not allow it." That is exactly why my MM is still in his marriage although he has a new love. Phrasing it that way is so interesting to me. So it IS about morals.

[MadMission]

My morality sees no inherent problem in having an A

 

OW,

 

Can you define your morality for us?

 

Because I suspect that your morality differs from the morals and values of many here on LS.

 

When it comes to marriage...or comitted relationships...enduring relationships, what do you value?...what is important to you? What makes the marriage a marriage? What is it about your H which you love so much?

 

There are no right or wrong answers here. I am just trying to understand your morality because it must be very different from my own.

 

Many of us have morals/values which include things like:

 

*honesty

*respect

*loyalty

*trust

*genuineness

*sincerity

*consideration

*empathy

*kindness

*care

*unselfishness

*etc

 

 

A man or woman who realizes that they want out of the M...who informs their spouse....and follows up with a D, is acting in accordance with this list.

 

But, affairs require behaviors/words/actions which are not consistant with this list...at all.

 

So, I am wondering how you would define your morality...maybe create a list... as it relates to relationships and the dynamics between a man and woman.

 

Affairs require things like dishonesty and disrespect. So, if your morality sees no inherent problem with affairs, then are dishonesty and disrespect part of your morality? Selfishness and manipulation.... things you value? How about being fake? Would these things be on your morality list?

 

Like I said, there are no right or wrong answers here.

And, maybe you ascribe to some or all the behaviors required to carry on an affair...as it is consistant with your own morality.

But, if that's really true, then can I assume that the dynamics between you and your H comfortably include mutual dishonesty, disrespect, disloyalty, ingenuousness? Because this IS inherently what affairs are all about...and are, thus, the things you have no inherent problem with.

 

Like I said, I suspect your morality is quite different from my own...and many fellow LS members.

 

And, maybe if you clarified your morality for us, we could then call a truce of sorts regarding the differences of opinion on infidelity and affairs.

 

Of course those of us who value honesty and loyalty and faithfulness will have an inherent problem with affairs.

And, those of us who do NOT value honesty and loyalty will not have an inherent problem with affairs.

 

Maybe it's as simple as that.

[mzdolphin]

From Wikipedia:

"Moral relativism may be any of several descriptive, meta-ethical, or normative positions regarding the differences in moral or ethical judgments between different people and cultures."

 

As quoted above, morals may differ between people and cultures, which is very evident to me since I am not from the dominating US culture on LS. Some people believe morals are absolute, I do not. I go by my own sense of moral.

 

Bananalaffytaffy, I am the poster you are referring to so I will try to answer your questions.

 

I am a human being. I have a right to love another human being. The man I love loves me. Unfortunately he has "prior legal commitments" (borrowing FA's words here). That does not diminish the right I have to love and be loved by this man.

 

Do I have a right to be in a relationship with him? My morals do not require me to keep away from another woman's husband if we are in love and he is willingly participating in a relationship with me. His marriage is not my problem, it is his.

 

I am not lying to or deceiving anyone. I never went behind the back of my now exSO. I told him I was having a parallel relationship with MM. Eventually I ended my relationship with my SO. Thus I was never unfaithful or dishonest to my SO. I have done what was required of me.

 

I would not do what my MM does. But I am not him. I encourage him to make a decision, to not keep me secret, to tell his wife, to go to IC, but I can not do it for him.

 

I guess the difference in perspective between me and many of the LS posters is mainly that I am responsible for my actions, not my MM's actions, and he is responsible for keeping his vows, not I.

 

Marriage is not as highly respected in my culture as in the US. Most kids have divorced parents. Most people have been married or in common-law marriages multiple times. A marriage or a relationship is not really expected to last a lifetime here.

 

I never imagined that I would be in a long term affair. In my world you choose. In my world you divorce if you are in love with someone else. Apparently even my MM's morals are different than mine. Which just goes to show that morals differ between people and cultures.

 

I am a product of US culture and grew up in a religious family. However, over the years, my thoughts on this subject have changed. I believe that if you are honest first with yourself, and then with your partner and others in your life, then you can do what you wish, as long as it is legal and doesn't cause folks emotional harm. As the the BS, they are in the relationship with the MM. That is theirs. But as the OW you have to be honest and realize that you are not in a "real relationship" with this man. You can't roll up to his house and say hello. In fact if you are the OW, the recommend you not allowing him to roll up to your house and say hello. I'm just saying keep it honest and call it what it is and not what you wish it to be.

[mzdolphin]

Jennie-Jennie

 

You have used this argument before but the statistics I have found do not support this. According to the site I have linked below (which has broadly similar data compared to other sites I have found), the divorce rate in the US is 54.8%, compared to 44.5% in the country I think you are from. In fact, only one country has a higher divorce rate than the US and that is Sweden at 54.9%.

 

http://www.darndivorce.com/divorce-rates-around-the-world/

 

Not that she can't defend herself. But these stats support her case. Meaning, the US has the most absolute "moral" believes about marriage, but yet they have the high divorce rate.

[mzdolphin]

What a good point

 

Jealousy and lying are mentioned as wrong and attacked more in the Bible than murder.

 

Yet folks don't throw jealous people in jail.

 

 

God (or least in the so-called Holy books) does not rank sin. People do. So if you think cheating is worse than being jealous, then what "right" do you have to think that way? How dare you show envy when God instructs you not to.

 

Just saying . . .

[donnamaybe]

Jealousy and lying are mentioned as wrong and attacked more in the Bible than murder.

 

Yet folks don't throw jealous people in jail.

 

 

God (or least in the so-called Holy books) does not rank sin. People do. So if you think cheating is worse than being jealous, then what "right" do you have to think that way? How dare you show envy when God instructs you not to.

 

Just saying . . .

 

Huh?

 

A cheater IS lying. ALL THE F'ING TIME!

[mzdolphin]

Nice job excusing the OW or OM in this.

 

 

If you look up the definition of adultery, it does not address the OW/OM. Only the person breaking their vows.

 

Doesn't mean the OW/OM shouldn't take responsibility for the mess they find themselves in. But if you don't cheat on your spouse than adultery does not get committed. It's that simple.

[mzdolphin]

Huh?

 

A cheater IS lying. ALL THE F'ING TIME!

 

 

Yes a cheater is lying. But the person the cheater is cheating with may not be.

[donnamaybe]

OW,

 

Can you define your morality for us?

 

Because I suspect that your morality differs from the morals and values of many here on LS.

 

When it comes to marriage...or comitted relationships...enduring relationships, what do you value?...what is important to you? What makes the marriage a marriage? What is it about your H which you love so much?

 

There are no right or wrong answers here. I am just trying to understand your morality because it must be very different from my own.

 

Many of us have morals/values which include things like:

 

*honesty

*respect

*loyalty

*trust

*genuineness

*sincerity

*consideration

*empathy

*kindness

*care

*unselfishness

*etc

 

 

A man or woman who realizes that they want out of the M...who informs their spouse....and follows up with a D, is acting in accordance with this list.

 

But, affairs require behaviors/words/actions which are not consistant with this list...at all.

 

So, I am wondering how you would define your morality...maybe create a list... as it relates to relationships and the dynamics between a man and woman.

 

Affairs require things like dishonesty and disrespect. So, if your morality sees no inherent problem with affairs, then are dishonesty and disrespect part of your morality? Selfishness and manipulation.... things you value? How about being fake? Would these things be on your morality list?

 

Like I said, there are no right or wrong answers here.

And, maybe you ascribe to some or all the behaviors required to carry on an affair...as it is consistant with your own morality.

But, if that's really true, then can I assume that the dynamics between you and your H comfortably include mutual dishonesty, disrespect, disloyalty, ingenuousness? Because this IS inherently what affairs are all about...and are, thus, the things you have no inherent problem with.

 

Like I said, I suspect your morality is quite different from my own...and many fellow LS members.

 

And, maybe if you clarified your morality for us, we could then call a truce of sorts regarding the differences of opinion on infidelity and affairs.

 

Of course those of us who value honesty and loyalty and faithfulness will have an inherent problem with affairs.

And, those of us who do NOT value honesty and loyalty will not have an inherent problem with affairs.

 

Maybe it's as simple as that.

Gotta bump this, because this is a GREAT post!

[donnamaybe]

Yes a cheater is lying. But the person the cheater is cheating with may not be.

 

It's called "aiding and abetting."

[mzdolphin]

This is the crux of the problem. For all the people who say A's are okay, what about the spouse of the cheater? If they do NOT think A's are okay, did the cheater tell them prior to marriage that he/she was going to sleep around?

 

If there wasn't full disclosure prior to entering the marriage, then it's WRONG WRONG WRONG!!!!!

 

 

I say if it's out in the open, then no hard no foul. I find it odd that folks who believe cheating is wrong are the same folks who believe the OW should never inform the wife about his cheating. I think the wife needs to know. Dumb the cheat and tell the wife. Because if you keep that truth from her, then you too are participating in deception.

 

But if she knows, and he knows she knows and they have some type of open marriage and you don't want to be married. Why not?

[mzdolphin]

That is because many of us (even if we believe we don't think this way) believe that we are the star. It is like the movie The Truman Show. Many of us think that the world was created for our convenience and for our life.

 

 

Bad analogy. Truman was the star and had NO idea the world was created for him. Felt betrayed when he found out everyone around him knew the truth but him.

 

The same way the W feels. So I say tell her her husband is cheating. Apologize. Have no contact with him. That is the way to do it. You can't tell her and try to stay with him. You have to be respectful to her/or him. Don't go into details. Just saying your husband has been cheating with me. I thought you deserved to know. You have my word that I will stop seeing him. This way if they want to work on the marriage and recover, then you've helped move that process along. If she knew he was a cheat (from previous affairs) and decides she wants nothing to do with him, you've move that process along too. If they divorce and a year later he wants to be with you, you've moved that along to. But at least this way you have no secrets.

 

Because the betrayal is far worse than the sex outside of marriage. The "i've wasted 10 good years of my life with this fool" is what drives you nuts.

[donnamaybe]

The "i've wasted 10 good years of my life with this fool" is what drives you nuts.

 

That's it, exactly! THIS is why a BS should know.

[anne1707]

Not that she can't defend herself. But these stats support her case. Meaning, the US has the most absolute "moral" believes about marriage, but yet they have the high divorce rate.

 

How exactly does it prove her beliefs? Her argument is that divorce is accepted more in her country than the US. I post a link which shows that the divorce rate is higher in the US than her country. Does this not imply that divorce is actually more likely in the US?

 

Additionally the site I linked did not refer to "moral beliefs" in marriage so I cannot understand your reasoning for that part of your argument

[jennie-jennie]

How exactly does it prove her beliefs? Her argument is that divorce is accepted more in her country than the US. I post a link which shows that the divorce rate is higher in the US than her country. Does this not imply that divorce is actually more likely in the US?

 

Additionally the site I linked did not refer to "moral beliefs" in marriage so I cannot understand your reasoning for that part of your argument

 

Anne, I have thought about this. I have close American friends so I notice a distinct difference in the outlook on marriage and divorce from what is prevalent in my country. I wonder if it could be that American couples try longer to work on their marriage but then have to give up anyway?

 

Or could it be as I mentioned earlier that certain groups in the US have very high divorce rates and that that thus slants the divorce rate for the entire population? What I am saying is that I believe the Americans are more heterogeneous in that some groups may have a low divorce rate and others a high, which could average the same divorce rate as a more homogeneous country.

 

Or are the posters of LS very unrepresentative of the American view on marriage, because here too I notice the same outlook on marriage and divorce as with my American friends?

Edited May 14, 2010 by jennie-jennie

[anne1707]

Anne, I have thought about this. I have close American friends so I notice a distinct difference in the outlook on marriage and divorce from what is prevalent in my country. I wonder if it could be that American couples try longer to work on their marriage but then have to give up anyway?

 

Or could it be as I mentioned earlier that certain groups in the US have very high divorce rates and that that thus slants the divorce rate for the entire population?

 

Or are the posters of LS very unrepresentative of the American view on marriage, because here too I notice the same outlook on marriage and divorce as with my American friends?

 

But how much of this is down to the fact that you befriend and socialise with those in your country who have similar views to you (as most people would) so therefore you may not be getting a truly representative view of the attitudes of ALL those in your country?

 

No dig at all here - I know I gel more with people who have a broadly similar outlook on life to me

[anne1707]

Or could it be as I mentioned earlier that certain groups in the US have very high divorce rates and that that thus slants the divorce rate for the entire population? What I am saying is that I believe the Americans are more heterogeneous in that some groups may have a low divorce rate and others a high, which could average the same divorce rate as a more homogeneous country.

 

Just coming back as you edited whilst I was posting

 

In some ways does this not in some ways agree with the point I was trying to make above. Within a country, there will be differing people with differing attitudes - maybe you associate with those who are more "relaxed" (for want of a better word) in their attitude to divorce

[jennie-jennie]

But how much of this is down to the fact that you befriend and socialise with those in your country who have similar views to you (as most people would) so therefore you may not be getting a truly representative view of the attitudes of ALL those in your country?

 

No dig at all here - I know I gel more with people who have a broadly similar outlook on life to me

 

I actually live in a city which is known to have a population of wealthier and higher class people than I. The condominium where I live is mostly populated by people older than I. I watch television and movies made here, I read the newspapers, I hear my children talk about the parents of their classmates. I have lived here for 50 years, Anne, I should have a pretty good perspective of the outlook on marriage and divorce in my country.

 

Of course I can not say that I know the attitude of ALL the people in my country, no one can of course, but you get a sense of the general most prevalent attitude when you live in a country for half a century.

Edited May 14, 2010 by jennie-jennie