Wednesday's IC session and other stuff....

[2sunny]

when HE owns the feelings and needs he has - it will be more attractive to "have" him. he doesn't yet recognize what those feelings yet are... he was trained to stifle the feelings - he may be doing the best he can to reveal those feelings to himself - but his prior training tells him he needs to suppress in order to survive the pain it may cause him to run from.

 

his operating method has worked for him for a lot of years. to expect that to change over night isn't a reality. be patient... he may be doing the best he can given the circumstances.

 

IF he can own the feelings as his own - that is the first step to progress...

 

instead of - "the counselor says....." it would be progress if he said "I FEEL THAT I NEDD ________ IN OUR MARRIAGE SAMANTHA" but he can't - he is a scared and scarred little boy that doesn't yet know how he feels and doesn't know how to own them.

 

he is on Bambi legs... a beginner. a scarred beginner. he may stay stuck for a long time or he may try to break out of his old habits that worked to protect him from his pain for a long time. this is only up to HIM. it's hard work. he first needs to own it as HIS... not as if it's instruction from his counselor. and IF the counselor has instructions for YOU - he should ask the counselor to call you directly! his passive aggressive way of trying to get what he wants is totally a wimpy and unattractive approach.

 

he should be willing to say what he means (wants) and mean what he says.

 

YOU should be doing the same with him.

 

 

ps - if it were me - i think i'd be willing to write a list for my husband... after 28 years i think i'd know what i'd want on the list... it would start with:

 

1). an emotionally available and vulnerable man who states clearly what he wants and considers my feelings in the equation as much as his own.

 

2). no empty feelings from my spouse and no empty actions. participate emotionally and physically with your own truth and consideration of what i say my truth is in the relationship.

 

THAT is a good place to start.

[bittersweet memories]

I met with my counselor on Wednesday. I really feel like there's not much progress being made, so perhaps marriage counseling would be the answer. My counselor has suggested we head to marriage counseling.

 

In any event, I told my counselor about my husband's counselor again. He has sent home another "homework" assignment. Apparently, they've been discussing "The Five Love Languages." My husband's primary love language is physical -- and his counselor said most men have this as their primary love language. The counselor's first assignment for me was to take the quiz -- which I did. My primary love language is "Quality Time" according to the quiz, and my secondary love language is "Positive Affirmation." Apparently, most women come up with "Quality Time" as their primary love language. I will head out today to buy the book and read it. It's a much safer purchase than "When Good People Have Affairs."

 

I asked my own counselor about the book and he said although many times he doesn't care for those types of books, he thought this particular book is a good resource and it makes some valid points.

 

Well, that was all fine and good. However, after my counseling session and when my husband and I were on a walk yesterday he threw out another "assignment" his counselor suggested. We were just walking along and I'm always amazed at how awkward my husband seems when bringing stuff up to me. I'm really not that unapproachable -- in fact, most people say I'm very approachable -- including my husband. So, he spits out with apparently much awkwardness, "My counselor had another assignment for you!" I thought, "Oh boy" but asked, "What is it?"

 

My husband said since his primary love language is physical and he wants to have a physical relationship with me again, his counselor thinks I should make a list detailing what my husband has to do in order for us to have a sexual relationship again.

 

I am not making this list. I told my husband I didn't have a list of things he could specifically do in order for us to have sex again. My preference would have been for my husband to have had asked me way before now what is going on and us discussing it like two adults who have been married almost 28 years. There should be a level of intimacy developed in a long term relationship -- not a sense of total awkwardness.

 

It's not like I've been turning my husband down for sex repeatedly. He has not approached me for sex. I have not approached him. I did say to my husband I find it bizarre if he wants to have sex with me why he waited this long to bring it up. I don't understand why communicating is that damn difficult for us. And yes, I'm including myself in the lack of communication problem. I never understood why he didn't insist on talking about why I had moved out to an apartment.

 

Anyway, I'm sure what my husband is saying to me is "Honey, I want to have sex in our marriage." I would have preferred for him to have said, "Honey, I want to have sex in our marriage" or "Honey, I will not be in a sexless marriage", etc. I don't understand why he has to say, "My counselor said" and instead why he doesn't just SAY what's on his mind?

 

I feel cold even having these thoughts, but I do. It feels like I'm being pressured by my husband and his counselor as opposed to my husband and me just having a frank conversation about what is going on.

 

It all feels particularly unromantic also. I'm not sure what the answer is at this point. Do we just jump in bed and have sex? It will just be me having sex again without feeling physically attracted to him.

 

I believe I've mentioned this before also, but I think my husband has a premature ejaculation problem also -- has for years -- and that certainly didn't help the situation any. It would be nice if penetration could last longer than eight seconds. How does one approach that in a sensitive manner?

 

I did tell my husband I thought I had built up a lot of resentments over time with him telling me what I "could" and "could not" do like I was a child. I also told him I fully understand he can't go back and change the past. I explained I thought the lack of sexual desire on my part had something to do with that parent/child dynamic that had been created in our marriage.

 

I know I don't feel sexual towards my husband right now, although I do love him very much and think he's a wonderful person. What's totally bizarre about all of this is we go around and do things together lately -- and it's like we're getting along fine when we do stuff. It's not a hostile environment or anything. We're both amicable towards one another.

 

I'm simply asking for opinions here -- do any of you think marriage counseling can help with resolving this issue? I'm not particularly thrilled at the thought of announcing a total lack of sexual attraction to my spouse in counseling. My IC says I am going to have to say how I feel for us to move forward and he thinks doing this in a marriage counseling environment would probably be for the best.

 

To be honest, I'm tired of dealing with all of this in general. I think I feel totally burned out. Not asking for sympathy -- and I'm sure I won't get it -- I'm just expressing how I feel.

 

 

Why are you even married to this poor man? Do him a favor and divorce him!

[xxoo]

when HE owns the feelings and needs he has - it will be more attractive to "have" him.

 

But she has never been sexually attracted to him. Not since their honeymoon, when they consumated the relationship, anyway.

 

28 years of sex with a woman who is not attracted to him, minus recent years with no sex at all.

 

Unfixable. Be honest with him and let him experience great sex with someone else. It is truly the compassionate thing to do.

[2sunny]

But she has never been sexually attracted to him. Not since their honeymoon, when they consumated the relationship, anyway.

 

28 years of sex with a woman who is not attracted to him, minus recent years with no sex at all.

 

Unfixable. Be honest with him and let him experience great sex with someone else. It is truly the compassionate thing to do.

 

if he has NEVER owned his feelings - how would she know IF she could be attracted to him? she may be - when he OWNS and EXPRESSES what and how he feels.

[FryFish]

Why is she a bad wife just because she doesn't want to have sex with her husband?

Change "doesnt want" to "never wants" and throw in an affair and the question answers itself.

[bittersweet memories]

if he has NEVER owned his feelings - how would she know IF she could be attracted to him? she may be - when he OWNS and EXPRESSES what and how he feels.

 

 

This is not about him its about her. She seems like the one that has real issues here. This marriage is over!!

[Woggle]

if he has NEVER owned his feelings - how would she know IF she could be attracted to him? she may be - when he OWNS and EXPRESSES what and how he feels.

 

If he did it probably make no difference. This is a woman who is done and is just dragging him along.

[bittersweet memories]

if he has NEVER owned his feelings - how would she know IF she could be attracted to him? she may be - when he OWNS and EXPRESSES what and how he feels.

 

 

Go back and re-read her past post...even her present ones say it all.

[xxoo]

if he has NEVER owned his feelings - how would she know IF she could be attracted to him? she may be - when he OWNS and EXPRESSES what and how he feels.

 

It seems she was attracted to him when they were dating, but not after they consumated the relationship--which, unfortunately, was after marriage. They were sexually incompatible from the start, and it is not going to change.

[bittersweet memories]

Why are you blaming the situation on the wife?

 

Can't the husband file for divorce if he's not satisfied with their [non] sex life?

 

If he's willing to tolerate a non-sexual relationship with his wife, then why is she dragging him along?

 

 

If he knew about the affair Im sure he would.

[xxoo]

But what I can't figure out is 1) Why the husband wants to stay married if his wife had an affair and won't have sex with him anymore;

 

I don't think he knows about the affair.

[FryFish]

Ha ha, very judgmental today are we Mr. Fry Fish?

When the truth isnt pretty, pointing it out will inevitably illicit a "wow... thats judgmental" response from some. But enumerating the truth is hardly judgmental.

 

As such, a much more acute knock at my post would be "Thanks captain Obvious"...

[bananalaffytaffy]

Well, it's nice that perfect strangers have samantha's life and marriage all figured out for her.

[Samantha0905]

I've been really busy. I'll try to catch up a bit here. Sorry and thanks for all the responses!

 

Sam, you've posted in other threads that you haven't felt sexually attracted to your H since your honeymoon--basically since the beginning of your sexual relationship. How could the two of you ever communicate without talking about this HUGE elephant in the room? You have to tell him. You should have told him years and years ago, but I'm guessing maybe you didn't know what you were missing in the early years.

 

True, in fact I thought something was wrong with me -- like I just didn't like sex or something. That did not turn out to be the case.

 

You are wasting years with each other. He may STILL not know what he is missing! Be honest with him, as gently as possible...cut the poor man free....and let him find love and passion before it is too late. You've never been sexually attracted to him (since having sex with him), you never will be, and you are wasting his life if you don't let him know the truth.

 

I don't think "cutting him free" is the route I'm going here. Perhaps we won't be able to work out our issues, but I sure want to try after being together for 33 years (total) and raising two very lovely children.

 

Yep. It's time for marriage counseling. I can't see any of this progressing without it.

 

Thanks jthorne! I think it may end up being the right thing to do also.

 

Here is your list - This would make a good start for opening up the dialogue with him, when you're ready to do so:

 

 

 

I would say both marriage and sex counseling would help. It's very clinical if you choose the right person and it helped my H and I a lot with very similar feelings. I had this convo with him. It was exptremely painful for both of us but we've made it through and are seriously improveing.

 

Good luck!

 

Thank you so much! I needed help -- obviously -- with my list.

 

I feel like everything went great sexually with my XAP. I guess that's why I've felt I don't need a sex therapist, but perhaps you are correct and one could help my husband and I learn more how to please each other -- although honestly I'm not sure if that is the problem.

 

 

Sam, I usually support you, but in this case, I can't. You've stated in past posts, that you haven't been "turned on ', by your H since very early in your marriage. Did you EVER tell him this? So now you are frustrated that he can't "magically", become an object of your desire? Isn't that asking a bit much? You say that you want intimacy, but the most important intimate issue is that he does not arouse you to passion, and you have never told him so, after 20-some years of marriage. So you want to make your marriage work, but, in truth, you probably should never married at all. You can't make something out of nothing. Why not either have an open marriage or just bite the bullet, and divorce, and be friends, which is really what you two are now?

 

I don't want him magically to become an object of desire to me Joe, but I do wonder if perhaps the parent/child relationship dynamic didn't hinder the sexual part of our relationship.

 

It may end up being that we divorce -- there will be no open marriage (personal preference), but for right now we're trying.

 

Sam, think about this for a minute.

 

Most men are actually very sensitive (read, insecure) about their 'performance' in this area. They do feel this as a facet of the love in their relationships...and when it's not going well in this area, it's very, very difficult for men to address it.

 

I garauntee that he can sense that you don't want him 'that way'. But he feels as tho he "needs" you that way at the sametime.

 

He's conflicted.

 

And he's got NO IDEA on how to approach you with this. How do you approach someone and ask them for something that you can sense that they don't want to do in the first place?

 

How do you initiate in this kind of situation? You've changed...he doesn't even know where to start anymore. And sensing that you're not into it just massively feeds into his insecurity...creating a deadly feedback loop. When he's insecure, he has performance issues. When he doesn't know how to start, he has performance issues. And when he has performance issues...it feeds BACK into that whole situation and makes those performance issues even WORSE.

 

The ONLY way to fix this would be for you to show him that you want him...and you don't.

 

What, SPECIFICALLY, can he do to fix this situation?

 

I don't think I've caused his performance issues, but I do agree with you it's a viscous cycle in some way.

 

JAST, that was great! You have learned a lot about communicating with your SO in MC!

 

But Sam, I understand what you are saying too. I too, harbored some resentment in MC along the lines of "Why can't you just communicate it to me? Why do we need a stranger to arbitrate?"

 

But we do, and we did, and we are doing it again.

 

Given a chance, it starts to work.

 

Thanks Spark!

 

Well, I did admit to MH that I was not sexually attracted to him and that I wasn't sure I ever was, so I know how bad that SUCKS for both of you. He felt totally deflated, however we have not stopped having sex and in fact he stepping out of his comfort zone trying new "things". Some of this started before MC and before my "confession" but started b/c he felt me pulling away and he wanted to fight for me.

 

I will be honest...I'm not sure it's changing how I feel about him. It does still feel awkward and somewhat forced, but it is enjoyable. I know that seems weird and it is hard to explain. I guess I appreciate his trying and physically the act is better but I still miss the emotional intimacy.

 

Our MC recommended the book The Ten Minute Sexual Solution but we just got it and he is out of town so we haven't started reading it. I wish I could tell you that MC would help you but I still have days of doubt myself. I am fighting for my kids and to keep my family intact, and feel like if I can make it better then I will do everything to try.

 

It is VERY hard when you have a decent, hard working, caring man who loves you but it still doesn't seem like enough...sigh.

 

Thanks for sharing your experiences Luv2dance. It is difficult and I'm sorry for what you are going through. Thanks for the book recommendation also. When you finish it, please let me know what you think.

 

YES...MH has said as much to me! When the man is the lower libido(less adventurous) spouse and has been told they aren't doing it for the higher libido spouse it is a very sticky situation.

 

Well, perhaps I shouldn't even tell him. Yikes!

 

I agree that it can improve...my wife and I have dealt with similar issues during our marriage as well.

 

But I would say that it's probably well worth recognizing that he's TRYING to address the issue...awkwardly agreed, and apparently not in the manner that Samantha would prefer...but the fact that he's even trying to do so is pretty darned huge.

 

Yes, I absolutely agree -- it is huge he is trying and I love him for trying.

 

And he's trying to fix things without even knowing what the heck has gone on in his marriage...he's trying to do so while blindfolded and handicapped without knowing that he's being compared to OM. He doesn't know about the affair, so any effort he makes to change things is going to be done without that knowledge.

 

He does know about the affair.

 

Right now...he IS still competing with OM...even if its just her memories of OM...and he doesn't even know it.

 

But regardless, Sam...how can he fix this situation?

 

What, SPECIFIC STEPS, does he need to be taking to help you regain your 'interest' in him and get you to want to meet his 'need' here?

 

It is difficult to want unsatisfactory sex when I had such great sexual chemistry with my XAP. And yes, I know I'm completely to blame for the comparison being there in my mind.

 

I don't know what specific steps he could take to tell you the truth. I wish I did. It's really about steps I will have to take I suppose. I do think the premature ejaculation problem needs to be addressed. I guess that's what it is. I know it's not sexually satisfying to have intercourse and for it to be over by the time I could to 10 in my head.

 

It is true as one of the posters has pointed out - that the lack of sexual attraction that you feel for your husband, has seemed to become a huge elephant.. and it all comes down to that.

 

And, I am with you in that I have no idea how other people in your lives (the church counselor and a potential MC) dissecting the love-making part is going to make the two of you any less inhibited in your relationship.

 

Maybe the two of you need a Trip ...............a Good (startover) Trip ... ha (happyface) ..

 

Thanks cali! We're actually thinking of taking a trip for a couple of weeks in June.

[Samantha0905]

There's not really a "sexual problem," she just doesn't want to have sex with her husband. I guess she doesn't really have to. I mean how can he "make" her have sex with him if she simply doesn't want to? It's just another sexless marriage in which both of the partners apparently think staying together in a sexless marriage is better than getting divorced. I don't think that would be too much fun but there is no rule that says people have to keep having sex with each other just because they're married to each. I agree that it sucks if you want to have sex and your partner doesn't, but in that case that's just sexual incompatability and the parties should just get divorced, or stop all the complaining.

 

Or try to work on things.......

 

The whole issue of "what things does the husband have to do to get his wife to have sex" is a completely false issue anyway. There's nothing he can do to make her want to have sex with him if she's never really liked him in a sexual way. She has to make a decision to either have sex or not have sex and she's apparently content in a sexless marriage. If she wasn't content, she would either start having sex or get a divorce. She's made a conscious decision to have a sexless marriage and apparently her husband for some reason doesn't have the cojones to simply throw her down on the bed and "do her" good and hard. A la Rhett Butler in GWTW.

 

Ummmm, because if he tried to throw me down on the bed and "do me" good and hard -- against my will -- that's called rape buddy. Now, if you mean some nice and exciting sex that I'm willingly a participant -- that could be very nice.

 

I mean the whole notion of the husband's counselor telling her to write a list of things for the husband to do so his wife will have sex with him is ridiculous. That counselor sounds completely incompetent.

 

He seems to like his counselor......

 

What the poster's husband needs to wake up to is that the only way he's going to have sex with this particular woman is to take it from her. If she doesn't want to have sex with him she won't. She can get up and walk out of the bedroom. But he at least has to try to get her to have sex with him, not by making a shopping list, but by actually physically trying to have sex with her.

 

It actually kind of sounds like the husband is sexually naiive, or afraid she'll bite his head off like a praying mantis or black widow spider or something. I mean seriously who actually asks their wife to give him a list of stuff he needs to do as a prerequisite to get to have sex with her? Only a completely beaten down doormat would do that. Any normal person would just say "Hey let's get it on."

 

LOL -- doormat runs a very large company with approximately 400 employees and is well liked in the community. He's charitable to others and has a great heart. He will also gladly take anyone's head off who in any way tries to harm his family. I don't think many people would describe him as a doormat.

 

uh.. huh ..

 

You say what counselor is going to send him home with a list.. I say what counselor is going to tell him to throw her down on the bed and "do her" ... you've been watching too many soap operas .. ha

 

ha,ha -- indeed -- although sometimes soap operas do provide a lot of humor value.

 

Her husband's counselor is obviously taking a non comunicative man who acts like he wants to have sex with his wife, and sending him home from school to ask Samantha: why can't he have sex with her .. ha - while at the same time, putting her in a corner ..

 

Yes -- it did make me feel pressured and a bit awkward, but I suppose the subject needed to be broached.

 

Now all of the counselors and all of the kings men and Samantha and her husband have to try to figure out why Samantha isn't attracted to her husband - after she discloses this ..

 

Goodness. I don't even know if I should disclose to him I'm not sexually attracted to him. I'm not quite sure how to approach this problem.

 

Hey, so if he takes it, she resents him more and feels like he raped her. Then what?

 

My advice she's the one who had the affair and is still in the affair mindset.

 

She cant reclaim the feelings of love and attraction, she also claim she hasnt felt that way since her wedding night? WTf I would have got a divorce and been on my merry way screwing everything in sight that wasnt tied down!!!

 

Bottom line this man probably truly does love her, because samantha doesnt get it!!!!

 

Or he just doesnt understand how detached his wife is...

 

She's not even trying!!! She hasnt even tried to make love to him, not one speck!

 

He does truly love me and I truly love him.

 

No, I haven't approached him sexually. We've hugged and give peck type kisses, but nothing sexual has occurred since I returned from the apartment. To be honest, it all feels quite a bit awkward at the moment.

 

Has sam ever told her husband hey let's just screw and see what happens?

Does she think of someone else? I mean sam, let's face facts your husband's a great man, but maybe your such a damn sucky wife! I mean you claim you havent felt feelings for him in years than why are you wasting his time? Why the affair? Why are you holding him back from being with some great woman who can reciprocate his love. All you have done is take, take , take.

 

...What have you EVER given back?

 

Just enlighten us. please.

 

Well, Chrome -- we've been married 27 years -- I've give back for goodness sake. It's not like we've been sexless all this time and no I haven't rejected my husband throughout our marriage when he approaches me for sex. I've had feelings for him in that I love him very much. I said I haven't felt sexually attracted to him.

 

Why the affair? Because I made a very bad choice and decided to have sex with someone else. My counselor says if I have felt a lack of sexual intimacy throughout my marriage then he was sure I felt starved for it. So, I guess I was weak. Not that I should even throw this out there -- but I think people do feel more vulnerable at certain times in their lives. My son was leaving to go to college in a state far away, my daughter was getting married and we were renovating a home -- all at the same time. I suppose becoming an empty nester took a toll on me, along with the other stressors -- along with feeling sexually dissatisfied for a long time -- and I responded to my XAP's flirations. It all went downhill from there.

 

Samantha thinks her husband should make the first move, or at Least discuss it with her ..

 

Yes, I have been very frustrated that he did not get angry when I moved out, never asked me why, and did not try to discuss the subject for quite a while after I moved back home. I had to bring it up. And he has not approached me for sex or mentioned it until on our walk the other day.

 

...Why should he even try, she's just gonna reject him again. I mean what she's been rejecting him for YEARS! lol. sad but that's what she's doing.

 

I have not been rejecting him sexually. We've been friends. We do things together -- go to sporting events, golf, have a date night each week, etc. We also did a whole lot of things with our children as we raised them.

 

----------------

 

But, when I think about it, I don't know that she has been rejecting him.. I forgot why they didn't have sex after she moved back from the apartment ..

 

Nope -- I have not. And he hasn't approached me for sex since I moved back and I have not approached him for sex since I moved back.

 

Ha ha, no, I didn't actually mean the husband's counselor should advise him to rape her, LOL. I'm sorry if that's the way it seemed.

 

I was trying to make point that on a pretty basic level, sexuality between two people is a "non verbal" interaction.

 

Her husband's not going to increase her sexual desire (if that's even possible, and if she really doesn't like him that way, I don't think it is possible) by talk, talk, talk, words, words, words, assignments, assignments, assignments.

 

I think perhaps developing better communication patters could lead to feeling more intimate towards a person.

 

Two people either "click" or they don't. If the "spark" isn't there in the first place, then it isn't. Here, it doesn't seem there's any "spark." Never was a spark.

 

And it doesn't matter WHY she's not attracted to her husband, who really cares? All that matters is that she isn't. There's no spark between them.

 

Why belabor that point?

 

You mean as in chemistry? I don't know whether chemistry can be created or not.

 

I thought that too but as it turns out' date=' with the "talk, talk, talk" and understanding each others wants, needs you can have a very fullfilling sex life because at the base of it is a love between two individuals that has been there for many years.[/quote']

 

This is what I'm hoping is the case.

 

No I think this is incorrect. He's got to be more assertive in a non-verbal way--you know the way it works in normal healthy relationships? Someone has to "initiate." He's afraid to "initiate."

 

Now, if he was more assertive about initiating then she would be put to the actual choice of going along with it or rejecting it. But "begging for it" never works. Maybe he has been trying to physically initiate and she's been rejecting him? If so, he's a doormat. Or, in actuality, maybe he thinks a sexless marriage is a tolerable state of affairs just like she does.

 

No he has not initiated. Again, not a doormat either.

 

 

It's very simple really. In today's world either person can initiate a divorce without little if any cause needed. (Lack of sex is probably a good reason in most states.)

 

I think we obviously don't want to file for divorce.

 

This whole thing sounds like "paralysis by analysis." It really sounds like neither she nor her husband actually "want" to have sex with the other. He may SAY he does, but he's not ACTING as if he really wants to have sex with her. It doesn't sound like they ever hug, kiss, you know stuff that would get things warmed up possibly. Does not sound like there's any real affection between them much less actual sex.

 

We hug, but honestly since I've moved home it's been more of a friendship type hugging and kisses are just pecks. Nothing sexual really. We hold hands. We're sweet to one another, go to lunch together, etc. He sent me flowers for Mother's Day today. I've sent him flowers before.

 

 

 

Ha ha, she had an affair too? (Sorry I'm grunching) Well I'm sure that doesn't make things between them any easier, but, how is that even an issue? She simply doesn't have a sexual attraction to him. On the off chance it's a Rhett Butler/Scarlet O'Hara situation then being a little more aggressive and "manly" might work. Or maybe not, but what the heck it's worth a try.

 

Yes. Had an affair. Moved out for six months. Have since moved back in. Confessed the affair.

 

 

Exactly, if she doesn't want to have sex with him, why stay married to him? And vice versa.

 

I'm hoping if we can work through some of the issues, learn to communicate better, etc. we will develop more intimacy -- which could possibly lead to more sexual attraction. I don't know. Obviously.

 

 

 

I don't know what he gets or she gets. To me I'm not old enough where my idea of "love" allows for "no sex whatsoever with my partner." If my partner did not want to have sex with me I would have serious questions if she actually loved me anymore. If she didn't love me I can't imagine I would have very strong love feelings back towards her.

 

Thanks for sharing. I think my husband loves me very much -- but, obviously, does not want to have a sexless marriage. I don't either.

 

 

They're both in counseling and they're not having sex, not clear if he knows about the affair but even if not, he understands something is seriously wrong with the marriage.

 

Yep -- it's been a rough couple of years. We've had some wonderful things about our marriage also. I suppose that's how long term marriages are.

 

It's not her job to "try." She is the flower, he is the bee.

 

Interesting thought.

 

 

 

Ha ha maybe things would be a lot better if she was a "sucky" wife!

 

Why is she a bad wife just because she doesn't want to have sex with her husband? It doesn't mean she's "bad" it just means if they both want to be happier they should get divorced and find other people who they are sexually compatible with.

 

I don't think my husband thinks of me as "sucky" -- he tells me he loves me regularly and enjoys my company. I have a fantastic relationship with my children, so I'm not a "sucky" mom either.

 

 

 

It doesn't seem that any of the above stuff is too relevant. All that's relevant both she and her husband is whether or not they want to live in a sexless marriage. If they do, fine, they've got that already.

 

If they don't, there are only two choices: 1. Start having sex. 2. Get divorced.

 

There are no other choices. No amount of counseling, internet blogging, or introspection will change the obvious: If you don't have sex in your marriage, you will have a sexless marriage.

 

Hopefully working on things will help us to relate to one another better and understand each others needs.

 

Sex means different things to different people. For some, sex isn't about "getting off", it's about bonding with their partner. Perhaps samantha's husband is simply asking how to get closer to her. One way he does this is through making love.

 

What I'm saying is that Samantha needs to think about what the sex REALLY represents to her husband. He's asking for more than just sex.

 

I feel that way about sex also. It's very intimate and a way to express love/togetherness.

 

If he just takes it that is legally rape.

 

I still stand by my view that she should just divorce him and be fair in court. This marriage is dying a slow and painful and it is better to just put it out of it's misery.

 

Happy thoughts Woggle!

 

The humane thing would be to end it.

 

Or work on it.

 

-------------------

 

Yes.. And she has mentioned that they are doing more things together, and it has been pleasant.. which also seems to be a good step in the right direction ..

 

Things do feel somewhat better since we've been communicating more. I'm glad we've both been getting counseling. I think he's really benefiting a lot from it as far as becoming more communicative is concerned.

[Samantha0905]

Whew! Made it through pages one and two as far as responding is concerned.

 

Taking a break again now -- supper and a movie!

 

Thanks for all of your comments.

[fooled once]

So your H knows about the physical affair?

 

I think you are still so caught up in the other man that you won't really try to reconnect with your marriage. I think it is just a matter of time before you are trying to get in bed with the OM or some other man besides your H.

 

I agree very much with what Owl posted.

 

You don't seem to take any ownership in the demise of your marriage. You blame him, which isn't fair, IMHO. You own at least 50% and in addition, you chose to cheat on him instead of working on the issues. You took the easy way out, yet now you don't feel like doing any of the work to get the marriage back on track. I don't see you being honest with him - I don't see you saying "is it your counselor who wants to know this or you?" Or even "why aren't we having sex"? But you don't -- you want him to be this big communicator, but you aren't. How is that fair?

 

I truly believe as soon as you get the GREEN LIGHT from the OM, you will be back to obsessing about him, etc which is really sad considering he treated you like crap and you kept taking it. Yet your spouse is trying and you won't put 100% into the marriage you claim you want.

 

I also predict you and he will end of divorced, which will be good for him in many ways because maybe he can find someone who truly loves him -- and wants him -- and he can be happy.

[Samantha0905]

when HE owns the feelings and needs he has - it will be more attractive to "have" him. he doesn't yet recognize what those feelings yet are... he was trained to stifle the feelings - he may be doing the best he can to reveal those feelings to himself - but his prior training tells him he needs to suppress in order to survive the pain it may cause him to run from.

 

his operating method has worked for him for a lot of years. to expect that to change over night isn't a reality. be patient... he may be doing the best he can given the circumstances.

 

IF he can own the feelings as his own - that is the first step to progress...

 

instead of - "the counselor says....." it would be progress if he said "I FEEL THAT I NEDD ________ IN OUR MARRIAGE SAMANTHA" but he can't - he is a scared and scarred little boy that doesn't yet know how he feels and doesn't know how to own them.

 

he is on Bambi legs... a beginner. a scarred beginner. he may stay stuck for a long time or he may try to break out of his old habits that worked to protect him from his pain for a long time. this is only up to HIM. it's hard work. he first needs to own it as HIS... not as if it's instruction from his counselor. and IF the counselor has instructions for YOU - he should ask the counselor to call you directly! his passive aggressive way of trying to get what he wants is totally a wimpy and unattractive approach.

 

he should be willing to say what he means (wants) and mean what he says.

 

YOU should be doing the same with him.

 

 

ps - if it were me - i think i'd be willing to write a list for my husband... after 28 years i think i'd know what i'd want on the list... it would start with:

 

1). an emotionally available and vulnerable man who states clearly what he wants and considers my feelings in the equation as much as his own.

 

2). no empty feelings from my spouse and no empty actions. participate emotionally and physically with your own truth and consideration of what i say my truth is in the relationship.

 

THAT is a good place to start.

 

Thanks sunny. This was a very helpful post and I appreciate it.

 

Why are you even married to this poor man? Do him a favor and divorce him!

 

Well, because I am and have been for 27 years. There's a love here that is very deep. He's not a "poor" (as in someone to be looked at with pity) man and neither of us want a divorce.

 

This is not about him its about her. She seems like the one that has real issues here. This marriage is over!!

 

Nope. Still ticking after 27 years....... I do have my own set of issues though -- that is to be sure. We all do.

 

If he did it probably make no difference. This is a woman who is done and is just dragging him along.

 

Thank you Woggle.

 

Go back and re-read her past post...even her present ones say it all.

 

Hmmmm. Goodness. Wish I knew everything.

 

It seems she was attracted to him when they were dating, but not after they consummated the relationship--which, unfortunately, was after marriage. They were sexually incompatible from the start, and it is not going to change.

 

I have hope.

 

If he knew about the affair Im sure he would.

 

Jeesh! Doy! He does. I'm tired of announcing it. I'll start posting it in my thread titles.

 

I don't think he knows about the affair.

 

That's the ticket.

 

Well, it's nice that perfect strangers have samantha's life and marriage all figured out for her.

 

Right? I should have just come here from the get go and asked these people in particular.

 

 

 

Sorry for all the typos in my earlier post. I was rushing as I had something else to do. I've been busy a lot lately.

[Samantha0905]

So your H knows about the physical affair?

 

Yes.

 

I think you are still so caught up in the other man that you won't really try to reconnect with your marriage. I think it is just a matter of time before you are trying to get in bed with the OM or some other man besides your H.

I do miss my XAP. My counselor says I miss the way he made me feel.

 

I agree very much with what Owl posted.

Owl makes very intelligent and well thought out posts. I think Owl thought my spouse didn't know about the affair, however.

 

You don't seem to take any ownership in the demise of your marriage. You blame him, which isn't fair, IMHO. You own at least 50% and in addition, you chose to cheat on him instead of working on the issues. You took the easy way out, yet now you don't feel like doing any of the work to get the marriage back on track. I don't see you being honest with him - I don't see you saying "is it your counselor who wants to know this or you?" Or even "why aren't we having sex"? But you don't -- you want him to be this big communicator, but you aren't. How is that fair?

I'll accept 50%. He chose to ignore the issues also. He hid in different ways, but he hid also.

 

Of course I'm doing work. I'm going to counseling. He is. Baby steps.

 

It's not fair, in response to your final question -- but perhaps through the years I've grown tired of trying. I have tried. I tried a lot and I have built of resentments from trying. He may feel the same way. I'm feeling more energetic about trying lately. He's trying also. As I said, baby steps.

 

I truly believe as soon as you get the GREEN LIGHT from the OM, you will be back to obsessing about him, etc which is really sad considering he treated you like crap and you kept taking it. Yet your spouse is trying and you won't put 100% into the marriage you claim you want.

Ummm, that green light has been flashed several times. And I don't obsess about him. I think about him. He does me. We shared something intimate.

 

For what it's worth, XAP did not treat me like crap any more than I did him. We both treated each other nicely in some ways and very poorly in others. My regret is it was an affair which, obviously, presented many of the negative dynamics at the moment. Perhaps more would have shown up, but I can't predict the future. Other than that, I'm glad for what we shared. It isn't all negative. Period. I think in most cases it's unrealistic to think a person would deep down on the inside have 100% regret about everything involved in an intimate relationship.

 

I also predict you and he will end of divorced, which will be good for him in many ways because maybe he can find someone who truly loves him -- and wants him -- and he can be happy.

Well, I'll keep you updated. Thanks for your clairvoyant moment. Edited May 9, 2010 by Samantha0905

[BB07]

Samantha.......I'm sure I've missed this in prior posts, but when you told you h about the affair, was he angry or did he just stuff it down and pretend he wasn't? I wonder if you and he have talked about it much since, have you?

 

Is this a correct summary? The sex was never satisfactory yet both of you never communicated about it, also there are years of built up frustrations, resentments and anger that never rose to the surface.

 

I wonder if all that stuff were peeled away if you would feel attraction to him, do you think you could?

 

He seems like the kind of man who keeps such a tight control on his feelings that he doesn't express any emotion strongly or passionately, is that correct?

 

 

I know my questions are very personal and prying......, I apologize and you certainly don't have to answer.

[JustJoe]

Sam, I'm just afraid that you are letting your resentment about your H's past inability/unwillingness to communicate and share, blind you to the progress he is making NOW.

[Samantha0905]

Samantha.......I'm sure I've missed this in prior posts, but when you told you h about the affair, was he angry or did he just stuff it down and pretend he wasn't? I wonder if you and he have talked about it much since, have you?

 

He cried a whole lot -- really badly -- that night, told me how hurt he was, said I had broken his heart, etc. Since then, he has not been bringing it up. He's just been talking about how he wants us to stay married and wants us to be happy together forever. I found it a little odd how he never even quizzed me about who the person was, etc.

 

Is this a correct summary? The sex was never satisfactory yet both of you never communicated about it, also there are years of built up frustrations, resentments and anger that never rose to the surface.

I think so. He seemed to enjoy sex though, so he doesn't have those frustrations and anger -- although, obviously, he has some too from the one time I moved him out and the one time I moved out.

 

I wonder if all that stuff were peeled away if you would feel attraction to him, do you think you could?

I hope so.

 

He seems like the kind of man who keeps such a tight control on his feelings that he doesn't express any emotion strongly or passionately, is that correct?

He gets passionate about golf, business deals and football. I can tell he is really trying now, however, and I am also. It may not seem so -- because of the sexual issues -- but we are in most other areas.

 

 

I know my questions are very personal and prying......, I apologize and you certainly don't have to answer.

Oh -- no problem. Lord, I've kind of let it all hang out it all in my threads.

 

Sam, I'm just afraid that you are letting your resentment about your H's past inability/unwillingness to communicate and share, blind you to the progress he is making NOW.

 

I know he's trying. I'm really not blind to it all Joe. Hell, just staying with me after the affair is trying.

 

We had a nice weekend. Yesterday my daughter and husband showed up for Mother's Day -- we all went to lunch and to a river front park with my daughter's new puppy. My son called me also and told me Happy Mother's day and we had a nice long chat.

 

Last night, me and my husband even hugged a whole lot in bed before going to sleep. It was nice.

 

Honestly, the sexual part is difficult for me. I imagine for him too -- but again -- this is my journal and I don't know what he's feeling 100%.

 

The entire reason I was having issues is the lack of sexual attraction -- plus loneliness in general. I did have a strong sexual connection with my XAP and so there is that knowledge still there of how pleasurable that was. I know I will not have that with my husband. They're two different people and the experience is different. I feel like if we have sex and I still feel the same way -- which I imagine I will -- then I will just start having unsatisfactory sex again.

 

I suppose that isn't the end of the world. Maybe it really isn't a problem that can be fixed and sex will just be something not so great for me in my marriage. There are a lot of things in my marriage which are very nice. Perhaps they do outweigh the not so great sex. I mean my children's happiness, my husband's happiness, family togetherness, future grandchildren, etc. all supersede personal sexual satisfaction -- which is a more selfish interest.

 

Anyway, I know those last two paragraphs sound doom and gloom -- but I'm really starting to think sexual satisfaction pales in comparison to all the hurt which would be inflicted for me to skip off into the sunset sexually satisfied. Plus, I imagine sexual satisfaction isn't all that if other things in a relationship end up stinking -- which is what I fear would be the case if I ventured out looking for someone who really floats my boat sexually.

 

I simply don't feel like I can ignore the pain it would cause my husband and my children should I want a divorce. Plus, a lot of other people. So, the best thing to do is to be as happy as I can possibly be within my marriage. And I don't mean just having sex without being an active participant. I'm going to try my best to make it a better experience.

 

As for the communication/intimacy, I'll try my best to keep that going also. I'm starting to think what my sister has told me repeatedly is true though. People are who they are. I know someone in here told me some sort of fruit analogy -- -- you can't make an orange a banana or something like that. Perhaps it's very true.

Edited May 10, 2010 by Samantha0905

[Owl]

OK, the loneliness you know how to deal with...spend more quality time with the H.

 

On the other...tell him SPECIFICALLY what you'd like to change (duration/quality/emotional interaction) in that regard. And then give him the chance to try...AND...give him feedback (positive and negative, but remember that positive will get you more 'positive' results).

 

Make an honest, straight up effort towards improving that aspect of your marriage...WITH him. Teach him what works and what doesn't.

 

If you can't/won't...how can you honestly expect things to improve?

[Samantha0905]

OK, the loneliness you know how to deal with...spend more quality time with the H.

 

Yes, that plus staying active myself doing things -- plus, making sure I have a good group of friends.

 

On the other...tell him SPECIFICALLY what you'd like to change (duration/quality/emotional interaction) in that regard. And then give him the chance to try...AND...give him feedback (positive and negative, but remember that positive will get you more 'positive' results).

 

Yes, I can't imagine dissecting his perceived failures in the sexual realm would make him feel real great. I would never do that anyway.

 

Make an honest, straight up effort towards improving that aspect of your marriage...WITH him. Teach him what works and what doesn't.

 

If you can't/won't...how can you honestly expect things to improve?

 

I know. It's been a rough last couple of years, but I think we're both moving in the right direction now -- together.

 

Thanks Owl.

[WalkInThePark]

The entire reason I was having issues is the lack of sexual attraction -- plus loneliness in general. I did have a strong sexual connection with my XAP and so there is that knowledge still there of how pleasurable that was. I know I will not have that with my husband. They're two different people and the experience is different. I feel like if we have sex and I still feel the same way -- which I imagine I will -- then I will just start having unsatisfactory sex again.

 

I suppose that isn't the end of the world. Maybe it really isn't a problem that can be fixed and sex will just be something not so great for me in my marriage. There are a lot of things in my marriage which are very nice. Perhaps they do outweigh the not so great sex. I mean my children's happiness, my husband's happiness, family togetherness, future grandchildren, etc. all supersede personal sexual satisfaction -- which is a more selfish interest.

 

Anyway, I know those last two paragraphs sound doom and gloom -- but I'm really starting to think sexual satisfaction pales in comparison to all the hurt which would be inflicted for me to skip off into the sunset sexually satisfied. Plus, I imagine sexual satisfaction isn't all that if other things in a relationship end up stinking -- which is what I fear would be the case if I ventured out looking for someone who really floats my boat sexually.

 

Sigh. You are giving up, Samantha. Giving up on the dream of having a relationship in which you can have it all: on an emotional, intellectual and physical level. You are like so many people here: you complain, you consider leaving but in the end you can't do it. Things might be a bit better for a while, they will be a bit worse from time to time. But it is never going to be GREAT. I see it with my xMM. He is too afraid to leave the familiar things. The result will be that he will never know true relational bliss. His choice.

Sometimes I think a lot of people are afraid of happiness.

A very good book for me is "Twin Souls: Finding Your True Spiritual Partner". For me this book makes it very clear how one is supposed to feel in a relationship which is really good. The way you feel in your relationship, Samantha, is a far cry from that. In a great relationship, sexual attraction is present right from the start and still present after 28 years... You are 48, that's only a couple of years older than myself. I have the feeling that you now deliberately accept to bury yourself in your coffin while you have probably still another 40 years at least in front of you...