mem11363 Posted May 9, 2010 Posted May 9, 2010 Jennifer, You get the prize for solid, sensible thinking here. But I think the biggest mistake Mike could make is to trade a temporary boost to their sex life for another kid. Nope. What Mike needs is information because I am seeing a very ugly pattern here. One that I see ALL the time on LS. The pattern goes like this. Husband says: - Wife avoids sex with me in a very determined way. She clearly and consistently DOES NOT WANT TO HAVE SEX with me - But when we have sex - she has an orgasm every time/almost every time Thing is - for the sake of argument I am going to accept that the wives are not lying, and that they do indeed hit the O. But SOMETHING isn't right. Because it is painfully obvious that there is SOMETHING about sex that these women don't like. In fact - something they STRONGLY dislike because if they are having an O, the only reason they would avoid is if some other part of the experience is VERY negative to them. So it is up to Mike to get his wife to tell him what that is. Because I will give you the flip side of this. There are periods of time when my wife cannot come while we have sex. And bless her she doesn't lie to me about it. And yet somehow I have found a way to make the overall (the gestalt) of the experience - positive enough physically and emotionally - that she is still willing to connect with me frequently. And for us, I think that a lot of it is very open/honest communication about what feels good/bad for her in and out of bed. Sexual and non-sexual touch and talk and .... So guys - think about it. If she DOES come all the time - and still avoids it - your job is to find out what part of it is so negative for her that she is fighting to avoid an experience that ends in the rapture. No, I think that will just increase her sense of 'obligation'.... Now THIS, THIS could work: "So you want another baby? You are depressed and not taking care of them or ME properly, and you want me to hop on your bandwagon for another baby? Oh, and with enthusiasm when you don't even want to have SEX with me?. Do you want me to just put it in a cup and give it to you to have your doctor put it in your vagina with a turkey baster? I don't want to bring another child into this loveless marriage". THAT will get her attention.
Author mikeinaz Posted May 9, 2010 Author Posted May 9, 2010 jenifer1972, I've actually put it in terms like that. Goes right past her. No effect. But you're probably right, pushing the religion aspect will probably just make her feel more obligated and will make for some pretty unpassionate sex to say the least. And mem, I have point blank asked my wife after she's had a great O why on earth she ever hesitates to have sex, let alone turns it down if it leads to both of us having a really passionate and enjoyable time. She just says she doesn't know. Our MC actually said its simply a matter of habit. She's gotten used to begrudgingly having sex that when the request is simply made, she instantly reverts back to the same old pattern of annoyance, avoidance and dismissal. Essentially our MC told her she needs to retrain herself to remember the end result of lovemaking so it won't seem like a chore, but something she remembers she actually enjoys. By the way, the day I have to be REMINDED that I like sex, please someone put me out of my misery.....
giotto Posted May 9, 2010 Posted May 9, 2010 re: wife having O but avoiding sex. My wife says she's come to associate sex with a negative thing. Why? Because when she wasn't having sex that often with me - because of her own issues, which, unfortunately, she never explained to me - I put pressure on her and got angry when she refused. This became a pattern over the years. Obviously, I am to blame for putting pressure on her, but she always refused to discuss her issues, sweeping everything under the carpet, expecting me to read her mind. So, over the years, I became the villain when, in reality, we were all victims of her past. In the last few months she finally conceded that her issues have ruined our relationship and she will be seeking therapy. Unfortunately, she will never be in therapy, because she can't face her past, so she is giving me sex instead... Am I happy about this? No. The fact she is refusing to sort her issues out means that she is not really taking me, or our relationship, seriously. That's why I will be leaving her in the near future... I have tried my best, but I can't help her if she doesn't want to help herself... I wonder if you, Mike, have maybe developed a similar pattern, for whatever reason...
mem11363 Posted May 9, 2010 Posted May 9, 2010 Mike, "I don't know" is code for "I am afraid to tell you" trust me - she absolutely knows WHY she is rejecting you and creating all this tension in your marriage. As for the "just get it over with" - stop the presses. NEVER EVER EVER agree to "just get it over with" sex. That is a train wreck in progress. Every once in a while W offers me a quickie because she can tell I am hot and we are time constrained. I have maybe said yes to 10 quickies total during our 20 year marriage. I almost always say "tonight - we will have time for both of us to have fun" I have no idea if your wife wants you to be more dominant/rough - or more gentle and slow. Or something else entirely. I will tell you that I have asked W over the years what she likes the most/dislikes the most and have gotten a series of very honest and helpful answers. And sometimes her preferences change. I NEVER say, but last year you said you DID like being spanked. Thing is whatever she says she wants at the moment - is what she wants at the moment. At worst I might ask - am I doing something clumsy/not right that is causing you to lose your preference for X? But that is asked in a sincere and almost pre-apologetic way so she absolutely knows that I am focused on making this fun for her. Hurry up and get this over with is code for "we have a serious problem" jenifer1972, I've actually put it in terms like that. Goes right past her. No effect. But you're probably right, pushing the religion aspect will probably just make her feel more obligated and will make for some pretty unpassionate sex to say the least. And mem, I have point blank asked my wife after she's had a great O why on earth she ever hesitates to have sex, let alone turns it down if it leads to both of us having a really passionate and enjoyable time. She just says she doesn't know. Our MC actually said its simply a matter of habit. She's gotten used to begrudgingly having sex that when the request is simply made, she instantly reverts back to the same old pattern of annoyance, avoidance and dismissal. Essentially our MC told her she needs to retrain herself to remember the end result of lovemaking so it won't seem like a chore, but something she remembers she actually enjoys. By the way, the day I have to be REMINDED that I like sex, please someone put me out of my misery.....
jenifer1972 Posted May 9, 2010 Posted May 9, 2010 jenifer1972, I've actually put it in terms like that. Goes right past her. No effect. But you're probably right, pushing the religion aspect will probably just make her feel more obligated and will make for some pretty unpassionate sex to say the least. And mem, I have point blank asked my wife after she's had a great O why on earth she ever hesitates to have sex, let alone turns it down if it leads to both of us having a really passionate and enjoyable time. She just says she doesn't know. Our MC actually said its simply a matter of habit. She's gotten used to begrudgingly having sex that when the request is simply made, she instantly reverts back to the same old pattern of annoyance, avoidance and dismissal. Essentially our MC told her she needs to retrain herself to remember the end result of lovemaking so it won't seem like a chore, but something she remembers she actually enjoys. By the way, the day I have to be REMINDED that I like sex, please someone put me out of my misery..... I think the fact that she knows you would NEVER leave her because of religious reasons has her taking you for granted. Why would you never leave? Your parents divorced, so it's not like the stigma is new to your family. I also stayed in a bad marriage way too long because of not wanting to bring shame on my family and because both our families are so religious. When I finally threw in the towel, my ex said, "I NEVER thought you would play the divorce card!" And I said, "therein lies the problem - you thought you could be as nasty as you wanted to be and I would never leave." I think she must have unexpressed resentments that she has not told you about that is making her close herself off to you. The sex is metaphorical for what is happening emotionally between the two of you, and women are not as good at separating the two, and often aren't capable of enjoying sex when they are peeved.
tnttim Posted May 10, 2010 Posted May 10, 2010 Look at Giotto's post about when he left his wife she gave in and gave him sex. Then after a short time it went away again. So what is your plan after she starts having sex with you, knowing the window might be brief? I think you can turn it into an ongoing thing, and finally make her want sex from you. It's all in how you play your cards while you are living downstairs. The rest of my technique that worked with wife was to appeal to her emotional needs. Emotions are a chemical reaction, and you can get addicted to a chemical reaction, so if you produce good feelings in your wife, she will literally get addicted to you. When she's addicted to the feelings you give her, she will crave sex from you, it's a natural process. You have to pay attention when she talks, and when she reacts to certain situations. She will in so many words tell you what she needs, you just have to filter through the BS. When you figure out whats causing her pain, then you help relieve her from that pain, painkillers are very addictive right? You will also figure out what makes her proud and you can help her feel proud when she feels down, stimulants are addictive , right? You can find out what causes her stress, and relieve her stress, depressants are addictive, correct? Are you starting to see the big picture here. Drugs don't get us high, they cause a chemical reaction that gets us high, like gambling is addictive but there are no drugs involved. If you become her drug of choice she will go out of her way to get you because she is addicted to the feelings you give her. That is when you can cut her off and get her to turn up the heat. That is when she will come to you, no more begging, no more guilting, no more hidden guises to get her to have sex. She will want to cuddle with you more, she will be more open to you, and you will get to see deeper inside her. If you continue to pay attention the sky is the limit, it's really up to you. You can change into the man she dreampt about when she was a little girl, her prince. That's what she really wants, and that is what no women can explain to a man because we just don't get it. I was in bed reading and my wife had Titanic on, it was the scene where she was going to jump off the boat because she felt trapped in life. Then voila Jack steps into her life and saves her life literally. Then throughout the next 10 minutes he shows her how exciting her life can be, he shows how exciting his life is, he praises her, and has compassion for her lives struggles. He was her physical and mental savior at that point. He was her way out of the monotany of her usual life. They got chased and he became a man she shouldn't have sex with in a lot of people's eyes, especially hers. The next scene shows the controlling BF telling her what she needs to do, how she needs to live her life, and the consequences of not abiding his rules. He gives a priceless diamond thinking that's what women really want, it really just objectifies her. When Jack painted her he treated her as a woman, the fact she was naked had no sexual response from him, he was professional. I would watch that particular part of the movie again if I were you. It gives so much perspective on what a woman is looking for it should be illegal. Leonardo Dicaprio's looks have very little to do what eventually ended up happening in that car. She was addicted at that point and did whatever it took to get him. Despite her outward feelings the inner feelings won the battle, like they always eventually do. It's like when a drug addict knows he needs to quit, that's the outward feeling, the release of tension he gets from the drug is the inward feeling, and it almost always wins.
mem11363 Posted May 10, 2010 Posted May 10, 2010 Jen, First I agree that the "I will never leave you over X" is the worst thing to say to a spouse who is behaving in a way that is highly upsetting to you. Doesn't matter if that behavior is verbal abuse, or sexual starvation. It is a very very bad message. Second, the whole bit about unexpressed resentments etc. may be true. Or it could be as simple as him crowding her. Maybe he says "I love you" too often, or hugs her more than she wants or follows her around the house when they are home. Maybe he talks to her when she wants silence or ignores her when she talks to him. Thing is - ONLY one person in the universe knows the answer. SHE does. So - the goal of moving out of the bedroom shouldn't be more sex - it should be his wife telling teaching him to understand their sexual dynamic. But I also acknowledge that this is difficult in the sense that it will be easier for her to just critique him than it will be to give him an honest answer. It is safe and easy to say "I am angry you aren't doing more housework." And while it may be true that she feels that way, often it is ALSO true that it has NOTHING to do with their sexual issues. Meaning he needs to dig into what he hears. "Are you saying that if I do x, y, z each week that you will resume normal sex with me - a couple/three times a week?" Because usually the answer will be "it isn't that simple" And usually that means - I want you to do more housework because it will make my life easier. And since you are asking me for something important to you I am going to start listing the stuff I want even though the two are not correlated. This can create even more tension - the husband takes on an every increasing and frankly way more than half - total workload and in return - gets - nothing. And hey - if it turns out it really is just housework - great. But usually people say so when it is that simple. The wives in that situation have a simple solution - they explain that if H doesn't do his share, by the time she gets in bed she is too tired. Very simple, logical and fair conversation. Typically those couples don't end up on here. I need you to do more housework is simple and easy and not scary. I need you to be MORE aggressive in bed, but not more aggressive outside the bedroom - THAT is a scary conversation. What does more aggressive mean. Or - I need more pre-foreplay. Or I need more foreplay. Or I need you to last longer when we have intercourse. Or ...., ..... These are all scary things to say to a partner. So the HD spouse needs to open with a lot of love and a message of - I will accept whatever you tell me as long as it is true, I NEED you to be straight with me though. I think the fact that she knows you would NEVER leave her because of religious reasons has her taking you for granted. Why would you never leave? Your parents divorced, so it's not like the stigma is new to your family. I also stayed in a bad marriage way too long because of not wanting to bring shame on my family and because both our families are so religious. When I finally threw in the towel, my ex said, "I NEVER thought you would play the divorce card!" And I said, "therein lies the problem - you thought you could be as nasty as you wanted to be and I would never leave." I think she must have unexpressed resentments that she has not told you about that is making her close herself off to you. The sex is metaphorical for what is happening emotionally between the two of you, and women are not as good at separating the two, and often aren't capable of enjoying sex when they are peeved.
Author mikeinaz Posted May 11, 2010 Author Posted May 11, 2010 Very sound advice from all, thank you! This is a bit of an update--I think my timing for the move downstairs was poor. Separating during Mother's Day weekend made me look and feel like an ass. She was obviously upset. And I know I should be strong because this is about the long term, not just the immediate situation. But I decided to move back upstairs on one condition. The first person to replay to this thread, SoulMate, had suggested reading "The Sex-Starved Marriage". I read the first chapter online last night and REALLY liked what I was reading. So I purchased it and asked my wife if she would be willing to read it together with me. She agreed, though its probably out of feeling obligated to bring her life back to a state of "normacy" for her. I know this doesn't change my overall needs, but hopefully we can get some healthy communication going by reading this book. I still plan to get us to our MC as soon as we can in June. I do agree there are some hidden resentments here that I have to dig through and understand, but maybe this shared reading time will help. And I really like the idea of becoming the "drug of choice" as tnttim suggests, but with a long history of being the "drug of avoidance", I need to start slowly. And Giotto, I was at the point last year after MC that she was giving me more sex but we never got through her issues so the sex got less and less desirable for me because it was so obvious it was merely out of obligation. So this go-around, I really want to get to the root of this and turn her mind around so she starts enjoying the intimacy again. More updates to come!
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