Discussion about wife and intimacy issues

[mikeinaz]

I just turned 40. My wife and I have 3 kids, ages 7, 5, and 3, so its rather chaotic at all times. I work, my wife is a homemaker. My wife and I have been mostly happily married for 11 years, but sex has been dropping off gradually. Last year, I finally had had enough of the begging and being turned down. We went to a marriage counselor. The counselor had us list our needs/wants. Mine were simple: a good meal once in awhile (we trade off cooking meals, though I found myself cooking more than she), some affection from time to time, and sex twice a week. Her needs were extensive, but the counselor and I noticed a trend.

 

Each week her needs would change and the list would grow. Everytime I would work to fulfill a need of hers, she would change them. Each week, I would provide the exact same needs. Finally, the counselor put it on the line for her. She asked her if she thought life without me would be easy because thats where we were headed. My wife snapped out of it and started making more efforts to meet my needs. I have to add that the counselor also suggested she start taking some anti-depressants, which she took faithfully for about 8 months.

 

Life was going along great for me, but she decided to stop taking the pills. The change was immediate and distinct. She was more irritable, angry with myself and the kids, and less inclined to meet my needs. I've been begging her to start taking the pills again, but she claims she read on the internet that it could cause birth defects and she wants to have another child. (She's 37). She became pregnant in February of this year, but had our first miscarriage after a few weeks.

 

Since then, we've gone back to me asking for sex and being turned down. Sex has become a chore for her and almost not desirable for me either as she never does anything to make herself appealing to me. Its been like, "Yeah, I haven't showered all day, but go ahead and get it over with." I'm back to square one on this and am scheduling another appointment again with our marriage therapist. I'm sick and tired of feeling like a beat dog when asking for sex and being turned down. And to be honest, I'm sick and tired of having a wife that appears not to be attracted to me and does nothing to make sex appealing to me.

 

Now I know there will be the haters out there saying I'm only thinking of myself sexually here, but I promise you, I'm a giver. I offer all kinds of pleasure for her, which always gets turned down. And I know how to please--spent many years "practicing" before I was married.

 

I'm likely hitting full stride with mid-life crisis, which certainly isn't helping the situation. And I've been in touch with old girlfriends on Facebook who flirt with me and I don't reject the advances since its been my only inlet to affection lately. I have cut much of that off because I don't think its helping my situation, but I'm growing more frustrated and angry the longer this goes on.

 

Oh, one thing I should mention is that after being turned down two nights in a row recently, I finally reached my breaking point. I've retreated and have decided until we figure this thing out, my wife and I are merely good roommates with a common goal of raising our kids right, but I want no intimacy. I'm hoping when we finally get into the counselor, we can unscramble whats going on in her brain because I can't take being in a relationship with someone who seems to want nothing to do with me sexually.

 

Thanks,

-Mike

Edited May 8, 2010 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[SoleMate]

Very painful problem. Your marriage doesn't feel fair to you. You've done most of the obvious stuff to address the problem. I would suggest you get a copy of The Sex-Starved Marriage by Michele Weiner-Davis and see if there are any more ideas for you.

 

My final though is: Before things totally fall apart (affair/divorce), make an incredible communication effort involving WRITTEN statements about your frustration and despair. Don't leave her with ANY possible doubt about the existence of this problem and its effect on you.

[tnttim]

I went through the same thing you have, but I found a new way to light her fire. I have tested the technique by not doing it for 1 week and the sex fell off right away. So IMO it works very well once you understand what you are trying to accomplish to get her in the habit of initiating and craving sex.

 

First, stop all anti-seductive behaviors. Asking, begging for sex, and getting mad or even when you don't get sex. You have taken all of the fun and excitement out of sex by putting so much emphasis on it. Another anti-seductive trait is making sex a top priority, so stop that as well. Just by doing this you will increase your sexual value, which is very low right now. Does James Bond ask for sex, or get pissed when he doesn't get it? Is sex his top priority? Hell no.

 

There's a lot more, it's not complicated, it's all about understanding what makes her want sex from you. If you want me to elaborate let me know.

[Luv2dance]

Welcome! There are many threads discussing this situation and many men & women in your situation. Search for threads by Giotto also!

Here is a good one http://www.loveshack.org/forums/t223026/

 

I am a woman who is unhappy about my sex life and not sure I want to continue in my marriage. We are in marriage counseling (MC, lots of abbreviations on this site) and are starting a book called The Ten Minute Sexual Solution. Both of you have to be willing to work on the problem!

 

I do think that the more angry and demanding a spouse is the bigger the turn off for the lower libido spouse.

[carhill]

OP, welcome. Here's a more recent thread started by JamesM which chronicles the progression of his 'situation'. There are 552 posts, so it's a bit of a read, but worth it IMO.

 

My only advice is to prepare yourself mentally, emotionally and legally to leave and co-parent in a calm manner, because that's a real choice. Being proactive is one of the healthiest states you can be in during such times. Yes, it is a 'last' choice, but you have to be prepared and willing to make it. Good luck.

[mem11363]

This is mainly a question about your goal. If you wish to find someone in the same boat to commiserate, than James is your man.

 

If however your goal is to solve the problem, Atholk is your man.

 

The post below is the BEST post I have found on the boards about this stuff.

 

He also has a blog now - which you can find via google - his name is: Athol K

 

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

ATHOLK post from last year

 

It's very hard to get my entire approach to marriage in this format down, and to be honest it's mostly working best in making average/good relationships better, rather than salvaging bad ones. Once people have cheated or otherwise checked out of reality it's really hard to bring that back to what it was.

 

Loosely summarized - women respond to men exhibiting positive versions of two primary male traits called Alpha Male and Beta Male.

 

Alpha Male is devoted to physicality, assertiveness, leadership, social dominance, healthy genes, raw sexual energy, power and at times even violence. The positive version is thats of an inspiring protector and the not so positive is simply a thug. This is the male aspect that just gets panties wet and triggers attraction. Thugs still get panties wet, they are just scary to be a relationship with.

 

The Beta Male is devoted to personality traits that ultimately are good for rasing children. Work ethic, building the nest, kindess, parenting skills, listening, holding a job, controlling anger and sexual energy, art, language and creativity. The positive version is the family man that provides and supports, the negative version is the mangina that gives away all relationship power to the woman. Good Betas build relationship comfort. When the woman is given too much comfort and not enough attraction, she becomes bored with her partner. Often the begining of the end. (Queue up the "I love you, but I'm not in love with you" speech.)

 

The man needs to develop and show both Alpha and Beta traits over a long term relationship and show them appropriately. Most men typically do better with one or the other of these traits, and in times of pressure (like a break up) just act more and more from their position of natural strength. Natural Alpha's get bigger and louder and become scarier and even less reliable. Natural Beta's do more stuff for the woman and bore her to death with their neediness even faster. So more often than not, their natural reaction to relationship stress just intensifies the relationship problem.

 

So if you're too Beta the solution is to add Alpha. If you're too Alpha, the solution is to add Beta.

 

It is exceptionally important to balance both positive traits in a long term relationship. Women have a monthly sexual cycle with changing hormones that affects what they are more attracted to throughout the month. For about three weeks of the month women respond more positively to Beta Male behavior. But when she is ovulating Alpha Male behavior is highly attractive. Importantly - while ovulation is only a small part of the month, this is when she will make her most critical sexual decisions and is at her horniest. Husbands that fail to display Alpha traits specially during ovulation run a higher risk for being either abandoned, cheated on, or rasing children they think are theirs but aren't.

 

In terms of myself, I more naturally fall along lines of Beta behavior. My marriage has always been decent, but I've seen many improvements by learning to up the Alpha stuff.

 

Also a common misconception is that Alpha behavior involves some sort of aggression towards the wife (yelling, hitting, property destruction, issuing demands, bossing her about etc) These things do work to change her behavior, but only in the very short term as they undercut the positive Beta traits and ultimately destory the relationship. Ultimately the best Alpha display is that you're just going to make your way into the world with confidence and just succeed at whatever it is that you're going to do. Opinions of the rest of the world be damned, you're your own man. And like a huge truck on the interstate, you just create a huge hole in the air that makes following you easy.

 

 

 

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

 

 

 

 

I just turned 40. My wife and I have 3 kids, ages 7, 5, and 3, so its rather chaotic at all times. I work, my wife is a homemaker. My wife and I have been mostly happily married for 11 years, but sex has been dropping off gradually. Last year, I finally had had enough of the begging and being turned down. We went to a marriage counselor. The counselor had us list our needs/wants. Mine were simple: a good meal once in awhile (we trade off cooking meals, though I found myself cooking more than she), some affection from time to time, and sex twice a week. Her needs were extensive, but the counselor and I noticed a trend. Each week her needs would change and the list would grow. Everytime I would work to fulfill a need of hers, she would change them. Each week, I would provide the exact same needs. Finally, the counselor put it on the line for her. She asked her if she thought life without me would be easy because thats where we were headed. My wife snapped out of it and started making more efforts to meet my needs. I have to add that the counselor also suggested she start taking some anti-depressants, which she took faithfully for about 8 months. Life was going along great for me, but she decided to stop taking the pills. The change was immediate and distinct. She was more irritable, angry with myself and the kids, and less inclined to meet my needs. I've been begging her to start taking the pills again, but she claims she read on the internet that it could cause birth defects and she wants to have another child. (She's 37). She became pregnant in February of this year, but had our first miscarriage after a few weeks.

Since then, we've gone back to me asking for sex and being turned down. Sex has become a chore for her and almost not desirable for me either as she never does anything to make herself appealing to me. Its been like, "Yeah, I haven't showered all day, but go ahead and get it over with." I'm back to square one on this and am scheduling another appointment again with our marriage therapist. I'm sick and tired of feeling like a beat dog when asking for sex and being turned down. And to be honest, I'm sick and tired of having a wife that appears not to be attracted to me and does nothing to make sex appealing to me.

Now I know there will be the haters out there saying I'm only thinking of myself sexually here, but I promise you, I'm a giver. I offer all kinds of pleasure for her, which always gets turned down. And I know how to please--spent many years "practicing" before I was married.

I'm likely hitting full stride with mid-life crisis, which certainly isn't helping the situation. And I've been in touch with old girlfriends on Facebook who flirt with me and I don't reject the advances since its been my only inlet to affection lately. I have cut much of that off because I don't think its helping my situation, but I'm growing more frustrated and angry the longer this goes on.

Oh, one thing I should mention is that after being turned down two nights in a row recently, I finally reached my breaking point. I've retreated and have decided until we figure this thing out, my wife and I are merely good roommates with a common goal of raising our kids right, but I want no intimacy. I'm hoping when we finally get into the counselor, we can unscramble whats going on in her brain because I can't take being in a relationship with someone who seems to want nothing to do with me sexually.

 

I'm hoping JamesM will see this and respond, but obviously any useful opinions here would help.

Thanks,

-Mike

Edited May 8, 2010 by a LoveShack.org Moderator

[aeh]

Wow, I think this is right on target. Very interesting Alpha and Beta stuff. My husband is clearly a beta and becomes even more of a Beta when we aren't "getting along". I totally agree about having both the Alpha and Beta traits. Part of what I love so much about my H is that he is so responsible, caring, thoughtful, etc But there are really times when I want him to take more control, make decisions, etc. For example, we go to lunch together every day. I will ask him, "Where would you like to go?" He defers to me. I defer to him again bc he ALWAYS lets me pick. I tell him, "You choose". This goes back and forth, on and on. Sometimes I give in and just tell him a place bc I am sick of the indecision. But lately I have gone along with it bc there have been times when he finally will say something in regards to how we always do what I want to do...well, helloo......I am trying to let him make the stupid decision!! It annoys the heck out of me. Just make the freaking decision...it's not that big of a deal!!!

 

There are so many times when I really wish he would take charge, make a decision. I definitely appreciate his beta qualities but would definitely find myself even more sexually attracted if some alpha was thrown in there, too.

 

(As an aside, we have sex almost every day, sometimes 2 or 3 times a day, but the other night he reached for me and I was half-asleep and I asked if we could wait for morning. Well, I have had pouty comments about it for two days straight!)

[Luv2dance]

I also agree with the Alpha/Beta male issue and can see how it has played a role in my marriage. The beta in MH has come out more as I have become more vocal and has made him seem needy. I don't know if he can find his alpha male???

[giotto]

I'll never understand why women marry a beta male and then complain he is not alpha enough... and we are suppose to change? Well, tough luck!

 

My suggestion would be: stop complaining and get on with your life. Do what you want to do (without becoming "alpha" - that's bull**** and if you wife is half intelligent she will laugh at you), go to MC and try and find the reasons...

 

I'm surprised your wife was more inclined to have sex when taking ADs... they are notorious for destroying libido... finally: sorry to have to say this, but it's probably doomed...

[JamesM]

Hi,

I'm brand new to this forum and have no idea whether this will work, but I found a thread created by JamesM back in 2005 that comes very close to my current situation.

 

I'm hoping JamesM will see this and respond, but obviously any useful opinions here would help.

Thanks,

-Mike

 

First, I do see similarities but also some big differences. Does your wife live with alot of pain from fibromyalgia? Has you wife been sexually abused? These two issues change the situation more than I want to admit.

 

Second, what questions do you have for me? What has worked and what has not worked? Or did you have something specific?

 

As carhill said, my threads have chronicled my successes and lack of success along the last few years.

 

While sex is not as much as others would like, it has been better for me. Since my work is very busy right now, then sex is on the back burner. However, last night was a night that I know was good for both of us. It is a good feeling when SHE says thank you after it is over.

 

My only advice is to prepare yourself mentally, emotionally and legally to leave and co-parent in a calm manner, because that's a real choice.

 

You have a choice. Fix your marriage or leave it. IMO the best thing that you can do for yourself is to do everything to fix it. Leaving before you know that you have done so will leave questions in your mind...could I have done more? If you end up watching your wife happily with someone else who "pushed" the right buttons, then you will be sorry for years to come.

 

Choosing to have the divorce option in front right now could cause you not to try everything. However, allowing yourself an out may give you more power to fix your marriage and less of a hopelessness that you are stuck.

 

This is mainly a question about your goal. If you wish to find someone in the same boat to commiserate, than James is your man.

 

If however your goal is to solve the problem, Atholk is your man.

 

I will join you in your misery, but I think I can add some advice, too.

 

I would advise to try every bit of advice that is offered to you and see if it fits your situation. While personally, I don't think that changing your personality will fix your marriage because you are who you are. You can change temporarily but when things become better, then the tendency is to be lazy and revert to "normal." Having said that, I can see how being more "Alpha" and "Beta" will help. Example...and perhaps why the great night...I did make some decisions last night that helped her and showed her that I do care. Is it out of the ordinary for me? I don't think so. Did it show that I cared more for HER than for say, the family or kids? Yes. Perhaps it simply was the timing. And perhaps when we do have sex, this plays a role.

 

 

I am going to say that IMO in most (like 80% or more) of the sexless marriages, good times in the sex department fluctuate depending on the circumstances. I do not think that a magic pill or solution will cure all.

 

You have been offered some good ideas from a number of posters, and these ideas have worked for them. I would advise that trying each one would be good for you.

 

One never knows until one tries.

[JamesM]

I'll never understand why women marry a beta male and then complain he is not alpha enough... and we are suppose to change? Well, tough luck!

 

My suggestion would be: stop complaining and get on with your life. Do what you want to do (without becoming "alpha" - that's bull**** and if you wife is half intelligent she will laugh at you), go to MC and try and find the reasons...

 

I'm surprised your wife was more inclined to have sex when taking ADs... they are notorious for destroying libido... finally: sorry to have to say this, but it's probably doomed...

 

I agree and well said. I don't agree yet that the narriage is doomed.

 

As for the alpha and beta crap, it can only help it it fits your personality. If it causes you to be different and fake, then it will never work.

 

The problem with easy solutions that involve changes in personality is that we are not consistent. And the person we live with can see that we are not being real. Being more assertive or being more considerate is good. Trying to be someone we are not is not good.

[Toodamnpragmatic]

I'll never understand why women marry a beta male and then complain he is not alpha enough... and we are suppose to change? Well, tough luck!

 

My suggestion would be: stop complaining and get on with your life. Do what you want to do (without becoming "alpha" - that's bull**** and if you wife is half intelligent she will laugh at you), go to MC and try and find the reasons...

 

I'm surprised your wife was more inclined to have sex when taking ADs... they are notorious for destroying libido... finally: sorry to have to say this, but it's probably doomed...

 

I tried the Alpha approach when my spouse returned from a weekend away (with another Girl's weekend coming up). I did a # of little things to show how appreciative I was she was coming home, but did not call or bother her when she was gone enjoying herself (just responding to bbm's and 1 or 2 of my own). A little tiff upon her return (miscommunication) and then it exploded as I continued the Alpha approach as did she, ignoring all the things done..... And no I was not being prissy, just Alpha:rolleyes:. May work with some (who are I hate to say submissive deep down though will claim otherwise). Doesn't work with my spouse that's a fact.....

 

Oh yea, toot my own horn.... Check my posts too......

[Luv2dance]

I'll never understand why women marry a beta male and then complain he is not alpha enough... and we are suppose to change? Well, tough luck!

 

But, you are beta's that love sex...THAT would work for me.

 

I think we all do a bit of changing to fit the role we are in or the person we are with and that helps to keep the peace. If we stick our heels in the mud and refuse to move well then there is constant conflict. Do agree that you mostly have to be yourself, and I think a lot of us have a hard time figuring out exactly who that is..or maybe I'm the only confused one here??

 

For the OP I think you have to figure out how to communicate your needs in a way that your wife will respond to and until she really sees it as a problem not much will change.

[mem11363]

G,

I remember one of your recent posts that really really jumped out at me. I will paraphrase:

 

From the start of our marriage, when my wife and I would fight about sex, about the kids, or even about other stuff I would always approach her to make up.

 

That single decision - to always be the peacemaker - completely eroded your status as an equal/comparable partner in the marriage. It defined you as the person who would always give in - always make up - even when they were NOT being treated very well.

 

You seem to have a desire to caricature the alpha behaviors. My best and most effective alpha posture is when I simply decline to engage with my wife when she is being nutty/aggressive or mean.

 

I love my wife. And I DO fear her though I conceal it well. She is however fully aware that when I feel sufficiently ill treated I go into limited communication mode (schedules/kids nothing else) until she comes to her senses. And I don't like doing it - I never have. But it works 10 times better than anything else. And in LC mode - when she escalates which is very rare I start scheduling long weekend trips with friends - nothing sexual - no females - just time away.

 

So if you think that a typical male doesn't have the balls to learn how to wait his wife out when he is certain that he is the injured party - then you have a much lower opinion of our fellow man than I do. I just think you need to set your pattern early in the marriage. And the pattern of "I can't tolerate the idea of us being mad at each other" conveys an emotional neediness that is VERY counterproductive in a marriage.

 

 

I'll never understand why women marry a beta male and then complain he is not alpha enough... and we are suppose to change? Well, tough luck!

 

My suggestion would be: stop complaining and get on with your life. Do what you want to do (without becoming "alpha" - that's bull**** and if you wife is half intelligent she will laugh at you), go to MC and try and find the reasons...

 

I'm surprised your wife was more inclined to have sex when taking ADs... they are notorious for destroying libido... finally: sorry to have to say this, but it's probably doomed...

[mikeinaz]

Wow, thanks all for the very quick responses. To answer a couple of questions:

 

The reason I came to JamesM is because he's famous! A simple Google search of "My Wife Won't Have Sex With Me" pulls up James' original thread from 2005. I have to admit, I had hoped to find James living the life he had hoped all those many years ago. Based on the huge thread (which I haven't had time to completely read yet) from 2009, it appears that in many ways things are exactly the same, if not worse. I'm sorry to see this progression (or regression, as the case may be) and I feel for you James. To answer your questions James, no my wife suffers from no physical issues nor was she a victim of any sexual abuse. So in that way, we are very different. I can see that would be an extremely delicate situation and in many ways would be reason for some of the behavior.

 

This being said, I can't imagine 5+ more years of this situation. I did something mildly drastic (is that an oxymoron???) a year ago and I think that is my next step again. I moved into the downstairs guest bedroom for a bit. My wife realized I was serious when that occurred and capitulated for awhile and I moved back to our bed. In the end, I'm a pretty simple man. A bed is for sleeping. Sharing a bed with someone is for sex. Point blank. If you're not having sex, there is no point in sharing a bed. So starting this weekend, I'm moving in downstairs again. The only downside to this is my kids are confused as to why I'm not in my bed. I don't like confusing the kids, but my wife needs to understand how serious this is.

 

I do agree with others that have said essentially that holding my wife emotionally hostage for sex is not healthy, but on the flipside, holding me non-sexually hostage while she gets everything else she wants is also not healthy. In the end, we desperately need to get back to therapy. Unfortunately, our MT is out of office until June and that seems like an eternity to me, but in comparison to James' situation, I can live with it.

 

I also appreciate the advice from TNTTIM in a separate thread. I'm willing to try that, but we have to smooth some things out before we get to that point or it will just backfire, IMHO.

 

So my background--I'm deeply religious. I believe marriage to be a partnership between my wife, myself, and God. I have no intention of divorcing because of those beliefs and unfortunately, my wife knows this too. This leaves me no leverage to threaten divorce. I've seriously considered separation, however (beyond the physical separation by moving downstairs). But I then go down the road of feeling selfish because the only real thing that is missing is the sex and it seems like no real reason to separate. So I find myself back to square one. And considering my religious beliefs, that rules out the affair and the outside sex sources, though like others, my wife would actually probably be relieved that someone else were taking care of business so she wouldn't have to worry about it anymore.

 

Regarding the "Alpha Male" conversation, I have started working out, trimming down, toning up--likely in an attempt to make myself more desirable. But the more I hear from my wife, it really has nothing to do with whether or not I work out or look good. But I do believe there are valid points about her female friends starting to notice me. My wife is not a jealous type, but maybe she will notice if/when her friends make comments. Seems like a lame way of getting my wife to want to become intimate with me again, but I'm at wits end and am willing to try anything.

 

The really crappy thing about this is I appear to be headed down the exact same path as my parents. They stayed together for 23 years, mostly just living as roommates--little affection, dad was a work-a-holic, etc. 6 months after the last child (me) was out of the house, they separated and divorced. I applaud them for sticking it out for my sister and I, but I sure as hell don't want to be together for another 15 years (my youngest is 3). But I feel like we're on the exact same path and I'm doomed to repeat my parent's lives. On a positive note, both my parents remarried and are with partners who are MUCH more compatible and are much happier. So if nothing else, there is hope for me at the end of it all.

 

Anyway, we need to get into the MC and I'll have to provide an update on progress (or lack thereof). Thanks again for all the responses!

-Mike

[mem11363]

Mike,

 

Do you know what behaviors/events turn your wife on/off? And there are two categories - in bed and out of bed. Do you know both?

 

Have you ever talked to your wife about how you TWO can work together to come up with an approach that will allow you to gently/slowly get her aroused when she starts out "not in the mood".

 

I know this might sound odd but with my wife - one thing that is a HUGE turnoff is for me to touch her breasts/vag too early - and I think she is pretty normal in that.

 

So my approach is NOT to try to figure out - to the second - how soon I can touch her there. Instead I go way slower than I have to. That way by the time I get there she is BEGGING me to get on with it. Very nice actually.

 

If my wife wasn't willing to let me slowly get her aroused - when she starts out not in the mood - we would be divorced. Sorry I know that sounds harsh but the simple truth is that SHE is my highest priority in life. So if she wasn't willing to make the effort to have a good/great sex life with me then this is a hopelessly unbalanced marriage. I don't hold her emotionally hostage - but I absolutely have told her when I feel deprioritized in or out of bed. And she understands that.

 

The real issue in these situations is you have one person who is literally doing everything in their power to make the other person happy and the recipient is not making even a moderate effort to reciprocate.

 

 

 

Wow, thanks all for the very quick responses. To answer a couple of questions:

 

The reason I came to JamesM is because he's famous! A simple Google search of "My Wife Won't Have Sex With Me" pulls up James' original thread from 2005. I have to admit, I had hoped to find James living the life he had hoped all those many years ago. Based on the huge thread (which I haven't had time to completely read yet) from 2009, it appears that in many ways things are exactly the same, if not worse. I'm sorry to see this progression (or regression, as the case may be) and I feel for you James. To answer your questions James, no my wife suffers from no physical issues nor was she a victim of any sexual abuse. So in that way, we are very different. I can see that would be an extremely delicate situation and in many ways would be reason for some of the behavior.

 

This being said, I can't imagine 5+ more years of this situation. I did something mildly drastic (is that an oxymoron???) a year ago and I think that is my next step again. I moved into the downstairs guest bedroom for a bit. My wife realized I was serious when that occurred and capitulated for awhile and I moved back to our bed. In the end, I'm a pretty simple man. A bed is for sleeping. Sharing a bed with someone is for sex. Point blank. If you're not having sex, there is no point in sharing a bed. So starting this weekend, I'm moving in downstairs again. The only downside to this is my kids are confused as to why I'm not in my bed. I don't like confusing the kids, but my wife needs to understand how serious this is.

 

I do agree with others that have said essentially that holding my wife emotionally hostage for sex is not healthy, but on the flipside, holding me non-sexually hostage while she gets everything else she wants is also not healthy. In the end, we desperately need to get back to therapy. Unfortunately, our MT is out of office until June and that seems like an eternity to me, but in comparison to James' situation, I can live with it.

 

I also appreciate the advice from TNTTIM in a separate thread. I'm willing to try that, but we have to smooth some things out before we get to that point or it will just backfire, IMHO.

 

So my background--I'm deeply religious. I believe marriage to be a partnership between my wife, myself, and God. I have no intention of divorcing because of those beliefs and unfortunately, my wife knows this too. This leaves me no leverage to threaten divorce. I've seriously considered separation, however (beyond the physical separation by moving downstairs). But I then go down the road of feeling selfish because the only real thing that is missing is the sex and it seems like no real reason to separate. So I find myself back to square one. And considering my religious beliefs, that rules out the affair and the outside sex sources, though like others, my wife would actually probably be relieved that someone else were taking care of business so she wouldn't have to worry about it anymore.

 

Regarding the "Alpha Male" conversation, I have started working out, trimming down, toning up--likely in an attempt to make myself more desirable. But the more I hear from my wife, it really has nothing to do with whether or not I work out or look good. But I do believe there are valid points about her female friends starting to notice me. My wife is not a jealous type, but maybe she will notice if/when her friends make comments. Seems like a lame way of getting my wife to want to become intimate with me again, but I'm at wits end and am willing to try anything.

 

The really crappy thing about this is I appear to be headed down the exact same path as my parents. They stayed together for 23 years, mostly just living as roommates--little affection, dad was a work-a-holic, etc. 6 months after the last child (me) was out of the house, they separated and divorced. I applaud them for sticking it out for my sister and I, but I sure as hell don't want to be together for another 15 years (my youngest is 3). But I feel like we're on the exact same path and I'm doomed to repeat my parent's lives. On a positive note, both my parents remarried and are with partners who are MUCH more compatible and are much happier. So if nothing else, there is hope for me at the end of it all.

 

Anyway, we need to get into the MC and I'll have to provide an update on progress (or lack thereof). Thanks again for all the responses!

-Mike

[Toodamnpragmatic]

You're deeply religious and won't divorce and you played a very significant card by moving to the basement. The results minimal at best.

 

What you need to do is simply not make it a big deal, stop obsessing and asking for it. Maybe it can be somewhat of a joke between you, which it is with us.

 

Point is, you do have to change your views on sex, which means in all likelihood less, but hopefully something you can live with.

 

I love mem11363, there are plenty of posts you can read of his, and he certainly is thoughtful and caring in his posts, but heck I find it hard to to listen to anyone who outside one or two instances get's it 2-4X's/wk. Unfortunately we are all different as are our spouses.

[mikeinaz]

Before I respond to mem11363, I forgot to mention something. The meds she was on didn't *directly* contribute to us having more sex. We had agreed with the MC that we would have sex twice a week--ironically on Sat. & Wed. For those who don't know that reference, check out this video:

 

 

But the meds certainly made her less stressed and made for a much happier home all the way around, so in a way, it likely contributed to more sex indirectly.

 

Back to mem11363, yes, I think I'm pretty aware of her turn ons. The ironic thing about all of this is that she always has an orgasm and afterward admits she enjoys sex with me. But its the lead up to it that always causes the stress and argument. I could definitely try the slower approach, though she's usually the "lets just get it over with" one. I LOVE to please and would love to go downtown for hours if she'd let me, but she never really likes foreplay anymore. But maybe a more playful approach would work.

Regarding turn-ons outside the bedroom, essentially she just likes to travel. I do as well, but we're going to end up homeless if I have to travel everytime I want a little nookie!

[mikeinaz]

Sorry toodamnpragmatic, you jumped in there while I was replying to mem.

 

You make a good point. I have become pretty obsessive over the sex thing. I would make a joke out it, but I'm still pretty angry right now. I need to get to the MC ASAP to iron out some feelings.

 

Funny thing, as I was reading through what I was typing, I realized that since my wife likely knows I won't divorce because of our religious beliefs, I can likely use that to my advantage as well. If she believes as deeply as I do about our marriage vows, and I believe she does, then maybe I can appeal to her on a religious level. Not to threaten or manipulate, maybe just to remind her of our commitments to each other....... Thoughts?

[Luv2dance]

Sorry toodamnpragmatic, you jumped in there while I was replying to mem.

 

You make a good point. I have become pretty obsessive over the sex thing. I would make a joke out it, but I'm still pretty angry right now. I need to get to the MC ASAP to iron out some feelings.

 

Funny thing, as I was reading through what I was typing, I realized that since my wife likely knows I won't divorce because of our religious beliefs, I can likely use that to my advantage as well. If she believes as deeply as I do about our marriage vows, and I believe she does, then maybe I can appeal to her on a religious level. Not to threaten or manipulate, maybe just to remind her of our commitments to each other....... Thoughts?

 

I also take my vows seriously from a religious standpoint and would like to believe I would never divorce. (although lately I'm not so sure) Knowing that you have a religious background then I would suggest maybe some books about marriage written from that stance. I know one that has been recommended to me is Love and Respect basis of the book is... A wife has one driving need -- to feel loved. When that need is met, she is happy. A husband has one driving need -- to feel respected. When that need is met, he is happy. (I'm guessing part of being respected is getting some on a regular basis )

 

It is clear in the bible that sex is part of what is expected in a marriage so maybe taking it back to the basics would create some interest. You would just need to be very careful to also include all the things you should be doing for her. I applaud you for working hard to save your marriage!

[tnttim]

Do you really want to guilt your wife into sex, it sounds like she wouldn't be into that particular session, or any others initiated under those pretenses. So basically she would be having sex and not getting anything out of it. Do you want to develop a sex life where you wife gets nothing out of it. I did it for 5 years, and suffered the consequences.

 

I would rather give her the emotions that create sexual tension, and give me sex appeal in return. Then she wants sex like she did when we first dating, when she wasn't 100% sure I would jump on her, or 100% sure I found her sexually attractive.

 

I stopped my sexual tension building efforts for one week, and the sex fell off. So I'm really confident that this really works, but only time will tell. 3 months and counting is not bad though, most methods only get 2-3 times then it starts to fail.

[mikeinaz]

Luv2dance, thanks for the book suggestion. I'll look into it.

 

Tnttim, no I don't want to guilt my wife into sex. I want a wife who actually finds me attractive and desirable. I'm moving into the downstairs room to buy me some time until we can get back into our MC and figure this thing out. I've been pretty hurt over this thing and maybe this is a ploy to send some of that pain back her way. It seems to have worked for now--I told her at dinner tonight I was moving into the downstairs guest room. She actually seemed surprised, which just proves how disconnected we are from each other's emotions. She broke down and was crying and we didn't end up talking the rest of the night. So I'm now writing this from the downstairs bedroom. Its actually a relief to me because now that I know sex is out of the question for now, I don't obsess over it. Ironically, she should be thrilled with the situation because she's getting exactly what she wanted----a sexless marriage. I'm still physically here to help with the kids, mow the lawn, pay the bills, but separated so there is no "threat" of sex. Best of all deals for her if you ask me. But the fact that she's visibly shaken over this hopefully means she'll snap out of this funk and realize that we both have needs.....

Don't get me wrong Tnttim, I plan to use your advice, but I need to push a little reality her way right now.

[giotto]

Luv2dance, thanks for the book suggestion. I'll look into it.

 

Tnttim, no I don't want to guilt my wife into sex. I want a wife who actually finds me attractive and desirable. I'm moving into the downstairs room to buy me some time until we can get back into our MC and figure this thing out. I've been pretty hurt over this thing and maybe this is a ploy to send some of that pain back her way. It seems to have worked for now--I told her at dinner tonight I was moving into the downstairs guest room. She actually seemed surprised, which just proves how disconnected we are from each other's emotions. She broke down and was crying and we didn't end up talking the rest of the night. So I'm now writing this from the downstairs bedroom. Its actually a relief to me because now that I know sex is out of the question for now, I don't obsess over it. Ironically, she should be thrilled with the situation because she's getting exactly what she wanted----a sexless marriage. I'm still physically here to help with the kids, mow the lawn, pay the bills, but separated so there is no "threat" of sex. Best of all deals for her if you ask me. But the fact that she's visibly shaken over this hopefully means she'll snap out of this funk and realize that we both have needs.....

Don't get me wrong Tnttim, I plan to use your advice, but I need to push a little reality her way right now.

 

I had to do that, to make her realise how serious I was... I moved into my office, relieved I didn't have to put up with that crap either, to show her I had had enough and I was done with it. In fact, we separated. She seemed quite hurt at the beginning, but then I suppose she was happy... I was there, being a father and doing all the rest, but with no sex. We separated to give her "space" and I liked my space too... After 2 months nothing had changed, so I started looking for a flat to move into. Wrote her a letter, to say goodbye. She decided to compromise then... things got better and then deteriorated again... decided to move out again... new compromise. Promise of therapy from her (she has issues from her upbringing but refuses to see a therapist). Therapy doesn't happen... but we are having sex again, every 10 days or so... but it's a bit sad, really. I know she does it for me, although she claims to "love me". I'm staying for the kids, really... good luck...

[mikeinaz]

Thanks Giotto. I hope it doesn't come to me actually having to move out. But my wife knows I'm serious about this. We haven't really spoken since I told her I was moving downstairs. Funny, last night was one of the most restful nights I've had in awhile--go figure.

I find it very noble for anyone to stick it out for the children--good on ya, Giotto. But I hope we both manage to find a better balance in life that makes us truly happy.....

[jenifer1972]

Sorry toodamnpragmatic, you jumped in there while I was replying to mem.

 

You make a good point. I have become pretty obsessive over the sex thing. I would make a joke out it, but I'm still pretty angry right now. I need to get to the MC ASAP to iron out some feelings.

 

Funny thing, as I was reading through what I was typing, I realized that since my wife likely knows I won't divorce because of our religious beliefs, I can likely use that to my advantage as well. If she believes as deeply as I do about our marriage vows, and I believe she does, then maybe I can appeal to her on a religious level. Not to threaten or manipulate, maybe just to remind her of our commitments to each other....... Thoughts?

 

No, I think that will just increase her sense of 'obligation'....

 

Now THIS, THIS could work: "So you want another baby? You are depressed and not taking care of them or ME properly, and you want me to hop on your bandwagon for another baby? Oh, and with enthusiasm when you don't even want to have SEX with me?. Do you want me to just put it in a cup and give it to you to have your doctor put it in your vagina with a turkey baster? I don't want to bring another child into this loveless marriage". THAT will get her attention.