Jersey Shortie Posted April 30, 2010 Posted April 30, 2010 Men and women are equally guilty in picking poor mates. We both get side tracked with the shiney flash. Hopefully as you learn and grow older, you discover what is really important and what will authentically make you happy. And yes, just because a woman is pretty doesn't mean she is a good or bad person. Just because a guy is hot with lots of money, doesn't mean he will love you and leave you or stay. People and their experiences are very varied. And no, I don't believe that junk that men only looke for two things. that's quite insulting to men if you ask me.
Author Woggle Posted April 30, 2010 Author Posted April 30, 2010 Feminism is and of itself is not a bad thing. I don't blame anybody one bit for wanting freedom and equality but a few women within the movement with a vendetta against men turned it into something else. They believe that they have to crush men in order to bring women up which is why you have some women these days trying to turn men into emasculated weenies.
espec10001 Posted April 30, 2010 Posted April 30, 2010 who ever said we were better than men? and as far as all the other BS... really? this has to be one of the most ignorant posts I've ever read here on LS... get out from under your rock dude... You want to be better than men, don't you? That's your goal, to end the need for men, since men seem to screw everything up, correct?
MrNate Posted April 30, 2010 Posted April 30, 2010 You want to be better than men, don't you? That's your goal, to end the need for men, since men seem to screw everything up, correct? lol wha? I dunno espc 1001. I doubt most women would want to just cast men aside, emasculate us and make us feel worthless. Besides, they could only do that if we let them. Don't forget, there is nothing in this world (even if women achieved every goal imaginable) that could EVER replace a man's touch. No doll, no toy, no promotion..nothing. And that's a fact. I wouldn't stress over it man. I doubt women are trying to take over men.
espec10001 Posted April 30, 2010 Posted April 30, 2010 lol wha? I dunno espc 1001. I doubt most women would want to just cast men aside, emasculate us and make us feel worthless. Besides, they could only do that if we let them. Don't forget, there is nothing in this world (even if women achieved every goal imaginable) that could EVER replace a man's touch. No doll, no toy, no promotion..nothing. And that's a fact. I wouldn't stress over it man. I doubt women are trying to take over men. It's a stark reality, but in today's world we are competing for jobs with women. Women are competing to become better than men at many things. I say good for them, but they should expect some competition back!
carhill Posted April 30, 2010 Posted April 30, 2010 Here is what 30-something's laundry list looks like: 1. Not Obese 50 something... 1. Not dead 2. Emotionally stable IMO, after having gone through MC, having a compatible family background is critical, especially if one of the people came from a stable and loving home and has only experienced that family dynamic throughout their lives. TBH, I was clueless about how the 'rest' of the world worked. Like stbx said, very clearly, 'You'll never understand'. Now, knowing, I stay away from it. I don't care how 'attractive' it might be. It's also incompatible and unhealthy, for me. YMMV. I got a whiff of the dynamic with a lady I was recently dating, in listening to how she described her former spouse, as well as her mother, and even her adult son. The new improved people-picker (and listening to some of the wise sages here on LS) helped me see things clearly. Change is possible.
fantasy2000 Posted April 30, 2010 Posted April 30, 2010 That being said most women still want an Alpha provider and want a man to play a traditional role and if that is the case why shouldn't she play her role as well? If a woman expects me to pay for everything and take the main leadership role then why shouldn't I expect her to cook, clean and play the traditional female roles? Women can get mad at this but if so then they should expecting men to play our roles. Equality goes both ways. True enough. I think if the woman has a man who can be a good provider then many will opt out of the stressful work-family chaotic life that most of them find themselves in today and slip back quietly into the traditional role. Although some may not admit this in case it got some of their feminist friends mad. The feminists promised them a big role in the workplace but forgot to mention all the stress that can come with it especially when you are the primary care giver at the same time. Don't ask for what you want you just might get it.
Author Woggle Posted April 30, 2010 Author Posted April 30, 2010 True enough. I think if the woman has a man who can be a good provider then many will opt out of the stressful work-family chaotic life that most of them find themselves in today and slip back quietly into the traditional role. Although some may not admit this in case it got some of their feminist friends mad. The feminists promised them a big role in the workplace but forgot to mention all the stress that can come with it especially when you are the primary care giver at the same time. Don't ask for what you want you just might get it. I do think there are women who genuinely do enjoy their jobs and I have no issue with this but don't expect me to play the traditional alpha male role while you expect me to be okay with you being miss independent. It doesn't work that way. My view is that if a woman wants a traditional man she should be a traditional woman. If not then embrace across the board equality.
sumdude Posted May 3, 2010 Posted May 3, 2010 2. Emotionally stable IMO, after having gone through MC, having a compatible family background is critical, especially if one of the people came from a stable and loving home and has only experienced that family dynamic throughout their lives. TBH, I was clueless about how the 'rest' of the world worked. Like stbx said, very clearly, 'You'll never understand'. Now, knowing, I stay away from it. I don't care how 'attractive' it might be. It's also incompatible and unhealthy, for me. YMMV. I got a whiff of the dynamic with a lady I was recently dating, in listening to how she described her former spouse, as well as her mother, and even her adult son. The new improved people-picker (and listening to some of the wise sages here on LS) helped me see things clearly. Change is possible. AMEN! Carhill, something tells me your stbx and my ex were cut from similar cloth. I seem to attract women who come from a less stable family dynamic and childhood like a candle to moths. Strange thing is when i meet a woman who far more emotionally stable.. I don't know what to think.. as if I'm somehow not attracted to exactly what I should be attracted to?
Author Woggle Posted May 3, 2010 Author Posted May 3, 2010 AMEN! Carhill, something tells me your stbx and my ex were cut from similar cloth. I seem to attract women who come from a less stable family dynamic and childhood like a candle to moths. Strange thing is when i meet a woman who far more emotionally stable.. I don't know what to think.. as if I'm somehow not attracted to exactly what I should be attracted to? You are not much different than the women who always attract bad boys. Men also have a habit of attracting women with issues especially if we have a rescuer complex. Realize that emotionally stable women do exist and while they might be more independent than the drama queens they make far better partners. I used to attract women with issues but I learned my lesson the hard way.
carhill Posted May 3, 2010 Posted May 3, 2010 Perhaps I should have used the word 'balanced' to more accurately describe the dynamic, as 'stable' could mean a flat line. Someone who is devoid of emotion can be perceived as 'stable' simply because they show/express/process little to no emotion. A balance between, for lack of a better phrase, joy and sorrow, would be my preference, at the essential emotional level, and that balance would be expressed in words and actions. The most poignant commonality I've noticed from these experiences is what I call the Hoover effect. Whether flat line or drama queen, these people suck the life, love and joy out of a person. It's palpable. It's like they 'Hoover' it to replace the vacuum of what they never felt they received as a child or during their adulthood. It's like they feel 'owed' and those who 'love' them 'owe' them. I got that impression from stbx's entire family. <shudders>
AD1980 Posted May 3, 2010 Posted May 3, 2010 I think stable people seem to spot out bitches or dbags of their OWN gender more quickly then the opposite sex can.. I dont know how many times soem female friend got charmed by some guy who was obviously a roided up dbag who was gonna hurt her and any man from a mile away could spot it but she was taken in by his lines and maybe muscles and a few months later got burned and realized what most good Men saw right away.. Im sure good women can do the same things with other women..
Disillusioned Posted May 3, 2010 Posted May 3, 2010 Attracting women is the easy part but too many men see a cute body and a nice smile and assume that a woman is worthy relationship material which is clearly not the case. Men need to learn what red flags to look for and what signs a woman gives that she might be a future cheater or a future walkaway wife or in general will betray a man. We also need to learn what are the signs of a good partner and what traits a woman who is commitment material has. There are so many books on picking up women but I see none on choosing the right woman. You said it better than I can. Unfortunately, we have this unwritten rule that attraction and dating are supposed to be counterintuitive, so the grab-bag mentality prevails regardless of what guys like you and I think. It's an unforgivable sin for anyone to fiddle with those unwritten rules.
sumdude Posted May 4, 2010 Posted May 4, 2010 You said it better than I can. Unfortunately, we have this unwritten rule that attraction and dating are supposed to be counterintuitive, so the grab-bag mentality prevails regardless of what guys like you and I think. It's an unforgivable sin for anyone to fiddle with those unwritten rules. Well there's that.. and the fact that is at least seems like the 'crazy' ones are often awesome in the sack... at least at first.
phineas Posted May 4, 2010 Posted May 4, 2010 AMEN! Carhill, something tells me your stbx and my ex were cut from similar cloth. I seem to attract women who come from a less stable family dynamic and childhood like a candle to moths. Strange thing is when i meet a woman who far more emotionally stable.. I don't know what to think.. as if I'm somehow not attracted to exactly what I should be attracted to? My STBXW's family is scattered to the winds. parents divorced ect. My family is close. She was extreamly uncomfortable with that. The more my family tried to welcome her the more she pulled away & tried to pull me with her.
carhill Posted May 4, 2010 Posted May 4, 2010 Yeah, same here. Stbx, a different school each year. Me, 12 years of private school, same town my whole life. What was weird was that she always wanted a relationship with my mother (who was faithful, stable and generous to us until she became demented) that she never had with hers, but always felt that my mom resented her, no matter how generous and loving she (mom) was. She even, later on when I was a caregiver, had me believing my childhood was ef'ed up, dad (whom she never knew, long dead) was a 'milk toast' and mom was an overbearing beast. I bought into it for awhile, since my self-esteem and confidence were low. Nothing I did for her family was good enough. There was always 'more'. The good news is that these lessons have sharpened my people-picker. There are men who have the social skills and background to handle and enjoy a woman like her, and I hope they find each other. I'm quite happy being off that path and not looking to experience it ever again. Now that I know the signs and background, I trust it will be a far healthier experience in the future
sumdude Posted May 4, 2010 Posted May 4, 2010 Phineass, Carhill... similar story. When my ex was little her mom left her, her sister and father by surprise one night. Ex always had a rough relationship with mom, loved dad but dad was a bit neglectful and a drinker who remarried a couple times.. Bounced between mom and dad, various step parents in and out of her life. Possible sexual abuse and left to her own devices too much growing up. My parents stayed married though my family had it's issues too. I lived in the same town pretty much. Have a lot of friends I've known even since grade school. My ex at first seemed to like the close family... but then ended up resenting it. Especially my sister and my mother. So one day my ex left me by surprise... the same way her mother left her father. I'm just glad there weren't any kids to be traumatized.
phineas Posted May 4, 2010 Posted May 4, 2010 Phineass, Carhill... similar story. When my ex was little her mom left her, her sister and father by surprise one night. Ex always had a rough relationship with mom, loved dad but dad was a bit neglectful and a drinker who remarried a couple times.. Bounced between mom and dad, various step parents in and out of her life. Possible sexual abuse and left to her own devices too much growing up. My parents stayed married though my family had it's issues too. I lived in the same town pretty much. Have a lot of friends I've known even since grade school. My ex at first seemed to like the close family... but then ended up resenting it. Especially my sister and my mother. So one day my ex left me by surprise... the same way her mother left her father. I'm just glad there weren't any kids to be traumatized. I was always the type of person that didn't bring a woman around my family until I knew she was going to stick around. So by then I was attached & if my family didn't like her I ignored it. My cousin had a different girl over to family gatherings every month. I'm thinking he had the right idea because if my family didn't like her, she knew right away & so did he. LOL!
carhill Posted May 6, 2010 Posted May 6, 2010 Let's try a different angle, one of determining the type of man one is and looking to better select a compatible woman. In another thread, it was suggested that women, being of more 'equal' status, earning for themselves and pursuing careers where equal pay and working standards promote success, are actively looking for, but having difficulty finding, men who are their equals, spiritually and emotionally. I'm not seeing evidence of this phenomena (the actively looking part), so I opined thusly: When I meet a woman who responds positively and with attraction to this, presently, outlier male perspective of being emotionally available and expressive, I will trumpet it here first. It will indeed be a happy day.Expanding on those thoughts here, I'll add: It's pretty simple. A robot can be programed. A human cannot. If a woman wants a strong, silent man who never complains, never shares his feelings, never pursues emotional intimacy (or does so in quantities that *she* decides), then that's what she wants. If she wants a man who openly expresses his feelings, is empathetic to those of others, and pursues emotional intimacy, she gets all of those things, for better or worse, just like a man gets with and from a woman. She gets all the fears, the sadness, the anxiety, just like the joy, the empathy, the confidence and strength. IMO, a complete man (or woman) shares *all* of themselves with a committed intimate partner. Women tell me they do and want that from their men. That's what I'm *hearing*, but I'm not yet seeing *actions* to back up those words. Indeed, if the day *ever* arrives where I sense in a qualifiable or quantifiable way, meaning *actions*, which validates and shows attraction to and for such a perspective in a man, I will report it here. In my lifetime, as of yet, it has not occurred with any single woman. It has occurred with married and attached women who have used my emotional availability as a tampon for what lacks in the marriages, but their *attraction* does not match their *want*. They are still *attracted* to the distant, unavailable man whom they forever pursue. I've seen enough now, at my age, who divorce for other reasons, generally infidelity, and *still* pursue the same type of man. The wonderful lesson in all of this is acceptance. Those women *want* what they want, are *attracted* to what they're attracted to, and that is their path. By accepting this truth and quickly perceiving the signs of that path, a man who knows he's incompatible with such a woman saves precicious time (and emotion, since he has and expresses emotion) in his life journey. She is not a 'challenge' to be pursued and won over. It's never too late to learn.
sumdude Posted May 6, 2010 Posted May 6, 2010 If she wants a man who openly expresses his feelings, is empathetic to those of others, and pursues emotional intimacy, she gets all of those things, for better or worse, just like a man gets with and from a woman. She gets all the fears, the sadness, the anxiety, just like the joy, the empathy, the confidence and strength. IMO, a complete man (or woman) shares *all* of themselves with a committed intimate partner. Women tell me they do and want that from their men. That's what I'm *hearing*, but I'm not yet seeing *actions* to back up those words. Indeed, if the day *ever* arrives where I sense in a qualifiable or quantifiable way, meaning *actions*, which validates and shows attraction to and for such a perspective in a man, I will report it here. In my lifetime, as of yet, it has not occurred with any single woman. It has occurred with married and attached women who have used my emotional availability as a tampon for what lacks in the marriages, but their *attraction* does not match their *want*. They are still *attracted* to the distant, unavailable man whom they forever pursue. I've seen enough now, at my age, who divorce for other reasons, generally infidelity, and *still* pursue the same type of man. Yes woman want a sensitive man! Of course they do! They want him to be be sensitive to HER fears, anxieties, emotional needs and mood swings etc etc... But otherwise he'd better be a generally confident bada$$ with at least a decent bank account, a stiff upper lip (plus other things) and be the archetypical man. That's just how it is.. hence acceptance. Of course there are rare exceptions.
carhill Posted May 6, 2010 Posted May 6, 2010 I'm simply stating (while I agree with you and it has been my experience as well) that I'm not going to waste my valuable time, energy or love on such women ever again. I cannot tolerate such inequities, especially as a life-long supporter of equality (in work and in life) for women. It's unacceptable. If I die alone, so be it. I bet I'll beat that stereotype too (that single men die younger). LOL. Bye-bye
Mr White Posted May 6, 2010 Posted May 6, 2010 Yes woman want a sensitive man! Of course they do! They want him to be be sensitive to HER fears, anxieties, emotional needs and mood swings etc etc... But otherwise he'd better be a generally confident bada$$ with at least a decent bank account, a stiff upper lip (plus other things) and be the archetypical man. That's just how it is.. hence acceptance. Of course there are rare exceptions. Yeah, this is kind of depressing... I've always felt that you can't ever be completely open with a woman, particularly when it comes to your fears and anxieties - she immediately loses attraction and interest. I generally would not have any issue with that if she'd just break up over this, however the typical pattern is months or years of withdrawal until the i love you but not in love speech . I'm generally okay with the distant, classic guy role, but every once in a while I'm getting a bit sad about why does it have to be that way.
Engadget Posted May 6, 2010 Posted May 6, 2010 I always pick the wrong women. I pick the slightly unstable ones who actually have boyfriends, and then they cheat on their boyfriends and massive drama ensues. This is why I'm remaining celibate for a little bit, as much as I want to meet someone and get laid, I know I'll run into the same women I usually do, and already have. I already have two girls boyfriends angry with me because they want to hang out and talk to me. Le sigh.
Mr White Posted May 6, 2010 Posted May 6, 2010 Now, with this discussion we overstate a little a bit the role of "picking the women" from man's side, simply because it is in fact, not true - women are the ones who choose, men merely display. In that sense, there is very little a man can do (barring turning into a completely different person) to change the odds. The most serious problems arise when the woman is wishy-washy, and the man pursues and she eventually caves in. That's why I'm kind of hopeful for my current relationship - my gf "picked me" - i never saw her profile, and so far we're getting along pretty well, not that I don't have any doubts. And this is also a by-product of my earlier resolution to never, ever "pursue" a woman (beyond polite and nonchalant initial expression of interest). I let her come to me, and barring any major red flags, that could be the best approach so far.
carhill Posted May 6, 2010 Posted May 6, 2010 (edited) Best wishes with your current R. I hope it works out for you. For me, the 'choosing' happens on two levels. First, I choose whom I interact with on more than a superficial level. I make a conscious choice to act on an interest that I feel. Of the potentials I experience, I choose one. That's the first level. Second, if there is mutual choice (which I think is what you're getting at, where the 'women choose' to accept the man's interest), then I choose again, as I get to know the lady better. This choosing is a continuous process, including choosing to marry her. It is a continuity of choice, and can be interrupted or ended at any point, voluntarily or involuntarily (like when getting dumped by the woman). Still it is 'choosing'. Choosing to act on the emotions of love; choosing to have sex; choosing to prioritize that person. This process, IMO, is where I needed, and (some) men need, lessons. Instead of mindlessly berating women for what they are not accepting or are not giving us, accept that they (the ones applicable) are not for us, even though we 'chose' them. This concept was a cornerstone of the MC process, first clarifying what elements of interpersonal relationships were important and essential to each of us, then meshing that information with our unique personality styles, then examining the totality for compatibility. The process wasn't about who was 'wrong' and who was 'right', it was about complimentary and compatible psychologies and emotional and relationship styles. Essentially, I learned that I was, globally, and most specifically with stbx, attracted to (and choosing to act on that attraction) women who were/are incompatible with my essential interpersonal relationship style and psychology. The women weren't/aren't bad, though they were/are incompatible for me. They made a choice too, and surely feel some of the same emotions I do about the dynamic, so I can empathize. Clarify. Understand. Accept. Move on. Get a pre-nup Edited May 6, 2010 by carhill
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