Why is there such a lack of education on how to pick up women?

[espec10001]

Yet if women started dressing more modestly, that'd all change and you'd magically start respecting them and treating them like human beings instead of pieces of meat to be used and discarded? Instead of "incomplete" beings that need your dick inside them to be worth something?

 

Yeah, I'm convinced.

 

And don't assume every man thinks like you.

 

Absolutely. In fact, I would go to say that if women acted more modestly as well then men would respect them more, thus leading to less sex, less teenage pregnancies, less single mothers, and a smaller, more manageable population.

 

But, since you have labeled me a sexist, let me say that it is not man's or woman's fault, but the medium between them.

 

By nature, man is the fire, the hunger, the hunter, the provider. His continuous passions for the world is the fire which women desire. Women by nature are the passive element, they are the nurturers, holders of understanding and the present moment, physical splendor.

 

In nature, the proper medium, these two opposites, aggressive and passive, work together in harmony. Yet, there now exists a...communication barrier between them. And what is this medium causing the confusion, the division?

 

What third party would want this division among men and women?

[Jersey Shortie]

"if...if...if....women....." Men like Espec want to justfy their behavior on fleeting fancies and desires (i.e: "feelings" and "hormones"), and yet have the accute ingnorance to not only hold women accountable for excersizing self-control of their own feelings and hormones above what they expect of men, but also hold women accountable for how grown men *choose* to behave.

 

We can sit here all day and justfy "natural urges" and "primal feelings" and listen to "but I am a man so it's okay" speeches, but it's your choice as a human being how you ultimately treat others. No one makes you do one thing over another. And if wish the world to be a different place while blaming the other gender for how *you* behave, you're more wrapped up in your own selfish indulgences then you are any true commentary about changing the world to make it a better place. What's that terribly over-played qoute by Gandhi..."be the change you wish to see in the world.."

 

Ultimately, each gender is responsible for their own actions. Men want to be respected and they want to be leaders but when asked to be held accountable for their behavior when it comes to women, too many men blame women for how they as grown men decide to act. If women dressed more modestly, men would still treat us like sex objects. Women in Iran dress extreamly modestly and they are also the least respected and sexually repressed. So no, if women dressed more modestly, men wouldn't all the sudden treat women with respect.

[espec10001]

"if...if...if....women....." Men like Espec want to justfy their behavior on fleeting fancies and desires (i.e: "feelings" and "hormones"), and yet have the accute ingnorance to not only hold women accountable for excersizing self-control of their own feelings and hormones above what they expect of men, but also hold women accountable for how grown men *choose* to behave.

 

We can sit here all day and justfy "natural urges" and "primal feelings" and listen to "but I am a man so it's okay" speeches, but it's your choice as a human being how you ultimately treat others. No one makes you do one thing over another. And if wish the world to be a different place while blaming the other gender for how *you* behave, you're more wrapped up in your own selfish indulgences then you are any true commentary about changing the world to make it a better place. What's that terribly over-played qoute by Gandhi..."be the change you wish to see in the world.."

 

Ultimately, each gender is responsible for their own actions. Men want to be respected and they want to be leaders but when asked to be held accountable for their behavior when it comes to women, too many men blame women for how they as grown men decide to act. If women dressed more modestly, men would still treat us like sex objects. Women in Iran dress extreamly modestly and they are also the least respected and sexually repressed. So no, if women dressed more modestly, men wouldn't all the sudden treat women with respect.

 

I love women. I really do probably too much. In fact, there is nothing more on this earth that I love more than women. My passion for women, music, and love runs very deep. I've had many life changing experiences with women, all valuable lessons and without it I wouldn't be who I am today.

[somedude81]

They've got this rabid fear of being "friendzoned", as though being on friendly terms with a woman he's not having sex with takes a man one step away from being gelded.

For a sexually frustrated man, being in the friendzone is torture. It's almost the same thing feeling like your starving while you are working at a restaurant and your not allowed to eat any of the food.

 

It's even worse if the guy is infatuated with the girl. He is happy that he gets to spend time with her but is a little depressed because he knows that it's look but don't touch. Most likely he masturbates and fantasies what it would be like to have sex with her.

 

The rest of your post about liking women and being liked by them (but not in that way) and having fun open conversations with women isn't good enough. It will still land the man in the friendzone and he won't get what he wants.

 

From my life experience, I know that as long as I am sexually frustrated I cannot have just a friendship with a girl. I will want to have sex with her and think about it everyday and I may actually develop feelings for her.

 

The bottom line is that men want sex and the women is pretending that her platonic male friend doesn't want sex.

 

BTW I've had many friendships with women that lasted differing amounts of time, not once have I ever met a girls female friends. When ever we hung out it was always just the two of us? How come the did introduce me with any of their friends? Should I have asked if she had any single friends?

[Kamille]

BTW I've had many friendships with women that lasted differing amounts of time, not once have I ever met a girls female friends. When ever we hung out it was always just the two of us? How come the did introduce me with any of their friends? Should I have asked if she had any single friends?

 

Intriguing... So you never went to parties together or did group activities together?

[Jersey Shortie]

Espec, I don't doubt that you love women. But I also know from your posts that you hold women accouable for ideals that you don't hold other men or even yourself accountable for and that's not right.

[Kamille]

Somedude81, to answer your question more directly:

 

if your friend is clearly not interested in you and has pigeonholed you in the friendzone, by all means, yes, ask her if she could introduce you to some interesting ladies. I never have any qualms about asking my friends to introduce me to potential dates when I'm single.

[sally4sara]

Oh, resorting to name calling? "Stupid animals"? Men should have never given women ANYTHING, and what has been given to you can easily be taken away.

 

Look at a woman's arguement, it always falls down to name calling and them personally insulting you.

 

So start with it, call me names, tell me I'm this or that, come on, personally attack me with venomous words. Tell me I'm sexist, tell me that I'm a pig, a stupid loser with nothing better to do. Come on, I know that's the only thing you can come up with.

 

Oh please. Men didn't give women anything they didn't need to give. Biology has seen to that.

Try to take it away and see what happens. Esp now that women can continue the species without you.

I do not wish to call you any names; you've a right to your views. But I don't think this attitude of women only have what men give them is going to serve you well unless you keep those views to yourself.

 

But maybe, JUST MAYBE, if you stop thinking of our species as being two broken and opposed camps - you might get GIVEN the gift of love.

[phineas]

The bottom line is that men want sex and the women is pretending that her platonic male friend doesn't want sex.

 

BTW I've had many friendships with women that lasted differing amounts of time, not once have I ever met a girls female friends. When ever we hung out it was always just the two of us? How come the did introduce me with any of their friends? Should I have asked if she had any single friends?

 

I stopped being friends with women because of this exact reason over 10 yrs ago.

 

I'll bet these women "friends" also cock-blocked you when you tried to hit on chicks.

 

about half of these women actually wound up jumping my bones when another woman showed romantic interest in me & she was going to loose her "buddy".

 

The other half just really pissed me off with their jealousy & cutting up any woman I talked to. So I ended the "friendship".

[Taramere]

For a sexually frustrated man, being in the friendzone is torture. It's almost the same thing feeling like your starving while you are working at a restaurant and your not allowed to eat any of the food.

 

It's even worse if the guy is infatuated with the girl. He is happy that he gets to spend time with her but is a little depressed because he knows that it's look but don't touch. Most likely he masturbates and fantasies what it would be like to have sex with her.

 

The rest of your post about liking women and being liked by them (but not in that way) and having fun open conversations with women isn't good enough. It will still land the man in the friendzone and he won't get what he wants.

 

Of course you're not guaranteed sex just because a woman likes you and gets along with you. It's more likely, however, that you'll get laid if women like you and find you fun to be around...than if they dislike you and find you awkward to be around.

 

You know how these PUA sites talk about teasing women, negging them etc. Well...teasing banter is fine, but if a man is so awkward around women that he can barely make minimal small talk with them then the chances of him carrying off teasing banter are slim to none.

 

BTW I've had many friendships with women that lasted differing amounts of time, not once have I ever met a girls female friends. When ever we hung out it was always just the two of us? How come the did introduce me with any of their friends? Should I have asked if she had any single friends?

 

I don't think it's a good plan to come right out and ask a female friend "have you got any single friends I could meet." In theory, honesty and directness is laudable...but in practice that could sound a bit desperate. Being approached by a man who's desperate to get laid or lonely and desperate for the companionship a girlfriend would offer isn't flattering. Women want men to approach because "there was just something about you"...and they want men to stick around and talk to them because there's some kind of connection.

 

The PUA stuff teaches men basic pop psychology methods of trying to fake a connection...but unless a man is a seriously good actor, strategic negging and strategic touching is going to feel fake and unnatural. Of course it's fun to be teased and touched as part of flirtation...but if a man is focusing on some kind of strategy then he's going to be trying too hard to control the interaction. Which can prevent a connection from developing. I don't dispute that if a man has never learned how to flirt, there are good pointers in some of the PUA theory...but there seems to be something about that whole PUA scene which fuels exactly the kind of nerdiness that is holding a lot of these guys back.

 

Going back to the "asking a female friend to introduce you to her friends" thing. Again, a bit too desperate. A better plan would be to organise a night out where you bring along some of your friends and she takes along some of hers. Or throw a party and tell her she's welcome to bring friends along "particularly if they're female." There's nothing wrong with letting her know that you're interested in meeting attractive females and would like her to help you...but it's more socially competent to do it in a light-hearted "let's arrange a night out" manner than in a "I need to meet women...please introduce me to your friends" way.

 

Also, quid pro quo. If a male friend of mine were hinting that he wanted to meet women through me, that would be fine - but I'd be expecting some kind of return favour....or at least I'd need to feel as though the guy was a genuine friend as opposed to just some guy who was befriending me in order to get to other women through me. Nobody likes to feel used. You need to be confident that the friendship is a two way street that you contribute to, if you're asking a woman to help you out in that way.

[phineas]

Somedude81, to answer your question more directly:

 

if your friend is clearly not interested in you and has pigeonholed you in the friendzone, by all means, yes, ask her if she could introduce you to some interesting ladies. I never have any qualms about asking my friends to introduce me to potential dates when I'm single.

 

Here is the thing, single women that INSIST on making a single guy their "buddy" do NOT want to share him with someone else.

 

I've experianced it many times & that's why I just stopped being friends with chicks. it wasn't worth the hassle.

 

also, if they found a "totally hot guy" they would forget you "thier good friend" existed.

[somedude81]

Intriguing... So you never went to parties together or did group activities together?

I never had female friends growing up. I didn't know how important they were. Nobody told me that just having guy friends would be a bad thing. I didn't even know how to make female friends till I graduated High School. And even then I don't know if they were actually friends because I was really trying to get them to spend time with me so I could have a chance of sleeping with them. Unfortunately friendships just developed.

 

To put it more bluntly. I've wanted to have sex with every female friend I've ever had. I never got anywhere with any of them nor have I keep in touch with any of them.

 

Somedude81, to answer your question more directly:

 

if your friend is clearly not interested in you and has pigeonholed you in the friendzone, by all means, yes, ask her if she could introduce you to some interesting ladies. I never have any qualms about asking my friends to introduce me to potential dates when I'm single.

OK, I'll try that. Or maybe I shouldn't. I got conflicting answers.

 

Of course you're not guaranteed sex just because a woman likes you and gets along with you. It's more likely, however, that you'll get laid if women like you and find you fun to be around...than if they dislike you and find you awkward to be around.

 

You know how these PUA sites talk about teasing women, negging them etc. Well...teasing banter is fine, but if a man is so awkward around women that he can barely make minimal small talk with them then the chances of him carrying off teasing banter are slim to none.

 

Of course it's fun to be teased and touched as part of flirtation...but if a man is focusing on some kind of strategy then he's going to be trying too hard to control the interaction.

For most of my youth, 13-19, I was terribly awkward around women. I've gotten much better at conversation, teasing, touching etc, but I'm not as good as the guys who've been doing it since they were teenagers.

 

Even then I'm not good enough because I haven't gotten anybody to like me. Also I don't how much fun women have with me verses the other guys who know what they are doing. I definitely don't have a plan of drop neg, tease her, touch shoulder or anything like that.

 

A better plan would be to organise a night out where you bring along some of your friends and she takes along some of hers. Or throw a party and tell her she's welcome to bring friends along "particularly if they're female." There's nothing wrong with letting her know that you're interested in meeting attractive females and would like her to help you...but it's more socially competent to do it in a light-hearted "let's arrange a night out" manner than in a "I need to meet women...please introduce me to your friends" way.

That is a great idea and I wish I could do it. My problem is that I've basically focused on women so much I kicked all men out of my life. I don't have any buddies and I don't remember how to make male friends. Edited May 4, 2010 by somedude81

[Green]

Is there such a lack of education on how to pick up women? I really don't agree with this. The fundumental cliche crap people say is spot on a) be yourself b) be confident, relax and enjoy c) there are plenty of fish in the sea so go on take a chance and if you get rejected move on....

 

This is clichee stuff everyone has heard yet people are not motivated enough.... or just to scared... or what ever to actualy try.

 

Men who do bad with women go through life with out being themselves... with out finding confidence and unable to face rejection.

 

These are the core problems and doing bad with women are just one of the many side effects.

[espec10001]

Oh please. Men didn't give women anything they didn't need to give. Biology has seen to that.

Try to take it away and see what happens. Esp now that women can continue the species without you.

I do not wish to call you any names; you've a right to your views. But I don't think this attitude of women only have what men give them is going to serve you well unless you keep those views to yourself.

 

But maybe, JUST MAYBE, if you stop thinking of our species as being two broken and opposed camps - you might get GIVEN the gift of love.

 

I was trying to be nice then you say women can continue the species without men. What do you mean by this? That we are going to become a species of just women?

[Taramere]

That is a great idea and I wish I could do it. My problem is that I've basically focused on women so much I kicked all men out of my life. I don't have any buddies and I don't remember how to make male friends.

 

Any team sports you've played in the past? If not, maybe you could go to a martial arts class or something like that. Actually, that could be a good plan for meeting women too. I remember going to Tae Kwon Do classes years ago, and being in my element with all the guys buzzing around the place. Often I'd be sparring with a guy, and we'd be chatting eachother up at the same time. Great fun. Even if there aren't any women in the group, it could be a source for new friends.

[Kamille]

Here is the thing, single women that INSIST on making a single guy their "buddy" do NOT want to share him with someone else.

 

I've experianced it many times & that's why I just stopped being friends with chicks. it wasn't worth the hassle.

 

also, if they found a "totally hot guy" they would forget you "thier good friend" existed.

 

I'm not thinking about making every girl your bff. It's more like having buddies that are girls, so on a Thursday evening after work you can call them up and say: "hey, a few friends and I are meeting at the pub for drinks. You should come and feel free to invite friends!"

 

And yes, a lot of women completely forget about all their friends, guy or girl, when they're in the infatuation phase with a new beau. As annoying as I find it, i've been guilty of it myself.

[Stockalone]

Much more eloquent than my ironic rant.

 

I think it's in this thread that I pointed out that when I look around in my environment, the major difference between the men who seem to have it easy and be "naturals" and have women throwing themselves at them and the men who struggle is this: the former tend to have friends who are women while the latter don't.

 

I think men who can be friends with women win out in many ways:

1) they are comfortable with women and usually know how to treat women as individuals and not as a herd.

 

I have no doubt about that. The thing is, what makes some men struggle while others have no problem attracting women and making women feel comfortable around them?

 

I believe that being a "natural" is what gives those men the ability to make female friends with ease. I don't think that talking to women and becoming friends will create this ability in men who don't already have it.

 

I am not even sure that all men can be friends with women (long-term), even if they tried.

 

 

2) Being friends with women increases your chances of meeting their friends. So there's no need to rely solely on cold approaching women in public.

 

Compared to trying to ask out women I already knew, the cold approach worked a lot better.

 

 

so, men, feminize your networks.

 

You do realize, that for some men, this will be impossible to achieve.

 

Don't get me wrong, I do believe that men like myself dig their own graves, but I just don't believe that it is as simple as that. Become friends with a woman (if you can) and your problems will be solved. I guess it can help some guys though, so giving it a try is not the worst idea.

[AD1980]

Of course you're not guaranteed sex just because a woman likes you and gets along with you. It's more likely, however, that you'll get laid if women like you and find you fun to be around...than if they dislike you and find you awkward to be around.

 

You know how these PUA sites talk about teasing women, negging them etc. Well...teasing banter is fine, but if a man is so awkward around women that he can barely make minimal small talk with them then the chances of him carrying off teasing banter are slim to none.

 

 

 

but in practice that could sound a bit desperate. Being approached by a man who's desperate to get laid or lonely and desperate for the companionship a girlfriend would offer isn't flattering. Women want men to approach because "there was just something about you"...

 

I always find it hillarious when women want Men to approach them not becasue they are just physically attracted but becasue they seem something magical inside you without even knowing you:laugh:

 

Im sorry most Men approach women they find physically attractive then see from there how there personality is we arent mind readers we cant tell what a kind fun magical perosn you are by glancing at you

[Kamille]

Yes Stockalone, I do realize it's not as easy as saying : do it and I completely agree that there are obstacles to overcome.

 

 

 

While I don't think it's the only factor, I do think creating opportunities to socialize with more members of the opposite sex is a good idea. One of those ways is to develop a "mixed" social network. Yes, I realize that no one is going to wake up tomorrow morning with a brand new circle of friends.

 

I'm sorry if I made it sound easy. At the same time, people are here asking for advice on how to improve their chances with women and creating mixed social networks is an obvious way for most men to improve their chances.

[carhill]

also, if they found a "totally hot guy" they would forget you "their good friend" existed.

 

Or, IME, the 'good friend' is being used as a tool to secure a male 'target' they've had their eye on. I've even had the 'friends and family' social rub to cement relations and my 'perception' that we were indeed 'friends'.

 

The one commonality throughout the years is that the Hoovers (emotional vampires) never really take a sincere interest (meaning remember details and are proactive) about my life, family, friends, etc. They remain nebulous, though socially gifted and persuasive. I just see through it better now, leaving more energy for and sincere interest in 'picking up' compatible women.

[AD1980]

I have a hard time getting women friends becauae i just dont feel i have allot in common with most women form interests to sense of humor..

 

I get along great with my friends wives/fiances but its more because ive known them for so many years not because of common interests...

[Disillusioned]

So what is going wrong in our society? Whose responsibility is it to teach men how to attract women? Why is it that we teach or kids grammar, math, science, engineering, etc, but we don't teach them something as fundamental as attracting women? What kind of sense does that make? Why do we (women and society) blame men for not knowing how to pick up women when it is something that most men are never taught how to do? Is it expected that men learn this skill naturally, and if they don't it's their fault?

 

Looking forward to your thoughts.

 

It's because different people have different mentalities about the subject. Pickup artists and some men who aren't pickup artists tend to have a grab-bag mentality about women, but divorced men and a few selective men (I'm one) know what they want, and what they don't.

 

So, that's really the problem... totally different mentalities, each one saying that the others are wrong.

[carhill]

I have a hard time getting women friends becauae i just dont feel i have allot in common with most women form interests to sense of humor..

 

IMO, this is a good thing because, if you did have a lot in common with women you would have zero, or near zero, romantic opportunities with them, as a gender. They prefer their girlfriends without penises. BTDT, though not on purpose. It matters not if you are male and have male interests and perspectives; if, and this is during the courtship phase more than any other IME, you show a parallel or mirroring side to your personality, in that you identify with and embrace the woman's interests and/or perspectives, it can serve as your death-knell as a potential romantic parther. If you do this prior to courtship, you never get to courtship. You are the 'brother', forever.

[AD1980]

IMO, this is a good thing because, if you did have a lot in common with women you would have zero, or near zero, romantic opportunities with them, as a gender. They prefer their girlfriends without penises. BTDT, though not on purpose. It matters not if you are male and have male interests and perspectives; if, and this is during the courtship phase more than any other IME, you show a parallel or mirroring side to your personality, in that you identify with and embrace the woman's interests and/or perspectives, it can serve as your death-knell as a potential romantic parther. If you do this prior to courtship, you never get to courtship. You are the 'brother', forever.

 

I think you need some common ground/interests to maintain a relationship,even in cold approaching you need something you both can understand and talk about

[Stockalone]

Yes Stockalone, I do realize it's not as easy as saying : do it and I completely agree that there are obstacles to overcome.

 

I actually do think it can be nearly as easy as that. But the advice needs to fit the person. This isn't a case of one size fits all. And I know you are aware of that, I just thought I should point it out.

 

 

While I don't think it's the only factor, I do think creating opportunities to socialize with more members of the opposite sex is a good idea. One of those ways is to develop a "mixed" social network. Yes, I realize that no one is going to wake up tomorrow morning with a brand new circle of friends.

 

The only time I had a somewhat "mixed" social network was during college.

 

But I am also a loner. I never felt the need to make many friends or acquaintances, so I never made use of (perceived or real) opportunities to meet new friends through existing ones.

 

 

I'm sorry if I made it sound easy. At the same time, people are here asking for advice on how to improve their chances with women and creating mixed social networks is an obvious way for most men to improve their chances.

 

I agree. That said, for guys who usually don't have a mixed social network, wouldn't this be weird?

 

Making female friends to improve their chances to find a relationship sounds wrong. What I mean is, wouldn't people already have a mixed social network if that is how they are wired?