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Is There Something Wrong with American Culture That Makes Dating So Hard?

Don'tWannabeAWannabe

By Don'tWannabeAWannabe
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Disillusioned Established Member

Disillusioned

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This thread is going in so many directions it's starting to get ridiculous. Let me try to stick to just one angle, OK? Bear with me.

 

About 3 weeks ago, I went to a small workshop which is for people who've been divorced and don't want to screw up twice. Even though I've never been married, the things that the hostess wrote on her chalkboard basically backed up the hunches I had about how NOT to find the right person. She should know, she was married once before she divorced and then found the man she loves.

 

One point she made was that the illusion got hard for her to maintain after a while... she realized her independent attitude was scaring men away, and she didn't want to be a lonely old lady, so she learned to just come right out and say what she was looking for in a man.

 

The problem is, the rest of mainstream US still follows unwritten rules which are totally at odds for what worked for that workshop hostess, and totally at odds with logic. Write out a list of the qualities you want in a partner??? Leave alcohol out of the dating process??? Who's she trying to kid? Who besides me and her ever heard of such cockamamie, sensible things?

 

Re the Greek guy thing... I can tell you straight out what the problem is here in the Benighted States, we're either too stupid or too scared to call a spade a spade when it comes to dating. As long as we keep trying to play games, there are going to be zillions of unhappy single men and unhappy single women.

marlena Established Member

marlena

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He talked about how back in Greece, the girls, aside from being very beautiful, are far more welcome and accepting of guys approaching them. He said they're lot friendlier and open, and when you're dating them, not as high maintenance. That, and they're far more open to sex; they give in don't look down on or shame men for wanting to have sex early.

 

 

I can vouch for this. It's true. I myself often wonder why women are so offended when a man politely reaches out to them in the hopes of getting acquainted. I find this very natural and often times flattering. I also see nothing wrong with having sex early if both partners wish to do so. I never could understand why some American girls feel that they have to hold out on sex or why there have to be rules or guidelines to determine relationships. There are no shoulds or not shoulds. I believe each and every encounter is different and should be handled in its very own special way. I don't think any Greek girl would be rude to a man that comes onto her if it's done repectfully and politely. If she weren't interested, she would handle it delicately, never any rudeness or harsh language.

 

I think this is true of many countries in Europe. So, yes, I would say the differences are cultural.

desertmoon Established Member

desertmoon

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Yeah, and if you're on your computer for long enough, it may radiate heat. Like um, a girl.

 

 

:lmao::lmao::lmao:!!!! love this! LOL!

desertmoon Established Member

desertmoon

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If this is the smug, self-righteous, entitled way you come across to women, no wonder you're having trouble finding someone.

 

Let me tell you something, from one guy to another. You deserve NOTHING other than the basic respect a human being owes another. You are not "owed" anything because of your education, your build, your wardrobe, or whatever establishment you deign to hang out in.

 

Yes, you are young. I suggest you have a lot to learn about women before it's all over.

 

Well said and I agree absolutely! What is with this notion that you deserve or are entitled to anything(or anyone) by the mere fact that you have added some stuff to your existence?

marlena Established Member

marlena

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All in all, my experiences in Europe it seems that they have more of a community where people stick together more which in return makes for people being generally nicer. As compared to America, we barely having any community therefore, fueling this hyper-individualization. Again, not everyone is going to be super friendly, as their gonna be rude people everywhere. Male or Female, our problems lie on more grand social problems rather than specific genders.

 

That is my two cents...

 

And a good two cents it is. Your whole post is spot-on. In Europe, there is a strong sense of community, a mutual acceptance of one another, an openess and receptiveness that is very engaging and facilitates interaction on all levels. People are not as socially isolated or fearful of one another. It is very common for people to start conversations at the drop of hat and no one thinks anything of it. It's a different mentality altogether, a more laissez-faire attitude and a more embracing one.

Edited by marlena
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Don'tWannabeAWannabe Established Member

Don'tWannabeAWannabe

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None of that matters as a guy trying to pick up girls on a shallow basis.

 

On a superficial level, women are desired for their looks, and men for their money/power. So, if you are aiming at the top 5% of women looks-wise, you need to be in the top-5% of men money-wise.

 

Are you? No, you already stated you're not, and this is no fault of your own, you're young, well-rounded, and working on your education. You're right where you should be. Of course you're not making 6 figures. But I'm sorry, if you're approaching the situation with an "I deserve a perfect 10" attitude, of course you're not going to find what you're looking for. The super hot 21 year old girls are dating the wealthy, established 30-something guys.

 

What about 18, 19 and 20 year old girls? Like I said once, before I enroll into grad school, I've been dropping in on the courses just to get a feel for it and see what I'm in for, but I got a lot of flak on here for asking for suggestions on meeting girls on campus as a non-student.

 

Like I said, there are always exceptions, but those exceptions are usually not found at bars and clubs, and they, because they aren't shallow, won't see your tan or your Armani Exchange clothing as points in your column.

 

If you want women who value your experiences, education, wit, and worldy-ness more than your income, you need to value theirs more than their perceived physical "beauty."

 

DO YOU GET IT YET???

 

What I don't get is that paradoxical barrier a lot of women put up that block out a lot of guys. Like I said, before you ever speak to a woman, you don't know anything about her. You don't know who she is as a person on the inside. Before you meet, all you have to go by is her looks.

 

Which is why I don't understand women complaining about guys going after women for their looks, when its impossible to initially go by anything else in the first place.

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Don'tWannabeAWannabe Established Member

Don'tWannabeAWannabe

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I can vouch for this. It's true. I myself often wonder why women are so offended when a man politely reaches out to them in the hopes of getting acquainted. I find this very natural and often times flattering. I also see nothing wrong with having sex early if both partners wish to do so. I never could understand why some American girls feel that they have to hold out on sex or why there have to be rules or guidelines to determine relationships. There are no shoulds or not shoulds. I believe each and every encounter is different and should be handled in its very own special way. I don't think any Greek girl would be rude to a man that comes onto her if it's done repectfully and politely. If she weren't interested, she would handle it delicately, never any rudeness or harsh language.

 

I think this is true of many countries in Europe. So, yes, I would say the differences are cultural.

 

This is what I was getting at.

marlena Established Member

marlena

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Which is why I don't understand women complaining about guys going after women for their looks, when its impossible to initially go by anything else in the first place.

 

True. Whether we like it or not, looks play a major role in the beginning. That said, however, one person's taste differs from another. What happens afterwards is a whole different ball game. That's when other things factor in such as personality and character to just mention a couple. Initially though, appearance will be the catalyst.

zebracolors Established Member

zebracolors

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That's not entirely true Shortie. In this society a woman can pick and choose who she wants. Men are left feeling dissatisfied and there in lies the trouble

 

I don't think that is entirely true. :( I was going to tell the man I was crushing on my feelings at some point. But I only regret it a little bit because having him as a friend already is more valuable. However its too late now, because I have been chatting with someone new who genuinely seems interested in me:) And I'm interested in him. :o (will reveal more as it develops later maybe)

 

But there was a time I would have gone after my crush in a heartbeat but I had the feeling he just didn't feel the same as I did. So even if i "chose" him it would not have made a difference.

marlena Established Member

marlena

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Oh, but to add, people don't multi-date here the way they do in America although that is slowly changing because of online dating which is still not all that popular yet. Usually, it goes like this. Two people meet up and if the chemistry is there, a relationship ensues with sex included right from the start.

Sazerac Established Member

Sazerac

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But out of everything, I think the biggest problem we have is hyper-individualization. Everyone is on their own island, stroking their ego which in return makes them super selfish. Everyone at some point is selfish, but it gets to the point here where a lot of people are really rude, stuck up and generally hard to talk to it seems. Not saying other places are perfect and problems exist everywhere, but it becomes difficult to have a conversation with people because we are so separated from each other as a society. It seems people put a un-necessary barrier between each other which it makes it difficult just to talk to someone it seems. Don't get me wrong, I have some great conservations with people from time to time but it seems the only time people want to conserve is when they want something or its business related.

 

All in all, my experiences in Europe it seems that they have more of a community where people stick together more which in return makes for people being generally nicer. As compared to America, we barely having any community therefore, fueling this hyper-individualization. Again, not everyone is going to be super friendly, as their gonna be rude people everywhere. Male or Female, our problems lie on more grand social problems rather than specific genders.

 

That is my two cents...

 

Hyper-individualization <=> Narcissism. Not [necessarily] the personality disorder, but that insular mindset that you are describing that tends to be the direction American society is taking. Part of the reason may be instilled fear from childhood, the "don't talk to strangers" thing that is wise within reason but with helicopter parenting becomes an overprotective dictate that terrifies kids unnecessarily, who later carry that fear into adulthood. Part may also be due to the rise of Internet technologies that keep us more physically separated than prior generations were. Combine this with the trend in the past twenty years of instilling a sense of "specialness" for every child in school and the whole "You can have anything you want" mentality and it's a recipe for general narcissism in society.

Kaplan Established Member

Kaplan

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He talked about how back in Greece' date=' the girls, aside from being very beautiful, are far more welcome and accepting of guys approaching them. He said they're lot friendlier and open, and when you're dating them, not as high maintenance. That, and they're far more open to sex; they give in don't look down on or shame men for wanting to have sex early. [/quote']

 

This comparison makes me respect American women more. Am I the only one who feels that way? And I've always hated the word "prude." I really think the definition of a prude is: "someone who doesn't want to have sex with me." If a girl refuses to have sex with a guy under any circumstance she is labeled as a prude.

Mr White Established Member

Mr White

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This comparison makes me respect American women more. Am I the only one who feels that way? And I've always hated the word "prude." I really think the definition of a prude is: "someone who doesn't want to have sex with me." If a girl refuses to have sex with a guy under any circumstance she is labeled as a prude.

 

No, "prude" means a woman that's 'offended' by the mere presence of flirtatiousness, regardless of the actual prospects for sex. Most guys can take rejection, no problem. But what's happening here is that you are often left feeling like **** for even *thinking* about approaching :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:.

Jersey Shortie Established Member

Jersey Shortie

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Skydiveaddict:

That's not entirely true Shortie. In this society a woman can pick and choose who she wants. Men are left feeling dissatisfied and there in lies the trouble

 

 

Skydive, I've read your posts and I think your a good guy but this sentence smacks of lack of accountability. Basically, you have issue with all the choices you think women have over you. And I am here to tell you, that's not the case. Unless you are a super hot girl, women get rejected. Women deal with relationship issues and meeting men issues just like men do. We get rejected too. :eek: I do not understand this mentality that fosters pictures of women sitting on red velvet thrones while men line up before her and she picks one out like picking a tasty peach from a tree and he just goes to her no questions asked. In society, men can also pick and choose who they want and they often do. And sorry but no, men are not the ONLY ones left dissatisfied. I fully understand that men go through dating issues and the burden of approaching and want not is on men. But I sincerely hate this attitude that men are the only ones that incounter issues in dating and relating. It smacks of having no thoughts to what women deal with as well.

 

 

Don’tWannabeAwannabe:

The thing is, I'm NOT a regular guy. Not to brag, but I'm slim and in shape, I'm tan, I own a decent wardrobe that actually fits (a lot of people have told me that before they heard me speak, they assumed I was European simply for the way I dress) I'm educated and informed on current events (I read the NYT and the Atlantic every day) I've traveled around the world (studied abroad a few times) I like to hang out in upscale establishments. I'm musically talented, and though I'm not wildly successful, I have a solid and promising career while I know a lot of guys my age are having trouble finding even a part time job. I'm even going to grad school.

 

I'm young, but I've really accomplished a lot and really do my best to better myself all the time, so I know I deserve someone who's beautiful.

 

All those tangibles that you listed really don't matter. None of the things you listed say anything about the kind of guy you are. They just say something about the things you like. And there is something icky about an attitude someone has when they say "I deserve.." Truth is, no one on planet earth deserves anything. Perhaps your air of entitlement that turn women off.

 

Mattock, excellent post. Truly. I totally agreed with it.

espec10001 Established Member

espec10001

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This war between the sexes will not last forever. America is undergoing a scheduled, routine change right now. It is long over-due. Men and women were meant to live in harmony with each other, utilizing the natural gifts that God has given them. We have lost our way.

 

The Will of men and the Understanding of women, well they go together like peas in a pod, as they have throughout human history! One cannot exist without the other.

 

Every man and every woman is a Star with their own proper course and proper motion. And sometimes Stars come together to make a bigger Star.

 

Love is the Law.

Mattock5656 Established Member

Mattock5656

Posted
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And a good two cents it is. Your whole post is spot-on. In Europe, there is a strong sense of community, a mutual acceptance of one another, an openess and receptiveness that is very engaging and facilitates interaction on all levels. People are not as socially isolated or fearful of one another. It is very common for people to start conversations at the drop of hat and no one thinks anything of it. It's a different mentality altogether, a more laissez-faire attitude and a more embracing one.

 

Indeed, I was a little worried that someone wouldn't see where I was coming from hehe. This would fix a lot of problems in society if we see each a group instead of each us sitting on our own island defending the unknown. (Which in many cases is us) As Stephaine Coontz puts it, our community is skeletonally thin and when problems tend to arise in our society we tend to blame ourselves as individuals or certain groups or a specific gender. Sometimes the problem does lie in us, our in a certain group but for the most part our problems lie at grand social problems such as lack of community, overly-competitive system, obsessive consumption, overworked, in which vivifies our problems. I think if we realize this, then we can somewhat shift the blame away from ourselves and spend time fixing the problem at hand.

 

Good post Marlena, Cheers from Greece...Btw, my family is from Germany and its great. =)

Mattock5656 Established Member

Mattock5656

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Hyper-individualization <=> Narcissism. Not [necessarily] the personality disorder, but that insular mindset that you are describing that tends to be the direction American society is taking. Part of the reason may be instilled fear from childhood, the "don't talk to strangers" thing that is wise within reason but with helicopter parenting becomes an overprotective dictate that terrifies kids unnecessarily, who later carry that fear into adulthood. Part may also be due to the rise of Internet technologies that keep us more physically separated than prior generations were. Combine this with the trend in the past twenty years of instilling a sense of "specialness" for every child in school and the whole "You can have anything you want" mentality and it's a recipe for general narcissism in society.

 

You raise some good points man. Narcissism literally fuels our society on top of jealousy. People want what other people have and it becomes a brutal arena where people fight amongst each and fuels it even further. How kids are brought up here is generally twisted as most of it involves instituting all these values into them including massive consumption, laziness, lack of devotion towards school, etc etc. Also, you mentioned "specialness" between kids and this is a huge point. George Carlin mentioned that kids do not know how to fail, and when the time comes that we fail in our life's, we don't know what to do and do worse things to ourselves then needed.

 

You mentioned how we moved mostly to online for everything, and this where I don't understand "Online dating". Oh course, it has it's advantages, but if we had a solid community and if we took down this barrier of just basic socialization between each other then we would all laugh at online dating and not take it as seriously lol.

 

Excellent post man....

Disillusioned Established Member

Disillusioned

Posted
Posted
This war between the sexes will not last forever. America is undergoing a scheduled, routine change right now. It is long over-due. Men and women were meant to live in harmony with each other, utilizing the natural gifts that God has given them. We have lost our way.

 

The bad news is... based on the way I've seen us behave, most of us would rather go down with the ship than change. In the Battle Of the Sexes, most of us are going to opt for Mutually Assured Destruction (which is just what it sounds like). There will be millions of bad-tempered little old ladies filling our nursing homes, and millions of little old men buying Realdolls or importing foreign women. This is called mission accomplished.

Mr White Established Member

Mr White

Posted
Posted
And a good two cents it is. Your whole post is spot-on. In Europe, there is a strong sense of community, a mutual acceptance of one another, an openess and receptiveness that is very engaging and facilitates interaction on all levels. People are not as socially isolated or fearful of one another. It is very common for people to start conversations at the drop of hat and no one thinks anything of it. It's a different mentality altogether, a more laissez-faire attitude and a more embracing one.

 

The US is still at a stage where people would gladly vote against their own interests, only to avoid doing something collectively.

 

The social environment in general in the US is way more hostile. The very first thing that impressed me upon moving to the US a decade ago was how very segregated (especially by income and race) everything is (it certainly happens in Europe, but here I perceive it as an extreme form of segregation).

 

Dating is probably just one aspect of this cultural aspect, but also one of the most notable - rigid, structured interactions, and you can easily get odd looks, or worse - screams or disrespect just for trying to hold a polite conversation.:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Mr White Established Member

Mr White

Posted
Posted
This war between the sexes will not last forever. America is undergoing a scheduled, routine change right now. It is long over-due. Men and women were meant to live in harmony with each other, utilizing the natural gifts that God has given them. We have lost our way.

 

The Will of men and the Understanding of women, well they go together like peas in a pod, as they have throughout human history! One cannot exist without the other.

 

Every man and every woman is a Star with their own proper course and proper motion. And sometimes Stars come together to make a bigger Star.

 

Love is the Law.

 

 

I wish I could have your optimism:eek:. Hopefully Churchill will be rignt once again --> "Americans will usually do the right thing - after they have exhausted all other possibilities" :lmao:

bac Established Member

bac

Posted
Posted

It is not true that foreign chicks are easy and happy to do ONSs at bars and clubs. All chicks around the world are programmed the same. They perhaps do stupied things when they are testing reality when they are young and have no experience. Therefore, they have a few ONSs or FWB, but after that, most girls certainly know how it is wrong for them.

 

Most girls are not programmed by nature to be sluts and sleep for sex with as many as possible men. That is why sexes are called the opposite sexes. Most girls are programmed by nature/their hormones look for a special guy for love, emotional connection, marriage and kids making. That is why it feels wrong for them to do ONSs at bars. Sure, that before they find a suitable guy they might find several wrong guys who will use them for sex. But, those wrong guys for sex are just mistakes to regret, the guys are not what the majority of girls really looking for.

janie423 Established Member

janie423

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You left out one art Phineas. He's just not the "hot" guy that all the "hot" chicks want.

 

I have no doubt in my mind that there are many differences between cultures. Especially in dating. If foreign women are more open, perhaps foreign men treat them in a way that lets foreign women feel more open? I don't really know. I do know that it is never a question of American women being bitches, prudes and so forth and American men all bein wonderful sweet human beings who never did a girl wrong. And it's certainly not about the fact that foreigners don't face normal male/female issues just as we do here in America.

 

So you and the Greek guy either got shot down too much or had no oppurtunity to meet a nice girl. That's all this post really tells us. It doesn't say anything *real* or *true* about American men, women or foreign men and women.

 

agree with this post . . .

 

and I would add that when American men stop rewarding a woman for withholding sex and condemning a woman for having sex "too early" then the "prudes" the OP has issue could possibly vanish . . . most women have learned their behavior as a result of bitter experiences with men.

tincanman99 Established Member

tincanman99

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In my experience American culture is more insular than European culture. By that I mean people on the whole dont socialize with each other. Unless you live in a city you dont regularly interact with a lot of people because you are in your car or your house. You can literally interact with no one if you try.

 

Example: you get up and go to work in your car, at work you sit in a cube by yourself, you go home in your car, maybe stop at the supermarket and than go home again.

 

On top of this there is a raging hysterical fear in the US of strangers that is instilled very young. You are encouarged NOT to socialize because they may be bad people. Are there really that many bad people or has it been greatly over blown? That I dont know.

 

In Europe most people know all the people where they live and they know the people in the local stores. They take mass transit most of the time. Its just a different way of living.

Lakeside_runner Established Member

Lakeside_runner

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Posted

In Europe most people know all the people where they live and they know the people in the local stores. They take mass transit most of the time. Its just a different way of living.

 

OK, sooo... I actually grew up in Europe (spent there 24 years of my life, came to the US 5 years ago) thus I feel competent to comment on that.

 

I agree to some extent with what you wrote above. However the difference is: if you want to interact with people in the US it is much easier to do so on a semi-deep level. By that I mean - yes in Europe people interact with each other on the bus to work or in local stores etc. but these are 2-3-5 minutes encounters and mostly restricted to small talk, nothing more. In the US, I find it easier to go one level higher. I'm a member of multiple sports groups (running, swimming etc.) and found these less socially strict here than in Europe. I think, in the US, it is harder to go a level above that and build a genuine friendship with someone. That did not prevent me though from finding people here whom I consider to be better friends than I've ever had back in Europe.

 

People have sometimes this idyllic picture of Europe perceived as small villages with butcher shops or bakeries etc. in reality it is really not so much different.

Yo-Yo Member

Yo-Yo

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Posted

It comes down to one thing and one thing only.....

 

SUPERFICIALITY.

 

American girls, and, in my experience living in Hawaii for 4 years, Asian girls, like to play games, test a guy, and judge based on completely meaningless "attributes"....

 

European girls are generally better-raised, better-educated, more cultured (even if they're punks, they still know classic literature and philosophy).

 

I don't play games. I am completely honest, and I'm a nice guy with a backbone. I'm not a wimp, but I prefer to spread realness and love rather than show people I can choke a bitch.... (Dave Chappelle reference...Cool your jets hehe)

 

European girls love this because then there is mad sex/dating with the option of carrying it further....They also seem not to take kindness for weakness....

 

Now, I'm only going on my experiences, but I've had a lot of them. Mad success in Europe, mild success in the mainland USA, and absolute failure in Hawaii....

 

American/Asian girls are spoiled and play the "I got a vagina, you aint get nunna this" game too much...

 

Ever wonder why so many idiot kids are being born to idiot parents in the USA? It's the criteria women use to choose their mates...Why don't they just flat-out go into the jungle a screw a monkey? There are alphas there too...

 

Like I said before, I'm hardly a "loser" or a "wimp", but the chicks who like head games, tattoos, and pole dancing are generally not interested in me once they get past my looks...And I generally meet those types in the USA...

 

If you don't wanna admit it, then just ask me why I support terrorism and hate America...Then scream "But what about the CHILDREN?!" See you at the tea party rally....

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