Maybe porn really does more harm than good for men?

[silic0ntoad]

Sorry but I don't agree with your "shrug your shoulders, oh well" attitude. Maybe it's because I am a woman and I don't like seeing women degraded. I've realized over the years that a lot of men don't have an issue with women being degraded for their visual pleasure as long as it's not men being degraded. Or don't have any issue with certain ideals and stereotypes being protrayed about women as long as a man has a visual media to masturbate too.

 

Truth remains, if a boy has been viewing porn since he was 11, and most are because that's the average age a boy starts looking at porin, growing up in all those formative years viewing porn, it's going to have a lasting affect on how a boy views women and sex. And these boys turn into men.

 

In the meantime, lets keep telling ourselves it's okay to show degrading material about women that stereotypes them as long as parents give the token talk to boys about how porn isn't *real* even though alot of men sure do wish it was. How often do you even think that honestly happens? Maybe once if a kid is lucky and even then it's probably jsut the standard: "porn isn't real. now go outside and play".

 

While we are out it, lets ignore the fact that porn today is much more abudent then ever before, much more hardcore. And boys today honestly do view it more then previous generations because more of it is more easily available. Lets also forget the fact that with porn, you don't actually even have to leave the house to get it or even pay for it. You do when it comes to drinking, smoking or drugs. And while drinking and smoking and drugs are dangerous things, they don't set up ideas about one gender pertaining to sex and how you treat and view the other gender.

 

But hey, don't address any of those points. Instead, preach about the Leave It To Beaver fix and have a good ole talk with the boys, that will teach them. Even though porn has become an esculating main character in society and is ever growing. But a good ole talk should fix the multi billion dollar business that is porn and will teach boys that women are to be respected and don't have boobs that stand up straight even though daddy sure doesn't mind seeing the 18 year old school girl get banged from behind.

 

 

 

Stockalone, did you even read the part I said above that you orginally qouted? I never said I had to endure being demeaned or that I needed relationship advice. And I never said that every one feels demeaned by the same thing. What I did say was that I've been with enough men that have tried porno like moves and thought that it was great. And alot of other women have expressed the same experiences with growing frustation. Where are these guys getting these ideas? Why didn't the talk you lameinate on teach them not to act this way? Apparently men don't consider porn "just fantasy" because they pick up on things and bring them in the bedroom. And even if they do consider it "just fantasy", lets be honest about what porn says about how men think and feel about women. My experinces wasn't just a one time occurance. And I know alot of other women have experiences something similar. This is a truth that you don't want to be honest about. Your ideal that men aren't affected by porn or that a good ole boy talk fixes everything is not exactly the truth.

 

Stockalone: I am not into shaving my private parts and I am also not interested in anal play. Watching porn hasn't made me like these or some other things.[/QUOTE]

 

That doesn't change the fact that men get ideas from porn on what to engage in sexually. Some men even brag that they get ideas from porn on how to treat their partner.

 

 

 

Do men stop to think if something in porn is what women want? Or how women really want to be viewed and treated?

 

I do think porn is a good reflection on how men *really* see women in the deepest places.

 

And no, it's not that I think men are so mindless. I do think men have a huge weakness when it comes to porn and that men even try to deny this to themselves because they don't want to admit their own dependency on something they've been viewing since they were very young. I also think men don't want to admit that something like that can infact have considerable sway with them. I also think porn is both what someone might naturally like, and a media driven industry that pushes the limits that give negative ideals, mostly about women. many people here have said that porn is probably why shaving a a girl bare became so popular. Wheather you want to admit it, men do get and hold certain expectations about women from porn.

 

 

 

We certainly are but women don't have a multi-billion dollard industry that mostly caters to them, that they are masturbating to, that degrades men, calls them names, puts them in demeaning positions and uses them and tosses them for the next newer and exciting piece.

 

 

 

I think men have love and desire for women. Respect? I don't know anymore. I don't think men really respect women. At face value maybe, but underneath it all, it seems that alot of men just think wome nare good for sex and the quality of their bodies and that even if he has a great wife and kids, he is still going to sneak off to watch the 18 year old get bent over the desk. But how in the world do men expect women to think they have respect for us when men defend and cater to an industry like porn that is pretty demeaning to women? I really don't get it. Sure, men love and respect women! I guess calling a woman a slut and smacking her ass and tossing her aside for the next new girl is loving and respectful.

 

 

JS, do you read what you write? If you're not misandristic, IDK who is! You've just labelled every man a woman using, self gratifying slut who wants to degrade women in all manners sexual, only for his pleasure.

 

You are deranged if you think ALL men are like that.

 

And again, and this time, I really do insist, where's your proof? Because alot of us here are getting sick and tired of the same bible belt preacher bullsh*t without any type of evidence to back up your outrageous claims of manly degredation.

 

Do you, even for a second, think any woman who walks into the porn industry isn't expecting to do things sexually that are both fantastic and abnormal? Do you for a second think that they aren't into it for the money!

 

Let's be honest here, just to grind your gears a bit, but if women weren't so money hungry, porn wouldn't exist, because guess what?

 

WOMEN are saying sex has a price tag, JS. They get paid to get laid.

 

You need a serious dose of reality, sugar.

[Jersey Shortie]

Show me one sentence in any of my post that labels every man a woman-using, self gratifying slut who wants to degrade women. You can't. All you can do is make this kind of broad baseless statement and *attempt* to apply to something I said. Show me in my post where I question how *many* men respect women based on their enjoyment, invovlement and defending of porn? Something that overall is more degrading, stereotyping and objectifying to women then not. But yes, pray continue to ignore those points and keep making ones that are completely false.

 

 

Do you, even for a second, think any woman who walks into the porn industry isn't expecting to do things sexually that are both fantastic and abnormal? Do you for a second think that they aren't into it for the money!

 

Huh?? This makes no sense in regard to anything I've previously said so I don't even understand what you want me to answer in regards to it.

 

Let's be honest here, just to grind your gears a bit, but if women weren't so money hungry, porn wouldn't exist, because guess what?

 

WOMEN are saying sex has a price tag, JS. They get paid to get laid.

 

You need a serious dose of reality, sugar.

 

Yeap, sex as a price tag. For some women. Did I deny that? Nope.

 

But most women, the ones everyday on the street; the moms, daughters, sisters, aunts, grandmothers etc etc etc, are not taking money for sex. They are not saying that sex has a price tag. Women in the industry do think sex has a price tag. But what does that have to do with all the women at home in relationships with men they love that are selling themselves for sex? And what does it say about men? Not men in the industry though. Men that are fathers, husbands, brothers, son's, who pay for, or aid in looking at pornography or pay to go to strip clubs.... It's interesting that you want to make the point that women see sex with a price tag when what you are pulling from is a very limited and specefic targeted pool, (ie pornstars). And it's funny that you don't make the connection that everyday men are 10x more willing to pay for sex then every day women are willing to be paid for it. Yes, lets talk about who needs a serious dose of reality Muffin Sweet.

[A O]

Show me one sentence in any of my post that labels every man a woman-using, self gratifying slut who wants to degrade women. You can't.

Oh, this game again. He doesn't need to. He gets it, I get it, we all get it. We all get the hate!!

 

All you can do is make this kind of broad baseless statement and *attempt* to apply to something I said.

Pot meet kettle.

 

But yes, pray continue to ignore those points and keep making ones that are completely false.

There is nothing degrading about porn. Absolutely nothing! And how do I know this? Simple, I take what I know to be true and extrapolate that to be true for all. Now, is that particularly accurate - of course not. But accuracy has never been a strong part of your game either.

 

But most women, the ones everyday on the street; the moms, daughters, sisters, aunts, grandmothers etc etc etc, are not taking money for sex.

And so you tar the fathers, brothers, uncles, grandfathers of this world with enough venom for them to turn around and go - 'oh stuff em all, if that's how they think about me/us - then fark them all'. That's the attitude - your attitude, your approach, instills in men Jersey. Thankfully, there's not a lot of people like you out there. Thankfully, most men already know how to treat women, treat people with respect. Not that we'd ever know it with your endless rants.

 

.

[dreamingoftigers]

Oh, this game again. He doesn't need to. He gets it, I get it, we all get it. We all get the hate!!

 

Pot meet kettle.

 

There is nothing degrading about porn. Absolutely nothing! And how do I know this? Simple, I take what I know to be true and extrapolate that to be true for all. Now, is that particularly accurate - of course not. But accuracy has never been a strong part of your game either.

 

And so you tar the fathers, brothers, uncles, grandfathers of this world with enough venom for them to turn around and go - 'oh stuff em all, if that's how they think about me/us - then fark them all'. That's the attitude - your attitude, your approach, instills in men Jersey. Thankfully, there's not a lot of people like you out there. Thankfully, most men already know how to treat women, treat people with respect. Not that we'd ever know it with your endless rants.

 

.

 

I honestly don't know why you guys keep claiming that she hates all men. In fact I saw on another thread that it "warmed her heart" there was a group of guys that didn't look at porn and were trying to focus on their relationships.

 

JS has claimed over and over again that she does not like porn and thinks that it affects men's attitude toward women. I have found very few people in general that I have talked to (pre- finding out about my husband) that really dispute this. In fact I think that it is odd that it is even disputed. Do you guy really think that porn doesn't affect a man's relationship or sex with his SO whether positively or negatively?

 

Do you really think that expectations for women sexually have not changed since the internet access to porn became so easy?

 

I am actually curious, do you think that this is really the case?

 

JS has repeatedly said she finds it degrading, and that she doesn't like what it has done in her sex life. I can say that I agree on both points.

 

What is it that she has actually said that you find so offensive? Can you quote it and put it in bold because I am curious why she is constantly being labelled a misandrist.

 

I am not being sarcastic, I actually wish to see the offensive writing and what you guys draw from it.

[A O]

I honestly don't know why you guys keep claiming that she hates all men.

Most people are pretty good at reading between the lines. There are posters here that everyone gets where they're coming from even if those posters rarely talk specifics. JS is such a poster.

 

JS has claimed over and over again that she does not like porn and thinks that it affects men's attitude toward women.

Oh, if it were all just this simple. Unfortunately, porn affects Jersey's attitude towards men every bit as much as it does to the few men that are affected, in a negative manner, towards this subject.

 

I have found very few people in general that I have talked to (pre- finding out about my husband) that really dispute this.

And I'd highly doubt that you'd find a single poster here who wouldn't disgaree. Its not in dispute, it never has been. The problem is one of degree - how many men does porn really affect in a negative manner? According to Jersey, its anyone who uses it. There are no qualifiers in Jerseys assertions - she tars all men with her beliefs and that is primarily why she's viewed as a man-hater.

 

Do you guy really think that porn doesn't affect a man's relationship or sex with his SO whether positively or negatively?

It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter anywhere near as much as "you" having the ability to deal with this or any given situation to your satisfaction.

 

Do you really think that expectations for women sexually have not changed since the internet access to porn became so easy?

Carrying on from just above - dictate your own terms, set your own boundaries. No need to play victim.

 

What is it that she has actually said that you find so offensive? Can you quote it and put it in bold because I am curious why she is constantly being labelled a misandrist. I am not being sarcastic, I actually wish to see the offensive writing and what you guys draw from it.

Some men won't ever understand, some women won't ever understand. A zillion quotes wouldn't change a damn thing for either.

 

 

.

[dreamingoftigers]

Most people are pretty good at reading between the lines. There are posters here that everyone gets where they're coming from even if those posters rarely talk specifics. JS is such a poster.

 

Reading between the lines is an assumption. I try not to assume very much on a form of media that can easily be misinterpreted.

 

Oh, if it were all just this simple. Unfortunately, porn affects Jersey's attitude towards men every bit as much as it does to the few men that are affected, in a negative manner, towards this subject.

 

I asked for quotes or lines because this seems like a statement that hasn't been backed up. I am not even defending her, I am just saying I don't see what you see.

 

And I'd highly doubt that you'd find a single poster here who wouldn't disgaree. Its not in dispute, it never has been. The problem is one of degree - how many men does porn really affect in a negative manner? According to Jersey, its anyone who uses it. There are no qualifiers in Jerseys assertions - she tars all men with her beliefs and that is primarily why she's viewed as a man-hater.

 

She may have tarred all men who use porn, but that doesn't mean she hates your gender, that would mean she despises that many of your gender partake in something she views as disturbing IMHO.

 

It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter anywhere near as much as "you" having the ability to deal with this or any given situation to your satisfaction.

 

I found that I wasn't given much of a choice and it seems that according to the "all men do it" camp that women have very little choice other than to not have relationships if that were absolutely the case.

 

If all men physically cheated, would that make their behaviour acceptable?

 

Carrying on from just above - dictate your own terms, set your own boundaries. No need to play victim.

 

Unfortunately in my personal experience, I find it very hard to have a fulfilling sex life with someone that partakes in pornography because it actually changes their performance in the bedroom regardless of the requests made. I had one ex who did not view porn and he was the only one that seemed to have an actual untarnished sexuality. He found ways that actually pleasured from the results I gave instead of the things he had seen or done before.

 

Some men won't ever understand, some women won't ever understand. A zillion quotes wouldn't change a damn thing for either.

 

I think some quotes may help me to see where you are coming from, that's why I asked for them.

 

.

 

 

check out the above in bold for my responses

[Woggle]

Despite our differences I do not see JS as a full blown midandrist but she does have a narrow view of men and her narrow view of porn get's annoying as well. There is a world of difference between a single man who pleasures himself while looking at a Playboy and a married man who is addicted to internet porn. This idea that there is this epidemic of porn addicts and that is soley to blame for all problems between men and women is vastly simplifying things.

[Jersey Shortie]

I will repeat it again because this statement gets consistantly ignored. I find it so very ironic that people want to label me as a man-hater because I question a multi-billion dollar media franchise and the majority of the population that enjoys it; that degrades, objectifies and stereotypes women. Men can sit there and jack off to videos that label women in four letter terms, shows women taking come in the face, or being dick-smacked or gagged and that means men respect women and truly love them. But if I question how men really feel and think of women based on these images that men enjoy seeing women in, it means I hate men. I think closer to the truth is that unfortunetly, the men that take offense to my porn comments, identify themselves closely to pornography. They could be watching Coed B*tches Volume A Billion and they love women and respect them but I dare question how men really think and feel about women and I'm labeled becaus they don't want to deal with the possible ramifications of what I am putting down.

 

AO

Oh, this game again. He doesn't need to.

 

There is no game AO. If you are going to accuse a person of certain ideaologies then be prepared to show where you got those ideaologies from. What's so hard about that? Time and time again a few of you label me and time and time again I ask you to back those comments up and you can't come up with anything.

 

 

There is nothing degrading about porn. Absolutely nothing! And how do I know this? Simple, I take what I know to be true and extrapolate that to be true for all. Now, is that particularly accurate - of course not. But accuracy has never been a strong part of your game either.

 

We all take what we *know* to be true to justify our opinions. Mix in personal experiences, emotional reponses and cultural references, and you can see why so many people have varied opinions about what they think is factually true. Your above post holds no meaning because it's all speculation and personal attacks trying to degenerate my opinion by snidely commenting on what *you* think is my lack of accuracy.

 

And so you tar the fathers, brothers, uncles, grandfathers of this world with enough venom for them to turn around and go - 'oh stuff em all, if that's how they think about me/us - then fark them all'. That's the attitude - your attitude, your approach, instills in men Jersey. Thankfully, there's not a lot of people like you out there. Thankfully, most men already know how to treat women, treat people with respect. Not that we'd ever know it with your endless rants.

 

Where did I tar fathers, brothers or uncles? Other then to say that these men view porn. A medium not known to treat women very nicely. How many dad's want to see their litlte girl become a porn star? How many men call women in porn "sluts" and look down on them while they take pleasure from them?

 

As for what most people know or how they know how to treat others, I don't see a world filled with respectful men or women. And I see alot of confusion from men about how to treat women and alot of frustration from women about how they get treated.

 

 

Oh, if it were all just this simple. Unfortunately, porn affects Jersey's attitude towards men every bit as much as it does to the few men that are affected, in a negative manner, towards this subject.

 

Porn does affect my attitude about men. Why? Because porn stereotypes, degrades and objectifies women. And it hurts as a woman to see those stereoty[es reflected in porn and to realize that plenty of men get alot of pleasure from the way women are projected in porn.

 

 

The problem is one of degree - how many men does porn really affect in a negative manner? According to Jersey, its anyone who uses it. There are no qualifiers in Jerseys assertions - she tars all men with her beliefs and that is primarily why she's viewed as a man-hater.

 

It's these kind of statements that really negate your points and credibility AO. I never denied there weren't degrees. That doesn't mean that I don't understand that if a man has been veiwing something since his formative years, porn is going to have some affect. We see it all the time. Porn are not unaffected by porn. Look at the amount of men that defend it, that need to use with regularity. Holy crap, if these guys that defended porn defended real women like this...mind blogging. Do I think that affect that porn has is positive? Not overly because porn is selfish utlimately and showcases nothing about what women really are or enjoy. It showcases a 12 year old boy's immature wet dream. And you have grown men that are so dependent on it, it's mind bloggling. You also don't want to be hoenst about the fact that porn is so much more out there and avaible today then in any other point in history. It comes right into the home completely annomous. And I fear that more and more men are subbcumbing to a weakness then over coming it. And it's going to affect them, their relationships with women, and sadly women too because women love men. Too many guys here want to deny the honesty in the fact that porn has become an increasing problem amoung men. It's alos one that is easiliy keep hidden. I doubt nay of you know the real porn habits of your buddies.

[A O]

Reading between the lines is an assumption. I try not to assume very much on a form of media that can easily be misinterpreted.

Reading between the lines is a little further up the food chain than making assumptions. The more information we have, the more dots we get to connect, the clearer the picture becomes. I get that you have a problem with porn, that's me reading between the lines irrespective of whether you've actually said as much. Now, if I were to say - you've always had a problem with porn - then that's me making an assumption.

 

I asked for quotes or lines because this seems like a statement that hasn't been backed up. I am not even defending her, I am just saying I don't see what you see.

Of course you're not seeing it, it doesn't affect you that's why. There are men out there who can't believe that porn is a problem to some women. And they think this way simply because it doesn't affect them. Same deal for them is the same deal for you.

 

She may have tarred all men who use porn, but that doesn't mean she hates your gender, that would mean she despises that many of your gender partake in something she views as disturbing IMHO.

She hates men all right, make no bones about that. You couldn't help but hate men with the views that she possesses. Porn means degradation to her, men view porn, therefore men purposely support the degradation of women. That's one of her many stances. There are no qualifiers here, no wiggle room to suggest that she can distinguish between good and not-so-good men, degradation and mutual enjoyment. It's all the same to her. And that's the difference between a hater and someone with a beef towards a particular subject - one can keep things in context and one can't.

 

I found that I wasn't given much of a choice and it seems that according to the "all men do it" camp that women have very little choice other than to not have relationships if that were absolutely the case.

Again, this all comes back to one's upbringing. If you've been brought up in a healthy, functional environment then you'd know without doubt that you have a choice. You'd know this because you would have seen it, if not had it - the ability to treat people well and be treated well - drummed into you. If you've not experienced this before, then I can safely say that porn would be just one of 'many' problem areas in your life.

 

 

.

[A O]

I will repeat it again because this statement gets consistantly ignored. I find it so very ironic that people want to label me as a man-hater because I question a multi-billion dollar media franchise

Lets compare apples to apples shall we. Your behavior relative to other posters is whats in question here. Many posters can question a particular field without castigating all those within it. They can and do target those that rightly deserve it. Some, like you simply can't That's all there is to it.

 

If you are going to accuse a person of certain ideaologies then be prepared to show where you got those ideaologies from. What's so hard about that?

Pretty rich coming from someone who rarely - if ever - backs up her own assertions. One day, however, I'll get off my lazy arse and sift through all our communiques, including many that date back to your AskMen days, and serve up what is obvious to most folk already.

 

Your above post holds no meaning because it's all speculation and personal attacks trying to degenerate my opinion by snidely commenting on what *you* think is my lack of accuracy.

My post is a very accurate observation of your behavior. You take a few grains of truth and spin it into an entire desert. You make all sorts of outlandish assertions based not on accuracy, but on the lowest common denominator.

 

Where did I tar fathers, brothers or uncles?

Where, whenever you use the term 'men' without any sort of qualifier. When you assert something along the lines of - " men don't care".......then you tar us all.

 

As for what most people know or how they know how to treat others, I don't see a world filled with respectful men or women. And I see alot of confusion from men about how to treat women and alot of frustration from women about how they get treated.

Understandable. You and the likes of Woggle live in similar worlds. Worlds where you've rarely, if ever, experienced healthy relationships or healthy role models (especially of the opposite sex). So you take what you see and think that that's true for all, and you think this because you don't have anything else to go on. Its unfortunate but not an insurmountable circumstance to overcome by any means. You've just got to want to change because the world sure as heck isn't going to change for you.

 

I never denied there weren't degrees.

Its not about denial. You can't deny what you've never shown an inclination towards (degree). And as long as you believe that porn is degrading to women then you never will.

 

Oh, and lets not confuse this with the fact that some porn "is" degrading to women and that most men understand this fact. That's not at issue here, nor is the degree (arguably, it might be more than 'some' porn for instance). What is at issue here is your lack of qualifiers, your lack of degree. And I can only guesstimate that to admit to as much is to weaken your argument in your eyes. Can't think of any other reasons (other than sheer hatred) but hey, you might surprise me!

 

 

.

[dreamingoftigers]

Lets compare apples to apples shall we. Your behavior relative to other posters is whats in question here. Many posters can question a particular field without castigating all those within it. They can and do target those that rightly deserve it. Some, like you simply can't That's all there is to it.

 

Pretty rich coming from someone who rarely - if ever - backs up her own assertions. One day, however, I'll get off my lazy arse and sift through all our communiques, including many that date back to your AskMen days, and serve up what is obvious to most folk already.

 

My post is a very accurate observation of your behavior. You take a few grains of truth and spin it into an entire desert. You make all sorts of outlandish assertions based not on accuracy, but on the lowest common denominator.

 

Where, whenever you use the term 'men' without any sort of qualifier. When you assert something along the lines of - " men don't care".......then you tar us all.

 

Clearly she had repeatedly mentioned that when she refers to "men" she is referring to men that use pornography. I have to ask, would you/do you honestly care what women who have had poor experiences due to men's pornographic acting out have felt?

 

When I say pornographic 'acting out' I am referring to having lackluster sex, being treated as a walking vagina or being replaced by porn in a relationship? There are more things but I do wonder if there is any empathy for women who do not want this in their life and relationship.

 

Understandable. You and the likes of Woggle live in similar worlds. Worlds where you've rarely, if ever, experienced healthy relationships or healthy role models (especially of the opposite sex). So you take what you see and think that that's true for all, and you think this because you don't have anything else to go on. Its unfortunate but not an insurmountable circumstance to overcome by any means. You've just got to want to change because the world sure as heck isn't going to change for you.

 

Its not about denial. You can't deny what you've never shown an inclination towards (degree). And as long as you believe that porn is degrading to women then you never will.

 

Oh, and lets not confuse this with the fact that some porn "is" degrading to women and that most men understand this fact. That's not at issue here, nor is the degree (arguably, it might be more than 'some' porn for instance). What is at issue here is your lack of qualifiers, your lack of degree. And I can only guesstimate that to admit to as much is to weaken your argument in your eyes. Can't think of any other reasons (other than sheer hatred) but hey, you might surprise me!

 

What porn is not degrading to women besides make gay porn? Can we define degrading?

 

I really want to know where you draw the "hatred" from.

 

Personally I see that this woman hates pornography and the way certain men's attitudes have changed because of it.

 

.

 

I personally don't see where porn does not cross the monogamy line. How can one claim to be monogamous and not cheating on some level if they are looking at pornography? I actually wonder how that is justifiable. This is NOT an attack but I would like to know.

 

I was raised in an environment where it was considered extremely taboo, I remember media reports when I was young about people being caught with it and it was a pretty big deal. I think standards for that changed when I hit my late teens and then so many people were into it that it became completely mainstream.

 

I personally know two people whose marriage ended over it. Halle Berry ended her marriage over it too. I just honestly would like to know when and why it went from taboo to practically justifiable.

 

This is coming from someone who was pretty hooked on it for awhile.

[dreamingoftigers]

 

She hates men all right, make no bones about that. You couldn't help but hate men with the views that she possesses. Porn means degradation to her, men view porn, therefore men purposely support the degradation of women. That's one of her many stances. There are no qualifiers here, no wiggle room to suggest that she can distinguish between good and not-so-good men, degradation and mutual enjoyment. It's all the same to her. And that's the difference between a hater and someone with a beef towards a particular subject - one can keep things in context and one can't.

 

I would see that "she hates porn and the way it has changed people around her." I wouldn't see the "therefore she hates all men." Its kind of like saying that you hate "The Bachelor" and find it ridiculous, women watch The Batchelor, therefore you hate all women and find them ridiculous (By the way, I NEVER watch the Bachelor).

 

I just think it is kind of a silly argument.

 

Again, this all comes back to one's upbringing. If you've been brought up in a healthy, functional environment then you'd know without doubt that you have a choice. You'd know this because you would have seen it, if not had it - the ability to treat people well and be treated well - drummed into you. If you've not experienced this before, then I can safely say that porn would be just one of 'many' problem areas in your life.

 

According to the "all men do it" camp, I wouldn't have a choice to not have porn enter my relationship would I? This would be because if all men do it, and I didn't want porn in my relationship, then I wouldn't be able to have a relationship, would I? That is the choice I was referring to. Supposedly I would have to live by myself.

 

.

 

I have to go now, responses in bold

[silic0ntoad]

I will repeat it again because this statement gets consistantly ignored. I find it so very ironic that people want to label me as a man-hater because I question a multi-billion dollar media franchise and the majority of the population that enjoys it; that degrades, objectifies and stereotypes women. Men can sit there and jack off to videos that label women in four letter terms, shows women taking come in the face, or being dick-smacked or gagged and that means men respect women and truly love them. But if I question how men really feel and think of women based on these images that men enjoy seeing women in, it means I hate men. I think closer to the truth is that unfortunetly, the men that take offense to my porn comments, identify themselves closely to pornography. They could be watching Coed B*tches Volume A Billion and they love women and respect them but I dare question how men really think and feel about women and I'm labeled becaus they don't want to deal with the possible ramifications of what I am putting down.

 

 

 

There is no game AO. If you are going to accuse a person of certain ideaologies then be prepared to show where you got those ideaologies from. What's so hard about that? Time and time again a few of you label me and time and time again I ask you to back those comments up and you can't come up with anything.

 

 

 

 

We all take what we *know* to be true to justify our opinions. Mix in personal experiences, emotional reponses and cultural references, and you can see why so many people have varied opinions about what they think is factually true. Your above post holds no meaning because it's all speculation and personal attacks trying to degenerate my opinion by snidely commenting on what *you* think is my lack of accuracy.

 

 

 

Where did I tar fathers, brothers or uncles? Other then to say that these men view porn. A medium not known to treat women very nicely. How many dad's want to see their litlte girl become a porn star? How many men call women in porn "sluts" and look down on them while they take pleasure from them?

 

As for what most people know or how they know how to treat others, I don't see a world filled with respectful men or women. And I see alot of confusion from men about how to treat women and alot of frustration from women about how they get treated.

 

 

 

 

Porn does affect my attitude about men. Why? Because porn stereotypes, degrades and objectifies women. And it hurts as a woman to see those stereoty[es reflected in porn and to realize that plenty of men get alot of pleasure from the way women are projected in porn.

 

 

 

 

It's these kind of statements that really negate your points and credibility AO. I never denied there weren't degrees. That doesn't mean that I don't understand that if a man has been veiwing something since his formative years, porn is going to have some affect. We see it all the time. Porn are not unaffected by porn. Look at the amount of men that defend it, that need to use with regularity. Holy crap, if these guys that defended porn defended real women like this...mind blogging. Do I think that affect that porn has is positive? Not overly because porn is selfish utlimately and showcases nothing about what women really are or enjoy. It showcases a 12 year old boy's immature wet dream. And you have grown men that are so dependent on it, it's mind bloggling. You also don't want to be hoenst about the fact that porn is so much more out there and avaible today then in any other point in history. It comes right into the home completely annomous. And I fear that more and more men are subbcumbing to a weakness then over coming it. And it's going to affect them, their relationships with women, and sadly women too because women love men. Too many guys here want to deny the honesty in the fact that porn has become an increasing problem amoung men. It's alos one that is easiliy keep hidden. I doubt nay of you know the real porn habits of your buddies.

 

 

JS, I quoted, highlighted, bolded and italicized the above.

 

You've blatantly ignored my (and others) requests for proof as to how many men are affected by porn use and the way they view women. I want to see hard empyrical data, not some slander driven drive by tar machine used to paint all men as hipocrits and women degrading users.

 

You ladies have been hurt by men who over used porn. That's fine.

 

But it's also you ladies who post to guys who say "All women are b*tches, and all women play games" and tell them "Oh, stop it, it's not all women, that's not fair."

 

Guess what?

 

Men affected to the degree with which you claim all men to be affected are in the MINORITY. It's not fair to use this propaganda machine to slander all males.

 

JS- I do label you a misandrist. You come here, claim we all ignore your arguments which are not backed up by modern sociological research, and then ignore our requests for proof, or any type of argument beyond the typical "It affects you at this age and that blah blah"

 

You comments, as I've CLEARLY marked in the past allude to the power women have over sexuality in GRANTING men sexual favors. "Getting sex, giving sex" etc.

 

Inherently you imply men seek to degrade women because they support a system which you believe is inherently degrading to women. You've also failed to comment on my note about the white male watching the white female have sex with a huge black male. That's not degrading to white men, as the girl then proceeds to make fun of the white male for his lack in size? That's not degredation?

 

Get with it. Your arguments are old, and I am bored. Come up with some hard evidence that shows what you claim to be true (as I have done in the past) and I'll concur. Otherwise, relax on it.

[silic0ntoad]

I personally don't see where porn does not cross the monogamy line. How can one claim to be monogamous and not cheating on some level if they are looking at pornography? I actually wonder how that is justifiable. This is NOT an attack but I would like to know.

 

I was raised in an environment where it was considered extremely taboo, I remember media reports when I was young about people being caught with it and it was a pretty big deal. I think standards for that changed when I hit my late teens and then so many people were into it that it became completely mainstream.

 

I personally know two people whose marriage ended over it. Halle Berry ended her marriage over it too. I just honestly would like to know when and why it went from taboo to practically justifiable.

 

This is coming from someone who was pretty hooked on it for awhile.

 

 

It became mainstream back in the 70's. You know, when everyone was coked up and cracked out.

 

 

How can you say pornography crosses the monogamy line? Seriously? Since when does my dick entering another girl's vagina equal a digital image portraying two people having sex? Are you serious? What is this, the feminist soviet union?

[Bejita463]

How can you say pornography crosses the monogamy line? Seriously? Since when does my dick entering another girl's vagina equal a digital image portraying two people having sex? Are you serious? What is this, the feminist soviet union?

 

Well, to be fair, cheating isn't really so cut and dry as that. Intercourse is not required for someone to be unfaithful. The line blurs on what exactly constitutes as faithful dependent upon the morals of those drawing the line. That is a simple compatibility issue. If you think something is cheating where your partner does not, chances are good your ideas of monogamy are not in line and are incompatible as a result.

 

I don't understand why everyone likes arguing over this so much. If you think it is cheating, great! Find someone who agrees with you. If you don't, great! Find someone who agrees with you. Tadah!

[silic0ntoad]

Well, to be fair, cheating isn't really so cut and dry as that. Intercourse is not required for someone to be unfaithful. The line blurs on what exactly constitutes as faithful dependent upon the morals of those drawing the line. That is a simple compatibility issue. If you think something is cheating where your partner does not, chances are good your ideas of monogamy are not in line and are incompatible as a result.

 

I don't understand why everyone likes arguing over this so much. If you think it is cheating, great! Find someone who agrees with you. If you don't, great! Find someone who agrees with you. Tadah!

 

 

You're right, only slightly, however, on the note of pornography. What I don't understand is the mentality that a digital image is equal to unfaithfulness. That's why I date girls who are more open minded. Sometimes, I want to watch a porn if they aren't around for sexual release. Big deal. Doesn't mean I think they are worthless and should be discarded.

 

Sure, it's in the eye of the beholder. I argue though because I see slanderous arguments that paint men (including myself) as hipocrits and liars (Sp?)

[Jersey Shortie]

Lets compare apples to apples shall we. Your behavior relative to other posters is whats in question here. Many posters can question a particular field without castigating all those within it. They can and do target those that rightly deserve it. Some, like you simply can't That's all there is to it.

 

I think you need to revist the topic of this thread because it's certainly not about me. Trying to dictate my comments based more on what you personally want them to be that best suits you, has nothing to do with this thread.

 

You want to get into a personal commentary and criticism about *me* to avoid the topic at hand. Your comments above couldn't be more clear on that. This is an avoidance game that's played often to not broach the more serious topic and to hide behind sexism. I understand that not all my comments are glowing examples of praise for men. But if that alone automatically equals hate for you, you really need to reevaluate why you personally hold that view, completely seperate from my own opinions because my opinions have nothing to do with your personal interpretation. My opinions on this topic can be honest, raw and biting but often deal with the ugly and true possibilites.

 

I also am baffled by the "rationalization" that I am a man-hater because I question a multi-billion dollar business built on objectifying and stereotyping women for purely and mostly male pleasure. And further, I question the men that view it and their opinion of women. I think there is an ugly truth here that men don't want to be totally honest about. How many men become titilated seeing a woman refered to in four letter name calling? Getting smacked in the face with some man's penis? Being gagged? or the million of other fantasies that men have about babysitters, school girls, nurses..do you think these are positive stereotypes to reinforce? I am truly curious.

 

How man men with daughters and wives would punch another man if he called his wife or daughter a four letter name or looked at her as if she was just something to jack off too but completely enjoy the debasement of seeing it happen to other women? This is the strange and hypocritically confusing dichontomy we seem to live in today. These are really good questions and ones that I have yet seen any man be direct and honest enough to address.

 

I honestly do not believe that most men are so obtuse to not see the confusion about how men *really* feel towards women given the medium they support that projects women a certain way. I think the type of porn a man likes says alot about it. It's not hard to understand why women find porn degrading to women in general. I think most men can see and understand it and even themselves do think it's degarding to women. Maybe not you but clearly alot of other men do. I futher find it hypocritical that I get called a man-hater yet most men do infact view porn and porn is known to call women names and treat them aggressively yet we are suppose to understand that men really do love and cherish women even though they sure do like seeing Coed Bitches Volume 1,2 and 3. But I'm the man-hater because I question where the truth is on how and what men think and feel about women. That's so messed up and wrong.

 

AO, you are offended because I dare question how men really view or see women based on popular porn viewing habits of today. I guess true respect for women is only good for when someone is looking but behind closed doors , nothing wrong in contributing to the proflication of the medium and the objectifiation and stereotypes made about women in porn. It's not okay to stereotype men, as you've said that I've done. But it sure is okay for men to stereotype women in porn. That's not right AO.

 

I am offended that enough men rather defend pornography, their right to objectfy women, and basically tell us we should have no concerns or issues regarding men who enjoy seeing and masturbate to the debasement of women based on a few minutes of titilation that clearly is more important (about a multi-billion dollars worht of importance) to alot of men today.

 

 

My post is a very accurate observation of your behavior.

 

Your post is personal hyperbole.

 

 

She hates men all right, make no bones about that. You couldn't help but hate men with the views that she possesses. Porn means degradation to her, men view porn, therefore men purposely support the degradation of women. That's one of her many stances. There are no qualifiers here, no wiggle room to suggest that she can distinguish between good and not-so-good men, degradation and mutual enjoyment. It's all the same to her. And that's the difference between a hater and someone with a beef towards a particular subject - one can keep things in context and one can't.

 

AO, I believe you hate women. So I guess in some way that sadly makes us even.

 

By the way, don't many men infact do as you expressed? Support the degradation of women? Some out of sexual lust, some out of plain selfishness, some out of laziness or a lack of self understanding. I never once said men that view porn were bad or evil or hated women. What I have said on a repeat basis is that I question how men really think and feel about women and have always believe these discussion to be important.

 

There is a level of complancey that it's okay to objectify women on a certain level for male gratification. Anytime a man looks at porn, he is saying it's okay to debase and make a woman a receptical for his pleasure. No man would want anyone he really loved to be in porn. Most men don't even look on kindly to the pornstars and call them skanks and sluts and that they wouldn't actually really ever touch them. Yet they continue to take sexual pleasure from them and the industry. If that isn't accepting of female degradation, what is?

 

You seem to think, as other men do as well, that women should accept this with smiles and open arms and legs to men. And that we should all be so understanding that men really do love and respect women but they jsut *need* or like to see women called a slut while taking it form behind from two guys. Do I think that means men hate women? No. But I do think men are okay with objectfying and degrading women if it's for his sexual pleasure first. And that too many men think women shouldn't question this precarious position. That men should be allowed to treat women how they want based on their sexual needs and that women shouldn't question what that means for men or for them.

[Bejita463]

You're right, only slightly, however, on the note of pornography. What I don't understand is the mentality that a digital image is equal to unfaithfulness. That's why I date girls who are more open minded. Sometimes, I want to watch a porn if they aren't around for sexual release. Big deal. Doesn't mean I think they are worthless and should be discarded.

 

Sure, it's in the eye of the beholder. I argue though because I see slanderous arguments that paint men (including myself) as hipocrits and liars (Sp?)

 

There is no "slightly." If your partner thinks something is cheating, then for them it is. That is inarguable. Whether it makes sense or not is secondary. Slander doesn't necessarily need to be part of that though. I don't understand the purpose behind arguing over this at all, let alone becoming defamatory over it.

 

Not one mind is going to change.

[soserious1]

One thing that's always troubled me about things like porn, strip clubs or even scantily clad pretty women that one might view on the street is that out of one side of their mouth a lot of men are saying "wahoo, yes,yes" but out of the other side they're saying things like "slut, skank" etc.

 

If a person is generous enough to provide another person with pleasure of an intimate nature be that via a picture, video or a brief glimpse of thigh out of the street, haven't they in some way enhanced your life? What have they done to deserve being called degrading names?

 

I think this double standard relates directly to the concept of Monogamy .. the visual imagery associated with things like porn, strip clubs serves as some sort of sexual safety valve for some men, it allows them to get the visual variety they require without actually being physically unfaithful to their wives/partners. Setting up the double standard of porn stars/strippers being "skanks" versus wives being "good girls" on the surface appears to reassure wives that they've got nothing to fear from porn"they're just skanks I beat off to" On the surface the double standard appears to neatly wrap women into 2 different piles..problem solved! I personally think not.. I think it raises a host of other problems.

 

If we as a species are truly not hard wired to be monogamous for life then all these maneuvers are simply

ways to avoid tackling the issue head on and IMHO that issue is that classical monogamy is a flawed concept that is impossible for some to live up to.

Edited May 5, 2010 by soserious1

[kiss_andmakeup]

I think men are much more likely to have a bad perception of women from things they see in the mass media (the "real hosuewives" series, shows about the Kardashians and Hiltons, etc.) than anything they see in porn. These shows portray women as shallow, materialistic, gold-digging, catty, bitchy sex objects. And since these shows are portrayed as "reality TV" they are more likely to be taken seriously than porn which most men know is fake.

 

Porn is the least of our worries, in my opinion.

 

Getting smacked in the face with some man's penis? Being gagged? or the million of other fantasies that men have about babysitters, school girls, nurses..

 

Women have those fantasies too, in fact you just listed some of my favourite kinds of porn...:o

[Woggle]

Men who have a bad perception of women probably do because of real life experiences and things they have witnessed. Look at a guy with a cheating walkaway wife who did nothing but work had to make a better life for his family only to get put through the family court ringer and ask him if his views are the result of porn. Porn is just a convienent scapegoat for some women to blame for how bad things have gotten between men and women. I can assure you that porn has zilch to do with my issues with women.

[Jersey Shortie]

One thing that's always troubled me about things like porn, strip clubs or even scantily clad pretty women that one might view on the street is that out of one side of their mouth a lot of men are saying "wahoo, yes,yes" but out of the other side they're saying things like "slut, skank" etc.

 

If a person is generous enough to provide another person with pleasure of an intimate nature be that via a picture, video or a brief glimpse of thigh out of the street, haven't they in some way enhanced your life? What have they done to deserve being called degrading names?

 

I think this double standard relates directly to the concept of Monogamy .. the visual imagery associated with things like porn, strip clubs serves as some sort of sexual safety valve for some men, it allows them to get the visual variety they require without actually being physically unfaithful to their wives/partners. Setting up the double standard of porn stars/strippers being "skanks" versus wives being "good girls" on the surface appears to reassure wives that they've got nothing to fear from porn"they're just skanks I beat off to" On the surface the double standard appears to neatly wrap women into 2 different piles..problem solved! I personally think not.. I think it raises a host of other problems.

 

If we as a species are truly not hard wired to be monogamous for life then all these maneuvers are simply

ways to avoid tackling the issue head on and IMHO that issue is that classical monogamy is a flawed concept that is impossible for some to live up to.

 

Yes, I agree with this. And for some strange reason some men seem to think the women that are labled "good girls" should be happy with putting women into these two boxes. Calling women names that they get pleasure from.

 

I think men are much more likely to have a bad perception of women from things they see in the mass media (the "real hosuewives" series, shows about the Kardashians and Hiltons, etc.) than anything they see in porn. These shows portray women as shallow, materialistic, gold-digging, catty, bitchy sex objects. And since these shows are portrayed as "reality TV" they are more likely to be taken seriously than porn which most men know is fake.

 

Porn is the least of our worries, in my opinion.

 

I think it's a bit perverse to admit the possible dangers of attitude to a gender in one medium, one that isn't even reinforced with masturbation, and discredit another that shows women just as negatively. I would disagree with the idea that men would form bad perceptions of women from things like the Hiltons or Real Housewives because these are specific women. They might not like Paris Hilton but I don't think they are going to assumlate a rich heiress with your average girl. Porn is more of a generalzation of women and one that gets a high pay off for men do to the masturbating.

 

Lastly, whether you as a woman like the sexual acts I mentioned and like them in the privacy of your own room, really has no baring on the discussion. It doesn't derail the fact that these things are degrading to women and are meant to be. And no man would want his daughter or wife to be treated like that by another man.

[soserious1]

Men who have a bad perception of women probably do because of real life experiences and things they have witnessed. Look at a guy with a cheating walkaway wife who did nothing but work had to make a better life for his family only to get put through the family court ringer and ask him if his views are the result of porn. Porn is just a convienent scapegoat for some women to blame for how bad things have gotten between men and women. I can assure you that porn has zilch to do with my issues with women.

 

I think the problem of cheating spouses be they male or female has little to do with porn and more to do with the concept of monogamy itself. Porn is a smoke screen which people focus on rather than the central issue.

 

Many studies have shown that women are hard wired to seek out the best provider/protector that they can get, men are programmed to seek out visual variety, constantly scanning their environment for females with the physical traits that indicate robust health, reproductive fitness. Humans are also hard wired to pair bond for about 4 yrs, long enough to bring a baby into the world and to see it thru the dangerous early years.. before moving onto the next partner, ensuring genetic diversity.

 

Research goes further.. it shows that the chemicals responsible for passionate or "romantic love" generally are totally fizzled at by the 18 month-2 yr mark in a relationship.. a long enough time period for a pair to have either produced one healthy living baby or to have a miscarriage or two or not conceive at all. Nothing about our design is by accident, the fading of the chemical responsible for passionate lust could also be a signal to a

pair that if successful reproduction hasn't happened yet that it's time to move on. None of these hard wired traits are compatible with "till death do us part" monogamy.

 

Human Beings are not animals !! we can rise above our biology!!! Yes & no I say. Like all human traits some get bigger doses of the hard wiring than others, for some monogamy peppered with the safety valve of porn is enough to remain technically "faithful" for others it isn't they either never marry

or do marry with disastrous results for all involved.

Edited May 5, 2010 by soserious1

[silic0ntoad]

Yes, I agree with this. And for some strange reason some men seem to think the women that are labled "good girls" should be happy with putting women into these two boxes. Calling women names that they get pleasure from.

 

 

 

I think it's a bit perverse to admit the possible dangers of attitude to a gender in one medium, one that isn't even reinforced with masturbation, and discredit another that shows women just as negatively. I would disagree with the idea that men would form bad perceptions of women from things like the Hiltons or Real Housewives because these are specific women. They might not like Paris Hilton but I don't think they are going to assumlate a rich heiress with your average girl. Porn is more of a generalzation of women and one that gets a high pay off for men do to the masturbating.

 

Lastly, whether you as a woman like the sexual acts I mentioned and like them in the privacy of your own room, really has no baring on the discussion. It doesn't derail the fact that these things are degrading to women and are meant to be. And no man would want his daughter or wife to be treated like that by another man.

 

 

You yet again ignore my plea for evidence.

 

No bother, but to retort:

 

Yes, I agree, I think shows like those listed above DO more insiduously depict females as money grubbing snobs who only want to dig for gold. That gives me a more negative feeling about women then watching some girl get dick smacked across the lips in a porn.

 

And yes, her post is relevent, JS. It does have bearing on this discussion, because it shows YOU how some FEMALES feel about the situation. Not everyone agrees that all forms of pornography are degrading to women.

 

Amateur porn?

 

You REALLY do have selective reading, since you insist on ignoring 99% of my arguments save those you can counter with outdated bible belt rhetoric.

[A O]

Clearly she had repeatedly mentioned that when she refers to "men" she is referring to men that use pornography.

No she doesn't. Its men - pure and simple.

 

What porn is not degrading to women besides make gay porn? Can we define degrading?

To big a minefield. Sex itself is degrading to some people.

 

I personally don't see where porn does not cross the monogamy line. How can one claim to be monogamous and not cheating on some level if they are looking at pornography?

If you think this, then you also must think that dressing up and looking the part, while not in the company of your SO, is also cheating. To some, this means you're seeking attention, even if you're only doing all this for yourself. Same deal with porn, to some, they'll take it personally, think that they're been cheated upon, when it porn is for the vast majority of people is personal pleasure. So, to think one means you have to think both otherwise you're a hypocrite.

 

I personally know two people whose marriage ended over it. Halle Berry ended her marriage over it too. I just honestly would like to know when and why it went from taboo to practically justifiable.

You know of two or three relationships out of how many people who view porn?

 

I would see that "she hates porn and the way it has changed people around her." I wouldn't see the "therefore she hates all men."

She hates what porn means to her - degradation - and therefore she hates those that use it.

According to the "all men do it" camp, I wouldn't have a choice to not have porn enter my relationship would I?

If you'd had a healthy upbringing then you wouldn't be so hooked up on these comments. You would know where porn sits in the context of a healthy relationship. Playing victim, looking for excuses for what happened to you - won't get you anywhere.

 

 

.