Life after infidelity

[Spark1111]

I found this article helpful. The author claims there are 4 types of affairs:

 

Accidental (yes, the drunken ONS)

Romantic (Mid-life Depression)

Philandering (Yes, there ARE female philanderers and it is about power and conquest)

Revenge of the broken-hearted

 

 

www.psychologytoday.com/articles/200910/beyond-betrayal-life-after-infidelity

 

Not once is the BS blamed are labelled as the cause of any of them. The issues lie strictly with what is damaged within the WS.

 

LS posters, what do you think?

[Spark1111]

PS: I read this to my fWS and he agreed his was the romantic mid-life I don't want to commit suicide, so I will commit another form of suicide.

 

He now thinks his OW, who has since fallen off her pedestal, was a real Spider Woman; bitter over the xH who left HER for his last AP, she is out to enact revenge, preferring unhappy, but stable family-oriented MM.

 

Any thoughts?

[IfWishesWereHorses]

He now thinks his OW, who has since fallen off her pedestal, was a real Spider Woman; bitter over the xH who left HER for his last AP, she is out to enact revenge, preferring unhappy, but stable family-oriented MM.

 

I realize that this happens fairly often and have read quite a few instances of it here but I just can't begin to wrap my head around how someone who had experienced it as a BS could become a OW or WS.

 

I'm fairly familiar with one of the 4 though unfortunately and it reads text book to me!

 

They put notches on their belts in hopes it will make their penises grow bigger./B]

 

That made me LOL!

[OFGnomore]

PS: I read this to my fWS and he agreed his was the romantic mid-life I don't want to commit suicide, so I will commit another form of suicide.

 

He now thinks his OW, who has since fallen off her pedestal, was a real Spider Woman; bitter over the xH who left HER for his last AP, she is out to enact revenge, preferring unhappy, but stable family-oriented MM.

 

Any thoughts?

 

Of course it was all OWs fault. I think you two probably bond over your hatred for her. It certainly would be an effective strategy for a WS to keep the focus off them, by focusing on the the bad "other". It's been a 15 months since my dday, and my H doesn't really give xMM too much attention. It helps us keep the focus on us and what made us vulnerable, more productive IMO.

 

Read this a long time ago. I think for many, men and women, mid life makes one think about life's choices. And this is where I think most divorces/affairs occur. Sometimes, who we marry in our 20s and early 30s fit different life goals then. Then as empty nesters, when child rearing abilities and the ability to managed a household change, people look for different qualities. Now maybe where I live is unique, but I see many marriages break up at this time and second marriages come about, once the kids have left for college. And in every case I've seen, the man has always had a woman in the waiting . It's text book. It may have something to due with affluence. It's kind of messed up but I think the qualities that make a man financially successful make him feel a whole lot entitled too. xMM say he wasn't sure if he was staying with his W but he knew he could. Nice, he's really worried about losing something precious, huh? Seriously, I don't think men make the decision to divorce w/o a woman somewhere in the picture, unless they've been cheated on. Generally, speaking women are more included to say "F it" and be independent.

 

I think this short article is way to sarcastic and entertaining for me to be taken too seriously. But a great book that I think deals with motivations is Emily Brown, Infidelity and their Treatments. Very balanced, written for therapist by a social worker for helping clients deal with infidelity. No false hope, no "bad guys", balanced and real.

[Spark1111]

He now thinks his OW, who has since fallen off her pedestal, was a real Spider Woman; bitter over the xH who left HER for his last AP, she is out to enact revenge, preferring unhappy, but stable family-oriented MM.

 

I realize that this happens fairly often and have read quite a few instances of it here but I just can't begin to wrap my head around how someone who had experienced it as a BS could become a OW or WS.

 

Because in having been so victimized it empowers them when they can victimize someone else as they were; sort of a sub-concious role reversal. woman to woman, I told her, this was the one thing I could not wrap MY head around.

 

I'm fairly familiar with one of the 4 though unfortunately and it reads text book to me!

 

They put notches on their belts in hopes it will make their penises grow bigger./B]

 

That made me LOL!

 

And empower the masculinity they real are not feeling!

[Spark1111]

Of course it was all OWs fault. I think you two probably bond over your hatred for her. It certainly would be an effective strategy for a WS to keep the focus off them, by focusing on the the bad "other". It's been a 15 months since my dday, and my H doesn't really give xMM too much attention. It helps us keep the focus on us and what made us vulnerable, more productive IMO.

 

Oh no,no hatred here Gnomore. Read my posts. This is now how he feels about her in retrospect. And I know the majority of OW are not this OW. And I have freely admitted he loved her at one time, just didn't really see her.

 

Did you truly see your xMM when you were in love? Did he not prove to be a spiteful vindictive man eventually? Well, so did she.

 

Read this a long time ago. I think for many, men and women, mid life makes one think about life's choices. And this is where I think most divorces/affairs occur. Sometimes, who we marry in our 20s and early 30s fit different life goals then. Then as empty nesters, when child rearing abilities and the ability to managed a household change, people look for different qualities. Now maybe where I live is unique, but I see many marriages break up at this time and second marriages come about, once the kids have left for college. So true! See this everywhere!

 

And in every case I've seen, the man has always had a woman in the waiting . It's text book. It may have something to due with affluence. It's kind of messed up but I think the qualities that make a man financially successful make him feel a whole lot entitled too.

And frequently sought after by many women, I may add.

 

xMM say he wasn't sure if he was staying with his W but he knew he could. Nice, he's really worried about losing something precious, huh? Seriously, I don't think men make the decision to divorce w/o a woman somewhere in the picture, unless they've been cheated on. Generally, speaking women are more included to say "F it" and be independent.

 

I agree with this.

 

I think this short article is way to sarcastic and entertaining for me to be taken too seriously. But a great book that I think deals with motivations is Emily Brown, Infidelity and their Treatments. Very balanced, written for therapist by a social worker for helping clients deal with infidelity. No false hope, no "bad guys", balanced and real.

 

I have to disagree with you. I did not find the tone sarcastic at all or labeling adulterers as bad guys.

[grogster]

I have to disagree with you. I did not find the tone sarcastic at all or labeling adulterers as bad guys.

 

As a veteran of a "Romantic Infidelity" affair, I thought the article was spot-on. Both I and my MW did, in fact, lose our heads. And I agree with the statement that "romantic affairs happen in good marriages more often than in bad ones." I had a good marriage at the time.

 

Most of all, I agreed with the author's observation that infidelity is a very messy hobby and is not an effective way to find a new mate or a new life.

 

So now, 7 years after I ended my affair, and after a 5-year marital separation, I am reconciling with my wife to everyone's joy and relief.

 

As for affairs, I have two words: Never Again.

[realworldexplorer]

Dr. Frank Pittman is a very good and experienced psychiatrist who has dealt with the fallout of infidelity for decades. He has a very simple approach and uses common sense as an unbiased observer of all the behaviours he has encountered. His book "Private Lies" is excellent and covers many situations. I highly recommend it.

 

WS's will not like it as he does not water down their responsibilies or consequences for choosing to engage in deception and betrayal for whatever reason. He is of the school that says that each individual is responsible for their own success in life and not to rely on your spouse to make you happy. He dispels many myths about marriage and takes a realistic approach to making it successful: ie. marriage is not for the feint of heart and takes work and commitment, it is not for selfish people.

 

He also wrote a chapter in the book: "Handbook of the Clinical Treatment of Infidelity" the chapter title "The Relationship, If Any, Between Marriage and Infidelity" says a lot. His priority for success is honesty and the fact that if you have made a large mistake you will have to atone for it for your own good and betterment. I agree with his writings in that it is simple, truthful and informative. He states that most people ask "Did I marry the right person?" instead of asking "Am I the right person to be married?"

 

Although Dr. Pittman has been married for decades and never been involved in infidelity personally, he has seen the results and is very educated in regard to this vast subject. His approach is to the decision making process that makes someone forfeit their personal and moral boundaries for future pain and suffering. The antithesis to delaying of gratification. Quote, " When someone has made a decision to have an affair, the decision making has to be a focus of treatment. The question is not "How did your husband or wife make you have an affair?" but "How did infidelity (or violence or getting drunk or suicide bombing) get into your repertoire of responses to stressful situations?"

 

The Pschology Today article is good and the writer understands what his subject is ALL about. Sometimes I suppose, the BS can be a factor in the decision making of the WS, but the decision itself (and all issues related) rest solely on the WS and OM/OW. Pittman also has a warning for potential WS. Quote, "Keep in mind that Miss or Mr. Wonderful wants something desperately, but is not a social worker and does not have the best interests of you and your loved ones at heart. People who screw around with married people are not noted for their stability or generosity or sanity. Beware."

[seibert253]

I don't know where you find some of this stuff, Spark you're always right on time.

 

Your H is a lucky man, hope he knows this.

[Spark1111]

As a veteran of a "Romantic Infidelity" affair, I thought the article was spot-on. Both I and my MW did, in fact, lose our heads. And I agree with the statement that "romantic affairs happen in good marriages more often than in bad ones." I had a good marriage at the time.

 

Most of all, I agreed with the author's observation that infidelity is a very messy hobby and is not an effective way to find a new mate or a new life.

 

So now, 7 years after I ended my affair, and after a 5-year marital separation, I am reconciling with my wife to everyone's joy and relief.

 

As for affairs, I have two words: Never Again.

 

Grogster, I am touched and so heartened that you and your spouse have the opportunity, 5 years later, to commit to each other again and reconcile!

 

And that you seem so joyous about it!

 

Do you realize, and I am sure you do, how fortunate you are? That your former BS is even still available to reconcile?

 

I am overjoyed for you.

 

One question, if you care to answer, when was the last time you spoke or saw your fOW?

[Spark1111]

Dr. Frank Pittman is a very good and experienced psychiatrist who has dealt with the fallout of infidelity for decades. He has a very simple approach and uses common sense as an unbiased observer of all the behaviours he has encountered. His book "Private Lies" is excellent and covers many situations. I highly recommend it.

 

WS's will not like it as he does not water down their responsibilies or consequences for choosing to engage in deception and betrayal for whatever reason. He is of the school that says that each individual is responsible for their own success in life and not to rely on your spouse to make you happy. He dispels many myths about marriage and takes a realistic approach to making it successful: ie. marriage is not for the feint of heart and takes work and commitment, it is not for selfish people.

 

He also wrote a chapter in the book: "Handbook of the Clinical Treatment of Infidelity" the chapter title "The Relationship, If Any, Between Marriage and Infidelity" says a lot. His priority for success is honesty and the fact that if you have made a large mistake you will have to atone for it for your own good and betterment. I agree with his writings in that it is simple, truthful and informative. He states that most people ask "Did I marry the right person?" instead of asking "Am I the right person to be married?"

 

Although Dr. Pittman has been married for decades and never been involved in infidelity personally, he has seen the results and is very educated in regard to this vast subject. His approach is to the decision making process that makes someone forfeit their personal and moral boundaries for future pain and suffering. The antithesis to delaying of gratification. Quote, " When someone has made a decision to have an affair, the decision making has to be a focus of treatment. The question is not "How did your husband or wife make you have an affair?" but "How did infidelity (or violence or getting drunk or suicide bombing) get into your repertoire of responses to stressful situations?"

 

The Pschology Today article is good and the writer understands what his subject is ALL about. Sometimes I suppose, the BS can be a factor in the decision making of the WS, but the decision itself (and all issues related) rest solely on the WS and OM/OW. Pittman also has a warning for potential WS. Quote, "Keep in mind that Miss or Mr. Wonderful wants something desperately, but is not a social worker and does not have the best interests of you and your loved ones at heart. People who screw around with married people are not noted for their stability or generosity or sanity. Beware."

 

RealWEx,

 

Thanks for fleshing Dr. Pittman and his writings out for this post.

 

When DDAY struck, I remember saying to my counselor through tears, because I refused to blame her, that I loved him and he loved her, so I was certain she must be a wonderful person.

 

He stopped me on a dime and said, "No! Wonderful people do not have affairs with married men or women."

 

His meaning was not right or wrong, good or bad, but that a certain neediness in both partners, a weak personality chink in the armor, must be evident in both to proceed.

 

Plus, yes, I love his point of "Would I be married to me?" as opposed to "I married the wrong person."

 

Thanks for your post.

[Spark1111]

I don't know where you find some of this stuff, Spark you're always right on time.

 

Your H is a lucky man, hope he knows this.

 

Hell, I remind him every opportunity I can, dontchaknow!

 

Siebert, I just want to heal from it all, and found this article helpful. He did too. Glad you did too.

 

I hate the saying, "Once a cheater, always a cheater," but as long as infidelity is justified by romanticism, well that statement may very well be true, and hey, life is short and I refuse to always be looking over my shoulder.

 

I love the man, but if we do not examine and fully understand what led to his actions, I will never feel safe in this reconciled relationship.

 

The more I read, the more I can hold onto that his actions were NOT a result of something I DID OR DIDN'T DO.

 

And that comforts me.

[Samantha0905]

 

I think this short article is way to sarcastic and entertaining for me to be taken too seriously. But a great book that I think deals with motivations is Emily Brown, Infidelity and their Treatments. Very balanced, written for therapist by a social worker for helping clients deal with infidelity. No false hope, no "bad guys", balanced and real.

 

I'll come back and read the posted article later. I do think it is refreshing when help is offered from the perspective of no "bad guys." It may make the WS and the BS feel better to demonize the OW/OM, but I find it sad and also -- not focusing on the real issues in the marriage.

 

If the other woman is Spider Woman, is the WH Mary Jane? I just don't get a WS having sex with someone outside of a marriage and then feeling ugly about the person in retrospect for having affairs with MM. What? I mean, I'm all for accepting what I did as wrong, but I in no way feel the need to speak in a derogatory way about my XAP. I understand if the BS does -- just not the WS -- and I wonder if this is just a form of appeasement to make the BS feel better about the situation?

[Jilly Bean]

What do I think?

 

Two things.

 

1 - does the type of affair a married person has really matter? I know if I was married, and my husband stepped out on me, categorizing his cheating, lying and betrayal would be the last thing on my mind. Why would I care if he was having a midlife crisis, or was a serial cheat? To me, cheating would be a deal-breaker, so there is no point in labeling it. I think those who label it are the spouses who decide to keep a cheater around, and therefore need to somehow rationalize their choice, even though deep down, they know they are kidding themselves. As if knowing your husband had a midlife crisis, which therefore contributed to his ongoing affair makes it any better. I guess if it helps someone get through the day. lol. I would think an easier thing is to dump the cheater and not have to justify their cheating.

 

2 - do people really blame spouses for cheating? I'm sure this is what a cheater tells the person he cheats with to get them to sleep with them to begin with, but IMO, no matter HOW bad the marriage or the spouse, the cheater always has a choice to NOT cheat, and to end the marriage or seek counseling. That's always a far better option than engaging in an affair, though I know most don't do that.

[grogster]

Grogster, I am touched and so heartened that you and your spouse have the opportunity, 5 years later, to commit to each other again and reconcile!

 

And that you seem so joyous about it!

 

Do you realize, and I am sure you do, how fortunate you are? That your former BS is even still available to reconcile?

 

I am overjoyed for you.

 

One question, if you care to answer, when was the last time you spoke or saw your fOW?

 

 

Slightly more than 5 years ago I sent an email ordering my MW to never, ever contact me again.

Not even emails; nothing; zilch.

 

And she hasn"t.

[Samantha0905]

Okay -- reading it now.......

 

After an accidental infidelity, there is clearly the sense that one's life and marriage have changed. The choices are:

 

To decide that infidelity was a stupid thing to do, to confess it or not to do so, but to resolve to take better precautions in the future;

To decide you wouldn't have done such a thing unless your husband or wife had let you down, put the blame on your mate, and go home and pick your marriage to death;

To notice that lightning did not strike you dead, decide this would be a safe and inexpensive hobby to take up, and do it some more;

To decide that you would not have done such a thing if you were married to the right person, determine that this was meant to be, and declare yourself in love with the stranger in the bed.

 

I like the first choice, given those options.

 

Romantic affairs happen in good marriages even more often than in bad ones.

 

Interesting. I do think they obviously happen during times when people are vulnerable. I don't like statements like "Wonderful people don't sleep with married people." The tone is pretty judgmental and once again -- alludes to a person being a bad person as a whole because they make a bad choice. I don't buy it. There could very well be many wonderful things about a person who is involved in an affair. The involvement not being one of them, of course.

 

Marital Arrangements

 

This section was rather creepy.

 

Philandering

 

I can think of one male I know who does this and he's pretty creepy also. He's nice enough to talk to and all of that -- just certainly not someone I would want to be in a relationship with and I do feel for the young women I see him seduce. He actually makes me think it is a sickness/personality defect in his case. I don't know about the fear of being controlled by females aspect of the article. I suppose that could be one of the reasons a person ends up being a philanderer. I imagine there are others or it's probably a combination of things.

 

I've never met a female philanderer.

 

Spider Woman

 

Ahhhh. Spider Woman. Now I know what you meant. It is kind of odd when someone suffers betrayal they would react in that manner. I think it would be a reach to label an OW as this, unless they had repeatedly done the same thing over and over. It could be she was lonely and vulnerable after experiencing betrayal/rejection and fell for a married man who was making himself available. Of course, this is very bad for a marriage -- but it may not have been an evil intent to destroy a family to make her feel more powerful. I suppose the WS could claim she pursued him as opposed to it being a joint activity. I know my OM tried to do the victim thing once and claim I had pursued him. He had flirted with me and I had returned the flirtations. I don't like the blame game when it comes to such matters. Both parties are guilty.

 

Agnes finally became sufficiently alarmed about her husband's deterioration that she decided the only way she could save his life was to divorce him. She did, and Alvin promptly dumped Bette. He could not forgive her for what she had made him do to dear, sweet Agnes. He lost no time in taking up with Darlene, with whom he had been flirting for some time, but who wouldn't go out with a married man. Agnes felt relief, and the comfort of a good settlement, but Bette was once again abandoned and desperate.

 

This part is interesting and I could see it happening, although again -- I don't understand when someone starts condemning someone for an activity in which they freely participated with that person. I do understand someone learns from their mistakes and moves on, but I suppose I don't like the wording -- "for what she had made him do to dear, sweet Agnes." I'm sure she didn't make him do anything and when WS make this claim -- or convince themselves this falsehood is true -- I think it's BS.

 

Of course Bette sounds like a real nutcase also.

 

Howard didn't bring it up again. Instead, he began to talk to Maxine, one of the tailors at the store, a tired middle-aged woman who shared Howard's disillusionment with the world. One day, Maxine called frightened because she smelled gas in her trailer and her third ex-husband had threatened to hurt her. She needed for Howard to come out and see if he could smell anything dangerous. He did, and somehow ended up in bed with Maxine. He felt in love. He knew it was crazy but he couldn't get along without her. He bailed her out of the frequent disasters in her life. They began to plot their getaway, which consumed his attention for months.

 

The more I'm reading these examples, the more I'm thinking they all seem to be rather extreme examples. The author seems to be going for shock factor and exaggeration.

 

He couldn't understand why anyone would be mad with him; he couldn't help who he loves and who he doesn't love.

 

I mean come on. Surely he had the slightest clue as to why.

 

A woman is more likely to tell me that at the sound of the zipper she quickly ascertained that she was not as much in love with her husband as she should have been, and the man there in bed with her was the true love of her life.

 

More sarcasm and I'm sure -- exaggeration. I'm sure it was the sound of that zipper that instantly made her feel that way. Please.

 

Of course, a woman is likely to feel the children would be in support of her affair, and thus may involve them in relaying her messages, keeping her secrets, and telling her lies.

 

What? I've never heard of any woman doing this. If it happens, I imagine it is more of a rare occurrence than not.

 

 

Okay -- I'm done. I didn't love that article -- probably due to the way in which the author expressed himself. I can certainly see why a BS would like the article.

[jennie-jennie]

Dr. Frank Pittman is a very good and experienced psychiatrist who has dealt with the fallout of infidelity for decades. He has a very simple approach and uses common sense as an unbiased observer of all the behaviours he has encountered. His book "Private Lies" is excellent and covers many situations. I highly recommend it.

 

WS's will not like it as he does not water down their responsibilies or consequences for choosing to engage in deception and betrayal for whatever reason. He is of the school that says that each individual is responsible for their own success in life and not to rely on your spouse to make you happy. He dispels many myths about marriage and takes a realistic approach to making it successful: ie. marriage is not for the feint of heart and takes work and commitment, it is not for selfish people.

 

He also wrote a chapter in the book: "Handbook of the Clinical Treatment of Infidelity" the chapter title "The Relationship, If Any, Between Marriage and Infidelity" says a lot. His priority for success is honesty and the fact that if you have made a large mistake you will have to atone for it for your own good and betterment. I agree with his writings in that it is simple, truthful and informative. He states that most people ask "Did I marry the right person?" instead of asking "Am I the right person to be married?"

 

Although Dr. Pittman has been married for decades and never been involved in infidelity personally, he has seen the results and is very educated in regard to this vast subject. His approach is to the decision making process that makes someone forfeit their personal and moral boundaries for future pain and suffering. The antithesis to delaying of gratification. Quote, " When someone has made a decision to have an affair, the decision making has to be a focus of treatment. The question is not "How did your husband or wife make you have an affair?" but "How did infidelity (or violence or getting drunk or suicide bombing) get into your repertoire of responses to stressful situations?"

 

The Pschology Today article is good and the writer understands what his subject is ALL about. Sometimes I suppose, the BS can be a factor in the decision making of the WS, but the decision itself (and all issues related) rest solely on the WS and OM/OW. Pittman also has a warning for potential WS. Quote, "Keep in mind that Miss or Mr. Wonderful wants something desperately, but is not a social worker and does not have the best interests of you and your loved ones at heart. People who screw around with married people are not noted for their stability or generosity or sanity. Beware."

 

I read the article. How anyone can describe Frank Pittman as "unbiased" is beyond me.

 

He states that most people ask "Did I marry the right person?" instead of asking "Am I the right person to be married?"

 

This I agree with. I believe this is the hard lesson that many WS learn. If my MM actually did get a divorce, I would never consider marrying him. I do not want a man who stays with me out of obligation instead of love. And as my MM puts it: "When obligation is present, I can not feel love."

[Spark1111]

I'll come back and read the posted article later. I do think it is refreshing when help is offered from the perspective of no "bad guys." It may make the WS and the BS feel better to demonize the OW/OM, but I find it sad and also -- not focusing on the real issues in the marriage.

 

There are real issues in EVERY marriage. People who choose to have an affair are not bad. Misguided maybe, but not bad. I do not see that in the article at all.

 

If the other woman is Spider Woman, is the WH Mary Jane? I just don't get a WS having sex with someone outside of a marriage and then feeling ugly about the person in retrospect for having affairs with MM. What? I mean, I'm all for accepting what I did as wrong, but I in no way feel the need to speak in a derogatory way about my XAP. I understand if the BS does -- just not the WS -- and I wonder if this is just a form of appeasement to make the BS feel better about the situation?

 

He loved her. No one demonized her. No one had to. No one here bonded over hating her. Two years later the OW in our scenario resurfaced. He realized at that point SHE WAS NOT THE PERSON HE THOUGHT SHE WAS. His fantasy had burst, and the characteristics he had attributed to her, was not what he saw in her two years later.

 

This maybe is not true in all cases, but it was in ours.

[seren]

H demonizing XOW is something I have struggled with as I find it ridiculous for him to say she was/is as bad as he makes her out to be. I spoke to her after the A and she just sounded sad, in an unhappy marriage, and yes, admitted that she had fancied my H for a long time and had actively pursued him - however, he allowed himself to 'get caught'. I said he should speak with her for proper closure, he refused, he was a conflict avoider, will openly admit the A was an escape from stress, our marriage being in trouble and him not knowing how to repair it, him not feeling good enough for me. I also think she made him laugh, gave him an escape from everything and while he says he felt nothing, I don't think that was the case, I think with hindsight he can see that what he and I have is and always was, worth a bit of hard work.

 

In all honesty, once D day happened, OW just didn't factor. The focus was on us and our marriage. Frankly I couldn't blame OW for the A as it was H who lied to me. What I couldn't forgive OW for would be the same as I wouldn't forgive anyone who had knowingly taken part in something that would hurt me and my son and show no remorse.

How could I demonize OW without demonizing my H, how could I reconcile with H if I demonized him.

Edited April 24, 2010 by seren
ETA sentence for clarity

[Spark1111]

H demonizing XOW is something I have struggled with as I find it ridiculous for him to say she was/is as bad as he makes her out to be. I spoke to her after the A and she just sounded sad, in an unhappy marriage, and yes, admitted that she had fancied my H for a long time and had actively pursued him - however, he allowed himself to 'get caught'. I said he should speak with her for proper closure, he refused, he was a conflict avoider, will openly admit the A was an escape from stress, our marriage being in trouble and him not knowing how to repair it, him not feeling good enough for me. I also think she made him laugh, gave him an escape from everything and while he says he felt nothing, I don't think that was the case, I think with hindsight he can see that what he and I have is and always was, worth a bit of hard work.

 

In all honesty, once D day happened, OW just didn't factor. The focus was on us and our marriage. Frankly I couldn't blame OW for the A as it was H who lied to me. What I couldn't forgive OW for would be the same as I wouldn't forgive anyone who had knowingly taken part in something that would hurt me and my son and show no remorse.

How could I demonize OW without demonizing my H, how could I reconcile with H if I demonized him.

 

Seren, I agree with you.

 

There are many different types of OW/OM as there are married people who have affairs.

 

There is no one size fits all.

 

But that does not mean that there are NOT Spider Women, female philanderers, women who involve their children in lying to the spouse while they go meet their lover.

 

Of course there are!

 

There are also narcissists, pathological liars, borderlines and bi-polars, along with bible-toting pastors and preachers who have affairs.

 

I agree with Dr. Pittman that it is symptomatic of the weaknesses within the cheater, and a very misguided and self-destructive way to solve problems to have an affair.

 

Many are unhappy and every marriage has issues which could/should be addressed.

 

But NOT ALL PEOPLE who are unhappy have affairs. It is worth addressing from a phychologists view point, someone who has counseled thousands of people and has formulated a viewpoint.

[White Flower]

Dr. Frank Pittman is a very good and experienced psychiatrist who has dealt with the fallout of infidelity for decades. He has a very simple approach and uses common sense as an unbiased observer of all the behaviours he has encountered. His book "Private Lies" is excellent and covers many situations. I highly recommend it.

 

WS's will not like it as he does not water down their responsibilies or consequences for choosing to engage in deception and betrayal for whatever reason. He is of the school that says that each individual is responsible for their own success in life and not to rely on your spouse to make you happy. He dispels many myths about marriage and takes a realistic approach to making it successful: ie. marriage is not for the feint of heart and takes work and commitment, it is not for selfish people.

 

He also wrote a chapter in the book: "Handbook of the Clinical Treatment of Infidelity" the chapter title "The Relationship, If Any, Between Marriage and Infidelity" says a lot. His priority for success is honesty and the fact that if you have made a large mistake you will have to atone for it for your own good and betterment. I agree with his writings in that it is simple, truthful and informative. He states that most people ask "Did I marry the right person?" instead of asking "Am I the right person to be married?"

 

Although Dr. Pittman has been married for decades and never been involved in infidelity personally, he has seen the results and is very educated in regard to this vast subject. His approach is to the decision making process that makes someone forfeit their personal and moral boundaries for future pain and suffering. The antithesis to delaying of gratification. Quote, " When someone has made a decision to have an affair, the decision making has to be a focus of treatment. The question is not "How did your husband or wife make you have an affair?" but "How did infidelity (or violence or getting drunk or suicide bombing) get into your repertoire of responses to stressful situations?"

 

The Pschology Today article is good and the writer understands what his subject is ALL about. Sometimes I suppose, the BS can be a factor in the decision making of the WS, but the decision itself (and all issues related) rest solely on the WS and OM/OW. Pittman also has a warning for potential WS. Quote, "Keep in mind that Miss or Mr. Wonderful wants something desperately, but is not a social worker and does not have the best interests of you and your loved ones at heart. People who screw around with married people are not noted for their stability or generosity or sanity. Beware."

RWE, I absolutely loved your summary of Dr. Pittman and was going to ask if you wrote for a living. Then I became dismayed when I read the doctor's quote (bolded). I think it was irresponsible of the doctor to make a claim like that because it encourages lay people to run wild with it, especially hurt spouses.

 

Ask ANYONE of my friends including MM, my exH, or my kids and they will tell you that I am stable, generous, and very very sane. And I actually DO have MM's best interests at heart and I prove that every time I tell him to make his decision based on HIS needs and wants, not my own. (He is in IC trying to figure out why he stays in a M that does not work for him; don't want to go off on a tangent so will keep this part short).

 

I can admit that the OP wants something from the WS, but there is nothing desperate about it. I want his love and commitment. I have his love, but it hasn't yet come with committment. Trust me, if I thought for a moment that he didn't love me I would not only accept it, but I would ask him to leave me alone. I simply do not need someone in my life who doesn't love me. It would feel pathetic to me to hang onto someone who didn't have deep feelings for me.

 

I wonder why Dr. Pittman feels so strongly about the OP; has he been cheated on? Does he back up his claim with stats?

 

I might agree that being in an A makes me a bit selfish (for the first time in my life) but never any of the characteristics Dr. Pittman mentions. I might even entertain Sparks theory about the OP who was once a BS having some sort of revenge complex; however, I would only really buy that wholly if the revenge were toward the OP my exH had the A with. I have no designs on hurting MM's W in any way. She just doesn't deserve this. FWIW I have decided that after he makes his decision in IC it will go one way or the other. He just can't have both any more. I believe THAT to be in everybody's best interest.

[White Flower]

H demonizing XOW is something I have struggled with as I find it ridiculous for him to say she was/is as bad as he makes her out to be. I spoke to her after the A and she just sounded sad, in an unhappy marriage, and yes, admitted that she had fancied my H for a long time and had actively pursued him - however, he allowed himself to 'get caught'. I said he should speak with her for proper closure, he refused, he was a conflict avoider, will openly admit the A was an escape from stress, our marriage being in trouble and him not knowing how to repair it, him not feeling good enough for me. I also think she made him laugh, gave him an escape from everything and while he says he felt nothing, I don't think that was the case, I think with hindsight he can see that what he and I have is and always was, worth a bit of hard work.

 

In all honesty, once D day happened, OW just didn't factor. The focus was on us and our marriage. Frankly I couldn't blame OW for the A as it was H who lied to me. What I couldn't forgive OW for would be the same as I wouldn't forgive anyone who had knowingly taken part in something that would hurt me and my son and show no remorse.

How could I demonize OW without demonizing my H, how could I reconcile with H if I demonized him.

Seren, what an intelligent woman you are. Your outlook is very honest and introspective and your suspicions are correct about your H; if he can demoralize his OW, then he should hold himself as equal in the demoralization. He could have very well stated that the A was fun but in the end served to show him that he really loved you best, but his demoralizing his OW, or ANY woman for that matter, causes me concern for you and any other woman in his life such as a mother or daughter. I hope you continue to keep him in check about the way he views women in general. I also think he made the right choice, for what it's worth. You seem to be his anchor and support.

[White Flower]

I read the article. How anyone can describe Frank Pittman as "unbiased" is beyond me.

 

Exactly.

He states that most people ask "Did I marry the right person?" instead of asking "Am I the right person to be married?"

 

This I agree with. I believe this is the hard lesson that many WS learn. If my MM actually did get a divorce, I would never consider marrying him. I do not want a man who stays with me out of obligation instead of love. And as my MM puts it: "When obligation is present, I can not feel love."

I agree with this particular statement that Dr. Pittman made as well. My MM should have never M, yet he NEEDS companionship to the likes I've never seen in a man. He never seems to need 'alone time' as every single moment he's taken 'alone' has always been spent with an OW as far as I know.

 

If my MM gets a D, I know he would propose to me because he's kind of romantic and old-fashioned that way but I would definitely discuss the whole 'obligation' issue you mentioned. I just CAN'T have anybody feel obligated toward me. Committed is fine, obligated is not. Maybe there is a bit of insanity in me? I ponder this difference a lot.

[realworldexplorer]

RWE, I absolutely loved your summary of Dr. Pittman and was going to ask if you wrote for a living. Then I became dismayed when I read the doctor's quote (bolded). I think it was irresponsible of the doctor to make a claim like that because it encourages lay people to run wild with it, especially hurt spouses.

 

Ask ANYONE of my friends including MM, my exH, or my kids and they will tell you that I am stable, generous, and very very sane. And I actually DO have MM's best interests at heart and I prove that every time I tell him to make his decision based on HIS needs and wants, not my own. (He is in IC trying to figure out why he stays in a M that does not work for him; don't want to go off on a tangent so will keep this part short).

 

I can admit that the OP wants something from the WS, but there is nothing desperate about it. I want his love and commitment. I have his love, but it hasn't yet come with committment. Trust me, if I thought for a moment that he didn't love me I would not only accept it, but I would ask him to leave me alone. I simply do not need someone in my life who doesn't love me. It would feel pathetic to me to hang onto someone who didn't have deep feelings for me.

 

I wonder why Dr. Pittman feels so strongly about the OP; has he been cheated on? Does he back up his claim with stats?

 

I might agree that being in an A makes me a bit selfish (for the first time in my life) but never any of the characteristics Dr. Pittman mentions. I might even entertain Sparks theory about the OP who was once a BS having some sort of revenge complex; however, I would only really buy that wholly if the revenge were toward the OP my exH had the A with. I have no designs on hurting MM's W in any way. She just doesn't deserve this. FWIW I have decided that after he makes his decision in IC it will go one way or the other. He just can't have both any more. I believe THAT to be in everybody's best interest.

 

I agree that the quote is a little harsh, and I believe the good doctor may be somewhat irked at the injustice of infidelity, you know, constantly having to clean up other peoples avoidable messes. People will make judgements and decide for themselves what they find acceptable. I was dismayed to find out you are with a married man. Which begs the question why? You sound intelligent and by your own description are sane and generous.

 

Why would you want to take a risk with someone who in all probability could be decieving you as well. Not to mention how you can accept the notion that to get what you want you may have to sacrifice and destroy someone elses marriage, self esteem and future (no matter how bad the WS portrays it, remember that the WS could be lying). I can do without that kind of happiness and the actions to attain it are little more than "a bit selfish". You are right about the BS not deserving such a horrific blow and I am glad that I am not in your MM's shoes. I hope that things work out for you but like the good doctor I am "a bit sceptical".

[White Flower]

I agree that the quote is a little harsh, and I believe the good doctor may be somewhat irked at the injustice of infidelity, you know, constantly having to clean up other peoples avoidable messes. People will make judgements and decide for themselves what they find acceptable. I was dismayed to find out you are with a married man. Which begs the question why? You sound intelligent and by your own description are sane and generous.

 

Why would you want to take a risk with someone who in all probability could be decieving you as well. Not to mention how you can accept the notion that to get what you want you may have to sacrifice and destroy someone elses marriage, self esteem and future (no matter how bad the WS portrays it, remember that the WS could be lying). I can do without that kind of happiness and the actions to attain it are little more than "a bit selfish". You are right about the BS not deserving such a horrific blow and I am glad that I am not in your MM's shoes. I hope that things work out for you but like the good doctor I am "a bit sceptical".

FWIW there are many, many intelligent people involved in As.

 

All good questions and if Spark doesn't mind I will answer them here while still trying to keep the 'life after infidelity' theme. Maybe we can even call it, 'life after infidelity according to the OW'!

 

Why would I want to take a risk with someone who in all probability could be decieving me as well? Well, I took the risk because at the time it was worth it to me. Not so much now. HE is worth being with, but an A is NOT any longer. And yes, he DID deceive me as well.:oBut we've come way beyond that since then and there is complete transparency between us now. I won't bore you with how I know this.

 

How can I accept the notion that to get what I want I may have to sacrifice and destroy someone elses marriage, self esteem and future? I don't believe I am responsible for breaking up a M or destroying someone else's self-esteem or future. Nobody should look to their H nor the M for self-esteem and if the M breaks up it won't be because I did that-you give the OW too much power when you make a suggestion like that; it would be because MM wanted to leave his M.

 

I agree that no matter how the WS portrays his M he could be lying. Further, he could be putting blame on his W for his lack of happiness when really he should be looking within himself for happiness. When I complained about my H to MM it was all true. And then I backed up everything I said with action by divorcing him.

 

Two days before D-day I broke up with MM. I told him that I needed more and if he couldn't give it to me then I was out of the R. He spent two days calling me all day long and didn't hang up when W was around, trying to get me to hang in there until he left her and that is when she couldn't take him being on the phone all the time, hence the D-day. It is ironic that she thinks we broke up then, on her prompting, when I did it two days prior.

 

Anyway, just as Spark didn't want her H to come to her as the default partner and force him to stay I didn't want to force MM to leave for me or ever see me as the default partner. I just don't play that way but if I'm not happy I won't stay either. (That is why I D'd.) Yet I know what we have, how special we are together, and if it is meant to be then he knows where I am and if I'm still single then great! But I won't do the part-time R again, it just isn't fulfilling enough for me anymore.

 

So there is life after infidelity even for the OW. I just don't know how it will be yet.