Nelly swipes a credit card down the backside of a woman?

[MrNate]

Jersey, apparently I'm still losing you. It feels like you're making some assumptions about what I said, and making a couple of things up. But regardless, I think it's best, especially at this level of disconnect, to just agree to disagree. We both have valid points but are on totally different pages of this issue. I look forward to having more discussions with you in the future.

[Woggle]

I must agree that swiping a credit card down a woman's back is in no way sexually stimulating. I am against censorship and I would never promote banning this but I sort of do agree with the feminists on this one. What kind of person gets turned on by that?

[Pfiend101]

I've been reading some of Marsle's posts lately and think there are some fairy tails being told from time to time. No one should be able to tell me what I can or can't watch. Those stats are bs and you ladies know it. If you went to all of your female friends and asked them if they had been raped would 20% say yes? I HIGHLY doubt it.

[Hot Carl]

I'm sure that Nelly guy was just trying to get some cash.

[marsle85]

I've been reading some of Marsle's posts lately and think there are some fairy tails being told from time to time. No one should be able to tell me what I can or can't watch. Those stats are bs and you ladies know it. If you went to all of your female friends and asked them if they had been raped would 20% say yes? I HIGHLY doubt it.

 

I don't care what you think of my posts. If you don't think they're substantial, spare yourself and don't read them.

 

What I find frightening is how many guys are clearly blind to what is around us. I am not lying when I say it's likely more than 20% of my friends have been forced to preform a sexual act. This is why the 1/5 stat hardly surprises me.

 

Dept. of Justice:

Half of the women who reported rapes in 1992 were under the age of 18. 16% were under the age of 12. You're telling me OVERESTIMATION is more likely to be a problem in these cases than UNDERESTIMATION? Are you kidding me? These are young girls. Come. On. Open your eyes.

 

 

Diverting away from just rape:

 

• The primary markers for increased risk for child sexual abuse for girls are having: few friends, absent or unavailable parents, a stepfather and conflict with or between parents.8
  
• Other risk factors include: physical or mental disability; separate living arrangements from both biological parents; mental illness, alcoholic or drug abuse in the family; a parent who was physically or sexually abused as a child; homes with other forms of abuse, prostitution or transient adults.1,2,8,12,13
  
• One study examined eight of these indicators in girls and found sexual abuse histories in 6 percent with no risk factor, 9 percent with one factor; 26 percent with two factors and 68 percent with three factors. Another study found 78 percent of sexually abused children studied had at least three risk factors.13
  

I think this is interesting and can help us target potential victims of rape. The fact that only 6% of child abuse(including rape) happens with none of the risk factors mentioned above, shows us these girls who are predominantly attacked already have conflicted home lives, and are not likely to have a supportive or safe environment- especially not one welcoming an admission such as child abuse or rape.

[CollectiveVelvet]

That's because LEGALLY THEY ARE BOTH RAPE.

 

 

 

That you choose to blame yourself instead of the people who violated you doesn't mean you weren't raped.

 

 

 

That there are more vicious and violent versions of the same crime doesn't mean that the less vicious one isn't a crime.

 

If I consider someone who got a black eye from their spouse a domestic violence victim, that doesn't take away from the terribleness of what happened to the person who got beaten into a bloody pulp by their spouse.

 

 

 

And he's not responsible for stopping when she says no repeatedly? It's all her fault that he's still going even though she made it clear she doesn't want to? Give me a f-ing break.

 

Thank you for making these points. I agree completely.

 

As to the OP, I agree also that images filling the media with stereotypes of women being treated like inanimate objects, this specific instance a credit card machine, it is disturbing and it does effect the way little girls feel about themselves and how they view their self value. It also effects the way some boys come to view and treat women. The answer? I don't know. As long as people continue to watch advertisers will continue to pay for air time and the circle continues.

[sweetjasmine]

I've been reading some of Marsle's posts lately and think there are some fairy tails being told from time to time. No one should be able to tell me what I can or can't watch. Those stats are bs and you ladies know it. If you went to all of your female friends and asked them if they had been raped would 20% say yes? I HIGHLY doubt it.

 

You ignored my post the first time around, so I'll try again.

 

You can't just go and ask your friends a question like that and expect the results to match statistics because what you're doing is NOT A PROPER WAY OF COLLECTING DATA FOR STATISTICAL ANALYSIS. Stop saying that. It's not how it works. The fact that 30% of my friends speak one language and 70% speak two or more doesn't indicate that statistics about Americans' language skills are wrong. It means that MY SAMPLE IS LIMITED AND BIASED.

 

These are the very basics of doing any kind of sociological study. I'd suggest you actually read up on the subject before hand-waving and dismissing statistics just because YOU DON'T LIKE WHAT THEY SAY.

[Kamille]

I don't understand why anyone would argue about the rape statistics. Who cares if it's 20% or 10% or even 5%? Rape is rape. Nothing ever justifies it.

 

(The 5% would have struck me as low considering the fact I know of a few friends rapes and of a few more attempted rapes. And as has been said, those are not details anyone shares easily)

 

All I'm hearing is LS's minority of jaded male posters being made uncomfortable because rape is proof that women don't have it as rosy-peachy as they would like to believe. Sure, it might be hard to be a man in today's society - but guess what, that doesn't mean it's easy to be a woman.

 

This thread, as has been stipulated in both the OP and the video she linked, isn't about gender wars. It's about how both genders are portrayed in problematic gender stereotypes in popular media: in these videos, Jerks get access to objectified female bodies. I understand this thread to be about understanding why these images are so compelling and how they might impact our own lives, wether we be men or women. It isn't about persecuting either gender.

Edited April 24, 2010 by Kamille

[Kamille]

Another note to raise awareness and with all due respect: considering, biology oblige, that the majority of rapists are men, I don't think it's helpful to say that rape is a "women's problem". Rape is clearly a problem that affects us all, men and women, be we victims or perpetrators. That needs to be put on the table. In order to eradicate this problem, both men and women need to be aware, informed and critical of media portrayals of sexual violence.

 

I'm not shifting blame here as only a small minority of men do end up perpetrating rape - I'm stating a fact.

[sweetjasmine]

I don't think it's helpful to say that rape is a "women's problem". Rape is clearly a problem that affects us all, men and women, be we victims or perpetrators. That needs to be put on the table. In order to eradicate this problem, both men and women need to be aware, informed and critical of media portrayals of sexual violence.

 

Agreed 100%. I'd also add that men raping men is a problem that gets completely ignored and brushed aside. Most people are perfectly okay with joking about prison rape or saying things like, "I hope that guy gets it from behind from Big Bubba" when the majority would never say something like that about women being attacked.

[Kamille]

I'd also add that men raping men is a problem that gets completely ignored and brushed aside. Most people are perfectly okay with joking about prison rape or saying things like, "I hope that guy gets it from behind from Big Bubba" when the majority would never say something like that about women being attacked.

 

Great point SJ. If sexual violence against women goes under-reported (and I know for a fact it does), imagine how hard it must be for a man to come forward.

[Mr White]

That makes plenty of sense. In my opinion, a lot of times, the reason why it may be hard to get male support is because we're tired of being the brunt of 90% of women's issues. And it's been that way for a very long time. That's why we get defensive. We get tired of hearing it's a man's world, when that's really not the case.

 

But regardless, I understand that we don't live in fairy land, and that women face a plethora of problems. I'm definitely not here to say they don't.As long as the issue centers around how women can address their problems, and what they can do to improve things, without slandering men, I honestly don't have a single problem with that. We put up with enough slander as it is.

 

 

There you go, the source of the backlash (at least for me). The gender issues have been politicised beyond reason and by now are merely instrument to promote dubious causes - after all, it is easy to blame it on "The Man" . Whatever, but I will not stand to be punished for having done nothing other than being born as a white male.

 

Life is hard - both for women AND men. Get over it. Quit the whining, and then maybe I'll reciprocate with more cooperation (which I already gladly do in the instances when I'm not provoked). In all fairness, things in the workplace and socially usually go smoothly and cooperatively until some dimwit shows up and starts to recite the mantra of how hard women have it.

[sweetjasmine]

Whatever, but I will not stand to be punished for having done nothing other than being born as a white male.

 

How is talking about the prevalence of rape and sexual assault punishing you? Why are you taking it personally?

 

How is it slandering men to point out that a significant percent of women are the victims of rape or attempted rape throughout their lifetimes? Is it slandering men to point out that a significant percent of human beings are the victims of petty theft at some point in their lifetimes? Do you assume that people who discuss crime are trying to slander an entire gender? Why is it different for people talking about rape and sexual assault?

 

Quit the whining

 

How is it whining to talk about rape and sexual assault? How is it whining to discuss the gender stereotypes society perpetuates through media and how it affects individuals' belief systems, perceptions and behaviors?

 

Why do you feel personally attacked and threatened by a conversation on gender roles and expectations that affect everyone?

[Taramere]

Yep, this is one of the most ridiculous "statistics" I've ever seen - whoever uses it deliberately misleads the public. Here's a link to the actual report:

http://ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/182369.pdf

 

and a summary of the results:

 

"As shown, 2.8 percent of the sample had experienced either a completed rape (1.7 percent) or an attempted rape incident (1.1 percent). The victimization rate was 27.7 rapes per 1,000 female students."

 

It is clear that horrible stuff happens, but to insist on a cooked number of "1 in 5" is just a thinly veiled attempt to paint every other man as a criminal.

 

They do state that the "1 in 36 women" figure refers to the incidence of rape or sexual assaults (if one insists that the strict definition of penile/vaginal penetration must be met for the word "rape" to be used) in any one academic year, but they point out on page 10

 

Such a conclusion, however, misses critical, and potentially disquieting, implications. the figures measure victimization for slightly more than half a year (6.91 months). Projecting results beyond this reference period is problematic for a number of reasons, such as assuming that the risk of victimization is the same during the summer months and remains stable over a person's time in college. However, if the 2.8 percent victimization figure is calculated for a 1-year period, the data suggest that nearly 5 percent (4.9 percent) of college women are victimized in any given calendar year. Over the course of a college career - which now lasts an average of 5 years - the percentage of completed or attempted rape victimization among women in higher educational institutions might climb to between one fifth and one quarter.

 

So the one in five college women figure seems a fair projection, assuming that report is a reliable one and based on a complete reading of it.

Edited April 24, 2010 by Taramere

[shadowofman]

Human's are disgusting. I think we could learn a lot from the bonobo.

[shadowofman]

IMO this is a cultural trend that is both perpetuated by women and men. Increased objectification of women increases the female delusion that they are only good as sex objects which further causes men to objectify them. And video in itself is a main cause. Before video, we never had the ability to see so many male "fantasies". Which in themselves are healthy artistic expressions, but tend to be repeated, quite un-creatively, over and over again. Young women that watch these male fantasies will misinterpret the male mind as completely focused on sex, all the time. I think this causes them to view their sexual "gift" as the only reason a man would ever love them.

[Taramere]

IMO this is a cultural trend that is both perpetuated by women and men. Increased objectification of women increases the female delusion that they are only good as sex objects which further causes men to objectify them. And video in itself is a main cause. Before video, we never had the ability to see so many male "fantasies". Which in themselves are healthy artistic expressions, but tend to be repeated, quite un-creatively, over and over again. Young women that watch these male fantasies will misinterpret the male mind as completely focused on sex, all the time. I think this causes them to view their sexual "gift" as the only reason a man would ever love them.

 

Barring technology, I don't know that people and society are so different now from the way they were 200 years ago. You mention that there's a trend towards female objectification, which women are participating in (eg agreeing to feature in objectifying videos, there are now some female directors out there who are responsible for some pretty heavy duty and sadistic porn, etc).

 

I don't think women like that are a new development. 200 years ago women were kidnapping kids and young women, abducting them to brothels and holding them down while male clients raped them. Back then, women like that were thought of as vicious old bawds. Nowadays they're more likely to be termed as pro-porn feminists holding high level positions in the sex industry. Whichever century they inhabit, they're women who recognise that where there's muck there's brass. Who are content to slot into the status quo and reap the financial and/or social benefits for themselves.

 

I recall reading a woman posting on a message board (one that was predominantly geared towards men) that in her sorority one of the popular hazings involved new sorority sisters being stripped naked, stood on a box - and then fraternity brothers from a nearby house would circle all their flaws in marker pens. There was no reprobation in the tone this woman used to describe the hazing. It was more like swaggering, I'd say.

 

So I'm inclined to agree with you that women contribute to scenarios at, for instance, university fraternity parties where the culture of objectifying women is extreme enough to create a high risk of non consensual sex. It's not really any different to the way the bawds of old contributed towards that objectification of their own gender. Yet for some reason, they escape criticism for it because they're women. As though their consent to, and participation in, the objectification of women speaks for all other women.

[shadowofman]

I'm more placing blame on all of us together as a culture. I think the average woman is complacent in this objectification. My consistent opinion on these threads is that women tend not to value themselves as worthy individuals but for their sexuality. I believe the average western woman feels as though sex is the her only hope of attracting a relationship with a man. And I believe the actions of men are misleading women to believe this. I believe visually representing men's fantasies in such abundance has lead women to believe sex is all we are interested in, when the fact of the matter is that we are interested in so much more. So women exaggerate there sexuality to modern extremes. And develop extreme possessive tendencies due to men's tendency to value variety. Not every other attractive female is a threat to a woman relationship. Believe it or not, while a man might want no strings sex with multiple attractive women, that is usually not an indication of a failure to love one woman. And it all spirals downward.

[shadowofman]

I suppose that women in the past might have felt as though all men wanted were sons. And of course there were men like that. And of course there are men today that only value women for sex. I think these were minority subsets of the respective populations. I think the majority of men appreciate women for ALL they have to offer. Even cheating husbands and porn "addicts".

 

Anecdotally, I myself do not do not think that my sexuality is anything special. I do not expect a partner to "have eyes only for me". However, I do think that my emotional and domestic devotion IS something special. Therefore I feel as though my only reason to express possession or insecurity would be toward a perceived emotional affair with or without sex.

 

I have trouble understanding how anyone (male or female) could take their sexuality so seriously. Unless one were trying to impress a total douche whose only focus is sex. And if you do take your sexuality that seriously, then you are contributing to your own objectification and the rampant objectification in society.

[Taramere]

I'm more placing blame on all of us together as a culture. I think the average woman is complacent in this objectification. My consistent opinion on these threads is that women tend not to value themselves as worthy individuals but for their sexuality.

 

I think Western culture encourages and provides opportunities for women to become competent and accomplished in all kinds of areas...and to get a stronger sense of self from doing so. There are certainly men who give out the message that "your accomplishments are meaningless....we're not interested in you for anything beyond sexual purposes", and there are certainly women who allow their mood to be brought down by those messages. That's just a reality of human interaction, though.

 

Most individuals are on a quest for power of some sort. For some it might be simply be a case of wanting power over themselves and their own lives. For others...power over others, as demonstrated in the visual of swiping a credit card over another human being. Or by trying to degrade another person by telling them "your talents and accomplishments don't matter/are nothing compared to mine. Your only worth lies in how sexy I perceive you as being."

[shadowofman]

I don't think the average person is interested in controlling others. But I do believe that women see normal male fantasies and jump to conclusions in regards to all men for all instances. For instance, a man might want "just sex" from a majority of women he meets. But that does not mean he wants "just sex" from every woman he meets. Most of the male fantasies involve being used by an insatiable woman in the same manor that a man would use a woman for "just sex". But these men still love their wives even though the wives might be irrationally threatened by other sexy women.

[Pfiend101]

You ignored my post the first time around, so I'll try again.

 

You can't just go and ask your friends a question like that and expect the results to match statistics because what you're doing is NOT A PROPER WAY OF COLLECTING DATA FOR STATISTICAL ANALYSIS. Stop saying that. It's not how it works. The fact that 30% of my friends speak one language and 70% speak two or more doesn't indicate that statistics about Americans' language skills are wrong. It means that MY SAMPLE IS LIMITED AND BIASED.

 

These are the very basics of doing any kind of sociological study. I'd suggest you actually read up on the subject before hand-waving and dismissing statistics just because YOU DON'T LIKE WHAT THEY SAY.

 

If that's how statistics work then they hold absolutely no value to me. The way I am reading that is 20% of women are victims of attempted rape. Therefore if I go out to people around me say 20. That 4 of them would tell me they have been nearly raped/raped. How could it not mean that? Cut the attitude.

[Hot Carl]

If that's how statistics work then they hold absolutely no value to me. The way I am reading that is 20% of women are victims of attempted rape. Therefore if I go out to people around me say 20. That 4 of them would tell me they have been nearly raped/raped. How could it not mean that? Cut the attitude.

 

I believe the number is that high. There are plenty of women right here on LS who could provide a reasonable sample.

[marsle85]

If that's how statistics work then they hold absolutely no value to me. The way I am reading that is 20% of women are victims of attempted rape. Therefore if I go out to people around me say 20. That 4 of them would tell me they have been nearly raped/raped. How could it not mean that? Cut the attitude.

 

You really don't think if you asked 20 women around you, if answered honestly- 4 of them would say yes? You REALLY don't think this?

 

I think it's a difference of experiences. There is no possible way for you to understand the number because as a man- you're considerably less wary of physical danger. I am in no way saying it doesn't happen- men are attacked, especially as boys. But the overwhelming problem still resides with women.

 

I do not think there is ONE woman on this site, who do not walk, live and breath a heightened awareness of their environment because of potential danger. When I walk into a parking lot (and I mean EVERY. literal. time) I look around, and hold my keys positioned as a defense weapon if needed. And I grew up in a household so unlike many victims of rape. Two protective older brothers, still married parents, suburban, relatively wealthy, ultimately very safe.

 

Every time.

 

Almost in any occasion, women have to be wary. Catcalls by construction workers are an exact example. I'm not saying it's hugely offensive- it's not, but if you can't walk down the street without a suggestion of your sexuality... naturally, this is going to effect how you view your environment and how you approach relationships with men.

 

Ask your sister, mother, aunt, daughter or any woman how often she's approached in a crude manner. You'll be surprised.

[sweetjasmine]

If that's how statistics work then they hold absolutely no value to me. The way I am reading that is 20% of women are victims of attempted rape. Therefore if I go out to people around me say 20. That 4 of them would tell me they have been nearly raped/raped. How could it not mean that? Cut the attitude.

 

Dude, I already explained it. Because your SAMPLE SIZE IS LIMITED AND BIASED. Your sample size is way too small to return anything useful. It's limited to people in your geographical location. You're biased in who you're going to ask even though you're trying to be random. With a sample that small and biased, the probability of getting a distorted picture is very high.

 

You can't conduct an actual scientific study that way.

 

Again, refer to my example. Most of my friends speak more than one language. The numbers for the US indicate a much lower rate of second-language abilities. What's more likely -- that the statistics are wrong or that my sample is small and biased?

 

Please go read about gathering data for statistics. There are processes/procedures you have to follow in order to get figures that are actually accurate and not total junk. I'm not trying to give you attitude, but you shouldn't be insisting that statistical analysis works the way you think it should when you clearly don't know much about it.