Nelly swipes a credit card down the backside of a woman?

[MrNate]

The whole nelly tip drill video problem was like a year and change ago. The girl said it herself she didnt feel disrespected. Even though it was a disrespectful act.. She got compensated for it. I mean come on we got paris hilton making sex tapes and the next day acts like nothing ever happened. God forbid one little rap video with a rapper sliding a credit card down the crack of a woman's ass. Oh the humanity.

 

It's over. move on. it's old news.

 

Yep. The woman willingly chose to go through that. No one made her.

[Woggle]

Yep. The woman willingly chose to go through that. No one made her.

 

Also I remember in 2002 how no song would get women on the dance floor faster than Hot in here.

[Romance]

Girls sign up to be in music videos, just like they do be strippers. They're proud of their bodies and want it to be seen, I guess?

 

I dunno, I don't find it offensive.

 

Also the attempted rape stats are crazy, I don't believe them.

[Stung]

A lot of people seem to be missing the point and twisting this into something it's not. If I'm not mistaken, this thread is about widespread media portrayal of destructive stereotypes which can lead to cultural desensitization, briefly using a particular video as one example of a widespread phenomenon.

 

The point was not to focus in on the solitary woman paid for her performance in the video, the point was not this single video, it was the overall effect on society of continually depicting women as objects and men as violent.

 

BTW Mr. White I have not seen anyone here attempting to equate rape with inappropriate handholding. I'm not sure where that even came from.

[spookie]

in my opinion there's a difference between obvious, violent rape, and "i didn't want him to and kept saying no but he stuck it in anyway" sex. i have been a "victim" of the latter, not once but twice in my life; according to the wording of that survey, both my experiences would qualify as rape.

 

do i consider myself a "rape survivor" because i got involved with these scummy men? hell no... i shouldn't have let the first guy take me home when i was so drunk, and i shouldn't have been messing around with the second guy in the first place.

 

in my opinion grouping me with legit raped in alley type victims takes away from the terribleness of those crimes, not to mention sends the message that women arent responsible for what happens past a meager "no" right before it goes in.

 

just my .02.

[Mr White]

A lot of people seem to be missing the point and twisting this into something it's not. If I'm not mistaken, this thread is about widespread media portrayal of destructive stereotypes which can lead to cultural desensitization, briefly using a particular video as one example of a widespread phenomenon.

 

The point was not to focus in on the solitary woman paid for her performance in the video, the point was not this single video, it was the overall effect on society of continually depicting women as objects and men as violent.

 

BTW Mr. White I have not seen anyone here attempting to equate rape with inappropriate handholding. I'm not sure where that even came from.

 

It came from the "statistic" that "1 in 5" college women have been subject to rape or attempted rape; so, I'm just saying that an absurdly liberal definition of assault is the only way that you could get this "number".

 

As for the general topic - portrayal in the media - I don't approve, but there is clearly a demand for that - from both "genders". As others have pointed, plenty of women are more than happy to use their image to earn a living dancing or whatever - (whatever being an ad agency executive).

 

You can pick ANY aspect of what is portrayed in the media and infer the collapse of culture and civilization (including the portrayal of men a useless dimwits, the portrayal of consumption as path to self-fulfilment, etcetera).

 

In the 21 century, singing the good ol' tune of how horrible men are and how their twisted tastes dominate everything gets kind of old, and no matter how constructively you attempt to pitch it, it always comes across as having an agenda. Let's not forget that advertisment and marketing is one of the top career destinations for young women with college degrees. So, all women working in these industries deserve part of the blame of perpetuating this type of stereotypes.

 

The incident in the park is serious enough to be prosecuted by authorities, plain and simple. But to blame it on "the media" is a typical liberal cliche excuse absolving people from responsibility for their actions (and I say that as a lifelong democrat)

[MrNate]

As for the general topic - portrayal in the media - I don't approve, but there is clearly a demand for that - from both "genders". As others have pointed, plenty of women are more than happy to use their image to earn a living dancing or whatever - (whatever being an ad agency executive).

 

I agree with this.

 

 

In the 21 century, singing the good ol' tune of how horrible men are and how their twisted tastes dominate everything gets kind of old, and no matter how constructively you attempt to pitch it, it always comes across as having an agenda.

 

And it's getting old fast.

[sweetjasmine]

in my opinion there's a difference between obvious, violent rape, and "i didn't want him to and kept saying no but he stuck it in anyway" sex. i have been a "victim" of the latter, not once but twice in my life; according to the wording of that survey, both my experiences would qualify as rape.

 

That's because LEGALLY THEY ARE BOTH RAPE.

 

do i consider myself a "rape survivor" because i got involved with these scummy men? hell no... i shouldn't have let the first guy take me home when i was so drunk, and i shouldn't have been messing around with the second guy in the first place.

 

That you choose to blame yourself instead of the people who violated you doesn't mean you weren't raped.

 

in my opinion grouping me with legit raped in alley type victims takes away from the terribleness of those crimes,

 

That there are more vicious and violent versions of the same crime doesn't mean that the less vicious one isn't a crime.

 

If I consider someone who got a black eye from their spouse a domestic violence victim, that doesn't take away from the terribleness of what happened to the person who got beaten into a bloody pulp by their spouse.

 

not to mention sends the message that women arent responsible for what happens past a meager "no" right before it goes in.

 

And he's not responsible for stopping when she says no repeatedly? It's all her fault that he's still going even though she made it clear she doesn't want to? Give me a f-ing break.

[marsle85]

And it's getting old fast.

 

 

Again. You are MISSING the POINT. I do NOT seek to BLAME men for these music videos - because DESPITE the majority of income being shoveled in by WHITE (non rapper) MEN, by these videos- the true conflict lies in what we choose to watch. I do not view men as horny, disrespectful evil-doers because they enjoy to watch MTV. Nor do I view women as whores or sluts because they enjoy the money they receive for these deeds.

 

What is getting old is this gangster/hoe scene. I'm sick of our role-models being rappers (who probably couldn't even spell 'wrapper') and women who are again and again fawned and idolized in videos- because they're hypersexualized and easy. We are ALL responsible for what children view on TV and hear in music... and we are all burdened by our poor standards of men and women.

 

I understand the Nelly example is OLD. It was an example, and a catchy title. I wanted to discuss the Dreamworlds videos. I do not argue that this is part of our culture, that is a valid claim. What upsets me is how numb we are to this behavior. It does not make it right, and i'm sick of it.

 

I nanny a 4 year old girl and a 6 year old boy. Their parents only play Sirius Child Stations because the four year old came home singing "I kissed a girl and I liked it"

 

Media shock is not something new to our culture. Suggestive dancing and songs are often considered risque to the older generations and hip to youth. There needs to be a line however- I don't think complete censorship is necessary, but the government should take further action to protect children. Common radio stations should not be able to play songs with "bitch" in them (Lady Gaga).

 

I recently saw a music video on MTV, with a woman in a bikini posing suggestively while people threw slices of bologna on her, attempting to position the pieces to stick. I am NOT okay with this. This frightens me.

 

I am in no way ultra conservative, but I do feel we all hold a duty to protect and prolong the relative innocence of children.

[Don'tWannabeAWannabe]

Yes, I believe the studies and surveys I've read by several different credible organizations like the National Institute of Justice and CDC which indicate that the number really is that high. I don't dismiss studies that contradict my preconceived notions about crime rates.

 

 

That statistic was disproved a long time ago. These researchers did NOT ask a lot of girls if they were raped, but if they had ever had a sexual encounter that THEY (the researchers, not the girls) considered "rape."

 

For example, if a girl selected "yes," for having sex as a minor (even if it was with another minor) or having sex under the influence of drugs or alcohol, the researchers considered it rape.

 

If having drunk sex counts as "rape," then I'm a "rape victim."

[sweetjasmine]

Common radio stations should not be able to play songs with "bitch" in them (Lady Gaga).

 

Hearing the word "bitch" isn't going to destroy anyone's childhood. I understand that's not the entirety of your point, but that specific example doesn't work. The problem isn't the word "bitch" (or any swear word) but the attitudes and roles certain parts of pop culture promote. And it's not just rappers and musicians on TV and on the radio. It's everywhere, and most of us don't realize how far and deep some of these attitudes go.

 

And I'd argue that the problem isn't sex/sexuality appearing everywhere but rather the ways in which it appears and the specific attitudes that objectify people or measure all their worth by how sexy they are (and that goes for women and men). In some cultures, it's no big deal to see sex scenes on regular TV while it's a big deal to see violence, but that doesn't mean that sex is necessarily portrayed as a commodity and measure of self-worth.

[marsle85]

That statistic was disproved a long time ago. These researchers did NOT ask a lot of girls if they were raped, but if they had ever had a sexual encounter that THEY (the researchers, not the girls) considered "rape."

 

For example, if a girl selected "yes," for having sex as a minor (even if it was with another minor) or having sex under the influence of drugs or alcohol, the researchers considered it rape.

 

If having drunk sex counts as "rape," then I'm a "rape victim."

 

 

As doubtful as you are of these statistics, i'm inclined to believe the CDC before this claim. I work in research, and I don't know any organization that would EVER allow their stats to be marred by such rubbish.

 

Secondly, as a female- and completely honest: I am not surprised by the 1/5 stat. I know SO many girls who have been raped or sexually forced to do something they didn't want. What is most alarming is not ONE of these girls came out with this information to authorities. As much as you're accounting for overestimation- I think it's much more likely the stats are being underrepresented.

[sweetjasmine]

That statistic was disproved a long time ago. These researchers did NOT ask a lot of girls if they were raped, but if they had ever had a sexual encounter that THEY (the researchers, not the girls) considered "rape."

 

For example, if a girl selected "yes," for having sex as a minor (even if it was with another minor) or having sex under the influence of drugs or alcohol, the researchers considered it rape.

 

If having drunk sex counts as "rape," then I'm a "rape victim."

 

So you clearly didn't read the post where I listed the NIJ/CDC study's criteria for determining a rape/attempted rape victim. Good to know.

 

If you're doing a survey like this, you can't just go around asking people whether they've been raped because there are people who have been raped and don't realize or refuse to accept that what happened to them would legally be considered rape. You also can't ask people if they've raped someone because again, they might not realize or might refuse to accept that what they did would legally be considered rape. People often make the mistake of thinking that it's only rape when you're holding a gun to someone's head.

 

Were they not actually raped just because they don't know what the law says specifically? "No, I wasn't raped - he just kept having sex with me even though I repeatedly said no and asked him to stop" answers wouldn't give you accurate statistics of the actual crime rates. It's still a crime even if you don't think it is.

[Woggle]

I think that parents in general need to stop blaming music for their kid's morals. It is a game that has been going on ever since Elvis shaked his hips and it's getting old. Every generation we seem to have a new batch of people who blame music for all the world's ills. I don't listen to Lady Gaga's music but if conservatives make her their new target then I will firmly be in her corner. Nelly barely has a career anymore and he was the MC Hammer of his time in the sense that he made pop rap. The video is sort of corny but like somebody else said nobody forced these women to be in it.

 

Also what about the media that chooses to sensationalize real life scandals under the guise of news? I find that much more offensive then I do some music video which is only fantasy.

[SomewhatExperienced]

I don't believe that for 5 seconds. Bad stuff happens in the world yes. Is everyone out to treat women like pieces of meat? NO

 

Agree. You have to be careful about how these studies/surveys are put together. If one question is "Has a man ever tried to have unwanted sex with you?", and this is considered raped, then yes I believe 1 in 5 women have had someone try to rape them. But then any guy who tries his chances with a girl is a rapist.

 

Having a man physically force a woman to have sex against her will is rape. Some believe that if she doesn't wanted to, but can't bring herself to say no it is still rape, which I disagree with.

[northstar1]

As doubtful as you are of these statistics, i'm inclined to believe the CDC before this claim. I work in research, and I don't know any organization that would EVER allow their stats to be marred by such rubbish.

 

Secondly, as a female- and completely honest: I am not surprised by the 1/5 stat. I know SO many girls who have been raped or sexually forced to do something they didn't want. What is most alarming is not ONE of these girls came out with this information to authorities. As much as you're accounting for overestimation- I think it's much more likely the stats are being underrepresented.

 

This stat isn't shocking to me at all. Mixing alcohol, 18 year olds, a group/frat mentality, and putting them all into an environment where most are living on their own for the first time means alot of this stuff happens.

 

A good friend of mine is a professor of sociology at university, and teaches courses on sexuality. he is teaching these college kids and he tells me that this number is far from an overestimation.

[Jersey Shortie]

I don't like seeing image projected of a women where it's okay to slide a credit card through her butt cheeks and the guy can walk away singing lighthearted, rapping and struting his stuff.

 

What is that kind of image insinuating? A positive one for women and men? A healthy one? Or is it one that upholds the idea that women are bought and paid to for the man with the biggest wallet? Is that the images we want either boys or girls to see?

 

To me, that kind of image is about power and control. If you are a man with enough money, you can buy a woman with the best body and that's all that matters. It's degrading to both men and women. The only difference is that the woman is shown as the degraded object due to the fact that she is the being purshased and the man is shown as the cool in control manipulator with a cheeky smile and swagger of his hips. However, this image doesn't do much to benefit men either.

 

I'm a little confused why so many people are hard pressed to try and dispute the stastics brought forth about rape instead of actually talking about the real issue as women being sexualied and raped. Do we really need stastics anyway that tell us women are over sexualized and objectified? Does the fact that men also suffer from poor treatement of the media mean we can't discuss each's gender individual experience without it meaning we are ignoring the others?

 

The image reference of Nelly and that women shows a hyper-masculine brutish dispaly of masculinity where a man's worth comes from his swagger and wallet and a woman comes from her body. These are not positive images for either gender and they are all over the place.

 

Just a few comments from other posters I wanted to chime in on:

Or are you guys just being overly skeptical because the fact that women have to live with this sh-t every day is an ugly truth you don't want to accept?

 

And this isn't even touching the issue of under-reporting.

 

Yes, I sadly do think that is sometimes the case. I don't think some people want to admit to the truth in the ugliness and just how often this happens. By admitting that women are devalued in this society doesn't mean that men aren't or that men are evil. Why can't we admit though that women take alot of degrading stuff on and that sometimes, even the men that love us don't mind so much seeing women degraded for sexual benefit?

 

MrNate.

 

No one is saying she did. It's just a vibe. I think threads like these are what start extensive pages of debating.

 

Definitely. These things happen to men as well, they just go unreported. There's a lot of sick people out there.

 

Mr.Nate, weren't you the one that started the male impowerment thread? How come when it comes to something like rape and sexual degrading to women, your response is "oh well it happens and it happens to men too!" Does knowing and talkign about how it happens to women, and at a higher rate then it happens to men, mean we are disrespecting men?

 

 

Sagetalk

 

In defense of the music videos, this behavior is part of our culture (I'm sorry to say). Men who have multiple women draped around them are considered desirable by women. Kindness, honesty, humility, faithfulness, sweetness, are a mocked behavior in males and show a sign of weakness to many females.

 

If being a sweet guy that loved only his girlfriend got rappers/"bad guys" the hottest girls, they would do it in an instant. All they care about is sex, they don't care how they get it. The reason they don't respect women is because it gives them the appearance of being powerful. If they showed women respect. their female options would dwindle (quantity not quality).

 

It's kind of an oxymoron in the idea that men want to be wanted for good qualities like kindness, honesty and humility but only by the "hottest girls" they can find.

 

If men showed women respect, women's opinion wouldn't dwindle. That's only something men tell themselves so they have no responsiblity to themselves to treat women well in my opinion.

 

MrWhite

EVERY woman I know (and I bet - all that I don't know) has been a subject to inappropriate sexual conduct/advances, and if you take this to the extreme, you could easily claim that 100% of women have been "sexually assaulted." -

 

What does that tell us about men if this is the case? If EVERY woman you know, that many of us know has at some point been a victim of inappropiate seuxal conduct/advanced, what does this say about us?

[MrNate]

Jersey jersey... We have to get something straight.

 

Yes, I started the male empowerment thread and I'm proud of it. And I said that about rape because it's TRUE. That's it. I don't make up false statements. I know know women are oversexualized, and men are overvilified. Clearly that indicates problems on both sides. Like you women, I run to the defense of my gender when appropriate. I don't care if the issue of rape is discussed, clearly it's a problem among women, I'm not denying that. In fact, I encourage more awareness of the issue. As long as the discussion doesn't lead towards how men are spineless, horny pigs, and women are completely innocent and helpless, then I'm ok.

 

You're a sweet woman Jersey. Hopefully this answers everything.

[Jersey Shortie]

I thought your male empowerment thread was a good one to start. I wasn’t saying you shouldn’t have started it.

 

And I never got the message from this thread that men are horny spineless pigs and women are completely innocent. It just seems when women try to express the issues they face, we don’t get much male support for the things we deal with.

[MrNate]

I thought your male empowerment thread was a good one to start. I wasn’t saying you shouldn’t have started it.

 

And I never got the message from this thread that men are horny spineless pigs and women are completely innocent. It just seems when women try to express the issues they face, we don’t get much male support for the things we deal with.

 

That makes plenty of sense. In my opinion, a lot of times, the reason why it may be hard to get male support is because we're tired of being the brunt of 90% of women's issues. And it's been that way for a very long time. That's why we get defensive. We get tired of hearing it's a man's world, when that's really not the case.

 

But regardless, I understand that we don't live in fairy land, and that women face a plethora of problems. I'm definitely not here to say they don't.As long as the issue centers around how women can address their problems, and what they can do to improve things, without slandering men, I honestly don't have a single problem with that. We put up with enough slander as it is.

[Jersey Shortie]

Who is being slandered in this thread? I found this thread darn reasonable. And the OP is very articulate.

 

No, you certainly aren't here to say that women don't infact face problems. You're here to say *BUT* what men face is more important and more important to discuss and any discussion about what wome ngo through devalues all the troubles men face. That is why you created a thread about male impowerment and when you came on this thread to talk about how wome nare degraded, you could only go back around to how men are treated. But it's not just you that does it. It's a regular thing on this board with the guys.

 

There is this unwillingnus among men sometimes to even try to touch on the things women go through. Even in your posting where you say that I make sense and you get it, you still wrap it up by what men need and go through first. Women might get treated that way BUT what men experience is worse is what I get from your postings.

 

My point is, that we can't do it alone and when women try express their side of things, we don't want to be met with "but this is what men go through!" We sincerely want understanding from men on why we feel devalued. We understand that men face their own issues. And by addressing the issues one gender faces doesn't mean we are ignoring or devaluing the issues another face.

 

All too often that is what it comes down to on these boards. Even in this thread where the OP is talking about the devaluation of not just women, but of men, and how women are infact RAPED, the response boarder along the lines of trying to deminish the statisics, blaming women for dressing more slutty, or deminish women's experiences based on what men go through. That's not right.

 

I think the point the OP is trying to make is that both men and women are devalued in these examples of the media. And that they are ever increasing. And it would be great if instead of saying "but this is what happens to me!" but genders could open their minds and see that women aren't lying just because they said they got raped. And they aren't saying all men are scum by giving out data about the number of women that are sexually assulted or negatively depicted in the media.

 

I don't know a more negative depiction of a woman then having her in a movie video while a man swipes a credit card down her butt. I also don't expect most men to have the same reaction because after all, you're not the one being devalued so humilatingly. I don't care that the woman agreed to do it. I think the image is a purposely humilating one that many men were most likely titilated by.

[marsle85]

That makes plenty of sense. In my opinion, a lot of times, the reason why it may be hard to get male support is because we're tired of being the brunt of 90% of women's issues. And it's been that way for a very long time. That's why we get defensive. We get tired of hearing it's a man's world, when that's really not the case.

 

But regardless, I understand that we don't live in fairy land, and that women face a plethora of problems. I'm definitely not here to say they don't.As long as the issue centers around how women can address their problems, and what they can do to improve things, without slandering men, I honestly don't have a single problem with that. We put up with enough slander as it is.

 

I'm glad to see we're starting on the same page, as I intended at the beginning of the thread. I completely agree men are held accountable for the majority of conflicting issues, and the modern man (who has really nothing to do with the decisions of his ancestors) is being dragged in the mud. This is the case in many race disputes, as well. I can personally contest - my parents have certain associations with certain races and ethnicities, and I do not relate to them AT ALL. Because my experiences with discrimination have been so small, compared to that of my parents- when I see prejudice, I can hardly believe its existence. We have evolved. But like my parents, the modern man is being held accountable for his father, and the father before hand.

 

So, I get it. And I understand, but the safety of women (or ANY gender) shouldn't be compromised and ignored, just because the modern guy is "tired of hearing it". Rape of women is not a rarity. It's VERY common, and it's a significant problem. This thread STARTED with the intention of solving these problems.

 

The argument that "women put themselves in that situation, so who cares" is irrelevant. It's not hard to find someone that will be paid to disgraceful things on film. I hardly think boys benefit from the so called "role models" provided by media either. It's the viewers that suffer the greatest harm.

 

I think that parents in general need to stop blaming music for their kid's morals. It is a game that has been going on ever since Elvis shaked his hips and it's getting old. Every generation we seem to have a new batch of people who blame music for all the world's ills.

 

I COMPLETELY disagree. There are huge differences in modern media and your example. Firstly, the material. Secondly, the amount of advertisements, and methods of obtaining media have far exceeded television. Children are being exposed to risque images, music, and films on TV, cellphones, on the web. Our censorship has become ineffective in movies and sitcoms. Plus, the FILTER is nearly nonexistant on the internet. You can access literally ANYTHING on the web.

 

Your argument is what is old. Look around.

[Woggle]

I have hard a few women on here ask why more men are not willing to go to bat for them and I think Nate said it perfectly. Many men feel put on the defensive and when anybody feels like that the natural reaction is to defend yourself. You can't spit in a person's face and then ask why they don't have your back and that is how many feminists come across to men even if that is not the case.

[marsle85]

I have hard a few women on here ask why more men are not willing to go to bat for them and I think Nate said it perfectly. Many men feel put on the defensive and when anybody feels like that the natural reaction is to defend yourself. You can't spit in a person's face and then ask why they don't have your back and that is how many feminists come across to men even if that is not the case.

 

 

Jeesh. Feminism promotes the equality of men AND women. I'm just as sick of people associating feminists with the extremists. Look it up. I'm not saying there aren't feminists who take it to another level- but for the most part, feminism wrongfully gets a bad name.

[Woggle]

Jeesh. Feminism promotes the equality of men AND women. I'm just as sick of people associating feminists with the extremists. Look it up. I'm not saying there aren't feminists who take it to another level- but for the most part, feminism wrongfully gets a bad name.

 

Feminism does wrongly get a bad name but the misandrists who fly the feminist flag are partially to blame for that.