pureinheart Posted April 22, 2010 Posted April 22, 2010 The "I can do anything I want" ethos is real enough, and you are right in criticizing it. However, I think you misidentify the real source of the problem. The desire for instant self-gratification isn't a relic of the hippie counterculture. It is a by-product of the all-powerful, all-pervasive "free market." Almost from birth, we are carpet-bombed by an advertising culture that tells us to spend, spend, spend rather than save. The free market glorifies competition at the expense of cooperation. It casts the ruthless pursuit of personal wealth as a virtue and calls it "ambition." It tells us the key to happiness lay not in cultivating meaningful human relationship, but in buying the "best" products. Sorry, but the hippies are not to blame here. LOL...being a sixties baby...knowing from first hand experience, the hippies were mainly concerned with getting high, meaning mind altering substances.
pureinheart Posted April 22, 2010 Posted April 22, 2010 Fair enough . I just have a pet peeve about the hippies (typically well-off middle class kids who could AFFORD not to give e ****...). Beyond that, you're right - the consumer culture fuels this problem since it preys on the delusional idea that the easiest way to feed a fantasy about yourself is to buy something that will make you more like your imaginary self. And since you can buy anything, hence the pervasive delusion that "anything is possible" But anyway, with the demise of "roles" and "typical paths" (not a bad thing, but bad when taken to the extreme), people are increasingly lost, atomized, and unable to forge relationships; after all "anything goes", and whenever anything goes, by definition there are no clear milestones and agreed-upon goals. More to the point of expectations of men - by and large the social expectation is that men are pretty much stuck in their traditional roles of strong and providers. I would have no problem with that if the expectation of women had also remained to be subservient and domestic. Since this is clealry not the case, it is basically unfair to keep men pigeonholed in the same role. I have no problem being the classic he-man if I know that when I go home I'm the king - which is where the separation of roles and labor comes in. However, since this is clearly undesirable and mysoginistic (by today's standard), I can clearly no longer have such an expectation (and shouldn't anyway). That's fair, as long as I am also no longer expected to be the "classic man". Instead, I am contemporary man who expects his woman to shoulder half of everything, provide emotional support, and all that. Unfortunately, expecting this gets you in just as much trouble as expecting traditional domestic behaviors from a woman. Hence, the perception of unfair expectations of men. Both you and ADF have excellent points... Being in the midst of this "revolution", as child during this stuff, it was quite confusing... It seemed as if society began to split drastically.. I agreed with issues on both sides, although it seemed like there was no happy medium. I really thank both of you and the OP for this very thought provoking topic...it has opened a door of understanding the confusion I have experienced and walked in at times...Thank you.
Author MrNate Posted April 22, 2010 Author Posted April 22, 2010 The single most important societal expectation of men is strength, both physical and emotional/intellectual. If you're a weak person, especially emotionally/intellectually, you're not going far in this world. The sad but honest truth. Women are expected to have it together in the outside, while men are expected to have it together on the inside. No gender has it easier than the other, despite what the media, etc tries to portray. So while we may hear about women being pressured to look a certain way; there is an equal amount of pressure on men to act a certain way. Both have their challenges.
Author MrNate Posted April 22, 2010 Author Posted April 22, 2010 @ mr white : I'll have to agree, which is why I think to a certain extent, the gender pendulum has swung a bit too far, and is why I think there needs to be a legitimate men's movement. The problems men face today are rarely, if ever, expressed, and I think they're becoming too huge to just sit back and be expected to just suck it up. We sure can't rely on Oprah or Tyra Banks either.
Crusoe Posted April 22, 2010 Posted April 22, 2010 Mr Nate, part of that "expected" strength is the ability to be your own man, that means you don't allow society to dictate who you are, how you should act or what you should look like. Become pressurized into doing that and you are a sheep, not a man. Think for yourself, be yourself, walk your own path and cock a snook at anyone who doesn't like it.
Author MrNate Posted April 22, 2010 Author Posted April 22, 2010 Mr Nate, part of that "expected" strength is the ability to be your own man, that means you don't allow society to dictate who you are, how you should act or what you should look like. Become pressurized into doing that and you are a sheep, not a man. Think for yourself, be yourself, walk your own path and cock a snook at anyone who doesn't like it. Nicely put! And I'd have to agree. But sadly, I think today, this idea is fading very quickly. Which again is why I advocate a men's movement.
Mr White Posted April 23, 2010 Posted April 23, 2010 Mr Nate, part of that "expected" strength is the ability to be your own man, that means you don't allow society to dictate who you are, how you should act or what you should look like. Become pressurized into doing that and you are a sheep, not a man. Think for yourself, be yourself, walk your own path and cock a snook at anyone who doesn't like it. Um, expect the ability to be your own man is already expected by society . If we're going to discount any thing that's socially expected, why leave that out:laugh:? Pretending to be above "social expectations" is one of the most snobbish (and grossly misinformed) pretenses; also demonstrates complete lack of self-awareness.
Woggle Posted April 23, 2010 Posted April 23, 2010 Um, expect the ability to be your own man is already expected by society . If we're going to discount any thing that's socially expected, why leave that out:laugh:? Pretending to be above "social expectations" is one of the most snobbish (and grossly misinformed) pretenses; also demonstrates complete lack of self-awareness. I don't know if I am above expectations but I do not let them dictate how I should live my life. I have my true friends, the love of my life and everything else I can ask for and that is all I need in this world.
Mr White Posted April 23, 2010 Posted April 23, 2010 I don't know if I am above expectations but I do not let them dictate how I should live my life. I have my true friends, the love of my life and everything else I can ask for and that is all I need in this world. Sure, but it's a matter of extent. Having a wife, family, and good friends is also a part of the prevailing expectations/benchmarks of success/life pathway. (And there is nothing wrong with that.)
Woggle Posted April 23, 2010 Posted April 23, 2010 Sure, but it's a matter of extent. Having a wife, family, and good friends is also a part of the prevailing expectations/benchmarks of success/life pathway. (And there is nothing wrong with that.) Very true but I did it on my own terms and if I never met her or a woman of the same quality I would have no issue whatsoever staying single instead of ending up like some of the guys I know.
Crusoe Posted April 23, 2010 Posted April 23, 2010 Pretending to be above "social expectations" is one of the most snobbish (and grossly misinformed) pretenses; also demonstrates complete lack of self-awareness. I don't think anyone is talking about being above society Mr White.
terra Posted April 23, 2010 Posted April 23, 2010 So while we may hear about women being pressured to look a certain way; there is an equal amount of pressure on men to act a certain way. Both have their challenges. I don't think we will ever evolve past that. Men look for fertility - indicated by a woman's appearance - young, certain hip-waist ratio, shinny hair, ect. Woman look for men with resources to take care of her and her offspring. As much as we debate if this is right or wrong it's part of our genetics and I think we often fail to recognize how strong of a force this is. (note: I'm not saying that we need to live up to culturally defined sterotypes I'm just saying that we need to acknowledge our biological differences)
espec10001 Posted April 23, 2010 Posted April 23, 2010 I don't think that is possible for many men. Why not? I'd say part of being a man is learning his limits. Do you want to understand what a man's movement is? It is War. Do you know why so many men are kept down and unable to find women or are unable to secure the necessary resources to raise children and care for a woman? It is because of other men, and what other men have done to oppress you, what other men take from you. A man's movement is to destroy another man's oppression over him. You will then say that it is only the man himself that is to blame, not other men. In a sense this is true, but only when the man himself can overcome internal division can he conquer external division.
Author MrNate Posted April 23, 2010 Author Posted April 23, 2010 I don't think we will ever evolve past that. Men look for fertility - indicated by a woman's appearance - young, certain hip-waist ratio, shinny hair, ect. Woman look for men with resources to take care of her and her offspring. As much as we debate if this is right or wrong it's part of our genetics and I think we often fail to recognize how strong of a force this is. (note: I'm not saying that we need to live up to culturally defined sterotypes I'm just saying that we need to acknowledge our biological differences) I'd have to agree with that terra.
Author MrNate Posted April 23, 2010 Author Posted April 23, 2010 Why not? I'd say part of being a man is learning his limits. Do you want to understand what a man's movement is? It is War. Do you know why so many men are kept down and unable to find women or are unable to secure the necessary resources to raise children and care for a woman? It is because of other men, and what other men have done to oppress you, what other men take from you. A man's movement is to destroy another man's oppression over him. You will then say that it is only the man himself that is to blame, not other men. In a sense this is true, but only when the man himself can overcome internal division can he conquer external division. Very interesting. I've never thought about it that way. That's why I advocate a man's movement, to address these internal issues, so we can solve a lot of the external issues. Not the war part lol
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