What's worse - the affair or the lying?

[fooled once]

Bent has a great post in this forum about forgiveness = reconciliation

 

One thing I noticed is a lot of betrayed spouses said they forgave the affair, but had a hard time or couldn't forgive the lying.

 

This is strange to me. You forgive the cheater for screwing someone else, but you have a hard time or can't forgive them for lying.

 

I think I would have a harder time forgiving the cheating because to me, being a cheater = being a liar and they go hand in hand.

 

Thoughts?

[Blindsidedagainalive]

For me, it's the ****ing that bothers me the most.

[2sunny]

i think it was the extent of the lies and cover up he managed for an extended period of time that was hardest.

 

how could he pretend each day like he was doing nothing - meanwhile he's making great efforts to be sure he bought her gifts, corresponded, arranged meeting up out of the area etc.

 

it takes a ton of effort, energy and passion for something to pull that off. when i consider what lengths he went to - in order to keep up the facade it makes me sick to my stomach that we were still having sex every day through it all. he was being nice and cozy with me. i could never trust him after that great acting job... why should i? he wasn't even will to be honest when caught red handed.

 

ONLY after he was stuck was he trying to repair the damage. too little too late for a man that wasn't sorry he did it... only sorry he got caught.

 

the lies and what that entails is all encompassing...

[seibert253]

Cheating and lying do go hand and hand.

 

But, one's character shows on how they react after they screwed up.

 

Admitting your misgivings, owning up to your sh#t, and being quickly remorseful are one thing. But continuing to lie and having delayed remorse after being caught, that's another.

 

I've gotten over that fact that my FWW had an inappropriate physical and emotional relationship with the OM. I'll probably never truly ever get over the fact that she lied and deceived me during the affair, and even after being caught and confronted. Only did she admit wrong when the facts were in black and white, right in front of her face. True remorse didn't come until even later.

I don't think I'll ever fully forgive her for that.

[Samantha0905]

Cheating and lying do go hand and hand.

 

But, one's character shows on how they react after they screwed up.

 

But couldn't the same be said about how someone reacts once they feel someone they love has screwed up?

Edited April 20, 2010 by Samantha0905

[bentnotbroken]

It depends on the day of the week. The actual sex could have cost me my life....Thank God it didn't. The lying.....the lies that made me doubt my own sanity. The lies that almost pushed me to commit suicide. The lies that my children heard. Give me a time to think about it:o

[seren]

For me the lies and the betrayal of my trust are the things that cause me most angst. I had absolute trust that if H wanted someone else he would tell me and I would have the choice of whether I accepted it or not. It was also the sharing of our life with someone else, the telling of what was happening to us. The OW didn't factor so much after D Day (he told me) but the trust breaking was our issue and still is some days.

 

The saying by some OW/OM that the married person is waiting until (add whatever) tells me that there is such a lack of respect for the BS, the choosing by other people of how another's life will pan out just doesn't compute with me. Especially when the MP keeps up a facade at home. I can understand the falling in love with someone else - then leave, I can understand sex, then be honest, but the lying (to OM/OW too) is just despicable.

[boomboom63]

For me it was the lying - the flat denial of anything going on whilst making out I was depressed ( and therefore had "the problem") to everyone else - family, work, kids etc.

 

 

And I'm with Bent on the driving me to contemplate suicide - it would have been my choice to actually do it but I had an overwhelming urge because at that time I truly felt that it would have been better for everyone if I simply wasn't alive - my self worth was in tatters because I felt way worse than second best.

 

It has been a long and painful journey to realise that her decisions at the time were entirely her own choices - and that I wasn't responsible for those choices at all - whilst I am not entirely blameless for any lack of communication in our marriage she decided to not face her unhappiness and talk to me. Her choice was to talk to someone that she wanted to have an affair with about what an unattractive tosser I was and how unhappy her marriage was (hmm ......that old chestnut!!) and he responded by telling her about how unattractive his wife was etc etc.

 

so yeah it was the lying, blameshifting, denial and half truths that were the worst. When I put it all together and confronted her she at last admitted it all in full and the sense of relief was enormous because I knew my gut instinct was right. We are still working on it now over 2 years later and it's going OK - good days and bad days.

[jennie-jennie]

My exSO used to be a serial cheater. What I felt was worse was the addictive behavior. Eventually he got it under control just like he got his alcoholism under control.

 

The laying awake at nights waiting for him to come home, fearing he was once again with another woman - that was torture.

 

The lying not so much, you know you are dealing with that when your partner is an addict protecting his drug. The truth always came out eventually.

[Spark1111]

When you love and trust someone, you support them if they have to work late (HER) take a business trip out of town (HER), have to end a phone call abruptly because the boss is calling (HER AGAIN).

 

It is so humiliating to discover that someone else is the priority in your spouse's emotional life and that you have been gaslighted for so long by someone you loved and trusted above all others "to have your back."

 

I am mature enough to realize that we can develop romantic feelings for someone else, and as much as that might have hurt me to hear, the mature thing to do would have been to separate, go to counseling and see if we had a marriage worth saving, while we explored other relationships.

 

I would have respected him for his honesty. But then it wouldn't have been illicit and oh so dramatically passionate, I guess.

 

And there is no way he could have handled me "dating" other men, no way!

 

So the discovery that your partner, who is actively ignoring you, is having sex with someone else is mind-blowingly devastating.

 

But what lingers in the aftermath is the deceptions and lies and energy it took to keep it all secret.....from me! My lover treating me like an enemy with lies, lies, lies.

 

I would have let him go to be with her.....but I do not believe he wanted me to experience the same hormonal rush with a new man if we had separated. He did not want to lose his family life.

 

He almost lost it anyway, because it was all about him, him, him.

[jennie-jennie]

When you love and trust someone, you support them if they have to work late (HER) take a business trip out of town (HER), have to end a phone call abruptly because the boss is calling (HER AGAIN).

 

It is so humiliating to discover that someone else is the priority in your spouse's emotional life and that you have been gaslighted for so long by someone you loved and trusted above all others "to have your back."

 

I am mature enough to realize that we can develop romantic feelings for someone else, and as much as that might have hurt me to hear, the mature thing to do would have been to separate, go to counseling and see if we had a marriage worth saving, while we explored other relationships.

 

I would have respected him for his honesty. But then it wouldn't have been illicit and oh so dramatically passionate, I guess.

 

And there is no way he could have handled me "dating" other men, no way!

 

So the discovery that your partner, who is actively ignoring you, is having sex with someone else is mind-blowingly devastating.

 

But what lingers in the aftermath is the deceptions and lies and energy it took to keep it all secret.....from me! My lover treating me like an enemy with lies, lies, lies.

 

I would have let him go to be with her.....but I do not believe he wanted me to experience the same hormonal rush with a new man if we had separated. He did not want to lose his family life.

 

He almost lost it anyway, because it was all about him, him, him.

 

This pattern of the MM reminds me of the boy going behind his mother's back, trying to look good in her eyes. I do think it is immature of them. They believe they are mature because they continue to take responsibility and do what they consider their duty. The question is what is adult behavior: doing your duty or facing the sometimes difficult challenges life hands us.

[bentnotbroken]

For me it was the lying - the flat denial of anything going on whilst making out I was depressed ( and therefore had "the problem") to everyone else - family, work, kids etc.

 

 

And I'm with Bent on the driving me to contemplate suicide - it would have been my choice to actually do it but I had an overwhelming urge because at that time I truly felt that it would have been better for everyone if I simply wasn't alive - my self worth was in tatters because I felt way worse than second best.

 

It has been a long and painful journey to realise that her decisions at the time were entirely her own choices - and that I wasn't responsible for those choices at all - whilst I am not entirely blameless for any lack of communication in our marriage she decided to not face her unhappiness and talk to me. Her choice was to talk to someone that she wanted to have an affair with about what an unattractive tosser I was and how unhappy her marriage was (hmm ......that old chestnut!!) and he responded by telling her about how unattractive his wife was etc etc.

 

so yeah it was the lying, blameshifting, denial and half truths that were the worst. When I put it all together and confronted her she at last admitted it all in full and the sense of relief was enormous because I knew my gut instinct was right. We are still working on it now over 2 years later and it's going OK - good days and bad days.

 

Lord have mercy! I could have written this post. You are me without boobies:laugh: Or I am you without a weeny:p Either way, I felt everyone would be better off without me because he had told them all about how man and unreasonable I was.

[bentnotbroken]

The sex itself can just be attributed to animal instinct and weakness. We're animals, after all. So to a certain extent forgiveness can be rationalized. To a certain extent.

 

Lying, covering up, deceit is motivated by the thinking part of the brain, not the primitive instinctual part. That's why it can be harder to forgive.

 

 

I understand the evolutionary theory of things, but I am not now nor will I ever be on the same level with an animal. I may be a mammal, but I am a rational, thinking, reasoning adult. I able to control base level instincts. If I weren't there would be dead people in my wake on a daily basis. ( Stupid pisses me off and I don't think they should be allowed to procreate:rolleyes:) I would take the things that I want instead of working for them. I would walk out of the house naked everyday as I do like walking around my home birthday suit. So my instincts say to do one thing, my ability to think and decide the best course of action for all involved should say another.

[Snowflower]

Interesting thread. I can relate to most, if not all the posts here.

 

For me, it was the actual affair. But then again, my H didn't gaslight me either. Sure, he told me lies. Affairs by their very nature involve lying. But I wasn't lied to the same extent as others I have read about here. And I was 'lucky' enough not to have to deal with the trickle-truth.

 

I think my H lied to himself most of all and that is where hurtful behavior was shown to me. A few posters mention how much their WS minimized or 'trashed' them to their AP. I think that is what hurt me most of all. The true betrayal. It was like somehow I didn't matter to my H during that time. I knew something was wrong but I didn't know what.

 

Now I realize that my H had to lie to himself to be an affair. He had to minimize me in his own mind to allow himself to do what he was doing. I picked up on this right away but I didn't, at that time, understand why.

 

It took me a long time to understand this afterward. And this aspect--that I felt like I ceased to exist for him and that he no longer 'had my back' that still hurts the most.

 

So yes, the A and his actions that stemmed from it hurt me worse than the lying.

[Spark1111]

Interesting thread. I can relate to most, if not all the posts here.

 

For me, it was the actual affair. But then again, my H didn't gaslight me either. Sure, he told me lies. Affairs by their very nature involve lying. But I wasn't lied to the same extent as others I have read about here. And I was 'lucky' enough not to have to deal with the trickle-truth.

 

I think my H lied to himself most of all and that is where hurtful behavior was shown to me. A few posters mention how much their WS minimized or 'trashed' them to their AP. I think that is what hurt me most of all. The true betrayal. It was like somehow I didn't matter to my H during that time. I knew something was wrong but I didn't know what.

 

Now I realize that my H had to lie to himself to be an affair. He had to minimize me in his own mind to allow himself to do what he was doing. I picked up on this right away but I didn't, at that time, understand why.

 

It took me a long time to understand this afterward. And this aspect--that I felt like I ceased to exist for him and that he no longer 'had my back' that still hurts the most.

 

So yes, the A and his actions that stemmed from it hurt me worse than the lying.

 

Snow, I agree. It is the lonliest feeling in the world to be....invisible to the person you love most in the world.

 

And yes, he lied to me and he lied to her, but he lied to himself most of all so he could continue in the affair and feel as guiltless as possible.

 

It explains why she so despises me two years later.

 

I think that self-delusion of his must be the hardest thing to overcome now; what he said about me, how he portrayed us and his home life to her to justify his actions.

 

Forgive that? Don't think so. For that he can go to hell forever, IMHO.

 

We are a wonderful, fortunate, well-respected family, and if he WOULDN't see it to help excuse his actions, well....what a dope.

[fooled once]

Thank you guys so much for your words/thoughts.

 

As I have never been in your shoes (and I pray to God I never am), I needed to see/feel what you go through.

 

Bent and Boom -- your words brought tears to my eyes because of what you had to go through all because someone couldn't be honest, keep their legs shut or their pants on. There is a special place for liars and cheats..and it isn't heaven. I am sorry both of you had to go through what you did.

[on1wheel]

To add my 2 cents worth...Canadian money @ par???

For me it's both...they go hand in hand. The fact that she let another man share her most intimate experiences...willingly. Then came home & did they same with me, like nothing was wrong with that. Then when I suspected it, she just lied & lied &ied to my face.

A woman that had sworn that she would never do that to me, as I had it done to me by a previous fiancè. We had a deal that if either of us wanted to have sex with someone else that bad, that we would tell the other person & allow them to say yes or no & end the marriage. That I could have respected.

But what I have now is an intense distrust & a lack of respect for her. She tries sooooo hard to try & make it up to me everyday & I tryly believe that she will never do it again, (she went NC as far as I know & was deeply remorsefull as soon as she was caught) but I now know what she is truly capable of if she chooses to wander.

I feel as if the woman I married has died, but I make the best of this 2nd marriage so to speak. I still suffer everyday from the sadness & the betrayal, but we had a 19 month old innocent baby that relied on me to protect her from harm.

The point is that the sex hurts me more I guess, as the lies were to try & hide it. She willingly had sex with another man while having sex with me still; she could have killed me with a disease she picked up.

[nichole2004]

this is the way i see it. Lying is the worst. It means he has no respect for me. If my man would come up to me and say hey there is this girl im kinda interested in.....

 

Now dont get me wrong I would be very upset, but at least he cared for me enough and respected me as a person enough to tell me the truth.

 

This dosent mean that i would stay with him either, but at least the relationship would end on better terms then if both the cheating and the lying took place

[bentnotbroken]

this is the way i see it. Lying is the worst. It means he has no respect for me. If my man would come up to me and say hey there is this girl im kinda interested in.....

 

Now dont get me wrong I would be very upset, but at least he cared for me enough and respected me as a person enough to tell me the truth.

 

This dosent mean that i would stay with him either, but at least the relationship would end on better terms then if both the cheating and the lying took place

 

 

So true. So true.

[2sure]

For me, it certainly wasnt the sex . The lies were a much larger issue, although the lies themselves were simply the result of the biggest issue:

 

He was making decisions and choices that directly affected my marriage, family, and life without my being a part of them or even aware of them. Meanwhile, I was making decisons and choices affecting my marriage, family and life ...but I was using false information.

 

The rest of the bs , who cares, his problem. I HAVE to know where I stand, this is MY life...if I dont know where I stand with my spouse , my partner....then what the hell? And how dare he.

[bentnotbroken]

For me, it certainly wasnt the sex . The lies were a much larger issue, although the lies themselves were simply the result of the biggest issue:

 

He was making decisions and choices that directly affected my marriage, family, and life without my being a part of them or even aware of them. Meanwhile, I was making decisons and choices affecting my marriage, family and life ...but I was using false information.

 

The rest of the bs , who cares, his problem. I HAVE to know where I stand, this is MY life...if I dont know where I stand with my spouse , my partner....then what the hell? And how dare he.

 

 

This is the issue I have with those waywards who never disclose. It irks the hell out of me that they some how feel that not only have the right to cheat, but decide for the BS if they get to make choices about their own lives. It leaves one partner in complete control. They have all the pieces to the puzzle and they know what the big picture is. They get to choose if they will cheat again, and whether or not to disclose again. There is a pattern of disrespect. I have read on here that they are protecting the "family and the marriage". I always find that very amusing and extremely sad. Amusing because they convince themselves that they are in protection mode. Must keep the family safe from the pain of knowing about my indiscretions. Yet the entire time the BS is "sleeping with the enemy". The biggest threat is the WS themselves, but they don't view themselves that way. They appear to cast themselves in the role of "savior, hero, protector of the marriage"

 

The sad part is the BS's is making plans and caring for someone who doesn't have their best interest at heart. More times than not the WS is sitting somewhere pining for the AP and wishing and wondering what is going on with the their freak partner. The BS may feel something is off, may ask, may even blame themselves. Who many WS do you think actually sit down with their BS and say, "honey, I know things aren't the best right now, but it is all me. You don't have anything to do with my mess?" I would wager not many. It's too easy to let things ride because they feel as if they have gotten away with it. Yet they expect these wonderful healthy relationships to abound without putting in the ingredients to do so.

 

When you bake a cake, if you put in all the right ingredients it will turn out pretty damn good. It may be a little tilted, have a sink in the middle but it taste good and is enjoyed. But if you leave out one of the key ingredients, not only does the cake look like crap, most of the time the eater can't stomach the mess It will sit there until it starts to decay or someone decides to toss it out. The WS is the only one who gets to make that choice, yet this is marriage between two people. Some how that just seems.....wrong.

 

The WS views it as only their life. It really doesn't include the BS and what they may want, or that they may want to chose their WS again on their own. Those BS who don't know are in marriages by default. They don't have another choice. They are in essence forced to be something they aren't. Sad, really sad all because of the fear of facing the consequences of lives that ONE has chosen to live.

[davisc123]

Being made second best by the one you trust. In the weeks leading to our initial breakup her behaviour towards me changed dramatically. Not realising why I desperately tried everything in my means just to see her smiling at me affectionately when I walked into the room. Just to be happy to see me would have been enough as her change in attitude had me going out of my mind with worry.

 

When I eventually found out that my efforts at the time were futile because she was saving all her smiles and affection for someone else, it totally shattered my self esteem. Finding out she had slept with him was and still is a horrible thought. But the web of lies that kept the truth from me was far worse.