Author shadowplay Posted April 14, 2010 Author Posted April 14, 2010 Very well said. These things need to be worked on but Shadow you have to learn how to hold on to your view of yourself in a healthy way without letting someone else's view override it. Good point, but to play the devil's advocate, why is his view of me any less valid?
CollectiveVelvet Posted April 14, 2010 Posted April 14, 2010 Good point, but to play the devil's advocate, why is his view of me any less valid? Not saying his view is not valid for him.... but your trust and strength in yourself should ALWAYS be on firm ground. You can do the work for yourself but need to have a clear, solid picture of yourself to know wether you are bending toward your desire or someone else's.
CLC2008 Posted April 14, 2010 Posted April 14, 2010 Gee, thanks for making me feel terrible. WTF? I never told him I viewed him as needy, that I felt temporarily repulsed by his appearance, that I disliked his family (which isn't even true), and I kissed him all the time...it just wasn't my favorite thing to do. That was not my intention. Like I said in a different thread of yours, I do not agree with his actions or his behavior towards you after the fact. I stand by that 100%. But I also hope you can see things from a different perspective, and that you can get beyond this...And you will
Els Posted April 14, 2010 Posted April 14, 2010 As he described it, the feeling is that he can't be in a relationship with me without constantly, constantly being plagued with worry about me to the point that he can't even function on a basic level. I'll never really understand this, since my anxiety/insecurity didn't come up often, especially compared to my past relationships. SP, this part scares me because it's true for my bf as well, except not in such an extreme manner. I think the thing about such people is that they tend to internalize all your problems and turn it into some failing of theirs, before coming to the very irrational conclusion that this (their own worry about the girl, which the girl had never even wanted to such a degree in the first place) is making them miserable and they shouldn't have to be miserable in a relationship if it was a good one (like when he thought your relationship was 'perfect'), and then they just break and say to hell with everything. Having family brainwashing them sure doesn't help either. I realize that was extremely disorganized and rambling, but I do hope you get what I mean.
Author shadowplay Posted April 14, 2010 Author Posted April 14, 2010 SP, this part scares me because it's true for my bf as well, except not in such an extreme manner. I think the thing about such people is that they tend to internalize all your problems and turn it into some failing of theirs, before coming to the very irrational conclusion that this (their own worry about the girl, which the girl had never even wanted to such a degree in the first place) is making them miserable and they shouldn't have to be miserable in a relationship if it was a good one (like when he thought your relationship was 'perfect'), and then they just break and say to hell with everything. Having family brainwashing them sure doesn't help either. I realize that was extremely disorganized and rambling, but I do hope you get what I mean. Be careful, El. I had NO idea my boyfriend worried so much about me, none whatsoever. He may worry more than you think. But at the same time, it's statistically unlikely that he's as fcked up as mine was.
make me believe Posted April 14, 2010 Posted April 14, 2010 THIS GUY IS SUCH A JERK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Omg!!!! I was honestly getting pissed off reading your post!! I sincerely hope that was your last talk with him, because I don't see how it was any different than any other of your talks. ALL he is doing is continuously placing the blame on you!! He still has not taken ANY responsiblity for his actions! I also saw that he did care and feel pain. REALLY? Because I didn't get that at all from your post. What I got was that he had fun played the martyr and making you feel like sh*t once again. he got really into it and requested that we do things we had never done but he had always wanted to (like go down on me) He didn't go down on you during your relationship? Geez girl, that would've been reason enough to break up with him! It doesn't surprise me though, given how immature and selfish he is. he can't be in a relationship with me without constantly, constantly being plagued with worry about me to the point that he can't even function on a basic level. OMFG. That is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever read on here. Wow, this guy was just soooo wonderful to put up with you and worry about you for these four months. To the point where he can't function, even. :rolleyes: It must have been so difficult for the poor little guy! Somebody hand him a medal! He said his feeling of not being able to function was so strong that he literally felt sick and gripped by anxiety, like he was actually visibly shaking. Whatever. Did you ever witness this yourself? He is such a douche. All he's doing is trying to make himself look good for "dealing with you" while you were together, and make you feel bad for "putting him through this," when in reality YOU DID NOTHING WRONG. He still gave me the option that in a few weeks we can hang out as friends and see what happens with the potential of a relationship if it works out Yeah....because he is too much of a pussy to just tell you straight up that it's over. I'm sure if you were to call him wanting to hang out in a few weeks, he'd probably agree to it and then as soon as you hang up the phone you'd receive a text or email telling you never mind. Which in turn leads me to feeling as though his rejection of me was justified because he sensed that weakness in me. God forbid you are a normal human being with moments of weakness. Good luck to him finding a woman who never shows any weaknesses! Gahhhh I'm sad for you that you believe his bullsh*t that you are too weak and so all of this is somehow your fault. This guy is such an ass.
Hot Carl Posted April 15, 2010 Posted April 15, 2010 Thanks, H_C. Hearing stuff like this helps. I have a question, though. How do I not put pressure on myself to make those improvements AND recover my self esteem, since its lowness is based on my deficiencies in certain areas. At this point I doubt you're the best judge of what needs improving and what doesn't. You're more likely to take his word for it as to what's supposedly wrong with you. I would be concerned that you invest too much energy into trying to mold yourself into something he would approve of. I think there is one and only one improvement you need to make at this point: get your self-esteem back. Also, right now it's more about trying to convince myself that he's weak, immature, whatever; that makes it a lot easier to detach in the short term and recover some sanity. Later I can take a more balanced perspective, if there is one. Because I'm really trying to build some healthy anger and convince myself he's an idiot, I can't allow the thought that he can do better into my head at this point. Do you think he can? Maybe he can do better for him. Maybe what he needs is a simple girl, not a complex woman. If he thinks he'll find someone with no neuroses, then he's a fool. But maybe he's not ready to deal with the realities of a woman yet. That's not his fault. You can do better though. You can find a stronger, mature guy who is equipped to face the fact that you're not a perfect angel. He'll deal with you up front and his objective will always be to keep the relationship healthy. You can't expect that from a 21-year-old college kid who is under his family's thumb. Maybe he'll have what it takes someday, but he doesn't have it now.
Els Posted April 15, 2010 Posted April 15, 2010 Be careful, El. I had NO idea my boyfriend worried so much about me, none whatsoever. He may worry more than you think. But at the same time, it's statistically unlikely that he's as fcked up as mine was. I'm pretty darn sure he doesn't worry more than I think he does, because he's brutally honest, almost to a fault. Actually, I wonder if this is tied in with how much they loved and cared for you at the beginning. It's like, they care so much about a partner (more than the average guy does) that they lack the ability to deal with it in a healthy manner and end up soaking in everything and being affected negatively and finally just giving up, maybe like an overly-empathetic nurse who gives up her job after crying over too many patients' deaths even though she knows that it's paradoxically worse for the patients that she cares so much about if she resigns. Do you feel that way about your ex, that he cared more than most at first? Anyhow, if that's who he is, that's who he is intrinsically, and until and unless he tries to deal with it he won't be able to care for someone without reacting this way, and there was nothing you could have done about it.
Author shadowplay Posted April 15, 2010 Author Posted April 15, 2010 I'm pretty darn sure he doesn't worry more than I think he does, because he's brutally honest, almost to a fault. Actually, I wonder if this is tied in with how much they loved and cared for you at the beginning. It's like, they care so much about a partner (more than the average guy does) that they lack the ability to deal with it in a healthy manner and end up soaking in everything and being affected negatively and finally just giving up, maybe like an overly-empathetic nurse who gives up her job after crying over too many patients' deaths even though she knows that it's paradoxically worse for the patients that she cares so much about if she resigns. Do you feel that way about your ex, that he cared more than most at first? Anyhow, if that's who he is, that's who he is intrinsically, and until and unless he tries to deal with it he won't be able to care for someone without reacting this way, and there was nothing you could have done about it. Yes, I think that's exactly it. He loved me a huge amount, it was obvious and was always concerned about me, even when he was just making things up in his head. I think his empathy or whatever just got really out of control and obsessive, at which point he recoiled and flipped to opposite extreme as self protection.
Els Posted April 15, 2010 Posted April 15, 2010 Which is really a pity, because if it had been channeled and handled in a proper manner, empathy would have been a wonderful thing. Still, at least you can be convinced it's not your fault at all.
Star Gazer Posted April 15, 2010 Posted April 15, 2010 Yes, I think that's exactly it. He loved me a huge amount, it was obvious and was always concerned about me, even when he was just making things up in his head. I think his empathy or whatever just got really out of control and obsessive, at which point he recoiled and flipped to opposite extreme as self protection. I've thought long and hard about this, Shadow. I really don't think anything you said above is true. I think you're both using this "he was just in too deep" and "worried too much about me because of how much he loved me" as a "reason" to justify the entire breakup. The reality is, he probably didn't love you. He's proven that he doesn't even know what love is. He was expressing deep love and undying commitment just weeks into your relationship, before the two of you even knew who the other was at their core. That's wasn't real love; it couldn't be real. Rather, it was intense infatuation. And infatuation dies easily when you start seeing flaws in your SO. Love, on the other hand, doesn't. I'm sorry if that hurts you, but I think one of the things you need to work on is being able to discern real intimacy from infatuation and lust. I mean, even you seem to have lightened up considerably on your level of feelings for him. If it was real love, you wouldn't even be talking about how to find another guy a week later... ya know? I think with time, you'll agree with me. Perhaps not now. I also think that in seeking out a guy who's "devoted" to you right off the bat, you're going to miss the mark every time. Men who are like blowtorches are not good in relationships. It's not normal or healthy for someone to be so intensely devoted from the very beginning of a relationship the way your exBF was. He was very idyllic and overly romanticized, and not rational about any of it. He put you up on an underserving pedestal - and I only say undeserving because he didn't know whether you deserved it or not. It was like he was hyponotized, and that very well may have been because you took his virginity. In any event, it all comes down to this: I'd like to see you be a better people picker. And yes, TBF's H is the exception - and that's a really, big, huge exception, hence why it's literally like a fairytale. What you have to understand is that both TBF and her H are very confident, secure, strong willed people, who know who they each are inside, and both already knew EXACTLY what they were looking for in a partner. This is where you and TBF, and your exBF and her H differ so much (amongst other areas). It was because they were so secure in who they were, and knew eactly what they wanted, that when they found it, they just knew they could stop looking. And even though their engagement came quickly, I have no doubt that the amount of love and devotion they had for one another then, only grew over time...as it should. On the other hand, they were both pretty rational about their partner selection. There weren't any rose colored glasses. And at the end of the day, I have to think that they both just got really, really lucky.
Star Gazer Posted April 15, 2010 Posted April 15, 2010 We went to my room and he spent a few hours just holding me , and letting me cry. We did have sex, which probably wasn't a good idea. It was my idea, not his... Totally missed this. I think I should stop typing now.
Author shadowplay Posted April 15, 2010 Author Posted April 15, 2010 Totally missed this. I think I should stop typing now. It's weird, but I actually feel A LOT better after this happened (at least today I do). I think in a weird way it gave me some sort of closure. I'm not referring to the sex itself, but the fact thatI was finally able to express how I felt and say goodbye without him acting like an arse. The sex was neither here nor there. I probably wouldn't do it again, but it didn't leave me feeling hurt or used. I'm not somebody who reacts very emotionally to sex.
Author shadowplay Posted April 15, 2010 Author Posted April 15, 2010 (edited) I've thought long and hard about this, Shadow. I really don't think anything you said above is true. I think you're both using this "he was just in too deep" and "worried too much about me because of how much he loved me" as a "reason" to justify the entire breakup. The reality is, he probably didn't love you. He's proven that he doesn't even know what love is. He was expressing deep love and undying commitment just weeks into your relationship, before the two of you even knew who the other was at their core. That's wasn't real love; it couldn't be real. Rather, it was intense infatuation. And infatuation dies easily when you start seeing flaws in your SO. Love, on the other hand, doesn't. I'm sorry if that hurts you, but I think one of the things you need to work on is being able to discern real intimacy from infatuation and lust. I mean, even you seem to have lightened up considerably on your level of feelings for him. If it was real love, you wouldn't even be talking about how to find another guy a week later... ya know? I think with time, you'll agree with me. Perhaps not now. I also think that in seeking out a guy who's "devoted" to you right off the bat, you're going to miss the mark every time. Men who are like blowtorches are not good in relationships. It's not normal or healthy for someone to be so intensely devoted from the very beginning of a relationship the way your exBF was. He was very idyllic and overly romanticized, and not rational about any of it. He put you up on an underserving pedestal - and I only say undeserving because he didn't know whether you deserved it or not. It was like he was hyponotized, and that very well may have been because you took his virginity. In any event, it all comes down to this: I'd like to see you be a better people picker. And yes, TBF's H is the exception - and that's a really, big, huge exception, hence why it's literally like a fairytale. What you have to understand is that both TBF and her H are very confident, secure, strong willed people, who know who they each are inside, and both already knew EXACTLY what they were looking for in a partner. This is where you and TBF, and your exBF and her H differ so much (amongst other areas). It was because they were so secure in who they were, and knew eactly what they wanted, that when they found it, they just knew they could stop looking. And even though their engagement came quickly, I have no doubt that the amount of love and devotion they had for one another then, only grew over time...as it should. On the other hand, they were both pretty rational about their partner selection. There weren't any rose colored glasses. And at the end of the day, I have to think that they both just got really, really lucky. You might be right that it was mostly infatuation and not love on his end. I believe that I did genuinely love him. I think it's possible to love somebody after 4 months, and my feelings grew slowly over time while his followed a less natural projection. Right now I can't even imagine being with another guy, but I was trying to force myself to think about it in an attempt to detach. I won't be dating for awhile, believe me. I agree with you that my people picker needs an overhaul, but then I wonder at what point in the process did I actually have reason to end things with my ex? Was it when he started going overboard with the declarations of love? But it seems like that would have been rash, since it was the only real red flag. Was it earlier, when I found out he was a virgin with little experience? Or even before I ever emailed him when I knew how young he was? Edited April 15, 2010 by shadowplay
Star Gazer Posted April 15, 2010 Posted April 15, 2010 While you may have GROWN to love him, you didn't when he claimed he did. Right? And quite frankly, I don't think you actually LOVED him, Shadow. You had too many complaints about him. I think you were just really, really ATTACHED. There's a world of difference between love and attachment. I agree with you that my people picker needs an overhaul, but then I wonder at what point in the process did I actually have reason to end things with my ex? Was it when he started going overboard with the declarations of love? But it seems like that would have been rash, since it was the only real red flag. Was it earlier, when I found out he was a virgin with little experience? Or even before I ever emailed him when I knew how young he was? If you had a good people picker, one of two things would have happened: 1. You wouldn't have dated him to begin with, because you would have known that you need someone with relationship experience who is secure with himself and knows what he wants in a serious relationship. He didn't fit that description from the very beginning. It was patently obvious. 2. As soon as the RED flag was raised, you would have walked away. A red flag is a red flag.
boogieboy Posted April 15, 2010 Posted April 15, 2010 I have a question, though. How do I not put pressure on myself to make those improvements AND recover my self esteem, since its lowness is based on my deficiencies in certain areas. You will start gaining self esteem when you feel confident that you WANT to improve for a start. After that, as you get yourself better your self esteem will grow as you feel the improvements happening. If that doesnt happen, as you get over him, your self esteem will come back anyway. Also, right now it's more about trying to convince myself that he's weak, immature, whatever; that makes it a lot easier to detach in the short term and recover some sanity. Later I can take a more balanced perspective, if there is one. Because I'm really trying to build some healthy anger and convince myself he's an idiot, I don't know whether or not he's an idiot, but he is immature (hes 22) and because of the immaturity he's weak because he cant think for himself. His reason for being SO worried about you to the point where he cant function makes no sense unless you were talking about suicide all the time, which I know you werent. So I know its BS. Since he is breaking up with you, you cant really believe anything he says, people lie when they want to get away from you. They give you whatever answers to make you go away. I think his only REAL reason was he wasnt infatuated anymore, and he cant go against his family. You dodged a bullet.
Author shadowplay Posted April 15, 2010 Author Posted April 15, 2010 I saw a therapist today (my third this week; I'm shopping around for a new one ). She made a point to me that really sank in. I know people have said similar things on here, but something about the way she phrased it really shook some sense into me. I was explaining to her his idea about us hanging out and possibly trying to restart at his pace. She said to me I shouldn't do that because it would be the start of something where he has all the power, whereas when we were together the power was equal (as it should be). Thinking this over on the way home, this triggered a number of thoughts and I suddenly realized that I've lost all my respect for him because of how he treated me. I guess before my feelings were so clouded over by the hurt, that I couldn't accept what a weakling he is. But now I really feel it. You're a pathetic, wobbly blob, S. You never deserved me.
Author shadowplay Posted April 16, 2010 Author Posted April 16, 2010 Man, I just feel a lot better in the last few hours, as if I'm finally starting to see him for what he is. I hope this sticks. I'm sure it will be up and down for awhile, but at least I'm moving in the right direction.
Author shadowplay Posted April 16, 2010 Author Posted April 16, 2010 And there it is, Shadow: the silver lining. ...........................
Star Gazer Posted April 16, 2010 Posted April 16, 2010 ........................... Now see, there's a smile!
Jilly Bean Posted April 16, 2010 Posted April 16, 2010 Shadow, I wonder if you got involved with someone so young and inexperienced because you felt he posed less of an emotional threat, and was someone you thought you could control/guide in a relationship. WDYT? Just a thought... And I said it before, so I'll say it again. I don't doubt that he had real feelings for you. But, at 22, he wasn't looking for a "real" relationship. He was looking for ****s and giggles. He wanted blow jobs, and keg parties, and pizza at 3AM and texting through the day. What you presented was far beyond his interests. I don't think you're tragic and messed up. I do think you bring a fair amount of drama, because you are complex, intelligent and do have some issues to contend with (like the panic disorder). The sheer nature of who you are means you will always be incompatible with someone like this guy - someone who is simple and relatively benign. At the end of the day, the key to a successful relationship is finding someone who can tolerate your crap, and vice versa. You need someone who is patient, and understanding. Someone who isn't going to tweak every time the boat rocks, because sister, you will tip it. Once you really absorb this and believe it, then the next guy you seek will have what's always been missing with the other guys.
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