Do you find American society to go against laws of nature?

[LucreziaBorgia]

But trust me, if you dated me you'd never have to open a door or stand on the bus while i sat down, or anything. Just the way I am.

 

Sadly, there are plenty of women out there who find stuff like that offensive.

[TaraMaiden]

I find all Americans ultimately slightly weird.

being a non-American myself, I feel qualified to make that observation....

[Rorschach]

Sadly, there are plenty of women out there who find stuff like that offensive.

 

I KNOW! Drives me right up the wall *rage*

[sally4sara]

You can never blur those lines no matter how hard you want to because we are what we are and we act how we act because of how we are no matter how much it doesn't make sense to you. It doesn't make sense to you because you AREN'T what we are. Even your view of why you think we are this way is incorrect. We don't do it because there are "tits and ovaries", we do it out of an instinct of protecting and preserving the future and for admiration/appreciation from the opposite sex.

 

You can attempt to confuse those lines as many in society are trying to do if that's really what you want to do, but you can't change what we are at the core.

 

That is just a silly statement. The lines ARE blurred in my life. I don't avoid gender roles; I live them. Both of them. So does my husband. He would protect me if needed as I would for him and he knows this. He admires this about me.

Explain to me what you are at the core that a woman cannot be other than having a prostate and producing sperm. That is the only unalterable aspect of a man I can think of and even that is alterable.

[alphamale]

Do you feel that this is a natural way for humanity to exist?

no i do not

[bayouboi]

Explain to me what you are at the core that a woman cannot be other than having a prostate and producing sperm.

 

See, you're still thinking this is a man vs. woman issue. It's not. Let me see if I can help you understand where we're coming from.

 

If we put you in a combat situation with a platoon of women & one male, would you treat the male differently? Now I'm going to assume your response is "no I would not treat the male differently because we are equals".

 

Now I'm going to ask myself that if I were put in a combat situation with a platoon of men & one woman, would I treat the female differently? My answer is "yes". And whether you like that or not is irrelevant, it's just the way I am.

[Rorschach]

See, you're still thinking this is a man vs. woman issue. It's not. Let me see if I can help you understand where we're coming from.

 

If we put you in a combat situation with a platoon of women & one male, would you treat the male differently? Now I'm going to assume your response is "no I would not treat the male differently because we are equals".

 

Now I'm going to ask myself that if I were put in a combat situation with a platoon of men & one woman, would I treat the female differently? My answer is "yes". And whether you like that or not is irrelevant, it's just the way I am.

 

And I would argue a good 80% of men would say the same thing, it's just the way the world is.

[Engadget]

American society is screwed in general, beyond just gender roles. As a man we're still expected to be the breadwinner, and a lot of men now are becoming house-husbands, which is fine, but a lot can't do it. I know I probably couldn't unless my wife was rich, but even then there's an ego thing involved.

 

Women deserve the same rights, power and all that. However I think since it's so new, a lot of women don't know quite how to handle it. Not all, but some.

[sally4sara]

See, you're still thinking this is a man vs. woman issue. It's not. Let me see if I can help you understand where we're coming from.

 

If we put you in a combat situation with a platoon of women & one male, would you treat the male differently? Now I'm going to assume your response is "no I would not treat the male differently because we are equals".

 

Now I'm going to ask myself that if I were put in a combat situation with a platoon of men & one woman, would I treat the female differently? My answer is "yes". And whether you like that or not is irrelevant, it's just the way I am.

 

What I'm saying is you should define yourself of your own merit, not simply the gender you were born with.

I see you were not able to name what it is at your core that a woman cannot be.....

And as to your different treatment of a woman in that situation? It isn't a law of nature, it is a law of you. Nothing wrong with that, but don't claim your treatment of women is beyond your control. We both know that is false. You learned this way of being. It is not intrinsically male.

I know I would not treat a man differently in that situation. I've not been in combat, but I have been in survival situations and two riots (not by my own instigation - wrong place/wrong time). I have come to the aid of both men and women in these situations.

 

I have no desire for a man vs woman argument. I post my opinions to show that there really SHOULD NOT be any man vs woman; we are the same species and our survival and well being and abilities are equally valuable and interchangeable.

[sally4sara]

American society is screwed in general, beyond just gender roles. As a man we're still expected to be the breadwinner, and a lot of men now are becoming house-husbands, which is fine, but a lot can't do it. I know I probably couldn't unless my wife was rich, but even then there's an ego thing involved.

 

Women deserve the same rights, power and all that. However I think since it's so new, a lot of women don't know quite how to handle it. Not all, but some.

 

Absolutely! I support every instance of women learning to do for themselves everything they look to men for. Not so they can do without a man, but so their choice in a mate is one of want and not one of need. It clears the mind to be better able to look for true compatibility.

Men too, need to be able to do everything they'd look to a woman for. We may pick a partner, but we don't know what life will bring. No one plans on being a widower with kids but it happens.

[marsle85]

If an entire evolved, large group of human beings are acting any way, how are we going against nature?

 

We are nature.

 

Nature doesn't have rules, it's fluid and changing.

 

We're doing just what we should be doing.

[alphamale]

Nature doesn't have rules, ...

oh nature has rules, sister

[Rorschach]

If an entire evolved, large group of human beings are acting any way, how are we going against nature?

 

We are nature.

 

Nature doesn't have rules, it's fluid and changing.

 

We're doing just what we should be doing.

 

mind=blown

[sally4sara]

If an entire evolved, large group of human beings are acting any way, how are we going against nature?

 

We are nature.

 

Nature doesn't have rules, it's fluid and changing.

 

We're doing just what we should be doing.

 

Nice! I'm putting that one on a mug!

[bayouboi]

What I'm saying is you should define yourself of your own merit, not simply the gender you were born with.

 

I do define myself by my own merit...whatever that means.

 

I see you were not able to name what it is at your core that a woman cannot be.....

 

That's because I'm not trying to turn this into a man is better than woman issue as you seem to be with every response.

 

And as to your different treatment of a woman in that situation? It isn't a law of nature, it is a law of you. Nothing wrong with that, but don't claim your treatment of women is beyond your control.

 

"Don't claim your treatment of women is beyond your control" makes it sound as if I were complaining about how I'm wired...I am not. It's my male privilege to care for and desire to protect a female.

 

We both know that is false. You learned this way of being. It is not intrinsically male.

 

Wrong. This is something you think you know. I've already stated what I think I know. Just because you say something is one way does not make it so.

 

I know I would not treat a man differently in that situation.

 

Then my point is proven...why did you post all of the baloney above?

 

I have no desire for a man vs woman argument. I post my opinions to show that there really SHOULD NOT be any man vs woman; we are the same species and our survival and well being and abilities are equally valuable and interchangeable.

 

I understand that you are like those who think there should not be any gender differences...but just because you think things should be one way does not make it so.

[sally4sara]

I do define myself by my own merit...whatever that means.

That's because I'm not trying to turn this into a man is better than woman issue as you seem to be with every response.

 

It is not a matter of better. It is a matter of supporting your view that men and women are so vastly different. Beyond that single chromosome, and reproductive function (assuming its all in working order ) what is it about you that is intrinsically male? A learned behavior, such as being protective of women, is not a genetic or hereditary quality. Women can and do feel compelled to protect others including women. There are men who do not feel compelled to protect anyone. So having the urge to protect others is not a male only quality. Try acting menacing towards some kids when their mother is around and see what I mean. I do not think men or women are better, rather you will find whatever qualities you admire and emulate and even attribute to your masculinity in people of either gender. If it were truly a male thing, women would not ever be that way too.

 

"Don't claim your treatment of women is beyond your control" makes it sound as if I were complaining about how I'm wired...I am not. It's my male privilege to care for and desire to protect a female.

 

It is your human choice to care for and protect women. No one forces you to do it and I never suggested they did. But for you to claim it is intrinsically male for you to do so, you imply it is beyond your control to feel that way. If this were true, there would be no men who abandoned a woman in peril. Hell! there would be no rape if it were intrinsically male to protect women. It is part of the values you were taught. Values you learned to think of as the right thing to do. I'm not knocking it so please don't take it that way. But also, recognize that humans harm and ignore other humans in peril and gender is not the reason for it and more than gender is the reason why they help each other. It is a matter of learned behavior and taught values.

 

Wrong. This is something you think you know. I've already stated what I think I know. Just because you say something is one way does not make it so.

 

Hey buddy, this goes both ways. Just because you say its wrong doesn't make it so. I asked you to show evidence to support your view. All I'm saying is that qualities socially considered masculine are present in women too. Qualities that are considered feminine are present in men too. You're the one drawing hard lies here. All I'm saying is everything and anything under the sun is possible making it IMPOSSIBLE for anything to be intrinsically male or female beyond reproductive functions when those functions are working. Not a man vs woman view at all. You've proven nothing at all.

 

I understand that you are like those who think there should not be any gender differences...but just because you think things should be one way does not make it so.

 

Of course there are gender differences. We can discuss those if you'd like, but you're going to have to point towards something other than chosen actions and taught behaviors. I never said there shouldn't be gender differences, only that if you're going to talk about real gender differences you're going to need to look at real differences and not things one can find either gender emulating.

So what ARE those things?

 

What I'm getting at is that qualities socially considered male or female are used to elevate and diminish the esteem of others when people do enter into the man vs women arguments. All the qualities I hear attributed to either gender can be found in the opposite gender as well. When you attribute certain characters to one gender or the other, you limit the recognition of those qualities being acknowledged in the other gender. This limitation is a form of discrimination.

 

I'm not saying remove gender differences. I'm saying allow room for everyone to be recognized for what qualities they wish to express no matter what gender they are without saying "you're acting like a man or woman". They are just being the man or woman they ARE.

[xxoo]

A learned behavior, such as being protective of women, is not a genetic or hereditary quality. Women can and do feel compelled to protect others including women. There are men who do not feel compelled to protect anyone. So having the urge to protect others is not a male only quality.

 

I agree, sally, except I agree even if it is a genetic or hereditary quality. Whether it is nature or nurture, it is not exclusively male, and it is not ubiquitous among males.

 

When we talk about "male" and "female" traits, we are talking about behaviors observed in groups of men and women. Those traits tell us NOTHING about an individual man or woman. Each individual is just that--an individual.

 

I value the gender freedoms and political protections because it affords each individual the most possible opportunities. It doesn't mean that men and women can not feel free to live and act in gender-typed ways, but protects those who do not fall into the gender-type.

 

Chances are that, if you are even really in a foxhole with a woman, she will be a highly trained woman with strength, skills, and personality characteristics similar to yours. She will be as focused on saving your butt as you are on saving hers....and, what with focusing on living through the day, you might be surprised how you don't think about her butt much in other ways. Maslow's heirarchy of needs, and all that.

[bayouboi]

s4s, you're not getting what I'm saying and I'm not getting what you're saying. We both think we're right and we both think the other person is wrong. The trouble is, whatever it is you're trying to say might be right but I'm just understanding you wrong...at the same time what I'm trying to say might be right but you're understanding me wrong.

 

Are you telling me that your indifference to a male among many females in a combat situation was taught to you by society while my inclination to be distracted by the presence of a female among many males in a combat situation was taught to me by society? It's easy for you to answer "yes" to this just to "be right" but I want you to really think about it. I'm not saying our reactions in either scenario are right or wrong...they simply serve different functions in the big picture.

[espec10001]

It is not a matter of better. It is a matter of supporting your view that men and women are so vastly different. Beyond that single chromosome, and reproductive function (assuming its all in working order ) what is it about you that is intrinsically male? A learned behavior, such as being protective of women, is not a genetic or hereditary quality. Women can and do feel compelled to protect others including women. There are men who do not feel compelled to protect anyone. So having the urge to protect others is not a male only quality. Try acting menacing towards some kids when their mother is around and see what I mean. I do not think men or women are better, rather you will find whatever qualities you admire and emulate and even attribute to your masculinity in people of either gender. If it were truly a male thing, women would not ever be that way too.

 

 

 

It is your human choice to care for and protect women. No one forces you to do it and I never suggested they did. But for you to claim it is intrinsically male for you to do so, you imply it is beyond your control to feel that way. If this were true, there would be no men who abandoned a woman in peril. Hell! there would be no rape if it were intrinsically male to protect women. It is part of the values you were taught. Values you learned to think of as the right thing to do. I'm not knocking it so please don't take it that way. But also, recognize that humans harm and ignore other humans in peril and gender is not the reason for it and more than gender is the reason why they help each other. It is a matter of learned behavior and taught values.

 

 

 

Hey buddy, this goes both ways. Just because you say its wrong doesn't make it so. I asked you to show evidence to support your view. All I'm saying is that qualities socially considered masculine are present in women too. Qualities that are considered feminine are present in men too. You're the one drawing hard lies here. All I'm saying is everything and anything under the sun is possible making it IMPOSSIBLE for anything to be intrinsically male or female beyond reproductive functions when those functions are working. Not a man vs woman view at all. You've proven nothing at all.

 

 

 

Of course there are gender differences. We can discuss those if you'd like, but you're going to have to point towards something other than chosen actions and taught behaviors. I never said there shouldn't be gender differences, only that if you're going to talk about real gender differences you're going to need to look at real differences and not things one can find either gender emulating.

So what ARE those things?

 

What I'm getting at is that qualities socially considered male or female are used to elevate and diminish the esteem of others when people do enter into the man vs women arguments. All the qualities I hear attributed to either gender can be found in the opposite gender as well. When you attribute certain characters to one gender or the other, you limit the recognition of those qualities being acknowledged in the other gender. This limitation is a form of discrimination.

 

I'm not saying remove gender differences. I'm saying allow room for everyone to be recognized for what qualities they wish to express no matter what gender they are without saying "you're acting like a man or woman". They are just being the man or woman they ARE.

 

What I am curious to know is WHY women want to do men's jobs? What is the motivation? To show that you are better than men, that you can do anything they can do and do it better? Is it revenge for previous times when women were more restricted?

 

I certainly don't want to be a woman. I have never wanted to do a woman's job, I have never wanted to be in a woman's shoes or anything like that. Yet women desire to do things men do. Why?

 

The biggest problem I see is that being productive in a work environment or concentrating while there are women around is that there is always sexual tension when working with women whether the woman sees it or not. It's distracting, and I've found that men are simply easier to work with. Everything is simple working with men. Do this. You do it. Focus on getting s*** done. No talking about feelings, no complaining. You just do it and work together to get it done. When a woman enters the picture, for men everything goes haywire because they operate differently and thus you get this whole confusion we are in now.

 

How am I supposed to do my job when there's an attractive lady sitting next to me all day in short skirts and a low cut blouse? Don't women get it by now?

[xxoo]

What I am curious to know is WHY women want to do men's jobs? What is the motivation? To show that you are better than men, that you can do anything they can do and do it better? Is it revenge for previous times when women were more restricted?

 

I certainly don't want to be a woman. I have never wanted to do a woman's job, I have never wanted to be in a woman's shoes or anything like that. Yet women desire to do things men do. Why?

 

Women want to do "men's jobs" for the same reason men want to do those jobs: the money, the power, the excitement, their individual skills and passion, etc.

 

FTR, some men want to do "women's jobs". I personally know a few very happy stay-at-home dads, and have met far more men who've admitted they would LOVE to be a stay-at-home dad if they could make that work. They aren't taking anything away from women (esp if they choose a partner wisely, and marry a woman who would be miserable at home with kids!). They are following their individual passion and using their individual strengths, which happen to be different from yours.

[sally4sara]

What I am curious to know is WHY women want to do men's jobs? What is the motivation? To show that you are better than men, that you can do anything they can do and do it better? Is it revenge for previous times when women were more restricted?

 

I certainly don't want to be a woman. I have never wanted to do a woman's job, I have never wanted to be in a woman's shoes or anything like that. Yet women desire to do things men do. Why?

 

What are these?

[espec10001]

What are these?

 

Nursing, raising a child, cooking, cleaning, keeping the abode in order. Feminine and nurturing jobs that a woman is naturally good at. Women are good at these things, they have been for a long, long, long time! I'm not saying be locked in the house all day, but for christ sakes, you are taking all the jobs men used to do so they could provide you with all these nice things because they loved you for you.

 

Men used to give women everything; their devotion, their love, their hard earned money, there was nothing wrong with this. He could be a proud father and help raise good children.

 

Now, men are vilified, portrayed as lazy slobs who can't think for themselves. In our society men are being shown as the inferior gender, and that simply can never be. Men GAVE women these rights that they have, and unfortunately, gave them and inch, they took a mile.

[xxoo]

Nursing, raising a child, cooking, cleaning, keeping the abode in order. Feminine and nurturing jobs that a woman is naturally good at. Women are good at these things, they have been for a long, long, long time!

 

Do you honestly believe ALL women are good at this? All women are strong in these skills, and enjoy this work?

 

Have you seen Revolutionary Road? That's a great example of what can happen when individuals are pigeon-holed into "women's jobs".

[espec10001]

Do you honestly believe ALL women are good at this? All women are strong in these skills, and enjoy this work?

 

Have you seen Revolutionary Road? That's a great example of what can happen when individuals are pigeon-holed into "women's jobs".

 

Yes, I honestly believe that a woman's nature is one of nurturing and child bearing and raising families. Men naturally are builders, inventors, soldiers, dirty jobs, farming, earning the food and shelter. The hunters. Men are pigeon-holed all the time and I doubt any man "enjoys" working every day of his life, but he still has to do it.

 

I'm not saying it would ever be like this again, because it won't. I just find that when people try to play both sexes and divide themselves, they do neither job very well.

[sally4sara]

Yes, I honestly believe that a woman's nature is one of nurturing and child bearing and raising families. Men naturally are builders, inventors, soldiers, dirty jobs, farming, earning the food and shelter. The hunters. Men are pigeon-holed all the time and I doubt any man "enjoys" working every day of his life, but he still has to do it.

 

I'm not saying it would ever be like this again, because it won't. I just find that when people try to play both sexes and divide themselves, they do neither job very well.

 

And in this way you discriminate against women who are not your opinion of "natural". Women who feel no desire to have children, wipe butt, or scrub toilets. You leave them with no options all because you can't handle their physical form being in the same office as you. Also, you shame men who have a sincere desire to work with kids or be the primary care giver to their children. It also hinders a man's ability to feel pride in doing so should he lose his job and care for his children till something comes along.