Do you find American society to go against laws of nature?

[espec10001]

Men and women are different. Not just physically but in how they view the world and most importantly relationships. American culture and society likes to view the man and women as equal, capable of doing the same things and they should be treated the same.

 

However, it seems as though men and women cannot do the same things and be treated the same. In a sense they are equals, but they have natural roles to play representative of what their gender is. In America, it seems as though both men and women try to be both sexes in one.

 

Do you feel that this is a natural way for humanity to exist? Or have we gone too far away from natural law that it needs to be reset?

 

Or, are you comfortable with it?

[Twenty-ten]

I think evolution is natural, without it we would still be living in caves and men would be dragging us into the cave by our hair.

 

The way men and women relate today and the idea that in advanced countries women seek equality, just means that we live in the more progressive parts of the world. I understand your question is "does it work" I think it does in some aspects and not in others. But like every transitional phase in history it does not come without growing pains, we may just be experiencing the worst of it.

 

In the same countries some people refer to as places where women are subservient and men rule society they are still pooing in holes in the ground. So you kind of have to take evolution and progress in all its facets.

[Rorschach]

In some ways I think you are right that men and women should be treated different, in many more ways I think you're wrong. I think on the whole the culture is doing a pretty good job although I see a few hiccups here and there.

[ADF]

If you want to see what happen supposedly "natural" differences between men and women are codified into law, look no further than Saudi Arabia or Iran. Do you want to live in a society like that? I don't.

[espec10001]

In some ways I think you are right that men and women should be treated different, in many more ways I think you're wrong. I think on the whole the culture is doing a pretty good job although I see a few hiccups here and there.

 

Well this is a discussion after all and I'd like to hear WHY you believe I'm more wrong than right

[Rorschach]

Well in one way I think you're right is the military, I'm a firm believer that no women should be in the military, not because they can't do it (because I know they can), but because it creates a situation that I don't think is a good one to be in a war during. (just look at all the problems they had on MASH and that was just a medical unit >_> lulz)

 

But I do think women should be treated equally in most other aspects, employment, rights, respect, all of that. Because there is really no reason that the best people shouldn't advance regardless of sex, race, or religion.

 

One thing that was unequal, is unequal, and will forever be unequal that really does annoy me is men's role in dating. Men have to ask, women get to choose. It's the way of the world I realize and its more complicated than that. But as a guy if I want to get a date I have to ask 10 women just to get one that will even consider the notion (I'm working on increasing my ratio by losing weight/building personality, but for now thats pretty accurate), while all women have to do is look pretty and sit there and men will come to them. I call shenanigans!

[TaraMaiden]

Professionally, ethically and in a socially interactive way, men and women should not be treated in different ways.

 

 

Emotionally, physically and psychologically, men and women should be treated differently.

[silic0ntoad]

Professionally, ethically and in a socially interactive way, men and women should not be treated in different ways.

 

 

Emotionally, physically and psychologically, men and women should be treated differently.

 

 

QFT.

 

IMHO, American culture is corrupt, innately, and outwardly. American culture prides itself on hidden agendas, hidden corruption, and hidden decay.

 

Outwardly, we are portrayed as a society that favors unisex work places with equal opportunity for each sex. Innately, women still struggle with the glass ceiling. Women are still subject to sexual advances for unrequited occupational promises.

 

Outwardly, we are portrayed as a society of mixed races, favoring laws that allow equal treatment for all mankind. Innately, we still harbor racist views on all sides of the court, and still punish those of different skin tones in unfair manners.

 

So I would say yes, America itself is a giant rotten structure hidden beneath a marblized crust. But some people are starting to crack the crust and people are seeing this nation for what it is.

 

Sorry for the rant.

 

[sally4sara]

Men and women are different. Not just physically but in how they view the world and most importantly relationships. American culture and society likes to view the man and women as equal, capable of doing the same things and they should be treated the same.

 

However, it seems as though men and women cannot do the same things and be treated the same. In a sense they are equals, but they have natural roles to play representative of what their gender is. In America, it seems as though both men and women try to be both sexes in one.

 

Do you feel that this is a natural way for humanity to exist? Or have we gone too far away from natural law that it needs to be reset?

 

Or, are you comfortable with it?

 

If you were to compare men to men or women to women, you will find differences. This is why it is best to let people stand on their own merit rather than limit people based on gender.

Men can parent just as well as women. Women can earn just as well as men. Technology and work safety standards have made it possible for any job to be handled by either gender. Even if we were to need to go back to growing and hunting for our food, gender would not make one incapable of doing so.

Are all people equal? No. Some people are smart or better looking. Some have natural talents that not everyone else has, but those don't make someone more deserving of opportunity. Equality is about having the same options and freedoms to show what skill set they have can offer to our society.

I've never found any real proof that the equal treatment of men and women has caused damage to our society. Folks come up with arguments but none have and real proof; it is all supposition and fantasy. The only way to prove the old ways were better is if we could go back in time and change the standards of the past to see what would result. Can't be done, so the folks who speak against it find comfort in their unprovable beliefs. But how on Earth could it have been a bad thing for all to have access to the same level of education and opportunities when we can clearly see education has brought great things to our species and a lack of options brings about desperate actions?

[sally4sara]

So you want all the benefits of being a man without all the bad parts of being a man?

 

And you want to be treated like a girl when it benefits you, but not when it doesn't benefit you?

 

The emotional, physical and psychological differences between men and women spill over to the professional, ethical and socially interactive worlds, people just don't want to talk about it or treat it like the elephant in the room. As someone who has been in professional, ethical and socially interactive situations with women I can say we are not the same. Men and women are equal in dignity, but opposites in function.

 

But that is about interpersonal standards. Do you want to have the same relationship with your guy friends as you would this woman?

If you were her employer, you would be doing her a great disservice by treating her differently than her male coworkers. She would not be learning to do her job as well as they and they would not be able to respect her ability. It would create problems for her if she went to another job based on what experience she should have gained.

What people do in their homes with their loved ones is different from the job market or with education.

[sally4sara]

Well in one way I think you're right is the military, I'm a firm believer that no women should be in the military, not because they can't do it (because I know they can), but because it creates a situation that I don't think is a good one to be in a war during. (just look at all the problems they had on MASH and that was just a medical unit >_> lulz)

 

But I do think women should be treated equally in most other aspects, employment, rights, respect, all of that. Because there is really no reason that the best people shouldn't advance regardless of sex, race, or religion.

 

One thing that was unequal, is unequal, and will forever be unequal that really does annoy me is men's role in dating. Men have to ask, women get to choose. It's the way of the world I realize and its more complicated than that. But as a guy if I want to get a date I have to ask 10 women just to get one that will even consider the notion (I'm working on increasing my ratio by losing weight/building personality, but for now thats pretty accurate), while all women have to do is look pretty and sit there and men will come to them. I call shenanigans!

 

This only stands if you buy into it. I've asked men out; I know other women who ask men out. And men choose to. If you were to meet a woman and not find what you're looking for you leave. You are not obligated to stay just because she wants you to stay. Men choose too.

[TaraMaiden]

So you want all the benefits of being a man without all the bad parts of being a man?

What are the 'bad parts' of being a man? I'd also expect you to be treated like a woman, without all the ;bad parts' of being a woman. It cuts both ways....

 

And you want to be treated like a girl when it benefits you, but not when it doesn't benefit you?

I'd like to be treated like a human being, and given consideration for my different psychological 'make-up' just as I'd expect to give consideration to a man's psychological make-up and his right to be that way.

 

This isn't about fighting a sex war. This is about accepting that some things we can all do together, and some things make us completely different. There's nothing wrong with that.

Where the 'wrong' comes in, is when people try to play that as a trump card and use it as a weapon, rather than a unifying factor, and also see it as an offensive, rather than a positive aspect of being two individuals...

 

The emotional, physical and psychological differences between men and women spill over to the professional,

They shouldn't. I will hold open a door for a male colleague, just as I would for a female... and guys at work do the same.

ethical and socially interactive worlds, people just don't want to talk about it or treat it like the elephant in the room.

Well, that's their phukk-up. People shouldn't blur edges. In the workplace, we should all be treated as equals. You do my job, you get treated like I do. Vice versa.

 

As someone who has been in professional, ethical and socially interactive situations with women I can say we are not the same. Men and women are equal in dignity, but opposites in function.

 

Women are better in some roles, and men in others.

 

The equal Opportunities commission, Human Rights lobbyists and anti-discrimination - authorities have got a lot to answer for.

Idiots.

[torranceshipman]

This posts demonstrates how some people completely misunderstand the concept of equality. Equality does not mean acting the same - it means equal rights, equal respect, and no discrimination based on gender.

 

Some people seem to be confused and say 'if women want equality why aren't they willing to do x,y, and z like a man? they want it both ways'. That is a fundamental misunderstanding of equality. Equality does not impact whether socialized gender roles (whether you like or loathe them) continue. These are two completely separate concepts.

 

In answer to the OP, I think that American society is way too diverse to make a judgment; sure, some parts of our country seem to take a lot of things WAY too far, but contrast that with other states and they swing completely the opposite way.

[sally4sara]

Well in one way I think you're right is the military, I'm a firm believer that no women should be in the military, not because they can't do it (because I know they can), but because it creates a situation that I don't think is a good one to be in a war during. (just look at all the problems they had on MASH and that was just a medical unit >_> lulz)

 

Well so far, we don't have a draft. If a woman want to do her part in the military, she should be allowed. Go through the same training and put in the same situations. I know men I wouldn't trust to watch my back on the battlefield. My cousin is one; he faints at the sight of blood. Where as a girl I went to school with, I would trust implicitly to be my personal body guard. I watched her take out two guys at once. Who would YOU want standing next to you in battle?

I'm big believer in letting people gravitate to their calling even if their gender isn't the one that naturally gravitates to that situation. You get better performance from someone who is willing than you would from someone you believe has the most suitable gender to the situation.

[torranceshipman]

So you want all the benefits of being a man without all the bad parts of being a man?

 

And you want to be treated like a girl when it benefits you, but not when it doesn't benefit you?

 

The emotional, physical and psychological differences between men and women spill over to the professional, ethical and socially interactive worlds, people just don't want to talk about it or treat it like the elephant in the room. As someone who has been in professional, ethical and socially interactive situations with women I can say we are not the same. Men and women are equal in dignity, but opposites in function.

 

This is a case in point. Do you realize what you are really saying here? Flip the gender and realize what you are saying: Woman to man (pretend men are the ones fighting for equality for a moment): 'Are you prepared to go through menstruation once a month (icky example I know, but bear with me)? No? So you want all the benefits of being a woman without the bad parts?'

 

See how that doesn't really make sense? The 'benefits of being a man' as you say are not in fact benefits of being a man. We do not WANT to be men. We want rights that are EQUAL to men in terms of respect, fairness, salary, and equality. EQUALITY does not mean the two genders morphing into one: they are very different and can remain so 100% without affecting the concept of equality. There is only an elephant in the room when people misunderstand this concept.

 

And I agree with you that women and men are opposites in function else we couldn't make babies and you guys would be weepy, uncomfortable and bloated once a month and I can't imagine you like that idea - so thank God for the differences, eh

[Rorschach]

Well so far, we don't have a draft. If a woman want to do her part in the military, she should be allowed. Go through the same training and put in the same situations. I know men I wouldn't trust to watch my back on the battlefield. My cousin is one; he faints at the sight of blood. Where as a girl I went to school with, I would trust implicitly to be my personal body guard. I watched her take out two guys at once. Who would YOU want standing next to you in battle?

I'm big believer in letting people gravitate to their calling even if their gender isn't the one that naturally gravitates to that situation. You get better performance from someone who is willing than you would from someone you believe has the most suitable gender to the situation.

 

Like I said it has nothing to do with merit I know very well there are men out there who are less qualified than many women yet will still go into the military, it has nothing to do with that. I just think that guys are always going to be guys, in the military or not, and putting a girl in the middle of 50 guys who haven't seen their girlfriend in 3 years and saying 'don't touch'. It's not the girls fault to any extent it's the guys.

 

If there was going to be women in the military I'm an advocate of all female units because this seems to prevent the problem, or women in the position of people like pilots where they mostly deal with just themselves, its not that I believe women are not innately cut out for it.

 

If you'd ever seen the show mash you might better get the reference since there was ALOT of sexual tension on that show that got in the way often.

[bayouboi]

Well so far, we don't have a draft. If a woman want to do her part in the military, she should be allowed. Go through the same training and put in the same situations. I know men I wouldn't trust to watch my back on the battlefield. My cousin is one; he faints at the sight of blood. Where as a girl I went to school with, I would trust implicitly to be my personal body guard. I watched her take out two guys at once. Who would YOU want standing next to you in battle?

I'm big believer in letting people gravitate to their calling even if their gender isn't the one that naturally gravitates to that situation. You get better performance from someone who is willing than you would from someone you believe has the most suitable gender to the situation.

 

This isn't a "man is better than a woman" or a "woman is better than a man" issue. This is an issue of men will act differently in a situation where women are present. The psychological mindset during combat for a man would be extremely different if a woman is endangered versus another man...so much so that it might compromise an objective or command which is vital to proper execution. Then as noted above, the sexual tension would be/is immense.

 

I agree with the poster that supports an all women unit in order to provide women an avenue to serve.

[sally4sara]

 

If you'd ever seen the show mash you might better get the reference since there was ALOT of sexual tension on that show that got in the way often.

 

Mash was a tv show; sex sells. It was also set in a different time with different accepted behaviors.

[sally4sara]

This isn't a "man is better than a woman" or a "woman is better than a man" issue. This is an issue of men will act differently in a situation where women are present. The psychological mindset during combat for a man would be extremely different if a woman is endangered versus another man...so much so that it might compromise an objective or command which is vital to proper execution. Then as noted above, the sexual tension would be/is immense.

 

I agree with the poster that supports an all women unit in order to provide women an avenue to serve.

 

I don't see it as a men vs women issue at all. And all you're convincing me of is that we need more blurring of the lines of distinction involving gender for men to be able to rise above their own actions being so easily influenced as to risk the safety of everyone in the situation just because there are tits and ovaries attached to one of their fellow soldiers.

[Rorschach]

Sorry thats just nature, as a dude if I have to keep my mind on bullets and bombs whizzing by all around me I really don't want to have there be anybody I find attractive within 500 yards of me, far too distracting. nothing against women who serve I just know I don't want any in my foxhole cause I'd be too busy thinking about hers...

 

You have to remember men in the military are 18-25, raging hormones much?

[LucreziaBorgia]

I think that society has lost touch with the fact that women and men are not the same - their brains are different, their hormone levels are different, their motivations are different, their emotional capacity and emotional ways are different, and yet... people like to pretend that they aren't.

 

This is why chivalry died. Why being 'treated like a lady' is seen as an insult. I like the romantic roles the way they were: clear cut masculine and feminine roles that work in harmony.

 

I don't think the genders are equal - not by a long shot. There are strengths and weaknesses to each that are meant to be complimented by each other.

[sally4sara]

Sorry thats just nature, as a dude if I have to keep my mind on bullets and bombs whizzing by all around me I really don't want to have there be anybody I find attractive within 500 yards of me, far too distracting. nothing against women who serve I just know I don't want any in my foxhole cause I'd be too busy thinking about hers...

 

You have to remember men in the military are 18-25, raging hormones much?

 

Are rapists the first pick when trying to get folks to enlist?

I wouldn't imagine it is any greater effort to fight next to a woman without sex coming into play than any other coed situation unless rape is accepted in the military.

Can you hold a civilian job in a coed situation? If yes, then you can work an enlisted job in a coed situation.

[Rorschach]

Are rapists the first pick when trying to get folks to enlist?

I wouldn't imagine it is any greater effort to fight next to a woman without sex coming into play than any other coed situation unless rape is accepted in the military.

Can you hold a civilian job in a coed situation? If yes, then you can work an enlisted job in a coed situation.

 

civilian job, 9-5, women available during off work hours

 

military job, 24 hours, no women available

 

after 6 months of this it's not that hard to imagine that most of the men would be heavily distracted by a women. I'm not defending it, I'm just saying it's the way it is. If you aren't a man maybe you can't understand but trust me I may never rape a women (the thought of it is all lulz to me even) but I haven't had sex since august and I get HELLA distracted pretty much all the time.

[Rorschach]

I think that society has lost touch with the fact that women and men are not the same - their brains are different, their hormone levels are different, their motivations are different, their emotional capacity and emotional ways are different, and yet... people like to pretend that they aren't.

 

This is why chivalry died. Why being 'treated like a lady' is seen as an insult. I like the romantic roles the way they were: clear cut masculine and feminine roles that work in harmony.

 

I don't think the genders are equal - not by a long shot. There are strengths and weaknesses to each that are meant to be complimented by each other.

 

well I'm still one man carrying the torch for chivalry, but I find it isn't appreciated as much anymore, most women either feel awkard or just take it for granted after a couple dates. But trust me, if you dated me you'd never have to open a door or stand on the bus while i sat down, or anything. Just the way I am.

 

Except seriously, I HATE restaurants with two doors on them, because I'll always hold the outer one, and can't possibly get to the inner one in time, and half the time then she'll hold it open for me because I did it for her and in my head I'm going 'damn it, thats not how it works!'

[bayouboi]

I don't see it as a men vs women issue at all. And all you're convincing me of is that we need more blurring of the lines of distinction involving gender for men to be able to rise above their own actions being so easily influenced as to risk the safety of everyone in the situation just because there are tits and ovaries attached to one of their fellow soldiers.

 

You can never blur those lines no matter how hard you want to because we are what we are and we act how we act because of how we are no matter how much it doesn't make sense to you. It doesn't make sense to you because you AREN'T what we are. Even your view of why you think we are this way is incorrect. We don't do it because there are "tits and ovaries", we do it out of an instinct of protecting and preserving the future and for admiration/appreciation from the opposite sex.

 

You can attempt to confuse those lines as many in society are trying to do if that's really what you want to do, but you can't change what we are at the core.