What is love, is it out there? Do I expect too much?

[momoftwo]

Not sure where to start. It would probably take me 10 pages to fill you all in on the past so I think it will be easier for me to post these questions (as I think that's what it comes down to?). Although after three years, thousands in counseling, self-help books, trying to do the right thing (kids etc), I feel I have learned a lot about myself but still can't get past the is it really out there, should I stay or should I go- I love my kids sooo much and am so afraid of them thinking I don't love them and I would miss them being around, why can't I just make a decision and stick with it? I guess I should explain at least a little about what I mean by love.

 

I DON"T expect him or the relationship to be perfect!! I don't expect that giddy, fall in love feeling to last more than oh- the first four to six months, I don't expect to never fight- in fact , some constructive "fighting" (maybe disagreement is the better choice) is healthy. I do expect that we are each our own person and not identical and we appreciate our differences. I do expect a phone call if running late. I want to know though- is it too much to expect that you just know in your heart if you love someone? Is not unreasonable to have that "wow- I really love you"- maybe not the giddy feeling but the - yeah- you might piss me off and you might not be perfect, but wake up knowing you want to stick it out with that person no matter what- that at least twice a year you want to make love and not just have sex- that I can be who I am and allowed to be that person (of course nothing crazy here- long story) . Is there anyone in a relationship like this now and if so how long? or is it really just a facade and people who say silly things like "it gets better everyday", "I love my ____ soooo much" , "I am still enlove with my wife, it ain't easy but I still love her with all my heart" are really lying through their teeth.

 

Okay, this is getting a bit hard to follow so just try to answer or ask a question and then we can go from there?

 

Momoftwo

[tavoludo]

Hi there!

 

instead of wanting to be certain why don't you just believe? Dont get me wrong i undertand you, we all are hurting and that's the reason we are here in the first place, it is hard to believe that somebody will arrive in your life and change it but at least, since i am separated not divorced, i want to believe that person will be my current wife or somebody else. The day i don't believe in love anymore, i wont see a reason to keep on living.

 

During these past few days although it is not the romantic love that i desire, i've seen how friends and family have stopped their routines to help me in this difficult moment and if that kind of love exists i want to believe the other kind does too.

 

Don't give up and be yourself, it's not that we have to find love, it finds us if we are ready to be found that's why you should be ok with yourself.

 

There is light at the end

Edited April 12, 2010 by tavoludo

[momoftwo]

Yes, I agree- I need to work on being okay with myself and not afraid of being alone. Some days I am good at it and other days I have a lot of self-doubt (goes back to childhood- supposedly- that's the counselor's version- that I was never allowed to think for myself or have an opinion- however, if that's the worst thing my parents did- I am pretty lucky).

 

That is one thing the counselor's never help with- how do you get to that point? And is it unfair to do that while you are married or is it something you have to figure out while on your own.

 

I use to believe (before marriage) but was deeply hurt several times and so married for security (not monetary- the I know this person will take care of me and you end up as friends anyway, so who needs passion or "true" love- I convinced myself it doesn't exist- hence my question).

 

I am happy that you still believe- keep on believing!!! I envy you. Maybe someday I will have the courage to believe.

[tavoludo]

You will but also you have to believe in a true love not the everlasting cinderella love. I am concious that after the honeymoon love, comes the true test and it is hard i know that's the reason i'm separated.

 

It is hard to be a good husband/wife but life teaches you alot only if we stop and listen to what it is trying to tell us. Personally, sometimes i'm ok like right now and sometimes i'm depressed but i have come to believe that we should embrace this opportunity to be better and wiser and learn from all those mistakes (ours and theirs).

 

How can you take the reigns of your life? I would say little by little, doing something everyday that scares you, i'm trying to do that and believe me you feel alive and proud of yourself without the need for somebody else to reassure you are the best. If we love ourselves it will be easier for others to keep or get to love us.

 

Dont give up, volunteer, do something that you always wanted to do but thought it was too hard, too silly, impossible believe me it truly helps your self appreciation.

 

We are here to help each other, and the key is just to forget how bad our life sucks yo focus on how to help others and at the same time it helps yourself

Edited April 12, 2010 by tavoludo

[You Go Girl]

You speak of security, that that is why you are married to this man. Security isn't a bad thing, if it involved making a good choice in a reliable person that is who they appear to be. So that part of the equation is not a bad decision.

But I sense that you have the caterpillar to butterfly thing going on inside yourself. That you think perhaps you could fly instead of just crawl around, leave your security partner, and succeed with somebody else.

 

It's a mean world out there. Somebody could prop you up just to drop you like a rock, or drop your faith like a rock, even if they keep you. (It's happened to me.)

Building self-esteem, confidence, pride, come from your own achievements, not your choice in a partner.

If you need to use those wings, do so first in a way that you can be proud of, such as advancing in your career, achieving a life-long goal, etc.

Change yourself instead of your marriage partner. Your outlook, viewpoint, all with change with you changing yourself.

Then, you will know better whether there are shortcomings in your marriage, and how to work on them.

Leaving a spouse is no way to fly away from security and into the mean world. That's more like Icarus--flew too close to the sun and burned.

[momoftwo]

Thank you for your words of caution and wisdom! Yes I agree, it is a mean world out there- I also know from experience; hence why I am in the situation I am now.

 

I have pursued my career over the last couple of years and just completed my doctorate degree. I also agree that a partner cannot fix you and only I can do that.

 

Regardless, if someone is not abusing you (well at least physically)- I would say my husband is a bit "obsessed" with me, is very subliminally controlling and I don't feel I can truly be myself but overall he is a good father, friend and makes me laugh. I just don't look forward to spending time with him- I am only doing it for the kids- and that is where I am stuck- is that really helping them or not? There are so many different opinions out there and I just am so afraid to make the wrong decision that I keep going back and forth which ultimately probably is not fair to him. The problem is I don't love him - he is a good friend. Also, we never, ever (not even the first couple months- well at least not for me-of which he knows - yes I know how awful to have to admit that to someone was devestatingly painful but I am a very honest person and in fact, maybe too honest -long story) had that OMG attraction, fall in love, giddy feeling. I thought- well it goes away anyway so what the heck. However, it seems that some people out there do get those feelings back (certainly not to the extreme as was at first but glimpses- maybe for a couple minutes when you are out to dinner-basically I now think it ebbs and flows). So hence my original question- I don't want to seem selfish or to do the wrong thing. At the same time, when he is controlling (even though he states he isn't) and I can't even go out with a girlfriend (concert, movie etc) without him, it's infuriating. Long story- he has tried to do better but it is just his nature to need to be with me 24/7 and I am not that type of person. At first, when we started dating, I thought it was fabulous b/c it was so different that previous relationships and I thought it was great he told me he loved me after two weeks and all the time. But overtime, that has become unbearable- I feel smothered-. All this we have gone over in counseling. And we have been separated (4 months about 1 yr ago) and I came back, then 8 months later asked for a divorce. I know the grass isn't greener on the other side which is why I keep trying to make it work but I honestly don't feel connected at all anymore and never really was- I knew he could never break my heart- at the same time, when I got married, I thought that's just how everyone's marriage is-but over the last three/four years I have seen indications that perhaps knowing in your heart you love someone no matter what really does exist (that is my question??). I think I rushed into marriage b/c I wanted kids (I was hitting that 30 age) and all my other friends were getting married and my husband is not a bad person. I know all of this is very cruel to him and it was not my intention to leave when I got married. I just feel so bad but at the same time, I am just not happy. I guess I don't mind being alone and perhaps that's how I should be for a while. I don't know what I am expecting you all to write- I just needed to get this information out of my head and onto "paper". Well I need to go for now.

[mimidarlin]

momoftwo,

Let me check if I understand you correctly. You don't think you were ever in love with this man? It seems that you may have realized in the beginning that he didn't "thrill" you but you wanted a family and security. So should you stay or go?

 

If you don't think that you ever had a deep and abiding love for him then you won't ever "get it back". I know that my STBX and I were truly happy for most of our marriage but somewhere along the way it fell apart for him. I think we could get it back...or I could but he doesn't see how. The difference between our relationships is that we had something in the beginning. We've changed so our relationship has changed. We've hurt one another and maybe that damaged the relationship to the point of no return.

 

I read your post and it just makes me sad. Sad for you, sad for the kids...sad for your husband. You know what you have to do. We can't tell you what to do but you realize that neither of you is happy. You realize that he will never make you happy because you never had that spark. He's obsessed with you because you are so detached and he is sensing that he can't reach you.

 

You know that you want out. Leave the man with a little dignity though. Don't ever tell him that you don't think you ever loved him. It might be true but it isn't necessary to share it with him. It is good to admit it to yourself and your counselor. Think about why you made major life choices in such a clinical manner. Your counselor may be onto something when they mentioned that you never were encouraged to have a strong opinion or think for yourself. This doesn't mean your parents treated you badly at all. It may mean that you made decisions based on what was expected of you rather than having a strong opinion about what you wanted.

 

So now you have to make a decision based on what YOU really want but you know that it will cause a great deal of pain to those you love. You want more out of married life and the reality is that your husband deserves more out of it as well. This is going to be painful and ugly but necessary. Set him free.

[Gunny376]

Not sure where to start. It would probably take me 10 pages to fill you all in on the past so I think it will be easier for me to post these questions (as I think that's what it comes down to?). Although after three years, thousands in counseling, self-help books, trying to do the right thing (kids etc), I feel I have learned a lot about myself but still can't get past the is it really out there, should I stay or should I go- I love my kids sooo much and am so afraid of them thinking I don't love them and I would miss them being around, why can't I just make a decision and stick with it? I guess I should explain at least a little about what I mean by love.

 

I DON"T expect him or the relationship to be perfect!! I don't expect that giddy, fall in love feeling to last more than oh- the first four to six months, I don't expect to never fight- in fact , some constructive "fighting" (maybe disagreement is the better choice) is healthy. I do expect that we are each our own person and not identical and we appreciate our differences. I do expect a phone call if running late. I want to know though- is it too much to expect that you just know in your heart if you love someone? Is not unreasonable to have that "wow- I really love you"- maybe not the giddy feeling but the - yeah- you might piss me off and you might not be perfect, but wake up knowing you want to stick it out with that person no matter what- that at least twice a year you want to make love and not just have sex- that I can be who I am and allowed to be that person (of course nothing crazy here- long story) . Is there anyone in a relationship like this now and if so how long? or is it really just a facade and people who say silly things like "it gets better everyday", "I love my ____ soooo much" , "I am still enlove with my wife, it ain't easy but I still love her with all my heart" are really lying through their teeth.

 

Okay, this is getting a bit hard to follow so just try to answer or ask a question and then we can go from there?

 

Momoftwo

 

You've answered your own question ~ break it down to it component parts?

[You Go Girl]

Momoftwo--

 

haha...I see what you are trying to do. Trying to be smart and make a risk assessment.

Oh boy! If we could all do that in love--predetermine our chances, the outcome, the success, we'd have the magic wand!

You're trying to do risk assessment on leaving, and on finding love. Wish I could tell you that (married twice now) you will definitely find what you are looking for, and won't regret leaving the security of the marriage you are in.

Truth be told however--there are some things I can guarantee for your future should you leave, and others that I nor no one else can guarantee for you.

For sure: You will experience new things you have never even thought of. You will have thoughts you have never dreamed to this point in your life. You will change--and those changes will be the result of your new experiences, not changes you have planned. For sure: You will never be the same person you are now.

Unsure category: That you will find a love that doesn't disappoint you later, that you will find the type of love you are looking for at all, that you won't get side-tracked many times with many different men looking for the type of love you seek, that you won't regret the decision to leave the man you have now.

Although, on that last one--regret--you will be a different person than who you are now. Giving up experiences to return to the naivete of days long gone, is not only not an option--but would involve a choice between the more mature and wise you, and the innocence and ignorance you left behind.

But nobody can guarantee that the wiser you won't have had to suffer to get there.

So there you go. A true risk assessment. Do you want to embark on new journeys, although they may contain great risk and disappointment? Will you be happy to say that at least you ventured out from security, even if in the end you never achieved your original goal?

The only real guaranttee is that nothing in your life will ever be the same again, and that includes you.

[Ms_Newleaf]

Hi There momoftwo,

 

I'm new to this forum and your post was the first one that I read here. First I want to tell you that I share your story so closely and I was actually relieved to read your letter and realize that I wasn't alone.

 

I felt exactly the same in my marriage. I married him for emotional security because I knew he was a 'safe' guy. I too never had that sparkly, fall-in-love, kind of feeling and I also convinced myself that it really didn't exist anyway, so this was the best I could hope for in a man. He had a big family that lived close by, he was a handsome, honest, hard-working man and he lived on a beautiful, piece of property that his family settled over 100 years ago. Obviously all things that were appealing to me and probably would be to anyone. For the most part he was a good guy. I just wasn't in love with him and I just like you, I want to believe that there's something more to life.

 

Six months ago, I told my ex-husband that I was unhappy (nothing new to him) and I thought maybe we should try separating for awhile. He completely flew off the handle and asked me to leave immediately and then two weeks later (some extenuating circumstances for sure) he asked me for a divorce. It was finalized about three and a half months after I moved out and we've had very little contact since. It's very sad and more than a little hard, but I'm trying to make it work everyday.

 

I agree with You Go Girl about the fact that the one thing you can count on is change and that's something I couldn't say when I was with my husband. There would never be a chance for something better for either of us, if we stayed together. Life would be exactly as it was forever! I couldn't live with that option! Even though I'm having a really tough time adjusting, at least I've given myself (and him) the opportunity to find 'true love' someday in the future.

 

There are no guarantees that we will find the perfect person. There are no guarantees that our hearts won't be broken over and over again while we're looking for 'true love'. I think the point is to remain open and receptive to all the love available to us, even though it hurts sometimes. Keep your heart open and love will find a way.

 

We all yearn to be with someone who truly 'sees' us and accepts us for exactly who we are. I think if we cultivate that relationship with ourselves, we don't have to worry about security ever again. It's just something we create for and by ourselves and all of our relationships will benefit from it. That way if or when I choose a relationship in the future, it will be for all the RIGHT reasons. Otherwise, I have everything I need in my life already. Now if only I could learn to appreciate it!

[mimidarlin]

How do we make a choice about a mate? If we're smart it isn't based solely on emotion and physical attraction. Can the relationship work if those two things were never part of the equation? What if those feelings have always been one sided in the relationship?

 

Relationships change. People change. We all have to decide what are deal breakers. Sometimes we get married too young. We haven't experienced enough to know what the deal breakers are in a relationship. I know that my ex and I didn't have many long term relationships before we were with each other. I had thought about essential qualities that I wanted in a mate. I'm not sure he had thought about it much. He doesn't think much about anything!

 

Choosing a mate is a complex process. I don't think we can choose wisely until we know ourselves well. Unfortunately some of us got married and now we start to realize things about ourselves and what we want. Getting a separation helps us delve into this realm a little deeper. It may give the spouse time to realize that they don't want to be with someone who doesn't love them.

[tojaz]

Just deleted a very long post laying out my experiences being in what soon will be your husbands shoes. My threads are here, No need to rehash it all.

 

Fact is, I heard every word that you have said from my ex. I was "obsessed" that was the word she used, because I wanted to stand for my marriage, because I valued her. Because I loved her and didn't want her to walk away. What was once committed became obsessed. Why? Because it didn't suit her purposes anymore. She stood before me and told me that she hated the girl that had written every love letter, poem, and card to me. That 13 years was just so she wouldn't be lonely. Security, and now that she was comfortable enough to venture out alone, our time was at an end.

 

Thats what shes done too. Shes out on her own, having experiences, furthering her career and her education..... and hiding from the aftermath.

 

I'll be honest, my first instinct is to try and convince you your wrong. To give you all the reasons to stay and try and save your marriage and find yourself within it. The fact that there is a manipulative undertone to this post to that effect doesn't escape me. There is another factor I hope you consider.....

 

The only real guaranttee is that nothing in your life will ever be the same again, and that includes you.

 

There is another guarantee. Walking is going to cause damage and long standing damage at that. Not just to your husband, but to his family, your friends, and any one else your lives together have touched. Your mind is made up, I feel your here more to gather support then to explore your options, and you have every right to do what is best for you. It is not for me or anyone else to say otherwise. I would suggest though, you read some of the threads of those that have been left behind, hit by the bomb! Myself, MrMayI, LisaUK, and countless others. Respect what is about to happen so that he may be Let go with love rather then watching his world collapse around him.

 

I truly hope you found happiness, everyone deserves that. I found it when found my exwife. I found LS when she took it back.

 

TOJAZ

[Ms_Newleaf]

Hello Again momoftwo,

 

I wondered whether you are already separated/divorced or if you're still contemplating things. I was kinda unclear...

 

If you are already living alone, what are your coping methods for dealing with the sudden lack of security and comfort. I suppose some would say that I deserve it for leaving a man who 'loved' me, but I have to admit that my life is nowhere near as comfortable as it once was and I don't know if I'll ever have that back again.

 

Pretty scary stuff, so I wondered how you're coping with the reality/idea of it in your life?

[You Go Girl]

I was a WAW (walk away wife--google it and read a lot!) in my first marriage that ended a decade ago.

Not that he didn't catapult me into that move--he did.

 

However, the belief that you can't grow unless you leave that person is a wrong belief.

You can grow anyday that you get up and decide to.

And I don't want to try to scare anybody who really believes that they don't love their husband--but, I have something to tell you.

You DO love him.

There's a terrific movie--can't think of it right now, but a woman has an affair, ends up running to her mom crying.

Her mom says, oh get over yourself, is it really that awful to find out that you love your husband?

 

True love? Meh! Forget about it.

It's a Cinderella fantasy.

 

Meanwhile...I know the no-going back I must leave feeling.

And that, can be impossible to suppress.

 

Life goes on..................here I am on my way to divorce #2..........

[trippi1432]

I guess to chime in my two cents worth here, you've outlined the following:

 

a) I just got my graduate degree

b) Now I am better off and can have a future without him

c) I don't need him or the kids, need to find MYSELF for ME

d) If you are unhappy the norm is to leave, get divorced

e) I don't need him for security anymore, I have a graduate degree

 

Hmm, funny...that seems to come back around to A again. Now....as someone who has been going to school for six years and was just left by her husband almost 8 months ago, let me give you some advice. You might have a graduate degree, think you can make your own security now, become you own woman...(hear me roar!!), but at the end of the day you won't be coming home to those children and their laughter or their happiness.

 

When you need someone to comfort you and hold you after a long, stressful day, that man that you say makes you unhappy, but is a great friend and makes you laugh....he won't be there. All of this based on the decision that he was only there to provide you with security and now you think you can make your own.

 

I feel awful for your family, for what you have built that you are now so callously willing to tear apart. Where over-educated forces common sense and logic to leave the minds of women these days, I have no idea....but before you destroy your life to rebuild it....maybe you should look at it from someone else's perspective other than your own.

 

Sorry if this is harsh....but ....it just is what it is.

[wheelwright]

I really feel for you OP. It is a horrible conundrum to work out.

 

There is a triangular theory of love (can't remember whose but you can Google it). I like it, and it helps me to explain why it happens that people so often find there is something irrevocably missing in their M.

 

Passion, intimacy and commitment are the three parts of love. A relationship can have any one, two, or all three. Sometimes, when life has warned us about the dangers of relying on passion and intimacy alone, we go out all guns for commitment, allowing one or both of the other two to subside in our desires. I think we make calculated choices based on which feature we are happiest to compromise at the time. There are a few different ways to respond when years (or decades) later we wake up to what we are missing.

 

a) Affairs (don't!)

 

b) Divorce - the 'it's got to be perfect or it's not worth having' route

 

c) Finding we can settle happily by fulfilling the missing part elsewhere (the hobbies etc people are advising you to consider)

 

d) Settling unhappily

 

Truth be told, it sounds like you settled for a lot of commitment with a bit of pleasant intimacy thrown in.

 

And yes, the people who find all three in spades are very lucky and not the everyday Ms.

 

But a M based solely on commitment without much of the other two thrown in is termed an 'empty marriage'. I'm not sure that would be worth having.

 

We could always have more - we need to ask if we have enough.

 

In my M, we had passion and commitment, but not enough intimacy. Then the passion died for me, so there wasn't enough of the R left to make it worthwhile.

 

Oh, and the commitment part - of course it's the hardest element to walk away from.