Are labels important?

[Fallen Angel]

This is a good example of why I wrote what I did.

 

But you said I coined that phrase as a way to "denigrate and discredit the opinions of people who disagreed with the Unapologetic OW view" and that simply is not true. In fact there are many women here whom I consider reformed OW whose opinion I hold in highest regard, and whose views I certainly can empathize with. So I disclaim your way of defining what I meant when I used the term "reformed" OW. It is simply a distinction between current OW, fOW (who have retained a more openminded view of EMRs) and fOW who have a more rigid perception of right and wrong (rOW).

 

I know that the term has been thrown around as an insult but that was never my intent. I have never used the term reformed OW to insult anyone, nor would I.

[Susmay]

But you said I coined that phrase as a way to "denigrate and discredit the opinions of people who disagreed with the Unapologetic OW view" and that simply is not true. In fact there are many women here whom I consider reformed OW whose opinion I hold in highest regard, and whose views I certainly can empathize with. So I disclaim your way of defining what I meant when I used the term "reformed" OW. It is simply a distinction between current OW, fOW (who have retained a more openminded view of EMRs) and fOW who have a more rigid perception of right and wrong (rOW).

 

I know that the term has been thrown around as an insult but that was never my intent. I have never used the term reformed OW to insult anyone, nor would I.

 

I said nothing about you coining a phrase for that purpose. What I said was that the term had been applied to certain people to denigrate their views etc. I didn't accuse you personally, so please don't pretend I did.

 

Although your repeated statements that ROW are rigid and have a mindset (implied 'closed' compared to certain other open minded people) seems insulting.

 

Could I suggest that a true D day has the effect of opening everybody's minds though.

[jennie-jennie]

Since I think I was the originator of the term reformed OW, and I also consider myself Unapologetic OW, I want to address this.

 

I patently deny what you are saying is the reason I used the term reformed OW. I used it not to discredit anyone's views, but to describe a mindset.

 

I look at a "refomed" OW somewhat like a "born again" Christian. I see them as someone who was a follower of one way of life, until that didn't fit into their plans anymore, and then they changed their mindset. Howvere, after they no longer wished to persue their new way of life, they revert to their former beliefs that anyone who does not walk the straight and narrow path that they are once again on, are heathens. They are unable to see thier own plight in other people going through what they once went through. They tend to be more rigid in defining all OW as less than moral, and all MM as selfish cake-eaters.

 

It is a self-preservation technique. They can look upon their past behaviour which is something they once despised, and say "I despise it again, because I am "reformed"!!! In that way, they have "cleansed themselves" in everyones eyes, but most importantly their own. By speaking out most loudly against the very sin that they were guilty of, they can claim redemption.

 

I say it is self-preservation because I believe that for many "reformed" OW, it is the only way in which they are able to forgive themselves. And they must forgive themselves in order to fully heal from their experience.

 

I do not use that term to cast a bad light on people I consider "reformed", I simply use it to explain the somewhat hard to understand rigidity in someone who one would think could better understand what I am feeling.

 

As to being Unapologetic, I do not use that term to mean that I believe being in an affair is a good thing. I use it to mean that I feel no shame in loving someone and accepting love from someone who freely offered me that love, despite his maritial status.

 

Great post, FA!

 

Not that it really matters, but the phrase "reformed OW" was first told to me by Tami-chan, and this was before you became a member of LS. I have no idea who first coined the phrase or how old it is.

[pureinheart]

We assign labels to ourselves and others all the time. Mostly these are useful in everyday life.

 

In these forums the label Reformed OW has been applied not only to former OW, but even BWs and WSs have been described as being just like ROW. The intention was clearly to denigrate and discredit the opinions of people who disagreed with the Unapologetic OW view.

 

From where I sit it looks like the unapologetic OW are in the minority (on this forum) and seek to discredit the views of everyone else.

 

Hi Susmay,

 

I'm an unapologetic everything, as I refuse to walk in shame concerning anything.

[pureinheart]

Even the labels that are demeaning and meant to demean tells us something. It could tell us something about the person making them, about ourselves that maybe we don't want to see, about the situation that has caused them to be said. Mostly I think they tell us about the other person, at least that's my hope when I hear the negative ones. But I do try to make sure that I'm coming across how I want to come across when I hear them about me. Especially on the internet when its hard to get things across sometimes.

 

CCL

 

Hey CCL.....you always word everything well!!!!

[Susmay]

Great post, FA!

 

Not that it really matters, but the phrase "reformed OW" was first told to me by Tami-chan, and this was before you became a member of LS. I have no idea who first coined the phrase or how old it is.

 

Thank you. I don't know either where the term originated but I do know I didn't ever suggest that it was anything to do with FA.

[Susmay]

Hi Susmay,

 

I'm an unapologetic everything, as I refuse to walk in shame concerning anything.

 

I'm sorry I shouldn't have suggested it is all the "unapologetic" OW. Just some.

[Fallen Angel]

I said nothing about you coining a phrase for that purpose. What I said was that the term had been applied to certain people to denigrate their views etc. I didn't accuse you personally, so please don't pretend I did.

 

Although your repeated statements that ROW are rigid and have a mindset (implied 'closed' compared to certain other open minded people) seems insulting.

 

Could I suggest that a true D day has the effect of opening everybody's minds though.

 

Thank you. I don't know either where the term originated but I do know I didn't ever suggest that it was anything to do with FA.

 

You are right, you did not say I first used that term, I took responsibility for that as I do not recall having seen it used before me, and it appears I may be mistaken in that. However, you did insinuate that it was meant to be an insulting, "denigrating" term when applied to people here at LS. It is not.

 

As to a D-day opening minds, I fail to read your meaning.

[jwi71]

I find the terms "reformed" and "unapologetic" to be very offensive, and not helpful in describing another LS member.

 

I had an affair. I wanted more, so I ended it. I would not have another affair, nor would I encourage another to do so. I am neither "reformed", nor am I an "Other Woman" or a fomer mistress. I am a woman, who in the journey of life, had a relationship with a committed person.

 

I do not wish to re-hash the "Reformed Other Women" or the "Unapologetic MM" threads. Please do not use this thread to do that.

I do wish to discuss the need for labeling and what purpose if any, does it serve?

 

I look forward to reading your thoughts.

 

Labels. Interesting.

 

We all have them, we use them, some even covet them.

 

Some proudly display them, others keep them hidden.

 

Labels include:

 

Murderer, Liberal, Fundamentalist, realist, optimist, college graduate, cheater, stupid, attractive, honest, geek, jock, virgin, wimp, stud, brat, cool....

 

All labels. Some more desirable than others. Some, once attained, are never lost. Some are lost and never again attained.

 

A label can be used to categorize and compartmentalize. To segregate or bring together. To minimize or glorify. To enlighten or cast down.

 

Labeling is a part of human nature. Their use is ubiquitous.

The problem ONLY arises when one gets labeled something they would rather not be labeled. At least publicly labeled.

 

Seldom do you hear of people getting their feathers ruffled over the labels of "great, virtuous, honorable, honest, considerate, genuine, kind, attractive..."

 

Don't like the label? Avoid actions which EARN it.

[Susmay]

You are right, you did not say I first used that term, I took responsibility for that as I do not recall having seen it used before me, and it appears I may be mistaken in that. However, you did insinuate that it was meant to be an insulting, "denigrating" term when applied to people here at LS. It is not.

 

As to a D-day opening minds, I fail to read your meaning.

 

Yes I did say it is often applied in an insulting manner. But I never said it "was meant" to be that way.

 

You actually agreed with me (I thought) when you said:

 

"I know that the term has been thrown around as an insult but that was never my intent. I have never used the term reformed OW to insult anyone, nor would I."

 

In other words it seems we both agree that it is used as an insult.

 

Why do you keep misrepresenting what I wrote? I never mentioned you at all, yet you leap to defend yourself at the same time accusing me of saying things I haven't.

 

As to my last comment about opening minds, consider it a little joke of mine. Not meant to be offensive and not directed at you personally (as you seem to assume things are directed at you when they're not) but at all of us who are here for our various reasons.

[IfWishesWereHorses]

FA, as a believer, being a "born again" Christian means to accept that we were born into sin it IN NO WAY implies that we were heathens prior to accepting and repenting. Here is an example where the label isn't as insulting as someone who drastically misdefines its meaning.

 

Also, rOW has been around as long as I've been on this site.

 

I'm a mother, wife, daughter, sister, nurse, Christian, ect... I own any label I have chosen for myself as well as some that were chosen for me. You could also call me judgemental, by nature we all judge. What I am NOT is dishonest BUT anyone who wants to call me that can go right ahead, it doesn't hurt me or bother me a bit because the ONLY people who matter know different and the accusers will look as uninformed as someone who states that born again Christians changed their heathen ways.

Edited April 12, 2010 by IfWishesWereHorses

[Fallen Angel]

FA, as a believer, being a "born again" Christian means to accept that we were born into sin it IN NO WAY implies that we were heathens prior to accepting and repenting. Here is an example where the label isn't as insulting as someone who drastcally misdefines its meaning.

 

Also, rOW has been around as long as I've been on this site.

 

I'm a mother, wife, daughter, sister, nurse, Christian, ect... I own any label I have chosen for myself as well as some that were chosen for me. You could also call me judgemental, by nature we all judge. What I am NOT is dishonest BUT anyone who wants to call me that can go right ahead, it doesn't hurt me or bother me a bit because the ONLY people who matter know different and the accusers will look as uninformed as someone who states that born again Christians changed their heathen ways.

 

You are correct and I apologize. I should have said Reformed Christian as opposed to Born Again. That was a mistake on my part, and I hope you accept my apology with all the sincerity with which I offer it.

[bittersweet memories]

Great post, FA!

 

Not that it really matters, but the phrase "reformed OW" was first told to me by Tami-chan, and this was before you became a member of LS. I have no idea who first coined the phrase or how old it is.

 

jennie-jennie,

 

I actually thought you were the originator of the term "reformed OW". Since i heard you use it so much. Not that it matters.

[jennie-jennie]

jennie-jennie,

 

I actually thought you were the originator of the term "reformed OW". Since i heard you use it so much. Not that it matters.

 

LOL You give me too much credit! I really like the term though. It explained so much to me when I was new on LS, and it still helps me understand the mindset of many OW.

 

I was not the first to mention Unapologetic OW either, by the way. Nor split self affairs!

[lolapalooza]

Who cares who came up with it? My concern here is that both terms are being used in a derogatory manner. I don't think it's helpful to anyone. Since it doesn't seem to do anything but be derisive, I was curious why people continued to behave in this manner.

 

Neither of these terms have been used towards me, and I am thankful for that. (Perhaps I just haven't been around long enough to be called any names.) When I've seen them used in reference to others, it does not the conversation forward- it just needlessly stagnates it in a mess of name-calling and hard feelings.

 

Perhaps my original question should have asked why some feel the need to be so nasty toward others on this board.

Edited April 12, 2010 by lolapalooza

[pureinheart]

Who cares who came up with it? My concern here is that both terms are being used in a derogatory manner. I don't think it's helpful to anyone. Since it doesn't seem to do anything but be derisive, I was curious why people continued to behave in this manner.

 

Neither of these terms have been used towards me, and I am thankful for that. (Perhaps I just haven't been around long enough to be called any names.) When I've seen them used in reference to others, it does not the conversation forward- it just needlessly stagnates it in a mess of name-calling and hard feelings.

 

Perhaps my original question should have asked why some feel the need to be so nasty toward others on this board.

 

Hi Lola,

 

Ok, what's your story, what happened to you as I sense there is anger in yourself concerning something.

 

The ladies were talking back and forth, on topic....no issues with the other and this upset you.

 

Which part of the triangle are you in, if you've stated this already then I missed it , if not how are you doing?

 

It's obvious there is a problem with reformed/nonreformed, although I have to ask, do you have a special problem with one particular poster on this board/ an OW. I would ask you this in privite, although you do not have the PM feature yet. I noticed this in another thread in the Infidelity forum...just asking....

 

FTR These boards have gotten much better...as it used to be a free for all. There is still back biting here and there, although it's rare now.

 

There is anomosity due to the circumstances...it has frustrated me also. IMO there was a need to give definition in the form of labels and this definition did give a degree of order to this forum.

 

This being the OM/OW forum,while it may aggrivate those ladies who are labeled as BS's, still this is a discussion forum for OW and OM who find themselves with a MP.

[OWoman]

Who cares who came up with it? My concern here is that both terms are being used in a derogatory manner. I don't think it's helpful to anyone. Since it doesn't seem to do anything but be derisive, I was curious why people continued to behave in this manner.

 

Neither of these terms have been used towards me, and I am thankful for that. (Perhaps I just haven't been around long enough to be called any names.) When I've seen them used in reference to others, it does not the conversation forward- it just needlessly stagnates it in a mess of name-calling and hard feelings.

 

Perhaps my original question should have asked why some feel the need to be so nasty toward others on this board.

 

Lola, when I chose to label myself an "unapologetic OW", I did it for political reasons. No one had labelled me that - in fact, I'm not sure if the term had even been used here before - but I chose to define myself in that way on LS because OWs were expected to be:

* naive - so smitten by the MM that they couldn't see just how badly they were being screwed over; or

* repentant - either going through the pain of trying to detach (and seeking help in doing so) from the MM, or having detached from the MM seeking strength to persevere in NC despite the odd off-day, or completely "cured", returning here to warn the noobs of the dangers of being an OW.

 

I was none of those - and was tired of being airbrushed out of the picture as if I didn't exist, simply because my views, experience and morality didn't match with those of some of the other posters. So, I made myself a label, stuck it on and stood up to be counted. And, since then, there have been some other OWs who have also chosen to identify with this term, so in that sense I feel I've met my objective - which was to open up the space to recognise that OWs aren't always naive or repentant; they weren't always weak and broken, only in an A because they "couldn't do any better for themselves" by catching themselves 100% of some random dude and shoving a ring on his finger and shackles around his ankles. There are other options - and I wanted to make that visible.

 

If you find that offensive - I'm not going to apologise. I don't apologise for the colour of my skin, my sexual preference or my nationality, and I'm not about to apologise for the way I define myself either. Some people find it offensive when gay people refuse to pretend they're not gay, or when black people refuse to blend in and become invisible, or when someone single shows up at a dinner party without a partner... because it challenges the comfortable sense of "normality" that allows them to believe what they are is how everybody is, or should be. I make no apologies for causing those people discomfort. I'm me - and part of that is having had several As with MMs, and having married a fMM, and being happy together - heinous as that may appear to some people. It's me, it's who and how I choose to be - and if that offends anyone's sensibilities, they'll just have to get used to it or crawl back under a rock where they can ignore the rest of the world.

[NoIDidn't]

Interesting observations, Lola.

 

I agree with jwi71 about the ways that we use labels, but some labels in this particular forum are meant to assign people into certain camps - an "us" against "them". I've been posting in this forum for a few years, and can speak about the trends that have come and gone. The labels are part of the latest trend of trying to silence anyone that disagrees with a minority opinion on EMAs.

 

This forum serves no political purpose, but the insulting labels are. Calling a former OW "reformed" is like being labelled a "liberal" in the political world. It limits your freedom to express yourself here. And that is not, IMO, good for this forum.

 

This forum is for the support of those in Rs with committed partners. Its for people needing to come here to speak about the challenges of such a R, to find others in the same situation that can relate to those challenges, and to get advice on how to handle it or get out of it, IMPO.

 

The labels that people give to themselves are not the issue. Its the labels that they insultingly give to others that cause the issue. Considering the way the labels have been used here, I have to assume that those handing out the labels must feel they are the opposite of the labels they give out in some way. I get that they think calling someone bitter means that they must think themselves to be pleasant and agreeable. But how exactly does that help the discussion along? It doesn't. The thread then becomes about that issue.

 

But I don't think the use of these labels is going to stop until the MODs step in and state explicitly what is and isn't acceptable. Until then, the best we can do is put the posters that insist on name-calling in sideways manners on Ignore.

[fooled once]

Interesting observations, Lola.

 

I agree with jwi71 about the ways that we use labels, but some labels in this particular forum are meant to assign people into certain camps - an "us" against "them". I've been posting in this forum for a few years, and can speak about the trends that have come and gone. The labels are part of the latest trend of trying to silence anyone that disagrees with a minority opinion on EMAs.

 

This forum serves no political purpose, but the insulting labels are. Calling a former OW "reformed" is like being labelled a "liberal" in the political world. It limits your freedom to express yourself here. And that is not, IMO, good for this forum.

 

This forum is for the support of those in Rs with committed partners. Its for people needing to come here to speak about the challenges of such a R, to find others in the same situation that can relate to those challenges, and to get advice on how to handle it or get out of it, IMPO.

 

The labels that people give to themselves are not the issue. Its the labels that they insultingly give to others that cause the issue. Considering the way the labels have been used here, I have to assume that those handing out the labels must feel they are the opposite of the labels they give out in some way. I get that they think calling someone bitter means that they must think themselves to be pleasant and agreeable. But how exactly does that help the discussion along? It doesn't. The thread then becomes about that issue.

 

But I don't think the use of these labels is going to stop until the MODs step in and state explicitly what is and isn't acceptable. Until then, the best we can do is put the posters that insist on name-calling in sideways manners on Ignore.

 

Excellent post NiD! I completely agree with you. It is sad that labels are being thrown around AT people by people who have no idea about that person. They are just deciding that they are "label". It causes all kinds of rifts and then those issues are carried into posts. Then it turns into a pissing contest, which doesn't help the original poster.

 

Instead of taking pot shots at others, posters need to stick to the original question/problem/whatever and focus on supporting or giving advise. Some posters take things so personal when advise or thoughts are given and end up turning the entire post into all about them. We all can provide insight and thoughts to each post and everyone has something to add.

 

But the bullsh*t has to stop or this entire forum will become worthless.