SomewhatExperienced Posted April 12, 2010 Posted April 12, 2010 You're exactly right Shadow. Nice guys get clingy, have no confidence and are entirely insecure. Hence the term "nice guy" I hate this idea that to be a "nice guy" that it always has to go hand in hand with being weak, clingy, having no confidence and being a doormat for everyone to walk on. This also implies that men who are confident, strong willed, etc are all jerks. Guess the f*** what? There are actually very nice, compassionate men out there who make excellent partners who are also confident, laid back on won't let women mess around with them.
grogster Posted April 12, 2010 Posted April 12, 2010 I hate this idea that to be a "nice guy" that it always has to go hand in hand with being weak, clingy, having no confidence and being a doormat for everyone to walk on. This also implies that men who are confident, strong willed, etc are all jerks. Guess the f*** what? There are actually very nice, compassionate men out there who make excellent partners who are also confident, laid back on won't let women mess around with them. This observation should be so obvious that it need not have to be said. Unfortunately, if this Thread is any indication, it does need to be said. Nothing in human experience, as opposed to messageboard posturing, supports this false dichotomy. Nice guys can be hard as steel.
Star Gazer Posted April 12, 2010 Posted April 12, 2010 There are actually very nice, compassionate men out there who make excellent partners who are also confident, laid back on won't let women mess around with them. Exactly right. My BF is one of them.
espec10001 Posted April 12, 2010 Posted April 12, 2010 There is no such thing as a "nice guy". There are guys who don't seem to have to work that hard to get women, and there are guys that have to do more work for whatever reason. Bottom line is for a dude, getting a chick is work. Depending on other factors such as looks, money, social status, popularity, determine just how much work he has to put in. Some guys can just say hi and get a number and hit it that night. Others gotta go through the grinder and pay for expensive dates to get essentially the same thing. The dude that can get the digits and get it quicker and spend maybe $40 to bed her is MUCH smarter than the dude who has to spend $4,000 to bed her. It's just a matter of how much $$$ you spend til you bed her.
Chicago_Guy Posted April 13, 2010 Posted April 13, 2010 I hate this idea that to be a "nice guy" that it always has to go hand in hand with being weak, clingy, having no confidence and being a doormat for everyone to walk on. This also implies that men who are confident, strong willed, etc are all jerks. Guess the f*** what? There are actually very nice, compassionate men out there who make excellent partners who are also confident, laid back on won't let women mess around with them. I agree. Men like that probably make great husbands, but women who are immature and play games will never be with those guys.
Ruby Slippers Posted April 13, 2010 Posted April 13, 2010 (edited) I know the type you're talking about. Wimps. A man with low confidence does not go after what he wants, so his targets will never be more than consolation prizes. He knows it and they know it. In my view, these are among the most undesirable of men. Edited April 13, 2010 by Ruby Slippers
espec10001 Posted April 13, 2010 Posted April 13, 2010 I know the type you're talking about. Wimps. A man with low confidence does not go after what he wants, so his targets will never be more than consolation prizes. He knows it and they know it. In my view, these are among the most undesirable of men. Ahh, being a man, let me tell you a thing about your term "wimp". Wimps are simply men who do not understand themselves YET. They do not understand their environment or conditions sufficiently YET. Some men take longer than others to grow and fulfill their WILL. But their will shall be fulfilled nonetheless. Any man who bases his self worth upon how the opposite sex sees him is only getting half of the picture You'd be wise to keep your criticism of men to yourself because you simply do not understand much like I do not understand what it is like to be a woman.
Engadget Posted April 13, 2010 Posted April 13, 2010 Exactly right. My BF is one of them. Yep. Being a nice guy doesn't mean insecure, clingy doofus. I'm laid back, into getting to know women first, and I don't take **** from anyone. I also have my Mr. Hyde side where I can be a charming player if I choose to, but usually that's for the initial hook for a girl I'm interested in.
lino Posted April 13, 2010 Posted April 13, 2010 Your (ex)boyfriend didn't sound like a nice guy to me at all. Assuming whatever you wrote about him is accurate, it gives me the impression that he's just a pansie.
Ruby Slippers Posted April 13, 2010 Posted April 13, 2010 Ahh, being a man, let me tell you a thing about your term "wimp". Wimps are simply men who do not understand themselves YET. They do not understand their environment or conditions sufficiently YET. Some men take longer than others to grow and fulfill their WILL. But their will shall be fulfilled nonetheless. Any man who bases his self worth upon how the opposite sex sees him is only getting half of the picture You'd be wise to keep your criticism of men to yourself because you simply do not understand much like I do not understand what it is like to be a woman. I've known men and women who have been wimps -- or had a reasonable level of confidence -- all their lives. No matter how much more I had to learn (and everyone always has tons more to learn), I've never been a wimp. Even if a wimp is defined as a man who hasn't figured it out yet, he's still a man to be avoided for a relationship, as he's not stable and grounded enough to be reliable.
Agent Thomas Posted April 13, 2010 Posted April 13, 2010 Everybody in this forum should read the book: "No More Mr. Nice Guy!" Highlights on this. It is true, Nice Guys are pretty much flawed as all hell.
skydiveaddict Posted April 13, 2010 Posted April 13, 2010 I've read that book. you're right everyone here should read it
carhill Posted April 13, 2010 Posted April 13, 2010 Ha, I ordered the hard-bound version NMMNG, along with a tile-setting book, the other day. Arrived yesterday. Retiring to the man-cave now. Ug.
Nikki Sahagin Posted April 13, 2010 Posted April 13, 2010 This is why i'm off guys altogether at the moment, except my male buddies. They are either so nice they come across as feminine, so mean they are just complete jerks, or seem really nice and cool but secretly have girlfriends (as I found out last week). At the moment, its singleville for me!
alphamale Posted April 13, 2010 Posted April 13, 2010 Time to adjust my people picker and go for more outwardly confident men. yes thats what you should do shadowplay
GoodOnPaper Posted April 14, 2010 Posted April 14, 2010 Everybody in this forum should read the book: "No More Mr. Nice Guy!" Highlights on this. It is true, Nice Guys are pretty much flawed as all hell. Be careful what you worship . . . The book and online discussion board are great for self-awareness purposes. If you are in a position where you can retreat from the world for awhile and start your life over, NMMNG is probably workable as a program. Otherwise, a number of paradoxes will sooner or later crop up. My impression is that NMMNG treats a man's "nice guy" tendencies and their authentic values like oil and water. Skim off the oil ("niceness") and you have your new, confident, alpha-like self that can approach and land the hot women that you were too afraid to approach before. (To give NMMNG credit, there is a big emphasis on avoiding relationships with said hot women who are not healthy emotionally -- but it's always about getting women who are universally attractive, not the ones who are attractive to you.) I've come to believe that a man's "nice guy" tendencies and their authentic values are more like salt and water. They thoroughly mix. Some men are more naturally sensitive than others -- that doesn't necessarily mean said sensitive men are wimps, no matter how many women on their own high pedestals say that is the case. Some men are not naturals at car repair, carpentry, or plumbing, but that doesn't mean that these men can't be masculine. Work to own who you are -- for some of us, it's just a long, long process.
Ruby Slippers Posted April 14, 2010 Posted April 14, 2010 Ha, I ordered the hard-bound version NMMNG, along with a tile-setting book, the other day. Arrived yesterday. Retiring to the man-cave now. Ug. *brings you beer, then leaves you alone* I actually ordered that book and intend to read it because I think it might give me some insight into my own partner picking patterns. GoodOnPaper, I find the most undesirable quality of nice guys to be their placating behavior. They are insecure and afraid of loss and scarcity, so they lie to a woman's face for all kinds of reasons that boil down to emotional immaturity and weak will.
SarahRose Posted April 14, 2010 Posted April 14, 2010 At least based on my relationship experience. All the guys I've dated who seemed extremely nice at first and were rejected by many girls in the past ended up turning on/betraying me. I tried to keep an open mind and not reject guys for the same reasons that many women do, but it came back to bite me in the arse. I'm starting to think there was a reason these guys were rejected by other women, because they're weak...and you can't count on people who are weak to treat you well. In fact I don't think men like this know how to handle someone who genuinely accepts them, because they're so used to rejection. Being loved by someone throws them for a loop. Usually they'll come on too strong, act clingy, and scare a girl off. But if a woman sticks around, they don't know how to handle it. Time to adjust my people picker and go for more outwardly confident men. I think the problem is their very low self-esteem. They think they are worthless so they think any girl that likes them must have something wrong with them. I also believe they have zero clue on how to relate to women or sustain a relationship so the relationship becomes a self full-filling prophecy of doom
GoodOnPaper Posted April 14, 2010 Posted April 14, 2010 GoodOnPaper, I find the most undesirable quality of nice guys to be their placating behavior. They are insecure and afraid of loss and scarcity, so they lie to a woman's face for all kinds of reasons that boil down to emotional immaturity and weak will. Chicken-and-egg. Being concerned with loss and scarcity depends on whether attention from the opposite sex can be taken for granted.
2.50 a gallon Posted April 14, 2010 Posted April 14, 2010 I was brought up to be a "nice guy", to treat women with respect, etc. Deep down I was a poet, I loved everything about life, from the form and texture of a flower, to simply just kicking back and marveling at the whites and grays of a cloud interacting with the multiple shades of blue in the sky. And I had a great romantic imagination The problem was my size, I had the appearance of a 120 pound weakling, and being a nice guy I got labeled a wimp. In order to survive I had to drop the "nice guy" image and kill the poet that lived in my soul. Ladies love outlaws, I became a total player, women were only good for one thing. My anthem was "Why Don't We Get Drunk and Screw?" Funny thing, the less I cared the more they pursued, and the more they tried to tame me. It reached a point where I no longer had a desire to be intimate or loved. In fact there were times in my life that I looked down upon love as a weakness.
EasyHeart Posted April 14, 2010 Posted April 14, 2010 I think the problem is their very low self-esteem. They think they are worthless so they think any girl that likes them must have something wrong with them. I also believe they have zero clue on how to relate to women or sustain a relationship so the relationship becomes a self full-filling prophecy of doom I think you're exactly right. Much of this thread has been a debate about semantics. "Nice guy" does NOT mean a man who is respectful, empathetic and kind to other people. Being nice to other people does not make you a "nice guy". Having low self-esteem makes you a "nice guy". It is a term that, in the context of romantic relationships, has acquired the meaning of needy, insecure men who are desperate for affection and will do anything to get it. They are the male counterpart to needy, clingy women. They're kind of fun at first, because it's a big ego boost to be with someone who pretty much worships you. But it gets old quick. Especially when they tell you they love you and you're their soulmate two weeks after you meet them. There's a lot of room between "players" and "nice guys". In fact, I'll go so far as to say players and nice guys basically have the same issues -- immaturity and low self-esteem -- they just express it in diametrically opposed ways. In the middle are confident, secure, mature men. That's where you want to be.
Kaniut Posted April 21, 2010 Posted April 21, 2010 Shadowplay-I'm glad you posted this. You took my thoughts and put them into words. I've had the same experiences. I've noticed that whenever guys tell me they're nice they usually end up not being nice at all. Actually, they turn out to be a-holes. But really, I would rather someone not have to tell me how nice they are. Words don't mean a thing if your actions don't reflect what you're saying. And although it's possible, I think there may be other reasons these guys were rejected by other women, not just because they're weak. Also, yeah. Being loved by someone does throw them for a loop. I think in some cases not necessarily this one, it's because they're so used to women playing games that when a woman finally comes along who doesnt play games, they don't know what to do. Just a guess Hahhaaha! People picker-I like it.
allanworks Posted April 21, 2010 Posted April 21, 2010 At least based on my relationship experience. All the guys I've dated who seemed extremely nice at first and were rejected by many girls in the past ended up turning on/betraying me. I tried to keep an open mind and not reject guys for the same reasons that many women do, but it came back to bite me in the arse. I'm starting to think there was a reason these guys were rejected by other women, because they're weak...and you can't count on people who are weak to treat you well. In fact I don't think men like this know how to handle someone who genuinely accepts them, because they're so used to rejection. Being loved by someone throws them for a loop. Usually they'll come on too strong, act clingy, and scare a girl off. But if a woman sticks around, they don't know how to handle it. Time to adjust my people picker and go for more outwardly confident men. your not dating the nice guys sounds like your dating the creapy ones
allanworks Posted April 21, 2010 Posted April 21, 2010 Shadowplay-I'm glad you posted this. You took my thoughts and put them into words. I've had the same experiences. I've noticed that whenever guys tell me they're nice they usually end up not being nice at all. Actually, they turn out to be a-holes. But really, I would rather someone not have to tell me how nice they are. Words don't mean a thing if your actions don't reflect what you're saying. And although it's possible, I think there may be other reasons these guys were rejected by other women, not just because they're weak. Also, yeah. Being loved by someone does throw them for a loop. I think in some cases not necessarily this one, it's because they're so used to women playing games that when a woman finally comes along who doesnt play games, they don't know what to do. Just a guess Hahhaaha! People picker-I like it. nice guys dont tell you there nice. there usally the ones to nervice to talk to you.and prefure the women to start the conversation so they can open up.they usally love bieng loved back.just some are not used to it there the ones that are getting on the creapy side
pantherj Posted April 21, 2010 Posted April 21, 2010 You can't have a debate about 'nice guys' when the term is undefined. What we have in this mixed up thread is each person trying to define a 'nice guy'. The term means different things to different people.
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