Spin on the nice guy issue

[Els]

Well, see, even if they were both twins, Girl #2 would probably appear 'hotter' in the party because she's flirting around, getting attention, and all dolled up.

[GoodOnPaper]

So are you saying guys who are attracted to high maintenance girls like emotional UPS and DOWNS and these women show them that? So, with a regular relationship good girls treat them nice and guys actually find that "boring". Cause that's the topic of this thread.

 

Nice treatment in general is good, but it is "boring" in the bedroom. IMO, it's not necessarily the high-maintenance "hot" girl herself that is appealing -- it's that it is very apparent that if she is into you, she will generate a lot of emotional excitement.

 

Look, I hate extreme emotional ups and downs -- but in a relationship, I want my emotional and physical connection with a woman to be electric. Unfortunately, in my limited experience, nice in general has translated into "nicer" in the bedroom. I just want a little taste of the rock star experience that seems to come so easily to players -- ultimately, if this kind of physical and emotional connection was there, whether the woman is "hot" or a "girl-next-door" doesn't matter.

[marsle85]

... Girls are NOT split up this way. In fact, I've never met ANYONE with those characteristics.

 

A girl will like the nice guy - if he's also sexy, not overeager and intelligent. Men will like the nice girl - if she's also sexy, not overeager and intelligent.

 

I think we have the desire to group things in black/white. It simply isn't this way.

[Dexter Morgan]

You know, when you see all these posts about guys claiming that women don't really want good men - that they themselves are caring, loyal, respectful etc etc but the girls only go for the good-looking arrogant bastards with the flashy car who take a different girl home each week?

 

Well, think about it. Isn't it generally the same in reverse?

 

not with me. I don't need a supermodel, or anything of the sort at all. Sure attraction is important, but what I find attractive most times, other guys would shrug their shoulders at.

 

numerous times it was a woman's personality that attracts me. I was highly attracted to a girl long ago who was easily 20 pounds overweight, but when she talked her face just lit up with that smile. And it was her personality that made it that way.

 

Now I typically won't even bother with the women that look like they are all that and a bag of chips and looks like they know it. Might as well have a sign that says "conceited and fickle" on them.

 

 

The first is the homely girl. The laid-back type who's very accommodating and understanding (almost to a fault, even), doesn't really party, doesn't have a laundry list of requirements for a man, doesn't throw a huge fuss when you forget her birthday. May be pretty, but generally doesn't spend all that much time and money on their appearance

 

well they can't be homely and pretty all in one. just like there are nice guys who are reasonably attractive, just not an adonis, but homely is an entirely different matter.

 

 

The other type is the 'hot' party girl. Not necessarily prettier than the first type, but certainly spends a LOT of time on appearance. Styled hair, makeup, heels, push-up bras, the latest fashions and all that jazz.

 

no thanks, I stay away from conceited women like that.

 

 

Loves parties and bars.

 

and this is a DEFINITE no thanks!!!

 

 

Hint: Men, if you are dismayed about the hot girl overlooking you because you're a 'nice guy', maybe you're just overlooking the 'girl-next-doors' who might appreciate you for who you are.

 

Not me, I don't prefer the "hot" girl who KNOWS she is "hot". that is a personality trait I want nothing to do with.

[A O]

AO, what if the thread was about the reverse: pick any of the quazillionth threads on here about how, allegedly, women only go for bad boys. What would you (or have you) responded on these threads?

Its only the reverse if you too believe that the chief, if not only source, of a nice guys woes is the choices they make. As you can see, I don't believe that. I see this whole premise as being little more than a band-aid solution that'll work with some, for sure, but is not the most effective solution over all. Not to mention that I think the OP is frustrated by not only the nice guys, but the girls she thinks they mostly go for. She paints a pretty disparaging picture of these girls over all, which has lead me to wonder as to how much all of this is designed to actually help the so-called nice guys and how much this is designed to help her and people like her.

 

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[marsle85]

I DEFINITELY spend 30mins+ before going out, but when I'm going anywhere relatively casual- I throw on flats/babytee/no makeup.

 

And where do you get this stuff - slumber parties? I'm 20 and the only slumber party my friends have is when I crash at their pad because I'm trashed.

 

WHOOPS. Guilty.

[MrNate]

... Girls are NOT split up this way. In fact, I've never met ANYONE with those characteristics.

 

A girl will like the nice guy - if he's also sexy, not overeager and intelligent. Men will like the nice girl - if she's also sexy, not overeager and intelligent.

 

I think we have the desire to group things in black/white. It simply isn't this way.

 

I agree 100%

[AD1980]

... Girls are NOT split up this way. In fact, I've never met ANYONE with those characteristics.

 

A girl will like the nice guy - if he's also sexy, not overeager and intelligent. Men will like the nice girl - if she's also sexy, not overeager and intelligent.

 

I think we have the desire to group things in black/white. It simply isn't this way.

 

I agree..Just being nice alone doesnt make anyone attractive it just make them a nice person..

 

If you're nice and unattratcive[like me] then chances are you're not gonna have much sucess romantically..

 

I dont think im owed a women becasue im nice..It would be nice but the fact is im not aesthtically pleasing[at least i dont think]..Such is life

[Kamille]

Its only the reverse if you too believe that the chief, if not only source, of a nice guys woes is the choices they make. As you can see, I don't believe that. I see this whole premise as being little more than a band-aid solution that'll work with some, for sure, but is not the most effective solution over all. Not to mention that I think the OP is frustrated by not only the nice guys, but the girls she thinks they mostly go for. She paints a pretty disparaging picture of these girls over all, which has lead me to wonder as to how much all of this is designed to actually help the so-called nice guys and how much this is designed to help her and people like her.

 

.

 

Okay, yet, as far as I know Elswyth is in a long term long-distance relationship. So clearly, she isn't creating this thread for her own benefit.

 

 

You said:

 

First off, the underlying theme I get here is that the source of their woes is picking, going for, the wrong type of girls. I also detect a certain resentment about that and their outlook in general. Hence, your advice is geared towards influencing them towards a utopia that suits you every bit as much as it suits them.

 

There is a parallel in the nice guys thread: Women are going for the wrong kind of guys. It's usually easy to detect resentment about the fact that women keep picking other men over the participants who feel slighted. Hence, I could also say that in this thread, the advice given to women is geared towards influencing them towards a utopia that suits men every bit as much as it would suit women.

 

So, in essence, would you agree that be it a "Nice guy" or a "Nice girl" thread, the general tone is condescending towards the gender that is being admonished for its choices?

 

Or is your point that someone should help Nice guys at all cost and that nice guys have it rougher than anyone else on the dating market?

[homersheineken]

Trust me on this. Guys who claim they CAN'T get a girl will take whatever comes their way.

 

If a Guy is back burnering a woman it's because he has other real options.

That really doesn't make him a "nice guy" now does it?

Why can't I be a nice guy and still have options?

[A O]

Okay, yet, as far as I know Elswyth is in a long term long-distance relationship. So clearly, she isn't creating this thread for her own benefit.

Being in a relationship doesn't negate the motivation behind a person's views. Its a minor point over all, but this thread has more to with how she sees things and how she wishes for things to be than actually really trying to help 'nice' folk IMO.

 

 

Or is your point that someone should help Nice guys at all cost and that nice guys have it rougher than anyone else on the dating market?

I'm not interested in making this a gender issue. I see a problem, and I think there's a better way to fix it than what the OP advocates. As this is quite possibly the first 'nice guy' thread I've ever responded to in close to six years of perusing relationship message boards (and if not, one of very, very few) I'm thankful that I don't have a lot of baggage around this issue that some folk seem to have.

 

 

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[carhill]

To me, having 'options' means having interest in multiple potentials for the pursuit of a relationship. It doesn't mean manipulating someone so they *think* one is interested in them more than what is reality. Having been 'back-burnered', I know exactly how that dynamic works. It's a mind-f*ck whose sole purpose is to keep the f*ckee's attention focused on the 'person with options'.

 

Nothing nice about that, IMO.

[Kamille]

 

 

I'm not interested in making this a gender issue. I see a problem, and I think there's a better way to fix it than what the OP advocates. As this is quite possibly the first 'nice guy' thread I've ever responded to in close to six years of perusing relationship message boards (and if not, one of very, very few) I'm thankful that I don't have a lot of baggage around this issue that some folk seem to have.

 

 

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Ah good. So basically your responses would be the same. Whether the subject is nice girls or nice guys, you feel the topic is condescending towards the group being criticized for their dating choices.

 

So what is a better way to fix things for these nice guys and girls?

[A O]

^ ^ ^

That's right, they're one in the same to me. They're nice people with whom, as I've mentioned a few times now, either think that 'niceness' is all they need to bring to the table or have very little to offer other than being nice. Henceforth, developing a more complete, well-rounded individual is what ultimately, will be of more benefit to them than being pickier with whom they show interest to.

 

 

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[homersheineken]

To me, having 'options' means having interest in multiple potentials for the pursuit of a relationship. It doesn't mean manipulating someone so they *think* one is interested in them more than what is reality. Having been 'back-burnered', I know exactly how that dynamic works. It's a mind-f*ck whose sole purpose is to keep the f*ckee's attention focused on the 'person with options'.

 

Nothing nice about that, IMO.

 

That's the fault of both parties for not talking about what the relationship really is. It doesn't make the 'options' guy bad unless he was deliberately misleading you. Otherwise you should assume you're not exclusive unless you talk about it or there obvious signs that you are exclusive.

[carhill]

People 'talk'. Are you or have you ever heard a salesperson? That's what I'm talking about. The only way to effectively fight someone with that kind of manipulative skill is to simply feel nothing; not care, at all. Then you'll be safe.

 

These emotional/spritual vampires exist at all levels of relationships, from friendships on up to marital partners. Again, caring less or not at all is the only effective defense.

[homersheineken]

People 'talk'. Are you or have you ever heard a salesperson? That's what I'm talking about. The only way to effectively fight someone with that kind of manipulative skill is to simply feel nothing; not care, at all. Then you'll be safe.

 

These emotional/spritual vampires exist at all levels of relationships, from friendships on up to marital partners. Again, caring less or not at all is the only effective defense.

 

Taht's different than what I'm talking about. You're talking about deliberate misrepresentation and manipulation. I'm not.

 

I'm saying you can have options and still be nice.

[carhill]

As long as the optioning is disclosed and transparent, niceness is preserved.

 

Think of it like a healthy open marriage. Everyone is disclosed. No secrets. No lies. Nice

[homersheineken]

As long as the optioning is disclosed and transparent, niceness is preserved.

 

Think of it like a healthy open marriage. Everyone is disclosed. No secrets. No lies. Nice

Oh I agree I'm just saying that having options and niceness aren't exclusive.

[Zed]

You know, when you see all these posts about guys claiming that women don't really want good men - that they themselves are caring, loyal, respectful etc etc but the girls only go for the good-looking arrogant bastards with the flashy car who take a different girl home each week?

 

Well, think about it. Isn't it generally the same in reverse? Men always claim they want a woman who understands them, who's caring and kind and loyal, who's actually a buddy instead of demanding and clingy, etc. Well, I know this is a gross generalization, but I can very, very roughly divide the girls I know into two types.

 

I get your point. I don’t even think your two examples matter because no matter what a woman does, her physical allure is beholden to age, genetics, and environment. Very few of us could ever compete with say a Aishwarya Rai and a lot of us don't have money to do a frankenstein like Heidi Montag. There is only so much you can do, since women have been told ad nausem that men are visual and you can't get through the door unless he's stimulated.Still, I have seen what you describe as well on message boards and in the real world. All these purported nice guys, voicing their contempt about being overlooked by all these women, yet the women in question that they feel entitled should notice them are of course the very “hot”, extremely physically attractive ones. It’s not the normal or more average counterpart that they are worried about convincing that they are nice and worth the effort.

 

From what I personally see, are guys ranting about women looking for exciting jerks fail to notice that a lot of guys prefer the drama laden, fun exciting girl as well. Anecdotally I see pretty average, normal guys struggling to keep a relationship going with unmedicated Bi-Polars, drug addled strippers, grasping gold diggers, and drop dead boring babes, because well there so hot and exciting. But I notice the minute you change the scenario to the nice girl (after all a woman can just stand there and get laid) then somehow its different, because nice guys have to work so much harder and they often get the hard knock life of getting a lot less in return.

[gypsy_nicky]

You know, when you see all these posts about guys claiming that women don't really want good men - that they themselves are caring, loyal, respectful etc etc but the girls only go for the good-looking arrogant bastards with the flashy car who take a different girl home each week?

 

Well, think about it. Isn't it generally the same in reverse? Men always claim they want a woman who understands them, who's caring and kind and loyal, who's actually a buddy instead of demanding and clingy, etc. Well, I know this is a gross generalization, but I can very, very roughly divide the girls I know into two types.

 

The first is the homely girl. The laid-back type who's very accommodating and understanding (almost to a fault, even), doesn't really party, doesn't have a laundry list of requirements for a man, doesn't throw a huge fuss when you forget her birthday. May be pretty, but generally doesn't spend all that much time and money on their appearance - they can throw on a baby tee, jeans and flats and head out without any makeup. Tends to spend more time at the movies or slumber parties with friends than at bars. Would most likely just try to smile and say 'it's okay' if the bf apologizes for having forgotten her birthday.

 

The other type is the 'hot' party girl. Not necessarily prettier than the first type, but certainly spends a LOT of time on appearance. Styled hair, makeup, heels, push-up bras, the latest fashions and all that jazz. Loves parties and bars. Spends at least half an hour primping (not including the shower and cleansing routine!) before going out. Perhaps because of the way society has treated them, or perhaps because their personality type predisposes them to it, they seem to feel entitled to Mr. Perfect, and have a HUGE list of requirements, often superficial, for him. May also be caring and loyal, but usually not understanding and not a buddy, nor do they try to be. Will not try and share a man's hobby, often drags the poor bf on 5-hour shopping sprees when they can't get any of their girlfriends (hey, that latest fashion attire has to come from somewhere!), will likely sulk for 3 days if they don't like the birthday present the bf gave them.

 

Well, guess which type is more likely to have a guy? Almost ALL of my friends who have boyfriends are in the latter group; and there are so many in the former, the nicest and sweetest girls you could ever see, who have never had one in their 24 years. No, they're not unattractive or overweight either, even though they're not beauty queens. And trust me, no girl will EVER be a beauty queen without doing most of the things that the 2nd group of girls does, even though some might make it through without turning into Ms. Bitch.

 

Is it not the same as what men face, then? Why do both genders persist on screwing themselves over? Yes, there WILL be girls who are 'hot' and also don't act all entitled and princessy. And I'm sure there are guys who are suave and 'bad-boyish' and rich who really are decent guys and great bfs underneath it all. But what's the point in looking for that needle in the haystack? What are the odds that you'll find such a person, he/she will want YOU, and you'll be compatible in all important aspects?

 

Hint: Men, if you are dismayed about the hot girl overlooking you because you're a 'nice guy', maybe you're just overlooking the 'girl-next-doors' who might appreciate you for who you are.

 

 

you forgot the in-between chicks: the nerds, the geeks, the psychos, the manic pixies

[VertexSquared]

Yep. Average women do this all the time. Nice average guys get back burnered while they try to get the "hot" guy.

 

Most men however will take an average girl showing interest over a hot girl not showing interest.

 

most average guys don't bother with the hot women anyways.

 

bottom line if an average girl is single & claims she can't find a nice guy it's because she doesn't think the guys interested in her are good enough.

 

I'd agree with this.

[Els]

Its only the reverse if you too believe that the chief, if not only source, of a nice guys woes is the choices they make. As you can see, I don't believe that. I see this whole premise as being little more than a band-aid solution that'll work with some, for sure, but is not the most effective solution over all. Not to mention that I think the OP is frustrated by not only the nice guys, but the girls she thinks they mostly go for. She paints a pretty disparaging picture of these girls over all, which has lead me to wonder as to how much all of this is designed to actually help the so-called nice guys and how much this is designed to help her and people like her.

 

.

 

I like how you completely ignored my rebuttal and just went on with your propaganda. And you think I'm the one trying to propagate things for my own benefit. Frankly, if you can't be bothered to read my responses, I can't be bothered to repeat them. Think or say whatever you want.

 

I DEFINITELY spend 30mins+ before going out, but when I'm going anywhere relatively casual- I throw on flats/babytee/no makeup.

 

And where do you get this stuff - slumber parties? I'm 20 and the only slumber party my friends have is when I crash at their pad because I'm trashed.

 

WHOOPS. Guilty.

 

I think I need to bold the part where I said 'very, very rough generalization and there are many exceptions' . And seriously, you've never arranged to sleep over at a friend's place with movies and snacks (or whatever your hobbies are) before?? Or you don't know anyone who has?! Err, okay. Based on your posts, though, I'd definitely say you're a rough picture of Girl 2. No harm in that, really.

Edited April 8, 2010 by Elswyth

[A O]

I like how you completely ignored my rebuttal and just went on with your propaganda. And you think I'm the one trying to propagate things for my own benefit. Frankly, if you can't be bothered to read my responses, I can't be bothered to repeat them. Think or say whatever you want.

Your rebuttal didn't specifically address me. It was however, more of the same so I didn't see the need to reply, even though your views further supported my claims. To the point: is the purpose of this thread to help nice guys or to help ease your frustration towards them? No guesses for what I think.

 

Also, FYI, I have nothing to benefit from this. I'm halfway across the globe from most of the people here, and what they do will not affect me. Just tired of hearing the same ol' 'Why don't hot women like nice guys like me!?' complaints, and wanted to shake them to their senses. Really, it's like watching someone persistently try to push open a 'Pull' door for an hour.

Case in point. Y'know, you may be a world away from it all, but as you can see, it still affects you alright.

 

 

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[phineas]

To me, having 'options' means having interest in multiple potentials for the pursuit of a relationship. It doesn't mean manipulating someone so they *think* one is interested in them more than what is reality. Having been 'back-burnered', I know exactly how that dynamic works. It's a mind-f*ck whose sole purpose is to keep the f*ckee's attention focused on the 'person with options'.

 

Nothing nice about that, IMO.

 

This is what I meant when I said Options.

I should of re-worded that.