mmk1 Posted April 4, 2010 Posted April 4, 2010 I'm a MM involved in an A for the better part of the last 5 years with a MW. I am considering getting a D without any assurance from my MM that she would D her H for me. This is based on long-standing issues with my W that I believe contributed to the A rather than anything to do with the MW. We have never really discussed getting Ds to be with each other, but we talk about what it would be like to be married. For those of you who are a MW in an A with a MM, if your MM got a D would that encourage you to get a D yourself, enoucourage you to stop the A, or make no difference? Just wanted a MW's opinion. (In answer to the inevitable posts, no I have no plans on telling my W about the A).
carhill Posted April 4, 2010 Posted April 4, 2010 IMO, the 'first' person who divorces/leaves their LTR becomes the vulnerable one. Two reasons: First, they are no longer married/LTR, in your case, the MM. They become the OP. They lose 'power' in the triangle. Two, losing marital/LTR status, for some AP's, lessens attraction. If, in that AP, there is a schism of want and attraction, the now, in your case, MW, may 'want' you, but loses attraction due to lessened demand, as you are no longer married. Another aspect is the BS doesn't 'want' you anymore and is taking/responding with legal steps to make that public and that reality impacts the AP. IME with MW's (there have been a few, some as love interests and some as friends), they want the OM firmly, and I mean firmly, on the hook before they'll even consider leaving their M's. Even then, it could take a long time, depending on children, finances, social status, etc. Each person is different. I like the conventional LS wisdom of staying in or leaving a marriage because of the marriage and notwithstanding any AP's which might be in the picture or at its perimeter. After MC, I see the health in that wisdom. Going through that process also can put the AP in a different light, which happened to me. Very enlightening. Looking forward to reading the LS MW's perspectives... Hope things work out for you
Author mmk1 Posted April 4, 2010 Author Posted April 4, 2010 So if your MW won't get a D, are you still going to get a D, or are you going to continue cheating on your wife? No, I want a divorce so I am not cheating on my W anymore. Or are you worried about getting a D, and then becoming the other man? That's my question. I guess that's what I become. And does becoming the OM, as Carhill writes, result in a lessening of attraction and the end of the A or could it encourage my MW to get a divorce and we can finally be together, which is the result I would like. Her child is younger than my kids so she is hesitant to get a D. Also, her H just inherited some money, which seems to be important to her, but doesn't keep her from being with me.
carhill Posted April 4, 2010 Posted April 4, 2010 Children and money; powerful reasons. Women may be emotional, but they are eminently practical, especially when mothers. She'll definitely want that inheritance co-mingled before going for a D. If the M is otherwise tolerable, and she knows she can have you on the side, expect the possibility of a move after the kids go off to college or go out in the world. Does her H know? Five years is a long time.
Author mmk1 Posted April 4, 2010 Author Posted April 4, 2010 Our families have been friends for a long time and we were at their wedding. It wouldn't surprise me if he knew but there is no indication he does.
Confused4Now Posted April 4, 2010 Posted April 4, 2010 IMO, the 'first' person who divorces/leaves their LTR becomes the vulnerable one. Two reasons: First, they are no longer married/LTR, in your case, the MM. They become the OP. They lose 'power' in the triangle. Two, losing marital/LTR status, for some AP's, lessens attraction. If, in that AP, there is a schism of want and attraction, the now, in your case, MW, may 'want' you, but loses attraction due to lessened demand, as you are no longer married. Another aspect is the BS doesn't 'want' you anymore and is taking/responding with legal steps to make that public and that reality impacts the AP. IME with MW's (there have been a few, some as love interests and some as friends), they want the OM firmly, and I mean firmly, on the hook before they'll even consider leaving their M's. Even then, it could take a long time, depending on children, finances, social status, etc. Each person is different. I like the conventional LS wisdom of staying in or leaving a marriage because of the marriage and notwithstanding any AP's which might be in the picture or at its perimeter. After MC, I see the health in that wisdom. Going through that process also can put the AP in a different light, which happened to me. Very enlightening. Looking forward to reading the LS MW's perspectives... Hope things work out for you Everything here is TRUE. I was a MM with my MW beginning of 2006... When I was at a point where I didn't think it was fair to my exWife. I started my divorce. This was beginning of '08. My MW and I had talked about a future together possible down the road. But I knew if I started this journey I could end up alone. My divorce was final in June 09 and my MW has not changed a thing to start what she said the beginning of our journey. So after several NC's I just realized I had to go live my life which I'm doing. Yes I have contact with her but the damage has been done with all the lying and excuses. The question is do you want to go through all that. I do owe her that she helped me get out of my situation but I do know that for many reasons she's still right where she wants to be. So think hard. I left cause I really wanted a divorce. I did it and I'm happy I did. So now I just have to find that some special person. Whatever you do don't settle.....
carhill Posted April 4, 2010 Posted April 4, 2010 Just an instinct but it probably won't end well. Hope I'm wrong
kis Posted April 4, 2010 Posted April 4, 2010 I'm a MM involved in an A for the better part of the last 5 years with a MW. I am considering getting a D without any assurance from my MM that she would D her H for me. This is based on long-standing issues with my W that I believe contributed to the A rather than anything to do with the MW. We have never really discussed getting Ds to be with each other, but we talk about what it would be like to be married. For those of you who are a MW in an A with a MM, if your MM got a D would that encourage you to get a D yourself, enoucourage you to stop the A, or make no difference? Just wanted a MW's opinion. (In answer to the inevitable posts, no I have no plans on telling my W about the A). You two are on equal ground right now. Both married and something to lose technically if the affiar were discovered. But I have always thought it was more dangerous for a married person to have an affiar with a non married person. One has everything to lose to other has everything to gain. It sounds like she does not intend to leave her husband. The situation may be too risky to her if you are free.
jerrytodd Posted April 4, 2010 Posted April 4, 2010 My MW went all the way to separation and in the one year it took me to formally separate ending up going backwards and hanging more with her H and then broke it off for me. So not only does there need to be complete certainty that there is a future you also probably need to be aligned as to the timing. Some people are impatient and cant wait. I guess what I am saying is that promises are not enough. There needs to be a downside for the MW/MM to NOT end the marriage.
Fallen Angel Posted April 4, 2010 Posted April 4, 2010 I had a long response typed out for this thread and my battery died on my laptop.. now I have to leave for work and don't have time to type it all again. So here is the short version... you are intimately involved with this woman, rather than asking us to try to read her mind, how about asking her?? If you can kiss the most intimate parts of her, you should be able to also have a meaningful conversation with her, or else there is no future anyway.... talk with her, then you will know what she is thinking, none of us have the answers you seek. Good luck.
Author mmk1 Posted April 4, 2010 Author Posted April 4, 2010 (edited) I'm not really asking anyone to read her mind but rather what anyone's experience is in a similar situation. The quandry is I love my MW and want to get a sense if a D would end our A, either because the thrill would be gone or the perceieved risk too great if I was single. It seems the best course is assume I will lose her in a D and just do what's best for me in getting a D. Edited April 4, 2010 by mmk1 Typo
OWoman Posted April 4, 2010 Posted April 4, 2010 IMO, the 'first' person who divorces/leaves their LTR becomes the vulnerable one. Two reasons: First, they are no longer married/LTR, in your case, the MM. They become the OP. They lose 'power' in the triangle. Two, losing marital/LTR status, for some AP's, lessens attraction. If, in that AP, there is a schism of want and attraction, the now, in your case, MW, may 'want' you, but loses attraction due to lessened demand, as you are no longer married. Another aspect is the BS doesn't 'want' you anymore and is taking/responding with legal steps to make that public and that reality impacts the AP. Losing power by being a S OP??? OTC - the MP is the one with everything to lose, the SP is the free agent, free to make their own choices and call their own shots! They're answerable to no one but themselves! On the "lessened attraction" bit - that could be an issue, depending on the terms of the agreement. If all the MW wants is a bit of fluff on the side, then having a SG moping around all clingy and wanting more is going to be a total passion killer. If OTOH she's been building dream homes in the air with the MM, then perhaps she also wants more. Hard to know, until it comes down to the crunch, though...
Spoiled Posted April 4, 2010 Posted April 4, 2010 I'm a MM involved in an A for the better part of the last 5 years with a MW. I am considering getting a D without any assurance from my MM that she would D her H for me. This is based on long-standing issues with my W that I believe contributed to the A rather than anything to do with the MW. We have never really discussed getting Ds to be with each other, but we talk about what it would be like to be married. For those of you who are a MW in an A with a MM, if your MM got a D would that encourage you to get a D yourself, enoucourage you to stop the A, or make no difference? Just wanted a MW's opinion. (In answer to the inevitable posts, no I have no plans on telling my W about the A). I am a MW who is involved with a MM for 1.5yrs now. And like you, have been friends with the couple for more than 12 years. Long story short, seven months into the A, there was a Dday but the A continued for a few more months. I ended the A for a few months then it resumed. MM did not "throw me under the bus" as my conversation with his W confirmed that to me. If he had decided to leave initially after Dday#1, I would have also left. We did discuss what our lives would be like together but never had intentions to leave. Not sure of your issues but his W is not 100% healthy(as I was her friend and know) and is totally dependent on his income, etc. I never expected him to leave. If I had left my H and was available, there is no way I would have continued the A if he remained home. We are in the same situation, therefore, neither can make demands or expect more than the other. Honestly not sure what I would do but we have discussed making those decisions together. It is what it is, I believe neither of us wants to break up our families unless we make the ultimate decision together to D. I was independent prior to meeting my H and have a great career, I can take care of myself and my children, so not worried about finances, etc. My greatest fear is my children being away from their father, who is an excellent father. I go back and forth often.
Spoiled Posted April 4, 2010 Posted April 4, 2010 I'm not really asking anyone to read her mind but rather what anyone's experience is in a similar situation. The quandry is I love my MW and want to get a sense if a D would end our A, either because the thrill would be gone or the perceieved risk too great if I was single. It seems the best course is assume I will lose her in a D and just do what's best for me in getting a D. If she does not plan to leave her H, the risk would be very great to continue the A if you were single. Surely you feel the same way in that you never worried about your MW getting angry and telling your W about the A. Again, you are in the same situation, married with children. You should speak with your MW about your concern. I do understand your situation. My MM and I do love each other. My counselor was even positive about our relationship together but had me keep in mind all of the many difficulties. The four children, weekend visits, holidays without our children, the child support, the incomes, the resentment of our children toward us, losing our "good" reputations, hurting our spouses(although we continue the A), the guilt, and much more. I have a few questions for you. If you decide to D, would you tell your MW? You stated being together would be your preference if you D, would you express that feeling to your MW? If you D and leave your children, would you later resent your MW? If my MM and I ever decided to be together, I believe he would be torn with guilt and would later resent me for not being with his children.
Author mmk1 Posted April 4, 2010 Author Posted April 4, 2010 Spoiled, those are insightful and difhicult questions. I have thought about getting a D and not telling my MW because I fear she would end it. Same with telling her about my preference to be together if I got a D. I may resent her for not getting a D if I did, that's possble. Bottm line is I think she would feel too much pressure from me getting a D to continue our A. Therefore, I would not tell her about a D. Which all leads me to do what we've been doing and what you are doing, even though it's far from ideal.
Spoiled Posted April 4, 2010 Posted April 4, 2010 Spoiled, those are insightful and difhicult questions. I have thought about getting a D and not telling my MW because I fear she would end it. Same with telling her about my preference to be together if I got a D. I may resent her for not getting a D if I did, that's possble. Bottm line is I think she would feel too much pressure from me getting a D to continue our A. Therefore, I would not tell her about a D. Which all leads me to do what we've been doing and what you are doing, even though it's far from ideal. Funny, my MM also stated he would probably not disclose to me if he decided to get a D?!?! Especially when you prefer to be with your MW. I definitely struggle emotionally with our situation. An A is not ideal and too many people can be hurt. We maintained NC for 4months and it was difficult. I realized there were certain things I would never receive within my M. Because of that, many would suggest I get D'd. However, there are so many good things about my M. For me, deciding to stay and be 100% committed to my H or leave is imperative and needs to be done before total destruction occurs.
Author mmk1 Posted April 4, 2010 Author Posted April 4, 2010 We are totally in the same boat, spoiled. We just ended 5 months of NC, except for business, because we are still in love with each other. No matter how difficult thngs get and how many breaks we take, we cannot stay apart. I don't know what to do but the possibility of disaster is ever present.
LucreziaBorgia Posted April 4, 2010 Posted April 4, 2010 She isn't likely to leave. If she stays, she gets to continue being a full time parent, gets to enjoy her upgraded quality of life and gets to continue seeing you when it is convenient for her to do so. If she leaves, she downgrades herself to a part time parent, she forgoes that increased quality of life, she will be inconvenienced by the 'back and forth' of trading off the kid with the ex, she will have to disrupt her kid's life, she will have to pack and move all of her stuff, and she will get to be with you full time. Which is easier, seeing you part time and keeping a full time life or seeing you full time and make everything else part time? Which situation does she stand to lose the most? That is the situation she will avoid.
Author mmk1 Posted April 5, 2010 Author Posted April 5, 2010 LB, the same could be said for me. I guess I'm willing to get a D where she is not. Do you see any reason not to simply ask her if she would leave her H for me or after 5 years should I already know the answer is no? Also, you are right that she sees me when it is convenient for her. Sometimes we can see each other for several days straight then she will cancel our plans to run errands, which really upsets me and I never do. Is this just because I care more?? She says it's not true but it's frustrating.
Got it Posted April 5, 2010 Posted April 5, 2010 I was a MW with a MM. I left my marriage a few weeks into the affair as the affair was the catalyst for a long time coming separation. When MM and first started talking we both talked about wanting to get out of our marriages, his had more obstacles involved. I left because that is what I needed to do for me. MM and spoke and he came up with a timeline on how long he needed to get out. I stayed with him through my separation and divorce because of our relationship and his timeline. He did leave shortly longer than his timeline due to a dday and complications with it. I think being the SOP puts you in a bit of a precarious situation as you feel the person is cakeater whereas prior you may not have really felt it. BUT you also have the ability to have your future your own and can date others if so desired. Both sides have their pros and cons I guess. Do what is right for you, independent of anyone else. Walk your journey and focus on you, she is just icing right now. For us, since we are pretty upfront and honest on everything, I could not have imagined NOT telling him about my plans.
Woman In Blue Posted April 5, 2010 Posted April 5, 2010 Also, her H just inherited some money, which seems to be important to her, but doesn't keep her from being with me. Golly, you've found quite the catch there. Maybe after she's done sucking hubby's inheritance fund dry, she might make herself legally available for you. Since inherited money isn't part of the equitable division of assets in divorces (if I remember correctly) she'll probably be leeching off him for a long time to come since she won't be able to steal half of it from him in the divorce process. Therefore, she'll have to continue mooching off him until the cash well runs dry. So, you may be the "OM" for quite a while to come. Why would you WANT to wait for someone like this? She lies, she cheats, she plays the happy wife so she benefit from her husband's inheritance, etc. etc. You might seriously want to re-think a happily-ever-after with this one.
LucreziaBorgia Posted April 5, 2010 Posted April 5, 2010 1. Do you see any reason not to simply ask her if she would leave her H for me or after 5 years should I already know the answer is no? 2. Sometimes we can see each other for several days straight then she will cancel our plans to run errands, which really upsets me 3. Is this just because I care more?? 1. In cases like this, you cannot assume anything and you have to absolutely crystal clear, as in spelling out the details explicitly so that there cannot be any wiggle room or any 'oh, I didn't know you wanted this/that'. She needs to know in no uncertain terms that you would like for her to divorce like you are doing so that the two of you can be together full time. The less wiggle room you give her, the less BS and excuses she will be able to give. If you have to, force her into a yes/no situation: no BS, no excuses - just a simple "are you going to divorce or not - your only options to answer are YES or NO." It is amazing how that one word answer will tell you more about what you need to know about a person and their intentions than a thousand words well meaning excuses, lies, blinds, deflections, and the sort. If you are afraid of the answer, then don't ask. Just be prepared to take what you can get from that point on. 2. Some days you are higher on her priority list than other days. Some days you are lower. 3. I don't know that it is because you care more, so much as it is that you keep her on a higher priority more consistently than she does for you.
her_halo_slipped Posted April 5, 2010 Posted April 5, 2010 I'm a MM involved in an A for the better part of the last 5 years with a MW. I am considering getting a D without any assurance from my MM that she would D her H for me. This is based on long-standing issues with my W that I believe contributed to the A rather than anything to do with the MW. We have never really discussed getting Ds to be with each other, but we talk about what it would be like to be married. For those of you who are a MW in an A with a MM, if your MM got a D would that encourage you to get a D yourself, enoucourage you to stop the A, or make no difference? Just wanted a MW's opinion. (In answer to the inevitable posts, no I have no plans on telling my W about the A). In answering your question I must tell you I am day 20 of NC but will answer it as if I was still in the throes on my A. It was never discussed that we would leave our M's or SO's because of our A. I don't have any significant issues in my M but he had some ongoing issues in his but had always vowed to stay for his children. For the most part it was an EA that spilled over to a PA. If he would have told me he was getting a D more than likely it would have meant a renegotiation of the terms of the A. That's all. Clarification that although he had left his M, it would not change the status quo of our A as I would never have left my M. The A for me was really just an extension of a friendship and attraction and I did not fall in love with him. This is/was not ideal and the A has ended. I guess if he had gotten a D it may have added extra pressure hence the re-assurance negotiations. Just my humble opinion.
Author mmk1 Posted April 8, 2010 Author Posted April 8, 2010 I did ask my MW about whether she would ever D her H for me and the answer was no, she could not because of her young daughter. I appreciated her honesty and know I am in a different position as I am 10 years older and my kids are older than her daughter. So, my thoughts are to take the A for what it's worth. I still have to decide about my D but do what's best for me as I know now where I stand with my MW.
2sunny Posted April 8, 2010 Posted April 8, 2010 So if your MW won't get a D, are you still going to get a D, or are you going to continue cheating on your wife? No, I want a divorce so I am not cheating on my W anymore. Or are you worried about getting a D, and then becoming the other man? That's my question. I guess that's what I become. And does becoming the OM, as Carhill writes, result in a lessening of attraction and the end of the A or could it encourage my MW to get a divorce and we can finally be together, which is the result I would like. Her child is younger than my kids so she is hesitant to get a D. Also, her H just inherited some money, which seems to be important to her, but doesn't keep her from being with me. I did ask my MW about whether she would ever D her H for me and the answer was no, she could not because of her young daughter. I appreciated her honesty and know I am in a different position as I am 10 years older and my kids are older than her daughter. So, my thoughts are to take the A for what it's worth. I still have to decide about my D but do what's best for me as I know now where I stand with my MW. why did you contradict yourself here? you should leave the M for YOU - not for your OW. i thought you said you decided and now you're getting reluctant just because she won't divorce too? D for the right reasons. more than that, allow your W to find a man that will love and honor her.
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