Holy poop do I need to not mess this up

[VertexSquared]

You now Vertex, I know it may sound like we're being rather harsh but there's just a real disconnect from what you're describing and your general perception of yourself.

 

You say that you're completely confident with pretty much every aspect of your life. You claim to have "a lot" of relationship experience," an "insane amount of sexual experience," and to be "very talented" and "very successful." You say there is no greater insecurity issue and your shyness is "just a side-quirk."

 

I'm just having trouble understanding how if you really believed you were such a catch you would be so very shy with people. I'm having trouble understanding how if you have so much relationship experience (and thus experience with women), you would honestly think the problem was a few extra digits on your birthdate rather than something about you. I have trouble understanding how, if your shyness is such a minor quirk yet you are such a mature and talented perfectionist, how you still havn't found a way to deal with your shyness. I'm honestly NOT trying to cut you down or hurt your feelings but something about your descriptions of yourself and your situation seem very out-of-touch.

 

But forget all that for a moment. If you REALLY were so into this girl and she was REALLY so all over you and you were both drunk, WHY THE HELL DIDN'T YOU KISS HER!?!?!? I'm shy and have tons of shy friends but I can't think of anyone who would be drunk with a girl he finds attractive who is currently hanging off him and not at least make out with her. You talk about having great physical chemistry, being comfortable with yourself sexually, and being in a very open and comfortable mood since you were drunk yet you somehow let this opportunity pass.

 

I think you may really want to ask yourself why you didn't make a move physically and try to delve deeper than "I'm just a little shy." I think that's far more likely to help you find happier relationships than blaming your troubles on a little personality quirk or screaming at the sky, "oh why couldn't I just be a few years older?!?!?"

 

 

 

 

I'm a little creeped out that you twice referred to your ideal woman is "obedient." It's another statement that comes across really antiquated and out of touch.

 

I basically echoed Johnny's adjectives without really thinking, and that's my own fault -- I wouldn't say "obedience" is the "fully correct" way to describe what I feel is vital. Perhaps "prioritization" would be a better phrasing. That is to say, I'd want my opinions and desires at least factored into her decision making processes (to this extent it may be considered "obedient" to do so). I would not say "obedience" is important to me in terms of "do what I say," as that is not what I want.

 

At any rate, I do value intelligence, affection, honesty, warmness, creativity, openness, sexuality, loyalty, etc.

 

Moving on, however:

 

Again I don't know what to tell you about the shyness thing. What I'm describing to you is accurate -- if you're in the NYC area, I'll even meet you in person and you'll likely see what I mean. I know you're only trying to help and I appreciate the constructive criticism, but what I'm telling you is true. I'm very much confident about my "on-paper" traits -- my education, my job, my physical features (to a degree. I'm only decent looking, but not OMGHOT or anything. Definitely not anywhere near ugly), my abilities/talents/skills, my wits, my sexual nature, etc.

 

If I had to put any one of those elements up to the test, I'd have no fear in doing so. The problem is the social interaction/getting-my-foot-in-the-door. I don't know how to act around people I don't know, and in those situations, I don't know how to "be myself" because it feels like my personality wipes itself away, leaving behind some awkward void I am left trying to fill unsuccessfully.

 

As for the age thing, I can see why it may be an issue. My friend may also be attracted to certain physical features of older men (e.g. mature features), just as I am attracted to Asian features. Like CRH said, it would be like if I met an amazing girl that just wasn't Asian. I would have a harder time finding her physically attractive to me. That *may* be part of the case here, but I also think that my shyness comes across as a lack of confidence, which in turn correlates to a lessened/diluted sex appeal.

 

I didn't kiss her because again, I am a bit risk-averse when it comes to such things. Once a girl and I kiss, all bets are off. Shyness melts away, and things escalate quickly once I know there's a mutual interest. To me, that sort of signal is indicative that there's nothing to lose by pushing the boundaries past kissing (easy for me to do), but the problem for me is just getting that launch point. Until then I am very shy/quiet and it makes it hard for me to get my foot in the door.

 

I am risk-averse in such situations because I am very bad at reading signals and don't like acting on incomplete or misinterpreted information. I don't want to take obviously friendly signals, misinterpret them as interest, and move in for a kiss only to get rebuffed (leading to negative residual effects and a horrible chain reaction). As this thread clearly indicates, I can't tell when a girl is interested and when a girl is "using" me for some other motive and when a girl is just being friendly. Apparently there is a ton of signal overlap in all three scenarios and I just can't tell them apart anymore.

 

The one time I actually made the first move was when a girl basically invited herself into my bed for about a week. I didn't make a move until I basically said, "Alright. She's been sleeping with me for a week and I haven't made a move. Am I seriously this retarded? This isn't a friendly signal." She almost thought I was gay because of how long it took me to act on that signal. I'm so bad at it -- I think it leads to a self-fulfilling cycle where I am risk-averse because I can't read signals, but then this leads to shyness that brings about a lack of positive interest, therefore giving me a biased subset of friendly signals that are flooding my otherwise inaccurate perception of what would be an otherwise balanced signal distribution.

 

I am typing way too much so I'm gonna just see if anyone has anything interesting to say about this.

Edited April 2, 2010 by VertexSquared

[pandagirl]

Vertex, I feel for you. Also, welcome to dating in NYC!

 

What you've described is status quo for this city. Drunken, miss connections, one-off makeout session, friends hooking up, disappearing acts, etc. -- this is what happens here. It's a testament to the nature of this city: it moves FAST and people don't stop.

 

What I advise? Don't get hung up about this girl; she's a dime a dozen. There are tons of intelligent, strong women in this city. You're just going to have to find one that is right for you. You can be her friends, but just don't put so much energy into it. I'm pretty sure she's cool with you having expressed an interest with her. There's no reason not to be her friend, if you can just accept things for how they are.

 

Alcohol is a HUGE social lubricant in this city. You guys were drunk, flirted and that was it. This girl thinks you're cool. She may not want to date you, but that's OK. Go out and meet more girls!

[VertexSquared]

The problem is that I can meet tons of girls, but I'm always going to make the same mistakes. I just wish I knew what I was doing incorrectly.

[pandagirl]

The problem is that I can meet tons of girls, but I'm always going to make the same mistakes. I just wish I knew what I was doing incorrectly.

 

You're not doing anything "wrong." It seems like you just haven't grown comfortable in your own skin yet.

[VertexSquared]

But it's been 23 years -- clearly something's wrong. I don't know how to be comfortable in my own skin, apparently. It just becomes more and more frustrating because almost everyone I talk to about it IRL says the same thing -- "I don't know, man, you've got everything there," and yet it seems to be impossible to actually form attraction even if I try to smile/act confident/stand up straight/etc. I'd say there's something wrong with me and I just don't know how to fix it.

[pandagirl]

Everything you've written in this thread is self-defeating, which I bet also translate to real life.

 

You're 23. That is still young, and you're going to grow a lot in the next few years. I moved to NYC when I was around that age, and I don't think I really "found" myself until years later. Life is about making mistakes and not being "perfect." I was a effing MESS when I moved to NYC. Got involved with the wrong guys, wasn't very confident, I was/am shy, was hard to meet people, I still hate the bar scene.

 

There are going to be a LOT of missteps. Don't beat yourself up over them. This is just ONE girl. And guess what? You're going to mess up a lot more. Eventually, once you get more of a foothold in NYC, you'll be surrounded by good friends -- people who make you feel good about yourself, people you feel comfortable around. You're successful career wise. You have so much going for you. Don't be so hard on yourself.

[VertexSquared]

Everything you've written in this thread is self-defeating, which I bet also translate to real life.

 

You're 23. That is still young, and you're going to grow a lot in the next few years. I moved to NYC when I was around that age, and I don't think I really "found" myself until years later. Life is about making mistakes and not being "perfect." I was a effing MESS when I moved to NYC. Got involved with the wrong guys, wasn't very confident, I was/am shy, was hard to meet people, I still hate the bar scene.

 

There are going to be a LOT of missteps. Don't beat yourself up over them. This is just ONE girl. And guess what? You're going to mess up a lot more. Eventually, once you get more of a foothold in NYC, you'll be surrounded by good friends -- people who make you feel good about yourself, people you feel comfortable around. You're successful career wise. You have so much going for you. Don't be so hard on yourself.

 

I feel like I'm going mad -- it's been almost two years since I've had any real relationship/physical contact with a woman, period. This shyness **** has got to go. I need evidence. What do you think is self-defeating in this thread? What would be a "better/confident" way to restate such things?

 

I truly do think it's a huge mental gap. Again, I am a huge perfectionist -- I hate making mistakes, but the problem is that that risk-aversion ends up being its own mistake.

 

I'm honestly tired of feeling sorry for myself and getting upset at constantly getting friendzoned. But I am also tired of generic "Just be confident" advice because it doesn't explain anything. That's like telling someone to get a better body by "exercising more." There's clearly a more rigorous, detailed explanation with logical underpinnings to it. I just don't know what that is when it comes to social stuff.

[pandagirl]

Wow, that's some real great advice You are not doing anything wrong. All you need to do is figure out is how to get more comfortable in your own skin!! I'm sure this is very helpful to the OP...

 

See, Vertex, this is why you never take a woman's advice on dating. You are liable to get either something totally counterproductive (i.e. "be a nice guy") or some vague meaningless bullsh*t like "you're not comfortable in your own skin".

 

That isn't "bullsh*t" advice. Where's does confidence ultimately come from? It comes from being comfortable with yourself. And there is not necessarily an "equation" to do this -- it's called life.

 

If Vertex was doing something obviously wrong, I would tell him. But, you know what? He's a cool, smart, successful guy. He's not necessarily doing anything wrong, except that he suffers from a lot of self-doubt; he wants to overcome shyness and become more confident. And, yes, I once had the same problem, too, which was not magically solved by doing x, y, and z.

 

And even if he did as some are advising on this thread to just "make a move," I bet even if it was successful, it wouldn't "solve" his problem. He wouldn't magically have a more successful love life. He would still be shy.

[VertexSquared]

That isn't "bullsh*t" advice. Where's does confidence ultimately come from? It comes from being comfortable with yourself. And there is not necessarily an "equation" to do this -- it's called life.

 

If Vertex was doing something obviously wrong, I would tell him. But, you know what? He's a cool, smart, successful guy. He's not necessarily doing anything wrong, except that he suffers from a lot of self-doubt; he wants to overcome shyness and become more confident. And, yes, I once had the same problem, too, which was not magically solved by doing x, y, and z.

 

And even if he did as some are advising on this thread to just "make a move," I bet even if it was successful, it wouldn't "solve" his problem. He wouldn't magically have a more successful love life. He would still be shy.

 

While I would agree with you, I do truly feel that there is an x, y, and z to focus on somewhere. Life isn't "rigorously mathematical," and such a "mathematical approach" may not be very "exciting" or "passionate" when it comes to social/emotional aspects of life, but that doesn't mean a social problem can't be broken down into logical subcomponents that adequately describe the root/core of the issue and how to go about resolving it in specific terms.

 

The problem is that I don't even know *why* I am shy, necessarily, or why I doubt or what I'm even doubting, and so I don't know what I need to focus on. I just don't know how to properly react to social cues of friendliness vs. interest, nor am I really all that good at flirting/making moves/creating attraction.

[pandagirl]

While I would agree with you, I do truly feel that there is an x, y, and z to focus on somewhere. Life isn't "rigorously mathematical," and such a "mathematical approach" may not be very "exciting" or "passionate" when it comes to social/emotional aspects of life, but that doesn't mean a social problem can't be broken down into logical subcomponents that adequately describe the root/core of the issue and how to go about resolving it in specific terms.

 

The problem is that I don't even know *why* I am shy, necessarily, or why I doubt or what I'm even doubting, and so I don't know what I need to focus on. I just don't know how to properly react to social cues of friendliness vs. interest, nor am I really all that good at flirting/making moves/creating attraction.

 

If you met me, I'd probably come off as a very good conversationalist, somewhat witty, and not at all shy. That is not the "real" me though. It's definitely a part of me, but I did have to "learn" these skills.

 

In order for me to become a journalist, I really had to overcome my shyness. At my first internship, I cried because I was afraid to call people on the phone. I used to panic before every interview I did. But, I made myself do it, and guess what? I got good. Really good. Took years though.

 

So, if you have in your head how you want to act, make yourself do it. It's not going to be easy, and it will take awhile to feel comfortable doing it, but force yourself to do things.

 

I don't know about you, but I was and still am afraid of failing, from career to love to life. It's a big inhibitor. Do you relate?

[VertexSquared]

If you met me, I'd probably come off as a very good conversationalist, somewhat witty, and not at all shy. That is not the "real" me though. It's definitely a part of me, but I did have to "learn" these skills.

 

In order for me to become a journalist, I really had to overcome my shyness. At my first internship, I cried because I was afraid to call people on the phone. I used to panic before every interview I did. But, I made myself do it, and guess what? I got good. Really good. Took years though.

 

So, if you have in your head how you want to act, make yourself do it. It's not going to be easy, and it will take awhile to feel comfortable doing it, but force yourself to do things.

 

I don't know about you, but I was and still am afraid of failing, from career to love to life. It's a big inhibitor. Do you relate?

 

Yes, I can relate, on all fronts. I hate using the phone, too, haha.

 

The problem is, again, I don't know *how* to improve or head towards a certain direction. All that happens when I "put myself out there" is fail. It's like telling a turtle that if he jumps off enough cliffs, he'll figure out how to fly eventually. I need to figure out how to make some wings, so to speak, even if they're not truly "mine."

[MalachiX]

Don't know what to tell you man. It really seems to me like you're afraid to actually explore what your problem is. I don't think you can say one moment that your shyness is just a quirk and the next that it's the big problem that has caused you to be single for two years. I think it's great to be confident about your career, your "talent," your past relationships, and other stuff but it sounds like you're really using this as more of a smoke screen to figure out where your real insecurities lie. I think you're at the place where you realize you have an issue but you're not really committed to the somewhat painful process of having to change your perception of yourself or the world. Really dealing with a personal issue takes work and it's often difficult and very frustrating. I've seen a lot of people with various issues who awknowladge their frustrations but then, when presented with possabilities of how to deal with them, find reasons to convince themselves that they're fine and actually quite confident.

 

Shyness on the level you describe comes from some kind of insecurity. It's not just something that pops up for no reason. If you really think it is then just go see a hypnotist and get him to convince you you're confident.

 

I think you're trying to protect yourself from what might be painful truths. Certainly your continued insistence that you're the "perfect" guy for this girl and the only problem is that you're a few years too young speaks to this. Hell, your claim that you'd find it hard to date someone who wasn't Asian indicates some kind of issue as well.

 

I feel like I'm going mad -- it's been almost two years since I've had any real relationship/physical contact with a woman, period. This shyness **** has got to go. I need evidence.

 

I've been there (well, I at least made out and fooled around with girls during a two-year relationship hiatus) and so have friends of mine. In our cases though, we knew there were issues that were more than just "gosh, we're shy for absolutly no reason."

 

If it's been two years, it most likely says something about your last relationship (assuming it's true that you're completely comfortable with your life other-wise).

 

Again, I am a huge perfectionist -- I hate making mistakes, but the problem is that that risk-aversion ends up being its own mistake.

 

Ok, risk-aversion is at least better than this generic shyness. You then need to ask yourself why you are risk-averse. Maybe you are risk-averse in more ways than just your romantic interactions. Maybe it's a bigger part of your life than you realize.

 

I'm honestly tired of feeling sorry for myself and getting upset at constantly getting friendzoned. But I am also tired of generic "Just be confident" advice because it doesn't explain anything. That's like telling someone to get a better body by "exercising more." There's clearly a more rigorous, detailed explanation with logical underpinnings to it. I just don't know what that is when it comes to social stuff.

 

If it's really bothering you so much then you might want to see a therapist since perhaps you'll be more willing to explore issues with someone who you're paying on an hourly rate (besides, it's not like you're spending that 100k a year on dates...).

[VertexSquared]

Alright well I'll try to break it down from what I feel in various situations:

 

I just feel awkward. I'm 6'2" (almost 6'3") and I feel like I tower over everyone all the time. If I'm at a club, I'm always finding that I have to lower myself to hear what the hell anyone's saying. I feel like I'm always sticking out.

 

If a girl and I are talking, I'm not sure how to hold myself. I don't know how to stand or when to smile or what to say to generate interest. I can ask her questions about herself all day and try to branch out a conversation (which usually works out okay), but that doesn't mean she's going to be interested just because we had a conversation. There's an entirely tacked-on level of flirtation that I am totally missing out on because I simply don't know how to flirt. This is why most girls I meet end up friendzoning me: I'm friendly. Even if I am interested, I just act friendly.

 

I find that sometimes, perhaps, my interests are too nerdy. I have a hard time connecting with most people when my interests lie in foreign languages, computers, finance, technology, art, academics, work, reading, writing, traveling, TV, etc. I have many passions but I feel very alone with them -- I have a hard time finding people who are equally passionate about things. I *live and breathe* what I do for fun and it's rare to have a truly stimulating conversation with anyone about it. Nobody watches the shows I watch (come on, I thought Lost and House were popular!? Everyone watches freaking Jersey Shore or whatever, it seems) and so I can't get into a heated discussion about latest theories. I can't exactly talk computers/tech/finance with most girls, as such things aren't sexy. The only plus is that girls are generally impressed that a white guy can speak Mandarin/Japanese/Korean with conversational fluency. Art is a lot of fun, but it's often hard to talk about unless the person you're talking with is an artist by trade or frequents museums or something. As a result, I have a hard time talking about what I do for fun, for instance. I typically get along a LOT better with more intelligent women who usually have a larger shared portion of passions and interests.

 

I feel like my word choice is poor. Even in that very last sentence, I changed my phrasing from "suboptimal" to "inadequate" to "poor." Sometimes I'll be speaking to someone and they get this glazed-over look because I accidentally belt out some overly-verbose sentence with huge words without realizing it. I'm not trying to be arrogant, but it's just the way I talk sometimes.

 

Also, talking about my family life is often difficult. I grew up in a very, very abusive household. The only way I made it to where I am today is by doing the opposite of what my family members did -- they were basically "anti-rolemodels." But there was a lot of emotional/physical abuse, general neglect, arbitrary punishment, and death. They never cared for me, cared for my education, guided me in any way, etc. I absolutely hate talking about my family and so I feel like I either need to avoid the topic entirely or make up a family.

 

In general I think my shyness is the result of simply not having those "macros" to fall back on in various situations. We all have our bags of "automatic tricks" and reactions to various cues that we've developed over the years as we've determined what works and what doesn't. The problem is that I haven't really fleshed mine out yet, perhaps.

 

In person, I don't necessarily come across as a weird guy -- just friendly. Only when drunk do I become the uninhibited social butterfly that I want to become, so I know it's possible for me. Of course, when I am drunk about 80% of my vocabulary is gone and I start discussing stupid **** with other drunk people, and it's a lot of fun -- but when I am sober, my mind starts spinning on gears attached to emptiness forced into overdrive, and I basically exhaust myself mentally and wind up panicking.

 

I feel like if I just had the right clothes, the right hairstyle, the right level of relaxation, and an adequate understanding of how to read certain social cues and how to properly react/flirt, I'd be on my way. But in the meantime I feel like I am very much unsure of myself because I know that my current status is not up to my standards and I understand that I don't know the best way to react to certain common situations.

Edited April 2, 2010 by VertexSquared

[phineas]

I had a girl one time tell me if we could be friends. Now she knew I didn't want to be just friends but I said, sure! ( but I told her I would be dating other women as I was wanting a relationship, if not with her than with another women ). Well, 2 days later she called me and asked if I was serious about dating other women and I told her yes, i was. She said she didn't want me dating other women as she would be jealous so we went back to dating.

 

My point is if I would have accepted the friendship she offered because I was afraid of losing her company I would have wound up as a friend but because I told her friendship was not enough she made the decision to date. Women will test you to see if you are serious about them or if you are willing to just be a friend.

 

It's messed up but the same exact thing happened to me back in college. We started hanging out, getting to know each other & she said she just wanted to be friends.

 

I got tired of banging my head against that wall & just said ok.

Then went out with someone else.

wasn't even a real date.

 

But she somehow heard & came a running.

She later cheated on me, but that's besides the point. LOL!

[bolase]

While I would agree with you, I do truly feel that there is an x, y, and z to focus on somewhere. Life isn't "rigorously mathematical," and such a "mathematical approach" may not be very "exciting" or "passionate" when it comes to social/emotional aspects of life, but that doesn't mean a social problem can't be broken down into logical subcomponents that adequately describe the root/core of the issue and how to go about resolving it in specific terms.

 

The problem is that I don't even know *why* I am shy, necessarily, or why I doubt or what I'm even doubting, and so I don't know what I need to focus on. I just don't know how to properly react to social cues of friendliness vs. interest, nor am I really all that good at flirting/making moves/creating attraction.

 

youre thinking too hard about this. get off the message boards and back into the world of mistakes and learning and growing and you'll lose your shyness. you WILL. share your experiences with girls with your mates and make sure they know how much you want to meet new ones. I'm sure theyll hook you up or introduce you. From your words and your typing, it sounds to me like you are a perfectionist and a slightly judgmental character. Try to work out if that is you and remember everyone makes mistakes.

 

You have everything going for you, now focus on your GOALS not the obstacles, okay?

 

From a once shy 25 year old lady, who like you has everything going for her and was only shy (in my case) because of a vague insecurity in the direction of relationship experience/success until I was 20, though I have eventually come to see myself as quite a gorgeous person, in and out most of the time But I don't care about others' opinions of me, I still make mistakes and dont treat everyone perfectly. Completely aside from your shyness, you aren't perfect...even with all those attributes you listed..who cares... accept that and the world becomes a better place for you instantaneously.

 

Good luck!

[VertexSquared]

youre thinking too hard about this. get off the message boards and back into the world of mistakes and learning and growing and you'll lose your shyness. you WILL. share your experiences with girls with your mates and make sure they know how much you want to meet new ones. I'm sure theyll hook you up or introduce you. From your words and your typing, it sounds to me like you are a perfectionist and a slightly judgmental character. Try to work out if that is you and remember everyone makes mistakes.

 

You have everything going for you, now focus on your GOALS not the obstacles, okay?

 

From a once shy 25 year old lady, who like you has everything going for her and was only shy (in my case) because of a vague insecurity in the direction of relationship experience/success until I was 20, though I have eventually come to see myself as quite a gorgeous person, in and out most of the time But I don't care about others' opinions of me, I still make mistakes and dont treat everyone perfectly. Completely aside from your shyness, you aren't perfect...even with all those attributes you listed..who cares... accept that and the world becomes a better place for you instantaneously.

 

Good luck!

 

I appreciate the good intentions but again this type of advice doesn't apply to me -- I can go make mistakes countless times, but it doesn't mean I'm actually capable of figuring out the *right* way of doing things as a result of failure. I've got 23 years of social awkwardness that clearly isn't going away.

 

My friends could introduce me to hundreds of girls, and I'd probably strike out with most of them because of my tendencies. I'm not trying to say "I'm perfect," but just that I have a lot going for me -- unfortunately those things aren't enough to offset the factors that cause the shyness. Despite accepting my strengths and flaws, it's not like it's going to magically make me social.

 

I'm only judgmental when it comes to what I want in a woman -- I don't look at anyone negatively on an inherent-basis because they possess or lack some given trait (of course, this is not without exceptions: Infidelity, dishonesty, cruelty, etc). I am fairly picky with what I want in a woman, but I would not say this is "judgmental." I don't think wanting an intelligent, affectionate woman is a shallow/judgmental thing. The only "quirky" preference of mine would be the Asian thing, but I think this is only because I find the physical features disproportionately attractive (and I empirically find that such women *typically* fit what I'm looking for in terms of personality/intelligence/etc. Call it racist -- I call it statistical correlation and higher chance of congruency from expected value).

 

At any rate, simply focusing on goals and keeping my eyes on the prize isn't optimal for me, I feel. There are clearly underlying issues and irrational learned tendencies of mine that I need to shake, but I'm not sure where they are/how to properly pinpoint them/how to circumvent those issues and re-acquire better traits to replace them.

[troggleputty]

My friends could introduce me to hundreds of girls, and I'd probably strike out with most of them because of my tendencies.

 

This statement indicates to me you could probably benefit from cognitive behavioral therapy. Your mental construct of reality is all wrong. Please believe me on this.

 

Yes, you would strike out with most girls out of a given subgroup. However that's not because of your "tendencies." It's because 99% of ALL MEN would "strike out" with "most" girls in any given subgroup.

 

It has nothing to do with "you."

 

This is what some of the others have been saying about your "self defeating" attitude, "shooting yourself in the foot." You are rendering self-fulfilling prophecies.

 

 

I'm not trying to say "I'm perfect," but just that I have a lot going for me -- unfortunately those things aren't enough to offset the factors that cause the shyness. Despite accepting my strengths and flaws, it's not like it's going to magically make me social.

 

It sounds like you might have some form of a social phobia, i.e. something like agorophobia but to a much lesser extent.

 

Cognitive behavioral therapy is very effective at treating this type of phobia.

 

Or, to save $$$$ you can try self-treating. And, you do this by constant exposure to the negative stimulus to "desensitize" yourself.

 

If you want to get over your fear of flying, take a lot of airplane rides.

 

You are being too goal oriented. You are obsessing over outcomes, rather than being solely concerned with your behaviors, without regard for the outcome.

 

Baseball players get into slumps when they worry too much about hitting home runs and not enough about simply swinging the bat cleanly.

 

You MUST stop worrying and obsessing over "success" or "failure," with "success" being defined as "not striking out," and "failure" defined as "striking out."

 

Going forward, you MUST define "success" as "striking out swinging as hard as you can." "Failure" must be defined not as hitting a home run, but rather, striking out on a called third strike, i.e. not even taking the swing.

 

What happens after you take the swing is almost beside the point. That will take care of itself.

 

That means you MUST be MUCH MORE AGGRESSIVE in any situation with any woman whom you are interested in.

 

The next time you are in a situation where a woman shows even the remotest interest, keep pushing. Flirting, physical contact, and absolutely positively going in for a kiss without warning and at the first opportunity. And do this EVERY SINGLE TIME without fear of failure, striking out, losing a friendship, etc. YOU ARE NOT BEING PERCEIVED AS AN OGRE. You are being perceived as "safe" and a "nice guy." Again you have a distorted cognitive landscape so you simply can't perceive this.

 

Cliff notes version: If you aren't getting slapped in the face, you aren't trying hard enough.

[boogieboy]

Vertex sounds to me like you need to read some articles on how to approach women on the street. These articles tell you how to read body language and cues. You will then know what to do, all you have to do is practice it at that point. Then you will erase your shyness.

[VertexSquared]

 

You are being too goal oriented. You are obsessing over outcomes, rather than being solely concerned with your behaviors, without regard for the outcome.

 

Baseball players get into slumps when they worry too much about hitting home runs and not enough about simply swinging the bat cleanly.

 

You MUST stop worrying and obsessing over "success" or "failure," with "success" being defined as "not striking out," and "failure" defined as "striking out."

 

Going forward, you MUST define "success" as "striking out swinging as hard as you can." "Failure" must be defined not as hitting a home run, but rather, striking out on a called third strike, i.e. not even taking the swing.

 

What happens after you take the swing is almost beside the point. That will take care of itself.

 

That means you MUST be MUCH MORE AGGRESSIVE in any situation with any woman whom you are interested in.

 

The next time you are in a situation where a woman shows even the remotest interest, keep pushing. Flirting, physical contact, and absolutely positively going in for a kiss without warning and at the first opportunity. And do this EVERY SINGLE TIME without fear of failure, striking out, losing a friendship, etc. YOU ARE NOT BEING PERCEIVED AS AN OGRE. You are being perceived as "safe" and a "nice guy." Again you have a distorted cognitive landscape so you simply can't perceive this.

 

Cliff notes version: If you aren't getting slapped in the face, you aren't trying hard enough.

 

These parts in particular I think are very much applicable -- they make a lot of sense to me. Whenever I meet a group of people I am immediately worrying about how I am going to handle the conversation correctly and leave it "successfully," which starts the gears in my head causing the worry.

 

I think "YOU ARE NOT BEING PERCEIVED AS AN OGRE" is also very applicable to my mindset's issue here. I'm always assuming that people are looking at me as annoying/unattractive/shy until shown otherwise. There are times when I feel like I am bothering a friend and yet they'll still reach out to contact me/invite me somewhere, leaving me completely baffled. Again though I think this is because I wildly misinterpret certain cues.

 

I try to liken this entire thing to a test. If I were to show up to a college exam without knowing a thing about the material, I'd strike out. Simply taking the test over and over again isn't going to help me figure out what I need to do. I am not confident because I know that I can't enter a social situation and have all the answers. In any other facet of life, I can problem-solve my way to an optimal solution because I have a strong understanding of the inherent landscape of the material. In the case of social situations, I feel like I am winging it all the time, and it makes me feel very unprepared. It feels like I'm constantly showing up to a test without any back knowledge, and it shows in my confidence. I pass the test if a girl contacts me/touches me in an obviously romantic way/says something to directly indicate interest. I fail if they show signs of friendzoning.

 

Whenever I take a risk, I do so only if I know how to handle the downsides if they occur. Socially, I feel like I am taking risks with a lot of downside probability and utility loss. If stuff starts to go "correctly," I freak out because I then start worrying about messing up. For instance, when I was with that girl, I *know* that in an alternate reality, given that I made different decisions that night, I probably could have had sex with her and gotten her interested in me as a boyfriend. It's that "potential" that irks me. I *know* that there is a possible set of correct actions/words that will yield the results that I want, and it frustrates me to no end that I don't know what will get me there.

[Els]

Uh, I really don't think 'shyness' was the OP's problem in this case at all. He clearly stated that flirting with her just felt so natural - so effectively, towards HER, he wasn't shy. It just sucks that he isn't her type. She'd already said she prefers older men. Not a year younger, not the same age, older. And he'd already known that before she blew him off, so it wasn't like an excuse she invented on the spot. It's like a guy saying he doesn't want to date overweight women or Asian women or anything of the sort. You can't change someone's preferences, and you should never change yourself to suit them, even if you can - and in this case, you can't.

 

OP, it isn't your fault. You just don't fit her age preferences. Try another one who isn't so fixated about age!

Edited April 2, 2010 by Elswyth

[VertexSquared]

Uh, I really don't think 'shyness' was the OP's problem in this case at all. He clearly stated that flirting with her just felt so natural - so effectively, towards HER, he wasn't shy. It just sucks that he isn't her type. She'd already said she prefers older men. Not a year younger, not the same age, older. And he'd already known that before she blew him off, so it wasn't like an excuse she invented on the spot. It's like a guy saying he doesn't want to date overweight women or Asian women or anything of the sort. You can't change someone's preferences, and you should never change yourself to suit them, even if you can - and in this case, you can't.

 

OP, it isn't your fault. You just don't fit her age preferences. Try another one who isn't so fixated about age!

 

This is what was so confusing to me that night. The chemistry was very strong and there were a lot of fireworks compared to our comparably "tamer/friendlier" past interactions -- we also fit each other's criteria even in terms of the tiniest, pickiest details (i.e. my "on-paper" traits) with the exception of that age threshold. She was frequently complimenting me on how much more outgoing/vocal I was and that I should be that way more often.

 

I guess I need to just accept that her "age" preference is really no different from my Asian one?

[threebyfate]

I just feel awkward. I'm 6'2" (almost 6'3") and I feel like I tower over everyone all the time. If I'm at a club, I'm always finding that I have to lower myself to hear what the hell anyone's saying. I feel like I'm always sticking out.

But Vertex, this is an asset, not a liability. You should be looking at "sticking out" as something good, since the more you stand out, the more women will notice you and from the perspective of height, it's a real bonus!

If a girl and I are talking, I'm not sure how to hold myself. I don't know how to stand or when to smile or what to say to generate interest.

The less you worry about this, the more your body language will transmit an ease of movement.

I can ask her questions about herself all day and try to branch out a conversation (which usually works out okay), but that doesn't mean she's going to be interested just because we had a conversation. There's an entirely tacked-on level of flirtation that I am totally missing out on because I simply don't know how to flirt.

Most women are interested in hearing about you too. This is part of getting to know people. Don't be afraid to talk about yourself and your own interests.

This is why most girls I meet end up friendzoning me: I'm friendly. Even if I am interested, I just act friendly.

Flirting is less about what you say and more about how you say it. This includes body language showing interest, where your body is turned towards hers, as well as some intermittent lingering, admiring eye contact. Constant lingering eye contact is too much. No eye contact is terrible.

 

Next time you go to a bar or pub, spend some time watching the guys and girls at the bar. See if you can't tell who's interested in whom and how the girls are reacting to how the men are talking to them.

I find that sometimes, perhaps, my interests are too nerdy. I have a hard time connecting with most people when my interests lie in foreign languages, computers, finance, technology, art, academics, work, reading, writing, traveling, TV, etc. I have many passions but I feel very alone with them -- I have a hard time finding people who are equally passionate about things. I *live and breathe* what I do for fun and it's rare to have a truly stimulating conversation with anyone about it.

The things you're interested, there's a percentage of women who are also interested in many of these subjects. But if you're looking for a partner who's interested in everything you're interested in, this isn't probable, just like it's not probable that you'd be interested in everything someone else is interested in, gender aside.

Nobody watches the shows I watch (come on, I thought Lost and House were popular!? Everyone watches freaking Jersey Shore or whatever, it seems) and so I can't get into a heated discussion about latest theories.

When you first meet someone, it's less likely you're going to get into any kind of heated discussion with anyone. Most often, people don't know each other and are tentatively trying to find out things about them.

I can't exactly talk computers/tech/finance with most girls, as such things aren't sexy.

Who says? A man who knows what he's talking about, is sexy. On the otherhand, if you're targetting girls who are intensely girly, more interested in the latest cosmetic or fashion, it's very unlikely you're going to find your interests being similar.

The only plus is that girls are generally impressed that a white guy can speak Mandarin/Japanese/Korean with conversational fluency. Art is a lot of fun, but it's often hard to talk about unless the person you're talking with is an artist by trade or frequents museums or something. As a result, I have a hard time talking about what I do for fun, for instance. I typically get along a LOT better with more intelligent women who usually have a larger shared portion of passions and interests.

Okay, then this is your target audience.

I feel like my word choice is poor. Even in that very last sentence, I changed my phrasing from "suboptimal" to "inadequate" to "poor." Sometimes I'll be speaking to someone and they get this glazed-over look because I accidentally belt out some overly-verbose sentence with huge words without realizing it. I'm not trying to be arrogant, but it's just the way I talk sometimes.

Good gawd! Don't be so worried about the words you use. Whatever comes naturally, is okay. If someone doesn't like your vocab, this speaks more about their own insecurities and isn't your problem.

Also, talking about my family life is often difficult. I grew up in a very, very abusive household. The only way I made it to where I am today is by doing the opposite of what my family members did -- they were basically "anti-rolemodels." But there was a lot of emotional/physical abuse, general neglect, arbitrary punishment, and death. They never cared for me, cared for my education, guided me in any way, etc. I absolutely hate talking about my family and so I feel like I either need to avoid the topic entirely or make up a family.

When you first meet and greet someone, talking about family shouldn't really be part of the equation, unless specifically asked. If someone asks at the beginning, just skate over this aspect until you get to know what kind of person they are. But plse don't make up a family. As well, consider some therapy for this. In the old days and even today, there are individuals who perceive therapy as solely for people with serious mental health issues. But this is inaccurate. You might be shocked to find out how many people get therapy, if only as a place to vent.

In general I think my shyness is the result of simply not having those "macros" to fall back on in various situations. We all have our bags of "automatic tricks" and reactions to various cues that we've developed over the years as we've determined what works and what doesn't. The problem is that I haven't really fleshed mine out yet, perhaps.

Btw, abusive families rely on secrets. What this does is to put the burden of secrecy onto the abused individuals, so for example yourself, an abused child, keeps that secret to protect the abuser(s), since you're in reliance of them for life support. The sooner it's no longer a secret, the sooner that burden is lifted. This is the aspect that's great about therapy. You can divulge within a safe and confidential environment.

In person, I don't necessarily come across as a weird guy -- just friendly. Only when drunk do I become the uninhibited social butterfly that I want to become, so I know it's possible for me. Of course, when I am drunk about 80% of my vocabulary is gone and I start discussing stupid **** with other drunk people, and it's a lot of fun -- but when I am sober, my mind starts spinning on gears attached to emptiness forced into overdrive, and I basically exhaust myself mentally and wind up panicking.

 

I feel like if I just had the right clothes, the right hairstyle, the right level of relaxation, and an adequate understanding of how to read certain social cues and how to properly react/flirt, I'd be on my way. But in the meantime I feel like I am very much unsure of myself because I know that my current status is not up to my standards and I understand that I don't know the best way to react to certain common situations.

When you're drunk, your inhibitions about keeping your secrets, stop you from being relaxed and acting naturally. It really is okay to not have everyone like you. It really is.

[Els]

This is what was so confusing to me that night. The chemistry was very strong and there were a lot of fireworks compared to our comparably "tamer/friendlier" past interactions -- we also fit each other's criteria even in terms of the tiniest, pickiest details (i.e. my "on-paper" traits) with the exception of that age threshold. She was frequently complimenting me on how much more outgoing/vocal I was and that I should be that way more often.

 

I guess I need to just accept that her "age" preference is really no different from my Asian one?

 

Yes, unfortunately. Although hopefully your Asian preference isn't as strong as her age one, because a 24-y-o girl has plenty of options in the field of older men, whereas if you live in an American community I doubt Asian girls would be the majority there. In other words, I do hope that you'll consider girls of other races for your own sake, because her preference isn't going to narrow her options nearly as much as yours will.

[VertexSquared]

I live in NYC -- there seems to be no shortage here.

[jerbear]

I live in NYC -- there seems to be no shortage here.

 

Try Boston, the mentalities of Asian women there are different that even those in Philadelphia and NYC.