SecretSquirrel Posted March 31, 2010 Posted March 31, 2010 I could write a ridiculously long post about my personal situation, but I have a feeling that most people wouldn't read it. Feel free to ask questions if you're interested or need more info, and who knows, maybe I'll end up posting about this anyways. For now I'm going to leave it at this: When a guy talks about how he wants to get married (and move in together, which apparently has to come before an engagement for some reason) in the not-so-distant future, how do you know he's not blowing smoke up your ass?
JohnnyBlaze Posted March 31, 2010 Posted March 31, 2010 There are a few reasons a guy will talk marriage. He is dead serious. He wants to marry you.You have been talking about marriage incessantly of late, and he figures that if he doesn't at least mention it, you're going to walk.Your relationship is on the rocks, and he figures that if he doesn't mention it, you're going to walk.A lot of friends have gotten married lately, and he figures that if he doesn't mention it, you're going to walk. See a trend here? It comes down to two things: a. He wants to marry you or b. Something happened that makes him think he's going to lose you. As to why guys want to move in first, this may sound cold, but it's a "taste and try before you buy" approach. Dating someone is one thing; living with them is another. This lets both sides find out what it'll be like to live together before making such a major commitment. What makes you think he's blowing smoke?
Author SecretSquirrel Posted April 1, 2010 Author Posted April 1, 2010 What makes you think he's blowing smoke? Hey JohnnyBlaze. I'm going to try to respond to your post without rambling on and on forever, but most likely I won't be able to stop myself. Being concise isn't a strong point. From the first part of your post I would have to say that we are either at a. (thought from my OP you can probably tell I'm doubting that) or b. option #4: his friends are getting married. Your post made me go back and think about this. Several months ago a lot of his friends were getting married (I think in a span of 2 months we went to 5 weddings, just as an example), or having babies (in the last 6 months or so 3 of his friends have had babies), and during that time he was talking a lot about getting married. Since then, since things have settled down a bit, he hasn't really mentioned marriage. He has been talking about having me move in with him though. I tried having a serious discussion with him about this, because I know that we feel differently about living together before marriage (he's very casual about it, IMO, whereas I don't want to do it unless there is an understanding that a ring/proposal is coming down the line not long after). He didn't seem to take it too seriously. He did mention that he wants to get a puppy together, if/when we move in together. I can't tell if this is something he suggested because he's interested in a serious committment, or because he thinks it will entice me to move in without the promise of a proposal within a few months of the moving in thing. He also mentioned something about how he if/when a proposal is coming he expects us to look at rings together (which we have never even talked about before, let alone done, so if he honestly feels that way that right there tips me off that he's not seriously thinking marriage right now). I could probably go on, but that's good for now most likely...
TudorII Posted April 2, 2010 Posted April 2, 2010 I'm not sure how old your guy is but maybe he has reached an age where is thinking more long term than short term. I know for mysefl there came a point where I felt it was time to grow up and to treat my relationship in manner that it deserved. For me I knew I loved my then girlfriend and we were living together and for all practical puposes living as a married couple but with out it being official. I all the sudden wanted it to be official, I wanted to introduce her as my wife and let her know that the relationship was more than just casual. There is no greater commitment or gift you can give to your partner than forsaking all others and saying just you. Some can do this with out marriage and that is fine, others need to give that gift by getting married. Be blunt...if there was ever a time now is it. Ask him why now, what is making him talk in terms of marriage and rings all the sudden?
Author SecretSquirrel Posted April 2, 2010 Author Posted April 2, 2010 I'm not sure how old your guy is but maybe he has reached an age where is thinking more long term than short term. I know for mysefl there came a point where I felt it was time to grow up and to treat my relationship in manner that it deserved. For me I knew I loved my then girlfriend and we were living together and for all practical puposes living as a married couple but with out it being official. I all the sudden wanted it to be official, I wanted to introduce her as my wife and let her know that the relationship was more than just casual. There is no greater commitment or gift you can give to your partner than forsaking all others and saying just you. Some can do this with out marriage and that is fine, others need to give that gift by getting married. Be blunt...if there was ever a time now is it. Ask him why now, what is making him talk in terms of marriage and rings all the sudden? It's hard to explain. I think that in many ways he is as you described yourself. But he's not taking any steps in that direction, which I'll get to in a minute. Since he says that he wants to get married, and he has told me why he wants to, I don't think it's possible to have a blunt and honest conversation about this. Maybe he's serious about it. Maybe on some level he isn't sure. Maybe he says he wants to marry me, but only says it because he's afraid of losing me or something like that. Have you checked out the Getting Married forum here? I've read some of those posts, and some in the Marriage and Life Partners forum, and there are so many "We've been dating for X no. of years and we're still not married" threads. I think that often guys say they want to get married, but for one reason or another, they don't. Going back to the part about him not taking steps in that direction. He brought marriage up again last night, and again made a comment about how we would have to go look at rings together so he would know what to pick out. However, we still haven't looked at rings. I straight up asked him if he had looked at rings and he said no. He then mentioned a couple of things he thought I had said recently (in the last couple of days) about what kind of ring I want - but he was completely wrong. If he were serious about this it makes sense to me that he would've been paying attention to what I want in a ring. Sorry for the rambling.
carhill Posted April 2, 2010 Posted April 2, 2010 OK.... now some questions for you... Do you want to get married? If so, what's *your* timeline? Why? Do you want to live together before being married? Why? If you assert yourself about what *you* want, can you accept his response?
TudorII Posted April 2, 2010 Posted April 2, 2010 Don't confuse his lack of paying attention as an indication of the level of his desire to get married. Some people just don't pay as much attention as others but that does not speak to where their heart is. And keep in mind sometimes misdirection is big part of gearing up to the proposal. While it is something you need to talk about because it is big commitment, guys still have the desire for there to be some surprise. I had my wife look at rings with me for to get an idea of what she wanted, she has to wear that thing for the rest of her life and I at least wanted it to be her taste and nto mine. In the end I designed the ring myself and had it made based on the things she pointed out but it was not a specific ring she had pointed out. Then I continually misdirected her so that when I did propose she did not see it coming and it got to be a surprise. Maybe that is his way too but at the very least consider that misdirection may be part of it if he is serious about proposing.
boogieboy Posted April 2, 2010 Posted April 2, 2010 He's only saying he wants to get married because youre passively forcing him. If you want to see how serious he is about it, then dont mention it ever. he wont WANT to until he has no pressure from you. And any mention of marriage or living together is pressure. Your ideas on living together is also going to push him away. If you wont move in with him unless a ring is months away and definite, then he wont move in with you until he's sure he wants to get married. Right now, he doesnt want to marry you. You ruined the romance for him.
carhill Posted April 2, 2010 Posted April 2, 2010 OP, have you and your BF talked about marriage, family and children *in general*? During those conversations, have you clearly stated what your preferences for a committed relationship/marriage are? Men like clarity. This is not 'pushing' him. It's communicating what you want for yourself in life. He can choose to be a part of that or not, as you can, based on what *he* wants. TBH, what put me off was this: Since he says that he wants to get married, and he has told me why he wants to, I don't think it's possible to have a blunt and honest conversation about this. Maybe he's serious about it. Maybe on some level he isn't sure. Maybe he says he wants to marry me, but only says it because he's afraid of losing me or something like that. What are you saying here? Did he actually make any of those 'maybe' statements, or are you projecting? Why, if he broached the subject, isn't it possible to have a 'blunt and honest' conversation about it? BTW, how long have you been together? Here's my version of clarity: 'I enjoyed being married. I like the clear and expressed commitment of love. God willing, I hope I get married again. I love being with you. I can see myself committing to you in marriage. How do you feel about that?' What do you hear? Are you getting that kind of clarity from your BF? Is he getting it from you?
ADF Posted April 2, 2010 Posted April 2, 2010 If he buys a ring, if you set a date--basically if he moves towards the wedding in a concrete, obvious way, odds are better than not he's serious. If he leaves everything open-ended, odds are he may just be telling you what you want to hear.
Author SecretSquirrel Posted April 2, 2010 Author Posted April 2, 2010 (edited) Why do men assume that women are the ones who are always bringing up marriage and nagging their men about it?? My BF is the one who brings it up. Because he is always bringing it up, and talking about it, but not really asking me about the things that I think are important when deciding to take that step, I took matters in my own hands and tried to have a serious discussion with him about those things. One of those topics included that I will not live with someone if a ring is not coming down the line in under a year. I personally see living together as a trap men lay for women to get them to think he's super committed and ready to marry her, when he actually has no intention of doing so. And men somehow got women to buy into that. I know this is an unpopular view, but that is my opinion on it. Yes, I also know that this is a generalization and not all guys/situations are like this. My BF likes that I am like this, because as a result of my somewhat conservative views I haven't slept with very many men, and I have never lived with anyone - he really, really likes that...except when it also applies to him (the living together thing). Anyways, when I tried to talk about this, I wanted to have a discussion; my BF mostly listened, and didn't have much to contribute on his end of the discussion. He did play "what if" and ask a couple questions. I think this left me feeling that we didn't have an understanding or resolution, and that it really was just a "what if" game/pipe dream. I have been surprised by him before in this regard, however; possibly he was just internalizing what I said. I don't want to get married just to get married. I specifically want to marry my BF. I think he's great, we share values and boundaries (or have worked out the few issues that needed working out), we both want kids, we have a good sex life, we trust each other, etc. My "timeline" for getting engaged is that I'm not ready right now. I want to have my finances in order. This will happen within the next 3-4 months. I want to get engaged after that, but before the next year and a half (make sense?)....I want to get engaged sometime in the year after I get my $$ in order. My BF tells me that he wants to get engaged ASAP because he wants to have his first baby in the next 2 years. But as far as I can tell, he's not actually taking any steps in that direction (talking to a lawyer about a prenup, looking at rings, having a real discussion with me about living together, etc.). He knows that I absolutely will not have a baby with him or anyone if I am not married....but if he wants to have a baby in 2 years, and he wants me to move in with him before we get engaged, but hasn't even asked me to move in....hello!!?? What is he thinking? LoL What I'm hearing from him is "In 2 years we need to have lived with each other for 6 months-1 year, then be engaged for 1 year, then get married, and have a baby." Which makes no sense, especially since he hasn't gotten the ball rolling in that direction. OP, have you and your BF talked about marriage, family and children *in general*? During those conversations, have you clearly stated what your preferences for a committed relationship/marriage are? Men like clarity. This is not 'pushing' him. It's communicating what you want for yourself in life. He can choose to be a part of that or not, as you can, based on what *he* wants. Yes, we have. Supposedly he wants the same things I do. What are you saying here? Did he actually make any of those 'maybe' statements, or are you projecting? Why, if he broached the subject, isn't it possible to have a 'blunt and honest' conversation about it? Those are my own internal thoughts on this subject/why I started this thread. I feel like (because of what I wrote above) maybe we have had an honest conversation on the face of things, but maybe deep down this isn't what he really wants. Does that make sense? BTW, how long have you been together? We've been together for over 2 years; known each other longer. He's also almost 10 years older than I am; kind of "been there done that" and ready to settle down. Edit: my "timeline" is also specific to this BF - I don't want to end up dating him (or anyone) in perpetuity. It's not that I have to be married within the next 2 or 3 years or whatever - it's just that with my BF, it needs to happen or I'm moving on. And, maybe I should add that my BF is a "big picture" idea kind of person. I am a detail person. Edited April 2, 2010 by SecretSquirrel
Author SecretSquirrel Posted April 2, 2010 Author Posted April 2, 2010 He's only saying he wants to get married because youre passively forcing him. If you want to see how serious he is about it, then dont mention it ever. he wont WANT to until he has no pressure from you. And any mention of marriage or living together is pressure. Your ideas on living together is also going to push him away. If you wont move in with him unless a ring is months away and definite, then he wont move in with you until he's sure he wants to get married. Right now, he doesnt want to marry you. You ruined the romance for him. What makes you say that I am passively forcing him? Since I'm not ready to be engaged/married at this point in time, I wonder if he thinks maybe he's pressuring me by bringing it up.
Author SecretSquirrel Posted April 2, 2010 Author Posted April 2, 2010 Sorry I keep blowing up my own thread. I think the following is pretty telling also. When having a conversation about living together before marriage, I explained to my BF that I think the argument about testing for compatibility is bull, and his response was that it wasn't about seeing if we're compatible, it's about wanting to be together everyday. Well, then get married!! He has not given me an acceptable (IMO) answer for why he wants to live together before marriage. This is why I suspect he's trying to entice me with a puppy. I know he wants a puppy anyways, but is now saying he won't get one until I move in.
carhill Posted April 2, 2010 Posted April 2, 2010 My "timeline" for getting engaged is that I'm not ready right now. I want to have my finances in order. This will happen within the next 3-4 months. I want to get engaged after that, but before the next year and a half (make sense?)....I want to get engaged sometime in the year after I get my $$ in order. My BF tells me that he wants to get engaged ASAP because he wants to have his first baby in the next 2 years. But as far as I can tell, he's not actually taking any steps in that direction (talking to a lawyer about a prenup, looking at rings, having a real discussion with me about living together, etc.). Has there been a compromise solution proposed? If yes, what? When you've had these 'talks' do you get a sense of mutual intimacy from them, like you both are in this as a team working it out? I think you know what I mean. A synergy of thought and emotion? Or, do you feel somewhat disconnected and not in the moment? IMO, since your BF has been proactive in *discussing* marriage, it's fairly simple to watch if his actions match his talk. If you think things are clear and you've reached a resolution as a team, accept that and that he will act in the team's best interest without further input. If unclear or no resolution reached, express that to him, clearly. Re-iterate what you want and that you want this to work out and are positive it will. Have you considered PMC? Why?
Author SecretSquirrel Posted April 2, 2010 Author Posted April 2, 2010 Has there been a compromise solution proposed? If yes, what? When you've had these 'talks' do you get a sense of mutual intimacy from them, like you both are in this as a team working it out? I think you know what I mean. A synergy of thought and emotion? Or, do you feel somewhat disconnected and not in the moment? IMO, since your BF has been proactive in *discussing* marriage, it's fairly simple to watch if his actions match his talk. If you think things are clear and you've reached a resolution as a team, accept that and that he will act in the team's best interest without further input. If unclear or no resolution reached, express that to him, clearly. Re-iterate what you want and that you want this to work out and are positive it will. Have you considered PMC? Why? Yes, I know what you mean....and no, I don't feel like we're working as a team to resolve this. I feel like we're just having hypothetical conversations. I have thought about PMC myself, because I think it would help us work out things I think are important, such as finances. I haven't brought it up with my BF because I'm left feeling like he isn't really serious about marriage. Maybe I'm just making excuses, but I just don't know. Sometimes I think that my BF just takes a really long time to make big decisions. He weighs so many options that he just ends up doing nothing. He also is not someone who plans things, like dates, special occasions or vacations. He is more than happy to leave that up to someone else (me, usually, or another family member or friend).
carhill Posted April 2, 2010 Posted April 2, 2010 Since BF is open to dialogue and appears to communicate readily, even if not always on point, he should be a good candidate for PMC. Also, as a man 10 years older (I'm assuming mid-30's minimum), he's mature enough to understand the value of getting help with important issues like marriage. You mentioned a lawyer for a pre-nup, so that's sounds like you've discussed getting that kind of help. Help is help. Perhaps refocus on the team aspect and positive resolution and ask him to join you to get some help with that. Even though I'm divorcing, the 14 months of MC I and my stbx had helped me a lot. Had it occured earlier in the M, or even before, perhaps we might have made it, or not gotten married. Clarity is a healthy thing, IMO. Best wishes in your journey
boogieboy Posted April 2, 2010 Posted April 2, 2010 Sorry I keep blowing up my own thread. I think the following is pretty telling also. When having a conversation about living together before marriage, I explained to my BF that I think the argument about testing for compatibility is bull, and his response was that it wasn't about seeing if we're compatible, it's about wanting to be together everyday. Well, then get married!! He has not given me an acceptable (IMO) answer for why he wants to live together before marriage. This is why I suspect he's trying to entice me with a puppy. I know he wants a puppy anyways, but is now saying he won't get one until I move in. maybe he's tried moving in with someone before and it was a disaster. He may not tell you this, but people can be different when you live with them. Learning how to compromise with each others stuff in the same place, its a hassle and not everyone makes it through it. He may not have that confidence. Its better to figure that out by living together for a while before going into an expensive marriage arrangement. He has to be sure in his mind that you wont drive him crazy when he has to wake up next to you every day with no break. He has to be sure that you wont change when you move in with him. He cant be trapped in marriage with you and then you turn into a different person post-shack-up.
ADF Posted April 2, 2010 Posted April 2, 2010 He's only saying he wants to get married because youre passively forcing him. If you want to see how serious he is about it, then dont mention it ever. he wont WANT to until he has no pressure from you. And any mention of marriage or living together is pressure. Your ideas on living together is also going to push him away. If you wont move in with him unless a ring is months away and definite, then he wont move in with you until he's sure he wants to get married. Right now, he doesnt want to marry you. You ruined the romance for him. Oh, c'mon. We both know that many men---maybe even most men--would never propose marriage if they didn't feel like they had to. They'd be perfectly happy just sort of drifitng along, making no firm commitments at all. And why not? Nowadays, there is nothing a man might want--love, sex, companionship--that he needs marriage in order to get. Nothing. Objectively speaking, the incentive for men to marry is basically gone. If this woman really wants to get married--and it sounds as if she does--she's going to have to make an issue of it. Otherwise, she'll end up waiting for years and years for nothing.
Author SecretSquirrel Posted April 2, 2010 Author Posted April 2, 2010 Since BF is open to dialogue and appears to communicate readily, even if not always on point, he should be a good candidate for PMC. Also, as a man 10 years older (I'm assuming mid-30's minimum), he's mature enough to understand the value of getting help with important issues like marriage. You mentioned a lawyer for a pre-nup, so that's sounds like you've discussed getting that kind of help. Help is help. Perhaps refocus on the team aspect and positive resolution and ask him to join you to get some help with that. Even though I'm divorcing, the 14 months of MC I and my stbx had helped me a lot. Had it occured earlier in the M, or even before, perhaps we might have made it, or not gotten married. Clarity is a healthy thing, IMO. Best wishes in your journey Thank you for all your help Oh, c'mon. We both know that many men---maybe even most men--would never propose marriage if they didn't feel like they had to. They'd be perfectly happy just sort of drifitng along, making no firm commitments at all. And why not? Nowadays, there is nothing a man might want--love, sex, companionship--that he needs marriage in order to get. Nothing. Objectively speaking, the incentive for men to marry is basically gone. If this woman really wants to get married--and it sounds as if she does--she's going to have to make an issue of it. Otherwise, she'll end up waiting for years and years for nothing. Unfortunately, I agree with most of this.
Author SecretSquirrel Posted April 3, 2010 Author Posted April 3, 2010 He's now mentioned that maybe he'll propose in a year+. I'm just going to stick to my timeline and forget about it for now. I'll just assume that he's not going to do it. When he brings it up I won't play along with his "what ifs" and hypotheticals and "When we live togethers", unless he brings it up as an actual serious conversation.
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