Living without forgiving - DANGER!

[Snowflower]

I disagree. The vast majority of women appear to not have high enough self-esteem to leave and that for them, makes staying the easier option. Not that it's 'easy', but certainly far less frightening for someone with poor self-worth, than getting out.

 

 

We'll have to agree to disagree here, turnstone, about the self-esteem of a BW. Do some BS have poor self esteem? Well, sure they do. But there are plenty who are self-assured enough to feel (eventually) just fine about their decision.

 

I'm confident I made the right choice for me and my self-esteem is intact. And I will say that my feelings of self-worth are NOT based on what my H did. I'm my own person, apart from my relationship with my H. What he did is all on him, his choice.

 

I do agree that many times it is better for the BS to divorce after their spouse has an affair. In most cases after an A, I think divorce is the ultimate outcome even if it is not immediate.

 

However, there are also many times where the marriage can be saved; both spouses learn from the crisis, and go on to be stronger, more healthy individuals while continuing the marriage.

[hurting_in_nw]

Great thread, as I'm dealing with continued anger toward my XW and the OM who she will soon be marrying, even after three years and moving on myself. I have no desire to ever be with her again, I find her to be an utterly disgusting human being, so I don't know why I'm still caught up in this anger whenever I'm reminded that they are still together. I guess it's about justice in my case. I hate seeing such despicable people come out happy after hurting so many people, destroying two marriages and a young family (mine). I really want to be able to let it go, and have often heard "forgiveness" is the only way, but to me that's a crock. It's an injustice that happened to me...I remember it so that I can look out for myself so it doesn't happen again. I'm just tired of getting pissed off and having my day go to crap whenever something comes up that reminds me. The most recent episode was her mother linking me to some pictures of my son, that also had photos of the XW and her guy living it up on the beach. I feel justified in my feelings, but I'm also tired of feeling them. Not sure how to proceed.

[turnstone]

Hurting in NW, I've been lucky. Knowing that my ex H's ego has taken the biggest shock of its life has been extremely therapeutic for me. That was my vengeance, my payback, and I feel good about it. So conversely, I understand how hollow I would feel if there had been no justice for his actions. I would struggle very much with it, just like you are.

 

I can only think that to reconcile there being no obvious payback, one has to make the conscious decision to stop looking for it. Instead take up concentrating solely on your own life and stop allowing any powerful thought of your ex to intrude upon it.

 

For starters, in your mind make her nothing more than an acquaintance that you feel embarrassed about knowing. Someone like that would have no power over you, instead you would feel pity for them and distaste, emotions that are far easier to handle than anger at injustice!

[wheelwright]

I can accept everything else, except the bolded. The bolded sounds like love is this catch all excuse for piss poor behavior and decision making.

 

No married person should be out looking for love. If they feel they need to do that, they need to be out looking for a lawyer to divorce the spouse they feel doesn't love them.

 

The bolded items are unacceptable for me. I can accept that the world can be a harsh place, that I and my partner or children are not perfect, or that my needs may not always be met. But I will not accept that my spouse somehow as a right to look for love outside of our M and I'm supposed to be okay with that. The thought that I am should just "suck it up" just doesn't sit well with me.

 

Thanks NID because you have helped me see what is unacceptable in this way of thinking ( I want to add that this is only one way in which I think - I have other internal voices telling me I am a shabby b***h, that infidelity in itself is wrong as opposed to thinking of it as the hurt involved being wrong etc etc ad infi-bl**dy-nitum)). And it is the form of expression the A takes in dealing with life that makes it wrong - on the whole and perhaps.

 

I apologise to anyone who was disturbed when I compared A gaslighting to Santa. TBH I found the Santa myth unravelled slightly disturbing as a kid. And I hold by the idea that it sets us up for considering the idea that lies of a certain sort can be 'magical illusions' as opposed to 'evil subterfuge'. I have a friend who says if her H had an A, she would rather not know.

 

I fully realise that the gaslighting in an A can be very painful. I have been gaslighted myself in this way - and it hurt.

 

But many (most) APs are not in the gaslighting for evil kicks. They are making mistakes they will (maybe, or need to) learn from.

 

I was not trying on this thread to use love as an excuse, though I did this myself during my A. I was not saying the love makes it right, but that it makes it understandable and easy to forgive.

 

I am trying to understand the precise reaons why an A is so hurtful to a BS. I see many reasons not to have an A in a strong R - many strong Rs have no desire that way. I didn't when my R was strong. But once the desire is there, isn't it the desire that is hurtful? Isn't the rest letting people be who they need to be?

 

Many people on this thread and others say if you have the desire, go get a D. This seems to me even less of a decent commitment than having an A. At least in following desire as opposed to D you are exploring the possibility rather than abandoning a commitment.

 

People who have As want something their M doesn't bring at that time. As we see here on LS, they often and painfully catapault a M into getting all/most needs met in the M.

 

People who have As are often too messed up to judge what they want re M, D, As, or anything. They are unhappy in their M and want out of their unhappiness. Or they seek a portion of happiness that fails to make them happy. And in some cases they find happiness in the A.

 

But As can help people see what happiness is and isn't. We learn that it isn't gaslighting, running away, burying our heads, or settling. They help those of us who are immature to reassess commitment love. Or our requirements for intimacy that are unmet, also that we don't give.

 

I also feel that everyone has a right to experience and search for love and connection in their life. And that it is possible that it is not As that are wrong, but our way of looking at them.

 

I want(ed) a M where neither party ever needed anything more. I felt that was the best way to live a life. But it didn't work out like that for me.

[ladydesigner]

Many people on this thread and others say if you have the desire, go get a D. This seems to me even less of a decent commitment than having an A. At least in following desire as opposed to D you are exploring the possibility rather than abandoning a commitment.

 

People who have As want something their M doesn't bring at that time. As we see here on LS, they often and painfully catapault a M into getting all/most needs met in the M.

 

People who have As are often too messed up to judge what they want re M, D, As, or anything. They are unhappy in their M and want out of their unhappiness. Or they seek a portion of happiness that fails to make them happy. And in some cases they find happiness in the A.

 

But As can help people see what happiness is and isn't. We learn that it isn't gaslighting, running away, burying our heads, or settling. They help those of us who are immature to reassess commitment love. Or our requirements for intimacy that are unmet, also that we don't give.

 

I also feel that everyone has a right to experience and search for love and connection in their life. And that it is possible that it is not As that are wrong, but our way of looking at them.

 

This is a very interesting post Wheelwright. I think everyone's realities ARE different. It is not all black and white.

[Dexter Morgan]

And that it is possible that it is not As that are wrong, but our way of looking at them.

 

an idea that affairs are not wrong? no offense, but that is the biggest load of crap i have ever heard.

 

you whole post, even to a die-hard anti-cheater like me, had me for a while until that above statement.

 

affairs ARE wrong because you are betraying someone. Betrayal sure as hell aint right.

 

Now if you want to make the argument that affairs can be a good thing, I can go for that. Affairs help weed out people that aren't worth a squirt;)

[wheelwright]

an idea that affairs are not wrong? no offense, but that is the biggest load of crap i have ever heard.

 

you whole post, even to a die-hard anti-cheater like me, had me for a while until that above statement.

 

affairs ARE wrong because you are betraying someone. Betrayal sure as hell aint right.

 

Now if you want to make the argument that affairs can be a good thing, I can go for that. Affairs help weed out people that aren't worth a squirt;)

 

I almost love you Dexter. You made me laugh again.

 

I hope I am worth something, but my (stbx?) H may be with you here.

 

I do agree that betrayal ain't right. Yes. I just wonder if sometimes we shouldn't look a bit deeper for the reasons for this wrong symptom of problems. Like poverty isn't really the fault of poor people, even though it is those poor people who seem to be unable to go out and get a good job.

 

You can call unemployed people lazy, and some of them (not all), are. But then their laziness comes down to stuff that has wider issues. I can get frustrated with people like that. But then some people genuinely struggle to get a job.

 

And some people are born in emotional ghettos, and an A is the sudden realisation that there is another way of living possible. I wouldn't blame a hungry person for stealing, tbh. My ethics just don't work that way.

 

Stealing isn't the best way though. But then if society were different, there might be no need for anyone alive to steal...

 

Just analogies, passing the time.

[You Go Girl]

On forgiveness---

after spending years in pain, I can say for sure one thing--that anger will turn inward into depression. That anger is bad for your heart, your head, and your entire physical being.

But forgiveness is ONLY given with atonement, that is--if you are going to keep that person in your life.

You can forgive someone if you walk away from them, even without their atonement. That's just letting yourself move on. Anger, pain, these things will keep you in a prison of which only you have the key. If the offender is no longer in your life, then there's no reason to keep the anger with you, is there? That's just baggage. Free yourself from it.

 

Wheelright---I have to call you out on some things you say.

Let's get one thing straight from the get-go--

gaslighting as many are calling it--it's just another word for LIES.

Lies have ONLY ONE objective---and that is TO STOP THE OTHER PERSON FROM HAVING THE NECESSARY KNOWLEDGE TO MAKE AN INFORMED DECISION, OR HAVE A CHOICE.

That's right...so don't try to glorify 'gaslighting' which is really just LIES.

Lies are used to deny another person their rightful choice. And that's the only reason they exist, period.

So someone such as yourself who had an affair--who was confused as to whether they wanted to stay or go--did so secretly so that the other half of the equation couldn't make a decision whether they wanted to stay or to go.

Now the real point to all this--

Honesty isn't just the best policy. It's Truth. And truth is the only way to find out what path to take in life, what decision to make, where to go from here, no matter whether you are the offender or the offendee. Lies hide the truth so that everybody can't find it. So everybody is lost.

If a person thinking of having an affair would simply tell their mate--then the truth could be found for all. The marriage would wake up and take a look at itself, and both parties in that marriage would too. The outcome of the affair would not necessarily be changed to preserve the marriage--but all would happen at a much quicker pace--because the truth would be right there for all to see and reckon with.

Don't waste other people's time in life by destroying their ability to make informed decisions.

Don't waste your own time in life by hiding who you are, or how you are currently feeling.

[wheelwright]

On forgiveness---

after spending years in pain, I can say for sure one thing--that anger will turn inward into depression. That anger is bad for your heart, your head, and your entire physical being.

But forgiveness is ONLY given with atonement, that is--if you are going to keep that person in your life.

You can forgive someone if you walk away from them, even without their atonement. That's just letting yourself move on. Anger, pain, these things will keep you in a prison of which only you have the key. If the offender is no longer in your life, then there's no reason to keep the anger with you, is there? That's just baggage. Free yourself from it.

 

Wheelright---I have to call you out on some things you say.

Let's get one thing straight from the get-go--

gaslighting as many are calling it--it's just another word for LIES.

Lies have ONLY ONE objective---and that is TO STOP THE OTHER PERSON FROM HAVING THE NECESSARY KNOWLEDGE TO MAKE AN INFORMED DECISION, OR HAVE A CHOICE.

That's right...so don't try to glorify 'gaslighting' which is really just LIES.

Lies are used to deny another person their rightful choice. And that's the only reason they exist, period.

So someone such as yourself who had an affair--who was confused as to whether they wanted to stay or go--did so secretly so that the other half of the equation couldn't make a decision whether they wanted to stay or to go.

Now the real point to all this--

Honesty isn't just the best policy. It's Truth. And truth is the only way to find out what path to take in life, what decision to make, where to go from here, no matter whether you are the offender or the offendee. Lies hide the truth so that everybody can't find it. So everybody is lost.

If a person thinking of having an affair would simply tell their mate--then the truth could be found for all. The marriage would wake up and take a look at itself, and both parties in that marriage would too. The outcome of the affair would not necessarily be changed to preserve the marriage--but all would happen at a much quicker pace--because the truth would be right there for all to see and reckon with.

Don't waste other people's time in life by destroying their ability to make informed decisions.

Don't waste your own time in life by hiding who you are, or how you are currently feeling.

 

I like this post. I have learnt through my actions that truth is best. But I also know that deceit is part of us. We each tell lies (mainly white lies) to keep things running. I do not want to hurt my friend by telling her she is overweight or underweight more than I think necessary for her best interests.

 

And that's the key to gaslighting, where there is no evil intent. It's just someone weighing up the pros and cons of what's in the gaslighted person's best interests -something we do for people we care about all the time. Even if we don't lie, we spin. We make the truth sound nice.

 

The fact that we would rather they had told us we were fat, a total failure, a BS, or whatever bad s**t they may have for us, makes no difference. Is there anyone out there who will honestly say they will tell their friend that they are unattractive to most men? Wouldn't you tell them instead that people find different things attractive, and not to worry?

 

If people get our best interests wrong, we feel sore as hell. Yep. Especially if we are invested in that person caring about us beyond the superficial.

 

It doesn't mean they weren't considering us.

 

Heck, I almost want to play devil's advocate again, and say the WS goes to such lengths in their deceit to save the feelings of the BS that this is proof of caring.

 

Despite all this, I believe in truth. But it's the truth where the WS runs off with the AP. That's the truth of what I felt would be right in my soul, without any societal issues, thoughts about hurting others, or ****ing circumstances.

 

That's not the truth the BS generally gets, or would ever remotely hear about.

 

It's the truth the BS can make with the WS, where willingness for new intimacy is possible.

 

Good luck to those who reconcile.

 

I have failed.

[bentnotbroken]

I like this post. I have learnt through my actions that truth is best. But I also know that deceit is part of us. We each tell lies (mainly white lies) to keep things running. I do not want to hurt my friend by telling her she is overweight or underweight more than I think necessary for her best interests.

 

And that's the key to gaslighting, where there is no evil intent. It's just someone weighing up the pros and cons of what's in the gaslighted person's best interests -something we do for people we care about all the time. Even if we don't lie, we spin. We make the truth sound nice.

 

The fact that we would rather they had told us we were fat, a total failure, a BS, or whatever bad s**t they may have for us, makes no difference. Is there anyone out there who will honestly say they will tell their friend that they are unattractive to most men? Wouldn't you tell them instead that people find different things attractive, and not to worry?

 

If people get our best interests wrong, we feel sore as hell. Yep. Especially if we are invested in that person caring about us beyond the superficial.

 

It doesn't mean they weren't considering us.

 

Heck, I almost want to play devil's advocate again, and say the WS goes to such lengths in their deceit to save the feelings of the BS that this is proof of caring.

 

Despite all this, I believe in truth. But it's the truth where the WS runs off with the AP. That's the truth of what I felt would be right in my soul, without any societal issues, thoughts about hurting others, or ****ing circumstances.

 

That's not the truth the BS generally gets, or would ever remotely hear about.

 

It's the truth the BS can make with the WS, where willingness for new intimacy is possible.

 

Good luck to those who reconcile.

 

I have failed.

 

 

You live your life with lies, most of us don't. I still am extremely irritated that you keep equating gaslighting with telling a child there is a Santa. That's just crap and I do believe I understand more now why things didn't work out the way you desired them to.

[turnstone]

You live your life with lies, most of us don't. I still am extremely irritated that you keep equating gaslighting with telling a child there is a Santa. That's just crap and I do believe I understand more now why things didn't work out the way you desired them to.

 

Honey, its just another way of justifying what they know deep down is wrong. Don't sweat it, because that's just grist to their mill.

[You Go Girl]

There is zero comparison between not telling your friend they are fat, and not telling your spouse you are in bed with somebody else.

The first isn't self-serving, the latter is completely self-serving.

[soserious1]

 

 

 

I also feel that everyone has a right to experience and search for love and connection in their life. And that it is possible that it is not As that are wrong, but our way of looking at them.

 

I want(ed) a M where neither party ever needed anything more. I felt that was the best way to live a life. But it didn't work out like that for me.

 

 

I'm with you all the way up to those points..

 

If you feel that everyone has the right to search constantly for love and connections in their lives you make that clear, up front several times before you marry. It's great to sit and wax poetic after the affair but the fact remains that in the vast majority of affairs only the WS is operating under this lovely idea of yours, the BS is sitting there laboring under the delusion that however troubled the marriage may be, they vowed to remain monogamous & their partner is as well.

 

As to your last point, your marriage didn't "just not work out that way" you made a series of active CHOICES to indulge in an affair. This didn't just happen to you, each step along the continuum you actively chose to take steps that caused you to dishonor your spouse & basically prove that your word, your vows are worthless.

[PhoenixRise]

The point that everybody keeps trying to make is that gaslighting ALWAYS has a malicious and self serving intention.

 

It is not, not telling your friend that she is fat (I have told friends this) because you don't want to hurt their feelings.

 

It looking into your wife/husband's eyes when he questions you about the excessive texts, calls, late nights, other affair related stuff, and saying to them..."Sweetie you know me, I would never do anything to hurt you. You know I am working so late for us..to make our future better, the person I am texting so much is a friend in deep trouble because.....and you know you have always told me that you love my loyalty and compassion for others. How could you even think I would ever cheat on you. I have loved you my whole life. I am so hurt and upset that you don't trust me, without trust we have nothing so you tell me right now if you trust me or not. In all the years we have been together what have I EVER done that would make you so suspicious? What is going on with you that is making you so insecure?"

 

THAT is gaslighting. Maliciously twisting reality so that the WS can continue the affair undisturbed. It is completely self serving and there is NOTHING in it of trying to save the feelings of the BS, in fact, it only works if the WS can make the BS feel WORSE for even suspecting an affair in the first place.

 

IT is deliberately making a spouse question their own instincts and sanity. The person who does this is NOT some highly evolved loving being who just want to save the feelings of the person they are lying to.

 

But you know what, this conversation is not going to go anywhere because either you place a high value on honesty and integrity or you don't.

 

Society has not forced anybody to do anything. People create the kind of relationship/marriages they want everyday all the time. All it takes is some personal courage and the ability to be honest with yourself about what you want need and expect and the courage to be honest with any partners about the same.

 

Blaming society is very easy. It is also a cop out.

[wheelwright]

The point that everybody keeps trying to make is that gaslighting ALWAYS has a malicious and self serving intention.

 

It is not, not telling your friend that she is fat (I have told friends this) because you don't want to hurt their feelings.

 

It looking into your wife/husband's eyes when he questions you about the excessive texts, calls, late nights, other affair related stuff, and saying to them..."Sweetie you know me, I would never do anything to hurt you. You know I am working so late for us..to make our future better, the person I am texting so much is a friend in deep trouble because.....and you know you have always told me that you love my loyalty and compassion for others. How could you even think I would ever cheat on you. I have loved you my whole life. I am so hurt and upset that you don't trust me, without trust we have nothing so you tell me right now if you trust me or not. In all the years we have been together what have I EVER done that would make you so suspicious? What is going on with you that is making you so insecure?"

 

THAT is gaslighting. Maliciously twisting reality so that the WS can continue the affair undisturbed. It is completely self serving and there is NOTHING in it of trying to save the feelings of the BS, in fact, it only works if the WS can make the BS feel WORSE for even suspecting an affair in the first place.

 

IT is deliberately making a spouse question their own instincts and sanity. The person who does this is NOT some highly evolved loving being who just want to save the feelings of the person they are lying to.

 

But you know what, this conversation is not going to go anywhere because either you place a high value on honesty and integrity or you don't.

 

Society has not forced anybody to do anything. People create the kind of relationship/marriages they want everyday all the time. All it takes is some personal courage and the ability to be honest with yourself about what you want need and expect and the courage to be honest with any partners about the same.

 

Blaming society is very easy. It is also a cop out.

 

I really liked your post.

 

First. I did not gaslight my H in this way. In fact I was utterly incapable of it. I split with him, told him I was not happy in the M etc. I had sex with hi once, and I felt awful about it and didn't do it again.

 

My H to this day says I did not lie to him, though I did deceive him.

 

I told one outright lie in the A - I had bumped into the AP by chance, we went somewhere to talk. I told my H I had been somewhere else. Once in the whole A.

 

I did not tell him he was mad to be suspicious. He wasn't suspicious.

 

I am someone who does value honesty. I would not f*** with people's sanity here. But in retrospect, my H feels gaslighted - just not to the extent you mention. The pain of it by omission.

 

My xMOM said it would finish his M if his W knew - which meant I couldn't tell my H.

 

So yes, my gaslighting considered others.

 

Now, I tell my H all. Even that I still have feelings for xMOM, which he can't cope with. But he asks, I tell the truth.

 

This thread has made people believe something not true about me - that I believe in not telling the truth. I believe in truth more than I believe in right - that was between the lines.

 

I am walking my truth now.

 

I'm not sure that makes it right for others, but it feels good for me.