Spark1111 Posted April 2, 2010 Posted April 2, 2010 Wheelwright, Yes there is beauty and love and pity in relationships. But my fWS did not tell me of his affair to spare MY feelings. Get real. My feelings were not even a blip on his radar --as I assume your H's feelings were not also--when he took those thousand missteps to engage in an attraction that led to his secret affair. If my true feelings had been considered for one nanosecond the AFFAIR WOULD HAVE NEVER HAPPENED. Not telling me to not hurt me, was to SPARE his feelings; the feelings of having to feel the consequences of his actions: pain, devastation, tears, guilt, shame and anger. To spare the BS pain is just justification in continuing to preserve the secret affair, IMHO. It is the biggest excuse out there in Infidelity land. It allows the WS to continue selfishly having their needs met by their AP under the guise that what my BS doesn't know won't hurt them. It is bullcrap at it's finest! The minute he turned to another with his time, affection, conversation, sexual intimacy, is the day he checked out on the marriage. Shame on him. He was no longer investing anything into the marriage. His ACTIONS killed the marriage. Not TELLING ME prolonged the death knell. Not telling is the height of selfishness. Being in a relationship all alone is the loneliest feeling in the world. No matter what reason he gives himself to spare me pain, I am already living it every day.
Snowflower Posted April 2, 2010 Posted April 2, 2010 I find the thoughts in this thread difficult. Someone in your life really wanted to be with someone else, and didn't want to tell you because it would hurt you. And they had reasons - they wanted to connect with someone else at that moment. Would you really deny another human being that right? Why should BSs stop that happening? Why are they so hurt? WW, I find your post difficult. I hope you will come back and further explain your thoughts here. Are you basing your post on the fact that your MM's wife had once said that she had never loved him? I might be thinking of another poster, and I apologize if I have you mixed up with someone else. If this was your situation, your MM still made the decision to stay with his wife. Even if she didn't love him, he still made that decision (to stay) for himself. As hard as that is to accept, it's what happened. As for why should a BS deny their WS from being with someone else? Well, why is it the BS's fault? Sounds more like it is the fault of the WS fault if they are denying themselves something (someone) they want. I don't think anyone (BS, AP, WS/MP) can ever "deny" someone from doing something. If someone wants to do something bad enough, they will. If the MP wants to be with their AP, they will find a way. I know this is never believed by the AP, but I told my WH to go find happiness after D-day. If it wasn't with me, then I would have to accept that. But I didn't want him to be unhappy in our marriage or with me. I remember when I told him this. We were in a restaurant, talking things out and he looked so sad and lost. My hands were shaking, my heart was breaking, but I told him to go do whatever it was he felt he needed to do to be happy. We would figure out the legal aspects of ending our marriage but that he could consider himself 'released' from his commitment to me. So, I was a BS who told my WH to go find happiness. But seriously, a BS shouldn't be hurt by their spouse connecting with someone else? Wow.
Spark1111 Posted April 2, 2010 Posted April 2, 2010 Connect with whomever you want to! I am a grown up! As much as that hurts, I understand people can fall in and out of love.It is human nature. I will deal with it. I will forgive it in time and move on to find someone I LOVE AND CONNECT WITH. If after all this time, you cannot understand that the deceit practiced in an affair is manipulative, selfish and controlling of the BS, in that it DENIES them the opportunity to find true love while you are out emotionally connecting with your "soul mate," and yet, retain the stability of returning home to us, unawares of your secret life, I am speechless.
PhoenixRise Posted April 2, 2010 Posted April 2, 2010 As for why should a BS deny their WS from being with someone else? Well, why is it the BS's fault? Sounds more like it is the fault of the WS fault if they are denying themselves something (someone) they want. Amazing how the BW is pitied and condescended to and seen as a passionless, emasculating wifey, right up until the WS doesn't leave her. Then she is all powerful and has the ability to keep a person against their will. I don't think anyone (BS, AP, WS/MP) can ever "deny" someone from doing something. If someone wants to do something bad enough, they will. If the MP wants to be with their AP, they will find a way. I know this is never believed by the AP, but I told my WH to go find happiness after D-day. If it wasn't with me, then I would have to accept that. But I didn't want him to be unhappy in our marriage or with me. I remember when I told him this. We were in a restaurant, talking things out and he looked so sad and lost. My hands were shaking, my heart was breaking, but I told him to go do whatever it was he felt he needed to do to be happy. We would figure out the legal aspects of ending our marriage but that he could consider himself 'released' from his commitment to me. So, I was a BS who told my WH to go find happiness. I did this too. In fact I left him and told him to go get her. But seriously, a BS shouldn't be hurt by their spouse connecting with someone else? Wow. Clearly BS are not evolved enough to understand the true nature of love. If they were, they would understand and not be hurt and angry that their WS gaslighted the hell out of them. It is just like Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny...ya know. Connect with whomever you want to! I am a grown up! As much as that hurts, I understand people can fall in and out of love.It is human nature. I will deal with it. I will forgive it in time and move on to find someone I LOVE AND CONNECT WITH. If after all this time, you cannot understand that the deceit practiced in an affair is manipulative, selfish and controlling of the BS, in that it DENIES them the opportunity to find true love while you are out emotionally connecting with your "soul mate," and yet, retain the stability of returning home to us, unawares of your secret life, I am speechless. The notion that a WS would not tell for the good of the BS is just a way to whitewash the lies and gaslighting involved in conducting an affair. God help me if I would ever let my husband labor under the delusion that his lies and deceit did ME any good. In fact all it did was diminish my respect for him to almost zero. I would have been hurt if he came to me and admitted that he had developed feelings for another, but I would have respected the fact that he had the integrity to be honest with himself and me.
Brokenlady Posted April 2, 2010 Posted April 2, 2010 I think what wheelwright was trying to say is: if you love someone, and they loe someone else - as much as it sucks, why wouldn't you let them go and be happy? An example: my xDm's xW never gave up. And I don't think she ever will. She is aware we were engaged and he told her repeatedly that he was in love with me. Her stance has been that she would be ok with anyone he dates as long as it isn't me. She has told him point blank- repeatedly- that if he can't be happy with her, she doesn't want him to be happy at all. And I believe she means it. Their D was final a long time ago, and yet she still asks him to come back, still stalks his whereabouts and if he so decided, she would take him back anytime. She said to him once that "I guess she (meaning me) won." It's just a big game for her, and to preserve her ego from the affair, she needs to win, even though she didn't care enough about him to not treat him like crap for their whole marriage. I think this is more the kind of BS wheelwright was referring to. The so-called "bitter" BS who is bent on winning and still fights for a man who repeatedly tells her that he isn't in love with her and is in fact in love with someone else. I think that if someone told me they didn't love me and loved someone else, I'd be very very hurt, but I wouldn't fight for him. Go and be happy then.
PhoenixRise Posted April 2, 2010 Posted April 2, 2010 (edited) I think what wheelwright was trying to say is: if you love someone, and they loe someone else - as much as it sucks, why wouldn't you let them go and be happy? An example: my xDm's xW never gave up. And I don't think she ever will. She is aware we were engaged and he told her repeatedly that he was in love with me. Her stance has been that she would be ok with anyone he dates as long as it isn't me. She has told him point blank- repeatedly- that if he can't be happy with her, she doesn't want him to be happy at all. And I believe she means it. Their D was final a long time ago, and yet she still asks him to come back, still stalks his whereabouts and if he so decided, she would take him back anytime. She said to him once that "I guess she (meaning me) won." It's just a big game for her, and to preserve her ego from the affair, she needs to win, even though she didn't care enough about him to not treat him like crap for their whole marriage. I think this is more the kind of BS wheelwright was referring to. The so-called "bitter" BS who is bent on winning and still fights for a man who repeatedly tells her that he isn't in love with her and is in fact in love with someone else. I think that if someone told me they didn't love me and loved someone else, I'd be very very hurt, but I wouldn't fight for him. Go and be happy then. I objected to Wheelwright equating the malicious gaslighting that happens to a BS during an affair with a child believing in Santa Clause or the Easter Bunny. The comparison is condescending. Brokenlady I don't know if your guy's ex wife is the norm. I can't imagine fighting to win any man....as I have said before, I didn't fight, I left. But even in your situation I put the blame on your DM. If he had been honest in his words AND his actions the ex wife wouldn't have had any ground to fight on. I believe you when you say the ex wife behaved badly. So Yes the ex wife knew you and DM were engaged...but your fiance knew he was engaged too. He chose to minimize his relationship with you. AND he did it NOT to benefit you and NOT to benefit his ex wife...he did it for his OWN benefit. The other thing I objected to about WW's post was her implication that WS lies and gaslights to benefit or not hurt the spouse. Lies and gaslighthing are self serving. They only benefit the WS, nobody else. Also it is unfair to suggest that the BS should just let go and not be angry if the spouse falls in love with another when the BS usually doesn't get the opportunity to react to just the news that their spouse has fallen for another....usually what the BS is reacting to is months/years of an affair and all the lies and deceit that go along with it. IMO Better to encourage people who are unhappy in the marriage or who are attracted to another or who is developing feelings for another to man/woman up and be honest with their spouse... Maybe the spouse will let them go without a fight and wish them well. Why expect the BS to be evolved and mature about the situation without expecting some level of character and integrity from the WS? Edited April 2, 2010 by PhoenixRise
Brokenlady Posted April 2, 2010 Posted April 2, 2010 Brokenlady I don't know if your guy's ex wife is the norm. I can't imagine fighting to win any man....as I have said before, I didn't fight, I left. I hope not. I can't imagine what goes through her head sometimes. It's this crazy mixture of wanting revenge and wanting to reconcile. Even now, she still lies to people and refuses to acknowledge that she's divorced. But even in your situation I put the blame on your DM. If he had been honest in his words AND his actions the ex wife wouldn't have had any ground to fight on. I believe you when you say the ex wife behaved badly. So Yes the ex wife knew you and DM were engaged...but your fiance knew he was engaged too. He chose to minimize his relationship with you. AND he did it NOT to benefit you and NOT to benefit his ex wife...he did it for his OWN benefit. I agree. I had no expectation for her to honor our engagement (a bit much, no?). My point was simply that if my xH was engaged to someone else, that'd be a clear signal to me that he'd moved on. She knew he was lying - she even confirmed that with me, but since she knew I'd leave him over it, she kept hammering away trying to get him to come home. She didn't seem to care that he'd moved on enough to want to marry someone else. It just feels nuts to me.
fooled once Posted April 3, 2010 Posted April 3, 2010 I find the thoughts in this thread difficult. Someone in your life really wanted to be with someone else, and didn't want to tell you because it would hurt you. And they had reasons - they wanted to connect with someone else at that moment. IF this is the case, then get a divorce. Don't have an affair - be honest with the person you married and tell them you aren't happy and want out. What is so wrong with honesty? Why can't these married people BE HONEST? Would you really deny another human being that right? Why should BSs stop that happening? Why are they so hurt? WHY is a betrayed spouse hurt when their spouse has an affair? Are you kidding? why do you think they are hurt???? It is deceit and fear of abandonment that steer the unforgiveness. And the deceit - well we are all hypocrites here. Who (western posters only) hasn't been complicit in the Santa myth? I am not a hypocrite. You might be, but just because my son believed in Santa, the tooth fair and the easter bunny doesn't mean I was setting out to malicious and willfully hurt him. Deceit is part of life. I feel it is the societally induced hurt that is the problem, not the infidelity. I don't have those same feelings. INFIDELITY = DECEIT. If you believe that infidelity isn't wrong, then why do affairs happen? Why are people sneaking around? why aren't they honest?? I think it is part of the beauty and hurt of love relationships. Without tests we wouldn't know. I hate deceit - I recently told my kid that the Easter Bunny doesn't exist - it felt wrong. We are still in complicit ignorance about Christmas. So - if you had an affair, you told your spouse? Did you shout to the world that you were in love with a married person? If you hate deceit, then you wouldn't be complicit or involved in an affair. Unless everyone is aware of the affair and is okay with it, then deceit is involved. I am not saying this as my only thoughts - I feel deeply unhappy now that I caused my H so much pain. But that is because I don't like deceit or causing others unhappiness. I would certainly have done what I did again if it didn't cause those culturally imposed elements. Why did you feel bad? You stated earlier that the betrayed spouse shouldn't feel bad or hurt when they are cheated on. Tell your spouse to suck it up and deal with it. Tell him he is denying you from being with your love. Or is it the MM's wife that is denying it? I am saying this because I think what you say on this subject of forgiveness depends on your ego, your thoughts about soul, and your willingness to let other people live a life in the face of your own hurt. So is your H letting you continue your affair, even though he is hurting? Did he tell you to continue to cheat on him? And if someone cares about you, but doesn't have your interests at heart, why then it is not about forgiveness. It is about letting go. And if you did ever care about them and not just yourself, you would let them go lightly. So if someone screws you over, if someone lies to you repeatedly, if someone gives you an STD, if someone who you trusted broke that trust completely -- a person should just say "see ya and I hope you have a wonderful life"? WOW.... I can't even wrap my head around this view.... If you know what I mean?!! And if someone doesn't believe in marriage - don't get married!!! Why can't people keep the commitment they wanted and worked for? When things get difficult, why not try working through it or getting counseling? WHY does it seem like the first thought seems to be "let me go find someone else to have sex with". And then BLAME the betrayed spouse because they ...... insert the excuse ...... and they need to just back out so the OW can have the guy now.... I am just so confused by this way of thinking....
NoIDidn't Posted April 3, 2010 Posted April 3, 2010 I hope not. I can't imagine what goes through her head sometimes. It's this crazy mixture of wanting revenge and wanting to reconcile. Even now, she still lies to people and refuses to acknowledge that she's divorced. You did say that neither of them actually told their kids that they were divorced, so this doesn't surprise me. I agree. I had no expectation for her to honor our engagement (a bit much, no?). My point was simply that if my xH was engaged to someone else, that'd be a clear signal to me that he'd moved on. She knew he was lying - she even confirmed that with me, but since she knew I'd leave him over it, she kept hammering away trying to get him to come home. She didn't seem to care that he'd moved on enough to want to marry someone else. It just feels nuts to me. The above sounds like you feel betrayed. Welcome to the club. But blaming her for his transgressing your engagement is futile.
NoIDidn't Posted April 3, 2010 Posted April 3, 2010 And if someone doesn't believe in marriage - don't get married!!! Why can't people keep the commitment they wanted and worked for? When things get difficult, why not try working through it or getting counseling? WHY does it seem like the first thought seems to be "let me go find someone else to have sex with". And then BLAME the betrayed spouse because they ...... insert the excuse ...... and they need to just back out so the OW can have the guy now.... I am just so confused by this way of thinking.... Nah, I think the cheaters know what they are doing is wrong, so they just blame the BS that they "had" to do something wrong to feel good about themselves. Reading KLM's thread just screams that. What I don't get is the hiding behind love when hurting others. Love celebrates the truth, not lies. I guess some define love differently than I do.
datura_noir Posted April 3, 2010 Posted April 3, 2010 It is not society's job to conform to your whims and fancyies; It works the exact opposite. Society = moral order. THAT is the norm. It exists for a reason. I don't think we will ever "evolve" to point where infidelity is embraced (unless you go to live on a commune in Sweden). That means that, somewhere down the road, you too would have to embrace it. And I have a hunch that many here would NOT embrace it. Yes, by all means, tell the BS that they must not be bitter but happy for their WS to find love, but also tell yourself the same thing when the FWS does the same to you. Fair enough, don't you think??
datura_noir Posted April 3, 2010 Posted April 3, 2010 ...And, just for the record, I would support anyone who was cheated on in a relationship that was borne from an affair. Doesn't make it right, and would make me a hypocrite. Same difference!
Author turnstone Posted April 3, 2010 Author Posted April 3, 2010 I have been burned many times in the name of forgiveness. Now I don't think forgiveness means acceptance of the behavior. I don't think forgiveness necessarily means continuation of any type of relationship with the transgressor. Forgiveness just means that I am choosing to redirect my energy and that I am (probably) not going to be watching and waiting for an opportunity pay you back. Nice! And you've described my feelings at the moment. Oh, all except the paying back part. Not that I'm waiting for the opportunity, but if it were to arise...... I get what you're saying here and I think I agree with it. I have had a hard time figuring out what 'forgiveness' really means--especially in the aftermath of my H's affair. As close as I can come to understanding it at this time means... Forgiveness = Acceptance And to clarify, acceptance meaning hey, this happened, now move on from it. My problem is that I really thought I had forgiven my husband quite some time ago. But lately, I'm beginning to think that I haven't. Yes, he has been extremely remorseful and to the best of my knowledge (which is only what anyone can do at any given time) I truly do not believe he will repeat his bad choice. He has been a very good husband since we reconciled nearly 1.5 years ago. But back to my confusion, I thought I had forgiven my H but I still haven't 'accepted' what he has done. I'm beginning to think I will never be able to accept what he has done. I'm getting worried! Can I ask something very personal of you Snowflower? Do you feel you have compromised your beliefs and/or values in any way by reconciling with him. I guess I'm confused...where is the "DANGER" in not forgiving them? Sarcasm... It's not that I forgive but I leave it to the universe to pay people back instead of me wasting my energy on it. Good one I think we have been way oversold on the power of forgiveness. Sometimes forgiving the trangressions of others is appropriate. But often, it just leaves us feelings humiliated. Being a good person does not require being "nice" all the time. We are under no obligation to forgive people who scorn us. Forgiveness is a gift, not an obligation. If someone horribly mistreats you, and what you need is to hate that person's guts, to never want to lay eyes on them again, so be it. Good for you. Thank you, thank you, thank you. I've been feeling horribly under pressure to adopt a saintlike attitude and forgive. For me, what I was subjected to was nothing short of unforgivable and for others to adopt this stance with me is really insulting. I feel I have every right to hold him, his other women and each and every action he's taken, in contempt now and forever (amen) and I'm so glad to find someone who agrees. For the record - I have no intention of allowing the last six/seven years to influence the rest of my life to the extent that you'll see many more of these ex H bashing threads. There will be no need to refer to me as Toggle
Brokenlady Posted April 3, 2010 Posted April 3, 2010 You did say that neither of them actually told their kids that they were divorced' date=' so this doesn't surprise me. [/quote'] The kids do know now. They naturally hold me 100% accountable. His daughter says that if she sees me anywhere she'll punch me. I can't blame her, but it makes me sad. The above sounds like you feel betrayed. Welcome to the club. But blaming her for his transgressing your engagement is futile. I do feel betrayed, because I was betrayed, many times by him. I don't blame her for what he did. What I'm trying to get across is I don't know why she would even want him back. I understand her trying to ruin the engagement to get revenge on both of us, but I don't understand why she STILL wants him back. He was about to marry someone else, and that only ended because she (me) walked away - not like he wanted to come running back to her (xw). Just weird.
wheelwright Posted April 5, 2010 Posted April 5, 2010 And if someone doesn't believe in marriage - don't get married!!! Why can't people keep the commitment they wanted and worked for? When things get difficult, why not try working through it or getting counseling? WHY does it seem like the first thought seems to be "let me go find someone else to have sex with". And then BLAME the betrayed spouse because they ...... insert the excuse ...... and they need to just back out so the OW can have the guy now.... I am just so confused by this way of thinking.... I agree with all you wrote, and all I wrote. I don't mean to be condescending, but I am stretching the remit of my own moral compass by what I wrote - devil's advocate but for a reason more than play. I like all the answers you gave. And I get it when I see my H's pain. But I don't get it when I think about all the ins and outs. It's not simple. Love sometimes gets cut in two by an A, and it hasn't been easy for me to see myself as someone who could behave like I did to my H. I haven't said anything in the spirit of condescension, rather to find out 'the truth' which is still not clear to me. I feel bad. I felt love for another. I hurt my H. I want to make sense of it without recourse to platitudes and dogma. And I cited Santa because this myth shows that gaslightling in itself is not always wrong - there is something else in the context which holds sway on the ethics, which all those in an A feel. And possibly something in the cultural history that allows us to feel secrecy from our closest family members can be a good thing - it can bring your hearts desire. And also, I wonder if we might not all be better off accepting than recriminating. I'm sure many BSs do this. I have in the past.
bentnotbroken Posted April 5, 2010 Posted April 5, 2010 I agree with all you wrote, and all I wrote. I don't mean to be condescending, but I am stretching the remit of my own moral compass by what I wrote - devil's advocate but for a reason more than play. I like all the answers you gave. And I get it when I see my H's pain. But I don't get it when I think about all the ins and outs. It's not simple. Love sometimes gets cut in two by an A, and it hasn't been easy for me to see myself as someone who could behave like I did to my H. I haven't said anything in the spirit of condescension, rather to find out 'the truth' which is still not clear to me. I feel bad. I felt love for another. I hurt my H. I want to make sense of it without recourse to platitudes and dogma. And I cited Santa because this myth shows that gaslightling in itself is not always wrong - there is something else in the context which holds sway on the ethics, which all those in an A feel. And possibly something in the cultural history that allows us to feel secrecy from our closest family members can be a good thing - it can bring your hearts desire. And also, I wonder if we might not all be better off accepting than recriminating. I'm sure many BSs do this. I have in the past. Accepting what exactly?
wheelwright Posted April 5, 2010 Posted April 5, 2010 Accepting what exactly? Accepting that others may treat us badly, so that they can treat themselves well. Accepting that we all fail to be perfect. Accepting that change helps shift stagnation. Accepting infidelity as an expression of another human being seeking love, instead of a crime against us. Accepting that what out SO does in search of love isn't that bad, even if it ignores us temporarily. Accepting that we can be ignored, and it doesn't make us less to anyone or ourselves. It is part of the pattern of life.
PhoenixRise Posted April 5, 2010 Posted April 5, 2010 It never ceases to amaze me the things people will rationalize and justify in the name of love. Why is it that the love of AP's occupies some special and ratified place in the minds of some people? Why is it that THIS emotion justifies everything while other emotions are belittled and diminished? It is ok and should be understood that the WS fell in love with another? AND due to that love lied, cheated, betrayed, gaslighted? It should be understood and accepted because the WS was in this special AP love that justifies it all? It is not the love (emotion) that is the problem. It is the actions taken it its name that are the problem. If you love another, then love with integrity. Tell the truth about it and don't twist somebody else's reality in its pursuit. If you (WS) chose not to have integrity in your actions and hurt others with your actions you don't get to expect the spouse to just accept it because you only did it because you were in love. Are AP's the only people in the world entitled and justified in their feelings? Or are the only feelings worth anything experienced by AP's in love? AND I will say it again. Gaslighting is a specific type of deception. All gaslighting is malicious. Minimising it by comparing it to a child believing in Santa is a guilt reducing tactic and insulting as hell.
bentnotbroken Posted April 5, 2010 Posted April 5, 2010 Accepting that others may treat us badly, so that they can treat themselves well. Accepting that we all fail to be perfect. Accepting that change helps shift stagnation. Accepting infidelity as an expression of another human being seeking love, instead of a crime against us. Accepting that what out SO does in search of love isn't that bad, even if it ignores us temporarily. Accepting that we can be ignored, and it doesn't make us less to anyone or ourselves. It is part of the pattern of life. :confused:HMMMM okay. I accept that there will always be butt monkeys in the world who will feel it is there right to disrespect, trash, trample on or in some cases expose to disease so that they can treat themselves well. I accept that they will in most cases never understand what it takes to care about anyone other than themselves. There really is no crime against us, it is against God and what he expects. But again we all accept that the standards for living life will always be different and I for one accept that what is sown will be reaped.
NoIDidn't Posted April 5, 2010 Posted April 5, 2010 The kids do know now. They naturally hold me 100% accountable. His daughter says that if she sees me anywhere she'll punch me. I can't blame her, but it makes me sad. Eventually she'll move on to wanting to punch her dad. And then her mom. Its the way of these things. I would be sad for her too. She has much more adjusting to do. I do feel betrayed, because I was betrayed, many times by him. I don't blame her for what he did. What I'm trying to get across is I don't know why she would even want him back. I understand her trying to ruin the engagement to get revenge on both of us, but I don't understand why she STILL wants him back. He was about to marry someone else, and that only ended because she (me) walked away - not like he wanted to come running back to her (xw). Just weird. I don't think its weird. Not disagreeing with you, because I can understand your feelings - they just aren't mine. Its not weird to me because I've known people that just won't let go. Even after a divorce. Male and Female. In fact, I was raised that until a person is actually married, walked down the aisle and said "I do" married, they are still available. I don't live by that as taught, but I get her still wanting him even though you two were engaged. That, and she might be following a popular website's advice to keep trying to get the marriage back up until they actually remarry or for about two years (whichever comes first). I wouldn't be surprised if her interest wanes sharply in the next year. I can't imagine why she would continue to want him back having gotten her revenge on you, either though. I would just as soon be happy that the marriage was (possibly only temporarily) thwarted, and then move on not wanting him myself either.
NoIDidn't Posted April 5, 2010 Posted April 5, 2010 Accepting that others may treat us badly, so that they can treat themselves well. Accepting that we all fail to be perfect. Accepting that change helps shift stagnation. Accepting infidelity as an expression of another human being seeking love, instead of a crime against us. Accepting that what out SO does in search of love isn't that bad, even if it ignores us temporarily. Accepting that we can be ignored, and it doesn't make us less to anyone or ourselves. It is part of the pattern of life. I can accept everything else, except the bolded. The bolded sounds like love is this catch all excuse for piss poor behavior and decision making. No married person should be out looking for love. If they feel they need to do that, they need to be out looking for a lawyer to divorce the spouse they feel doesn't love them. The bolded items are unacceptable for me. I can accept that the world can be a harsh place, that I and my partner or children are not perfect, or that my needs may not always be met. But I will not accept that my spouse somehow as a right to look for love outside of our M and I'm supposed to be okay with that. The thought that I am should just "suck it up" just doesn't sit well with me.
Author turnstone Posted April 5, 2010 Author Posted April 5, 2010 There's an awful lot of assuming that love of the OP is the only driving factor for an affair. In my experience and judging by a lot of threads posted on LS, love would appear to rarely be the motivation for an affair. It may be the excuse for one, but when D Day comes around, the WS suddenly seems to only feel love for their BS. It would seem more that a WS is lacking something within himself [i'm only talking about MM here, I hesitate to even think about the minefield that's a MW having an affair], and is looking to get that gap filled by someone who isn't yet sick of his ****. That's not love, that's not even self-love, that's a stupid little boy who hasn't been taught how to get a grip, or hasn't the balls to recognise he's got a problem and deal with it appropriately. All this 'love shalt conquer all' blah, is only so much justification for behaving in one of the most reprehensible ways one can. There aren't many more things that can be more devastating to whole families and friend networks than an affair and because of that I can only believe that an OW, however much she protests she loves her position (or positions if she likes experimenting), has little love for herself, never mind an MM.
Brokenlady Posted April 5, 2010 Posted April 5, 2010 Eventually she'll move on to wanting to punch her dad. And then her mom. Its the way of these things. I would be sad for her too. She has much more adjusting to do. Yeah, there's so much I could say here, but she has good reason to be angry with both of them. They both handled the whole thing terribly. (Not that I did any better, but they are her parents). She was a very angry kid even before the A came to light. Everything that's happened since just made it worse. I worry for her. I don't live by that as taught, but I get her still wanting him even though you two were engaged. That, and she might be following a popular website's advice to keep trying to get the marriage back up until they actually remarry or for about two years (whichever comes first). I wouldn't be surprised if her interest wanes sharply in the next year. Quite possibly she is. But it's already been almost 2 years. I really think she'll pursue him forever...or at least until she's sure I'm with someone else. It's really an ego thing with her I think. In her mind, she "lost" and I "won" because he chose me (albeit very wishy washy). I can't imagine why she would continue to want him back having gotten her revenge on you, either though. I would just as soon be happy that the marriage was (possibly only temporarily) thwarted, and then move on not wanting him myself either. Over the weekend I heard that her boytoy left her. Probably smelled the psychotic hangup with her xH. But I'm guessing that has something to do with it.
Snowflower Posted April 5, 2010 Posted April 5, 2010 I get what you're saying here and I think I agree with it. I have had a hard time figuring out what 'forgiveness' really means--especially in the aftermath of my H's affair. As close as I can come to understanding it at this time means... Forgiveness = Acceptance And to clarify, acceptance meaning hey, this happened, now move on from it. My problem is that I really thought I had forgiven my husband quite some time ago. But lately, I'm beginning to think that I haven't. Yes, he has been extremely remorseful and to the best of my knowledge (which is only what anyone can do at any given time) I truly do not believe he will repeat his bad choice. He has been a very good husband since we reconciled nearly 1.5 years ago. But back to my confusion, I thought I had forgiven my H but I still haven't 'accepted' what he has done. I'm beginning to think I will never be able to accept what he has done. I'm getting worried! Can I ask something very personal of you Snowflower? Do you feel you have compromised your beliefs and/or values in any way by reconciling with him. I'm multi-quoting my own post, how weird! I think my forgiving=acceptance statement is being misunderstood...even though I tried to clarify it earlier in this thread. When I say 'acceptance' it means (to me anyway) that I have to somehow learn to 'accept' that my husband was unfaithful. I have to reconcile the fact that this terrible event happened in my life and learn to live with it--no matter what ultimately happens to my marriage. I haven't done this yet and while I have forgiven my H I haven't accepted the fact that this has happened to me. My H and I did reconcile...he was extremely remorseful, agreed to complete transparency (even to this day), loving, now the perfect husband, etc. Do I believe I compromised any of my own values/beliefs in staying with my H...good question, but no. I think it is much more difficult to stay in with someone who has hurt you so badly than to leave outright. Did I go through a period of questioning why I was staying with him? Sure, I did. For months I wondered if I had done/was doing the right thing. I think that is healthy. I knew that I always had the option to leave if I changed my mind. I still have this option.
Author turnstone Posted April 6, 2010 Author Posted April 6, 2010 Do I believe I compromised any of my own values/beliefs in staying with my H...good question, but no. I think it is much more difficult to stay in with someone who has hurt you so badly than to leave outright. I disagree. The vast majority of women appear to not have high enough self-esteem to leave and that for them, makes staying the easier option. Not that it's 'easy', but certainly far less frightening for someone with poor self-worth, than getting out. As far as values go, I would have had to compromise mine to stay with my ex H, and that would have eroded my identity too much, hence my leaving. I'm glad that you haven't had to do that, it must say a lot about your marriage. Did I go through a period of questioning why I was staying with him? Sure, I did. For months I wondered if I had done/was doing the right thing. I think that is healthy. I knew that I always had the option to leave if I changed my mind. I still have this option. Divorce is an option for anyone at anytime, you don't need to go through an affair to exercise it.
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