turnstone Posted March 31, 2010 Posted March 31, 2010 Or is it? My story started here, went from that to this (with a few in-betweens, you can always check my profile if you want the other stuff. Oh, and that last thread, please don't make the mistake that a few others did, I'm an ex BS, not an OW, not a WS) and now finally, clean, clear and out of the country with a new house, new car and two cats, I feel better than ever. But. I haven't forgiven my ex H, his OW (that knew he was married) and nor do I intend to. Now this appears to be having precisely zero effect on my well-being; physically, mentally or emotionally, but as a lot of people on LS appear to feel that not forgiving should have a negative effect, I want to examine what forgiveness actually means and who, exactly benefits from it. My definition of forgiveness coincides with at least one dictionary definition: "1. to grant pardon for or remission of (an offense, debt, etc.); absolve. 2. to give up all claim on account of; remit (a debt, obligation, etc.). 3. to grant pardon to (a person). 4. to cease to feel resentment against: to forgive one's enemies. 5. to cancel an indebtedness or liability of." I know the ex H will never change and I know that if I let him back into my life, he would continue as before. And that's the point. I can only forgive someone when I know they will consciously never wrong me again, and its only those that I still care about after they've hurt me (and who care about me as importantly), who can show me they deserve forgiveness. Anyone else isn't going to get the chance because by giving them the chance allows them to do the same thing again and I just don't trust anyone I don't love and I don't love anyone who doesn't love me. And breathe! Sorry, that was a bit of a mental vomit. Anyway, I'd advocate not forgiving, for me its been good. I'd be interested to read other's opinions on my mind puke
freestyle Posted March 31, 2010 Posted March 31, 2010 Your "mind puke" made for an interesting read for me. Forgiveness is a subject that I've been pondering and debating internally for awhile now. I have to say, I'm inclined to agree with your take on things. Once I have been grievously wronged by someone,I can't get past it, if that individual shows no remorse. I wonder if it's because I hold myself to high standards.........and unrealistically expect that others would naturally be the same.Perhaps that has made me too quick to trust in the past. Much like you, I've finally figured out that I need to make people earn my trust, first. Kind of a bitter pill. It seems to be a fine line........I can see how harboring too much resentment can be damaging.......... .....but I can also see how forgiving too quickly would make me feel like a doormat. As far as who benefits from forgiveness, everything that I've heard and read says that it's really for the benefit of the injured party. But I've had that backfire on me, in the past, and recently. I tried to be the bigger, better person when someone offered me an olive branch after they wronged me. I acepted the branch......only to get burned again.I guess that's where the trust factor comes in..... Perhaps you can forgive someone, but that doesn't mean you have to trust them again, once they've breached that trust.
bentnotbroken Posted March 31, 2010 Posted March 31, 2010 I'd spent my entire life not forgiving before the A. It added to the already paranoid existence I lived. I was of the tribe..."don't get mad, get even" and it was killing me. I also believed it added to the marital conflict prior to the A. For me it was a matter of life and death. Then I started to have a relationship with God and I began to understand that I was forgiven. For all the wrongs I had done to Him and all the wrongs I had done to others. If he doesn't forgive me because he knows "I will" sin again, then I am up shyt creek without a paddle. Just my take.
PhoenixRise Posted March 31, 2010 Posted March 31, 2010 I have been burned many times in the name of forgiveness. Now I don't think forgiveness means acceptance of the behavior. I don't think forgiveness necessarily means continuation of any type of relationship with the transgressor. Forgiveness just means that I am choosing to redirect my energy and that I am (probably) not going to be watching and waiting for an opportunity pay you back.
realworldexplorer Posted March 31, 2010 Posted March 31, 2010 Forgiveness is something you do for yourself, it is a release of the bitterness asociated with an unfair and grievous injury. I can accept that on an intellectual level to try and take care of my own self, but on an emotional level it is a slow process that has to burn for a very long time. Time will increase the chance of success. My greatest challenge thus far in life has been to release the rage that I have for an OM that decieved me while I was totally honest and up front with him. I was duped, but my MO has always been to assume the best about people until proven otherwise. I am definitely less trusting now which is a very sad thing, as that loss of innocence is not something that came about by my own actions. The other person has put a lot of the weight of his horrid personality and behaviour on my shoulders. I had a much better world view prior to the discovery of how low some people will go in their sickness. Being victimized by self absorbed people is like being in a bad car crash caused by a drunk driver that causes innocent people great trauma and suffering. The only way around the injustice and pain is to develop acceptance for things as they are and to develop love and caring for self. I lead a sort of "charmed" life prior to my suffering but their was no real growth or understanding of how things really work, through pain can come real growth and wisdom. My W is very remorsefull and I am having an easier time forgiving her (slowly over years) because she is experiencing rapid spiritual and intellectual growth from the suffering she has caused others. I would much rather be on this side of the growth thank you. People will always let you down, you can only accept that and try and love them anyway by trying to be true to yourself and by maintaining your countenance in an unjust world. Releasing the bitterness of hate from your broken heart is very very difficult when your marriage is destroyed by infidelity. I have known nothing worse. The options are to move toward peace or stay in the agony forever. Support for this has to come from self as most people do not understand what it is like.
aeh Posted March 31, 2010 Posted March 31, 2010 I have been burned many times in the name of forgiveness. Now I don't think forgiveness means acceptance of the behavior. I don't think forgiveness necessarily means continuation of any type of relationship with the transgressor. Forgiveness just means that I am choosing to redirect my energy and that I am (probably) not going to be watching and waiting for an opportunity pay you back. This is excellent. I agree wholeheartedly with this. This is how it is for me, too. It took me a looon time to even be able to SAY the word "forgiveness". It made me angry to even discuss the concept--as if I was saying what he did was okay somehow. Now, I have come to the point where I realize I was the one suffering the most. And it is all about redirecting my energy which was completely focused on the wrongs and on paying him back. I thought I would never ever forgive him. Guess I have. I'm in such a better place now that I have, but I was hell-bent on not giving him the satisfaction of having my forgiveness
Snowflower Posted March 31, 2010 Posted March 31, 2010 (edited) I know the ex H will never change and I know that if I let him back into my life, he would continue as before. And that's the point. I can only forgive someone when I know they will consciously never wrong me again, and its only those that I still care about after they've hurt me (and who care about me as importantly), who can show me they deserve forgiveness. Anyone else isn't going to get the chance because by giving them the chance allows them to do the same thing again and I just don't trust anyone I don't love and I don't love anyone who doesn't love me. I get what you're saying here and I think I agree with it. I have had a hard time figuring out what 'forgiveness' really means--especially in the aftermath of my H's affair. As close as I can come to understanding it at this time means... Forgiveness = Acceptance And to clarify, acceptance meaning hey, this happened, now move on from it. My problem is that I really thought I had forgiven my husband quite some time ago. But lately, I'm beginning to think that I haven't. Yes, he has been extremely remorseful and to the best of my knowledge (which is only what anyone can do at any given time) I truly do not believe he will repeat his bad choice. He has been a very good husband since we reconciled nearly 1.5 years ago. But back to my confusion, I thought I had forgiven my H but I still haven't 'accepted' what he has done. I'm beginning to think I will never be able to accept what he has done. I'm getting worried! Edited March 31, 2010 by Snowflower
califnan Posted March 31, 2010 Posted March 31, 2010 Or is it? My story started here, went from that to this (with a few in-betweens, you can always check my profile if you want the other stuff. Oh, and that last thread, please don't make the mistake that a few others did, I'm an ex BS, not an OW, not a WS) and now finally, clean, clear and out of the country with a new house, new car and two cats, I feel better than ever. But. I haven't forgiven my ex H, his OW (that knew he was married) and nor do I intend to. Now this appears to be having precisely zero effect on my well-being; physically, mentally or emotionally, but as a lot of people on LS appear to feel that not forgiving should have a negative effect, I want to examine what forgiveness actually means and who, exactly benefits from it. My definition of forgiveness coincides with at least one dictionary definition: "1. to grant pardon for or remission of (an offense, debt, etc.); absolve. 2. to give up all claim on account of; remit (a debt, obligation, etc.). 3. to grant pardon to (a person). 4. to cease to feel resentment against: to forgive one's enemies. 5. to cancel an indebtedness or liability of." I know the ex H will never change and I know that if I let him back into my life, he would continue as before. And that's the point. I can only forgive someone when I know they will consciously never wrong me again, and its only those that I still care about after they've hurt me (and who care about me as importantly), who can show me they deserve forgiveness. Anyone else isn't going to get the chance because by giving them the chance allows them to do the same thing again and I just don't trust anyone I don't love and I don't love anyone who doesn't love me. And breathe! Sorry, that was a bit of a mental vomit. Anyway, I'd advocate not forgiving, for me its been good. I'd be interested to read other's opinions on my mind puke -------------------- Mostly you are just on your guard.. He can't do the same things to you again - because he no longer has the Authority .. He could only hurt you (big time) when he was your husband, best friend (one flesh) .. A devastating slash .. It could be said that as long as he is free (alive) .. you can be affected by the flaunt of the sin. But just remember the Truth in the saying: The grass is always greener on the other side! I remember after my divorce .. those two had gotten Everything that they wanted! They had each other (What could be Better than That!!).. They had me out of my house (A True Accomplishment, because of all of the later discovered fraud in the divorce settlement) .. But with all of their Great territory Gained: Why did they wish to constantly bad mouth me to my sons when they were up there visiting them - doesn't sound like true happiness to me .. As I have said: The grass is always greener .......
realworldexplorer Posted March 31, 2010 Posted March 31, 2010 I get what you're saying here and I think I agree with it. I have had a hard time figuring out what 'forgiveness' really means--especially in the aftermath of my H's affair. As close as I can come to understanding it at this time means... Forgiveness = Acceptance And to clarify, acceptance meaning hey, this happened, now move on from it. My problem is that I really thought I had forgiven my husband quite some time ago. But lately, I'm beginning to think that I haven't. Yes, he has been extremely remorseful and to the best of my knowledge (which is only what anyone can do at any given time) I truly do not believe he will repeat his bad choice. He has been a very good husband since we reconciled nearly 1.5 years ago. But back to my confusion, I thought I had forgiven my H but I still haven't 'accepted' what he has done. I'm beginning to think I will never be able to accept what he has done. I'm getting worried! You will never, nor should you ever, accept what he has done. You will only accept that it happened, and move on.
Chess Game Posted March 31, 2010 Posted March 31, 2010 In the Christian sense, forgiveness is not expected if there is not repentance. I'm not sure if it's even really possible. Acceptance or indifference is about the best we can do. I'm no bible thumper but let me thump a little anyway. I am a Christian but I'm not trying to convert anybody here or expect you to live this way. No matter what you believe, there is a lot of wisdom in the bible and it does give something to think about. Here is what Luke said on the subject: Luke 17:3-4 [FONT=Arial][COLOR=#400000]Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day returns to you, saying, 'I repent,' you shall forgive him.[/COLOR][/FONT]
califnan Posted March 31, 2010 Posted March 31, 2010 In the Christian sense, forgiveness is not expected if there is not repentance. I'm not sure if it's even really possible. Acceptance or indifference is about the best we can do. I'm no bible thumper but let me thump a little anyway. I am a Christian but I'm not trying to convert anybody here or expect you to live this way. No matter what you believe, there is a lot of wisdom in the bible and it does give something to think about. Here is what Luke said on the subject: Luke 17:3-4 [FONT=Arial][COLOR=#400000]Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day returns to you, saying, 'I repent,' you shall forgive him.[/COLOR][/FONT] ---------------------- Absolutely. God's word teaches to turn the other cheek .. But it is so much easier to forgive, when there is repentance.. And mostly, I have taken responsibility for the adverse things that I have allowed to happen in my life..
Dexter Morgan Posted March 31, 2010 Posted March 31, 2010 I guess I'm confused...where is the "DANGER" in not forgiving them?
seren Posted April 1, 2010 Posted April 1, 2010 I thought I had forgiven H on D day, I felt such sympathy for his hurt and obvious distress at what his actions had caused that my initial reaction was to offer him comfort and put my hurt on the back boiler. I spent so much time in the first few days making sure he was OK I forgot to look at my hurt. It was because I accepted that I had missed that he was stressed about his job and experiences (military, my illness) which led up to the A taking place. It was the beginning of transferring the blame for the A on me and so I was caught up in blaming me for the A and not putting it in order - as in me contributing to the M being messed up. I had a hard time forgiving myself. This all caught up with us some months later when I had a major blow up, what came out then was me blaming him for hurting me and for blowing my trust and belief in love, marriage, people out of the water. I still maintained that I forgave him for the A, but not for hurting me, us our marriage. I don't quite know what forgiveness truly means, I think that if I hadn't forgiven the A then we couldn't be where we are today. H says he will never forgive himself for what he has done to me and his guilt is still obvious. I wish he would forgive himself, it is sometimes a hard thing to watch. This thread is interesting, I suppose for H, he needs to forgive himself to feel whole and a good person. I would still maintain I have forgiven H, but I really haven't forgotten and obviously never will. It is making me question if I have really forgiven the A and if I haven't if it is really necessary as we are in a very good place now, better than before the A. if I haven't then I need to work on it as it can only be destructive. Hmm very thought provoking.
Spark1111 Posted April 1, 2010 Posted April 1, 2010 I think you forgive that it happened to YOU; that is wasn't your fault; you did not cause it; that it had nothing to do with your and your actions; and could not prevent it. I think it releases you from a life time of blame, self-pity, low self-esteem, and believing something was so wrong with you that your spouse had an affair. You will never forget it, or accept it, or many cannot even forgive the betrayer.... But you forgive yourself, that this happened in YOUR life, and you pick yourself up and you move on, putting your best foot in front of the other.
SueBee3490 Posted April 1, 2010 Posted April 1, 2010 I think you forgive that it happened to YOU; that is wasn't your fault; you did not cause it; that it had nothing to do with your and your actions; and could not prevent it. I think it releases you from a life time of blame, self-pity, low self-esteem, and believing something was so wrong with you that your spouse had an affair. You will never forget it, or accept it, or many cannot even forgive the betrayer.... But you forgive yourself, that this happened in YOUR life, and you pick yourself up and you move on, putting your best foot in front of the other. I never thought of it that way spark -thanks! I always thought anytime "forgiveness" was spoken of - it was to forgive the cheater. I feel I can't do it now. I did forgive once when I found out but then he swore he only did it once and wouldn't do it anymore. But he continued cheating so I don't feel the need to forgive him again. I'm trying to forgive myself for being so trusting, etc. I feel the tremendous pressure to forgive him yet again. He seems genuinely sorry - but he also acted sorry the first time around when I forgave him. I just won't be fooled again. Fool me once, shame on you - fool me twice - shame on me.
ADF Posted April 1, 2010 Posted April 1, 2010 I think we have been way oversold on the power of forgiveness. Sometimes forgiving the trangressions of others is appropriate. But often, it just leaves us feelings humiliated. Being a good person does not require being "nice" all the time. We are under no obligation to forgive people who scorn us. Forgiveness is a gift, not an obligation. If someone horribly mistreats you, and what you need is to hate that person's guts, to never want to lay eyes on them again, so be it. Good for you.
Woggle Posted April 1, 2010 Posted April 1, 2010 It's not that I forgive but I leave it to the universe to pay people back instead of me wasting my energy on it.
Snowflower Posted April 1, 2010 Posted April 1, 2010 You will never, nor should you ever, accept what he has done. You will only accept that it happened, and move on. I liked your earlier post on this thread, by the way! It describes a lot of what I am feeling. Oh no, I will never 'accept' what he has done. I only can accept that it happened. And I'm having a difficult time with accepting that it happened.
wheelwright Posted April 2, 2010 Posted April 2, 2010 I find the thoughts in this thread difficult. Someone in your life really wanted to be with someone else, and didn't want to tell you because it would hurt you. And they had reasons - they wanted to connect with someone else at that moment. Would you really deny another human being that right? Why should BSs stop that happening? Why are they so hurt? It is deceit and fear of abandonment that steer the unforgiveness. And the deceit - well we are all hypocrites here. Who (western posters only) hasn't been complicit in the Santa myth? Deceit is part of life. I feel it is the societally induced hurt that is the problem, not the infidelity. I think it is part of the beauty and hurt of love relationships. Without tests we wouldn't know. I hate deceit - I recently told my kid that the Easter Bunny doesn't exist - it felt wrong. We are still in complicit ignorance about Christmas. I am not saying this as my only thoughts - I feel deeply unhappy now that I caused my H so much pain. But that is because I don't like deceit or causing others unhappiness. I would certainly have done what I did again if it didn't cause those culturally imposed elements. I am saying this because I think what you say on this subject of forgiveness depends on your ego, your thoughts about soul, and your willingness to let other people live a life in the face of your own hurt. And if someone cares about you, but doesn't have your interests at heart, why then it is not about forgiveness. It is about letting go. And if you did ever care about them and not just yourself, you would let them go lightly. If you know what I mean?!!
bentnotbroken Posted April 2, 2010 Posted April 2, 2010 I find the thoughts in this thread difficult. Someone in your life really wanted to be with someone else, and didn't want to tell you because it would hurt you. And they had reasons - they wanted to connect with someone else at that moment. Would you really deny another human being that right? Why should BSs stop that happening? Why are they so hurt? It is deceit and fear of abandonment that steer the unforgiveness. And the deceit - well we are all hypocrites here. Who (western posters only) hasn't been complicit in the Santa myth? Deceit is part of life. I feel it is the societally induced hurt that is the problem, not the infidelity. I think it is part of the beauty and hurt of love relationships. Without tests we wouldn't know. I hate deceit - I recently told my kid that the Easter Bunny doesn't exist - it felt wrong. We are still in complicit ignorance about Christmas. I am not saying this as my only thoughts - I feel deeply unhappy now that I caused my H so much pain. But that is because I don't like deceit or causing others unhappiness. I would certainly have done what I did again if it didn't cause those culturally imposed elements. I am saying this because I think what you say on this subject of forgiveness depends on your ego, your thoughts about soul, and your willingness to let other people live a life in the face of your own hurt. And if someone cares about you, but doesn't have your interests at heart, why then it is not about forgiveness. It is about letting go. And if you did ever care about them and not just yourself, you would let them go lightly. If you know what I mean?!! Yes I do know what you mean. I am very clear about what you mean. Your assumption that we all tell our children about Santa and the Easter bunny translates to deceiving, gas lighting, exposure to STD's, crazy ow(speaking only for my situation) defiling of my home, stalking my children and on and on. Most WS have no problem with hurting the BS, what do they think the gas lighting is doing? What do they think that bringing someone into the BS without their permission will do if it doesn't hurt them. Society didn't wag his weeny in someone else in my bed. Some of us do believe in the institution, contract, covenant...whatever you want to call it of marriage. I could care less how most people view it. I was hurt by the infidelity, not society. His betrayal was the cause of my hurt, not societies definition of marriage. I thought that when we married in the eyes of God, we both believed the same thing, clearly I was wrong, but it didn't change my beliefs. I find it strange that you speak of being willing to let others live life in spite of the pain, where was the willingness for the BS to make a choice about their lives before the pain of infidelity was inflicted? They don't tell for self preservation, lack of respect, cake eating, disrespect, azz coverage and just plain old anger. If it makes you feel better to think that way....by all means do that. But to assume that is what goes through the minds of most cheating, lying, "let me make you doubt your own sanity, your own thoughts, and feelings", is done because they wish to save the BS from pain is noble......NOT.
wheelwright Posted April 2, 2010 Posted April 2, 2010 Yes I do know what you mean. I am very clear about what you mean. Your assumption that we all tell our children about Santa and the Easter bunny translates to deceiving, gas lighting, exposure to STD's, crazy ow(speaking only for my situation) defiling of my home, stalking my children and on and on. Most WS have no problem with hurting the BS, what do they think the gas lighting is doing? What do they think that bringing someone into the BS without their permission will do if it doesn't hurt them. Society didn't wag his weeny in someone else in my bed. Some of us do believe in the institution, contract, covenant...whatever you want to call it of marriage. I could care less how most people view it. I was hurt by the infidelity, not society. His betrayal was the cause of my hurt, not societies definition of marriage. I thought that when we married in the eyes of God, we both believed the same thing, clearly I was wrong, but it didn't change my beliefs. I find it strange that you speak of being willing to let others live life in spite of the pain, where was the willingness for the BS to make a choice about their lives before the pain of infidelity was inflicted? They don't tell for self preservation, lack of respect, cake eating, disrespect, azz coverage and just plain old anger. If it makes you feel better to think that way....by all means do that. But to assume that is what goes through the minds of most cheating, lying, "let me make you doubt your own sanity, your own thoughts, and feelings", is done because they wish to save the BS from pain is noble......NOT. Santa is gaslighting too. It's just we like it, and expect our kids to. I never said noble. Noble would be an entire other thing - and in the remit of this thread, I wonder if you think noble would be falling in love with a MP and saying nothing and keeping the mutual flame under wraps - noble. It might be, I'm not sure though. I kind of believe in the covenant you speak of. But I also know that not every promise should be kept - if you promise to kill and then rescind, I'd be in favour. We can't always know which promises are right in advance. Promises are full of hope. That's the beauty and pity of M. I repeat, the gaslighting only hurts because that particular deceit is hurtful because we are brought up with the fairytale myth. And yes, we learn at that very early age that gaslightling can be for the greater good - where are we supposed to go with this? We are told from day one that gaslighting is a wonderful thing meant to enhance the lives of others. We want to make others feel good, more than we want to tell them the truth.
bentnotbroken Posted April 2, 2010 Posted April 2, 2010 Santa is gaslighting too. It's just we like it, and expect our kids to. I never said noble. Noble would be an entire other thing - and in the remit of this thread, I wonder if you think noble would be falling in love with a MP and saying nothing and keeping the mutual flame under wraps - noble. It might be, I'm not sure though. I kind of believe in the covenant you speak of. But I also know that not every promise should be kept - if you promise to kill and then rescind, I'd be in favour. We can't always know which promises are right in advance. Promises are full of hope. That's the beauty and pity of M. I repeat, the gaslighting only hurts because that particular deceit is hurtful because we are brought up with the fairytale myth. And yes, we learn at that very early age that gaslightling can be for the greater good - where are we supposed to go with this? We are told from day one that gaslighting is a wonderful thing meant to enhance the lives of others. We want to make others feel good, more than we want to tell them the truth. I don't believe in fairytales. Never have. Mainly because I grew up poor and there was never a knight in shining armor waitig to take me away and all the girls in those tales were white. Didn't figure that applied to me at all, but that is another story for another day. Yes I believe in the "myth" of marriage. The covenant that isn't just between a man and a woman but between them and God. The promise, the commitment was made to more than the 2 involved. Yes, I am aware that most people don't view the world that way, and I am good with that. But to completely discount the fact that what you call gaslighting(santa and the easter bunny)you equate to having one's sanity tested. There faith and belief in their own judgement is something that I can't understand. Even if you truly believe that deep down, how do you account for the cruel things that are said and done to the BS. How do you account for the exposure to STD's or the invitation for someone to enter the BS without their knowledge in most cases. I never learned at a young age to destroy some one's self esteem, self respect or dignity all products of gaslighting. If their is any nobility in cheating it would be in telling the truth and allowing the BS the opportunity to heal, find someone new or cheat themselves. And just for the record the gaslighting helped push me closer to suicide. The gaslighting made me feel as if I was a horrible mother and I had nothing to offer anyone. I appreciate your comparison to that of someone telling a child about santa, but I view it(and I would suspect most BS)as a little bit more than that.
PhoenixRise Posted April 2, 2010 Posted April 2, 2010 Santa is gaslighting too. It's just we like it, and expect our kids to. I repeat, the gaslighting only hurts because that particular deceit is hurtful because we are brought up with the fairytale myth. And yes, we learn at that very early age that gaslightling can be for the greater good - where are we supposed to go with this? We are told from day one that gaslighting is a wonderful thing meant to enhance the lives of others. We want to make others feel good, more than we want to tell them the truth. Wrong. Gaslighting hurts not because of some myth people are brought up with. Gaslighting hurts because someone you trust to tell you the truth and to have your back if need be is twisting reality into a pretzel and using the knowledge of your trust and love to convince you that up is down. You can say all you want about societies imposed limits and why would a BS want to limit love and not want their spouse to have the love they want and desire.....but you are, purposely I think, leaving out the responsibility of the WS to be open about what they feel, think and desire. If WS had the courage to be honest forgiveness would not be such an issue. If you don't believe in monogamy, if you believe that one should be able to have sex with/love others while maintaining a marriage, then have the balls to say so openly. Don't preach about society's imposed limitations, and the lying for the greater good of not hurting the spouse if you aren't willing to live your truth out loud and allow your spouse to decide their own life based on the facts. You don't get build a pretend life with a person, based on principals you convince them you have, lie to them to keep them believing you are on the same page with them while you sneak around behind their back to betray them. NOTHING about this is for the spouses benefit. It is completely self serving. A way for the WS to have a foot in both boats while keeping someone else confined to one boat.
PhoenixRise Posted April 2, 2010 Posted April 2, 2010 And BTW Comparing the gaslighting that happens to the BS during an affair to a child believing in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny is highly insulting. One makes you think you are literally losing your mind. The other makes you too excited to sleep on Christmas Eve. They don't even compare.
NoIDidn't Posted April 2, 2010 Posted April 2, 2010 I find the thoughts in this thread difficult. Someone in your life really wanted to be with someone else, and didn't want to tell you because it would hurt you. And they had reasons - they wanted to connect with someone else at that moment. Would you really deny another human being that right? Why should BSs stop that happening? Why are they so hurt? It is deceit and fear of abandonment that steer the unforgiveness. And the deceit - well we are all hypocrites here. Who (western posters only) hasn't been complicit in the Santa myth? Deceit is part of life. I feel it is the societally induced hurt that is the problem, not the infidelity. I think it is part of the beauty and hurt of love relationships. Without tests we wouldn't know. I hate deceit - I recently told my kid that the Easter Bunny doesn't exist - it felt wrong. We are still in complicit ignorance about Christmas. I am not saying this as my only thoughts - I feel deeply unhappy now that I caused my H so much pain. But that is because I don't like deceit or causing others unhappiness. I would certainly have done what I did again if it didn't cause those culturally imposed elements. I am saying this because I think what you say on this subject of forgiveness depends on your ego, your thoughts about soul, and your willingness to let other people live a life in the face of your own hurt. And if someone cares about you, but doesn't have your interests at heart, why then it is not about forgiveness. It is about letting go. And if you did ever care about them and not just yourself, you would let them go lightly. If you know what I mean?!! Wow. I actually found this post pretty disturbing. Aside from the pretzel my brain becomes in trying to see how things are so twisted in it (Santa Claus is gaslighting???!!!! - and no I never told my kids this garbage, but I would never tell someone they were gaslighting their kids for doing so - WOW), it comes off as blaming the BS for having the nerve to be hurt and angry and taking time to forgive because the cheater didn't have to have their interests at heart. Sounds like the person deploying this logic is saying that they get to care about themselves and what they want, but others are not allowed the same consideration. Everything is about what the cheater wants, no consideration for the well-being of the betrayed.
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