Is the "married"/attached Part the Actual Attractive Quality?

[pureinheart]

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Pure ... I am so so sorry for your situation. I pray that this cad (player) maintains enough of a good job situation to take care of his Responsibilities!!

 

It is not fair that mothers must be put in position as to going to court, keeping track of jobs, bank accounts, and the DA . .. for the sake of keeping these men ontop of their responsibilities ..

 

take care

 

LOL CN, I was angry because his new exW was after him for child support after she had forbid him to pay me child support and had also forbid him to see our daughter...thanks CN, I was very angry that week...

 

Sorry for the tj NID...I was reading your thread during my rant

[White Flower]

Yet, I know her story and I know she won't defend herself (because she doesn't need to) but I DO enjoy reminding those who throw stones at her about the FACTS, at least, as I remember them.

Actually, since I've been a resident here at LS for quite some time I have gotten to know many people's life stories. I defend them too. When I defend BW whose stories I know well, I don't seem to get poked as much. I wonder why that is?

[NoIDidn't]

No it's not - but that (what I "could come up with") would be more appropriate on that person's thread - not here, as an abstract discussion of the potential learnings from that situation.

 

Which was actually my point - I was asking Califnan why she was pushing OWs to look at that particular thread. To my mind, it illustrated many of the stereotypes that WSs (allegedly - I have no first-hand knowledge of this; I'm merely going by what's claimed here at LS) put out about the BW. Which is why it struck me as odd that Califnan should choose that thread to point OWs to.

 

Perhaps Califnan could explain her motivation for doing so, or perhaps someone else could try to guess what she may have intended, but as a fOW who read that thread, I really didn't get the point of the referral.

 

 

 

Posting an analytical assessment on another thread about the dynamic revealed elsewhere is IMO a lot less heartless than posting ON THE THREAD of someone seeking support, telling them they're evil, broken, deserve what they get, or whatever other kind of bashing seems de rigeur here. This thread is not for support, it's for discussion - or did that suddenly change?

 

Of course this thread is still for discussion. And I still think your posting such about a poster in pain is in poor taste. I feel the same when its done in this forum. But that's not what this thread is about.

 

Califnan was clear on why she referred OWs to that thread. And, unlike you, some OWs might very well have felt sorry for the BW and considered that the BW in their case might be feeling the same way.

 

Regardless, you are entitled to your opinion of the OP. And I am entitled to continue to feel posting it, even in this thread, was insensitive.

[silktricks]

1. I agree but I also think it is perception of the beholder. The OP may feel they are the primary, the BS thinks they are the primary but really how much of that matters? In either case it may be true but it does not explain or dictate what the WP is doing and why they are doing it.

How much does it matter? I suppose that depends :lmao: The thing is, that when a BS posts that only love in a marriage is real, and that anything else is much less, understandably OW can get fairly PO'd about what is said. However, often times, those same OW will write a post that states that only affair love is true, and that any MP who then returns to his/her spouse is settling for something less... and they don't understand at all how this is just as ridiculous as is the prior statement by BS...

 

So, it matters not because it resolves anything in real life, but because this is primarily a site to help people. If the people on this site never make any attempt to understand opposing points of view, then they are missing out on much of the value of coming here.

 

2. I can't argue your point on settling. It is definitely a case by case basis, I just think the scenerio you described is sorely in the minority. Unfortunately there is very little black and white behaviour. Usually just a lot of waffling in the middle. And, to be honest, that is where I have trouble understanding even my sMM. I left after a few weeks. While I understood his fears, they are just that, fears, and does not excuse fence sitting. Unfortunately fear of the unknown and just laziness seems to be the prevailing reasons for most of human action.

Ahhhh - sorely in the minority... according to whom?? Many people have pointed out that married people often do not air their "dirty laundry"... whether that dirty laundry is that their relationship started as an affair OR that their marriage has endured an affair.... BUT, if you believe the oft quoted statistics, that in the U.S. some 80% of men have cheated, and that 50% of marriage end in divorce, then you've also got about 30% of marriages that have recovered in some form. You basically are saying that only a very small minority of those recovered marriages have truly recovered. I don't buy it. People have a really low tolerance over time for misery. Also, even here on LS, there are a number of people such as myself who have a fully recovered marriage. It took a LOT of work on the part of both of us, and believe me neither of us "settled".

 

Of course there is the "fence sitting" behavior, but one person's fence may be another person's decision. In other words, not making a choice is also a choice... and often is made because they really don't want one or the other, they want both. .

 

3. My last point is really why I think cheating is an interesting human action. The cheating gets so much of the focus but looking at the underlying reasons is really the crux of it. Why one chooses that is the most important question. That is something I pondered and reflected on a lot in my own case. How and why did I get to that point, what need did it fill, why did I decide that is the "best" option, and if I don't like it as a coping mechanism, what do I need to address to put in another one in its place.

Cheating is truly a rotten coping mechanism because often it damages our own opinion of ourselves. For years after I did it I couldn't even look at myself in the mirror. It is, as you say important to understand what's going on within you that would lead to making the choice. For me it was a number of things, but primarily it was that I was carrying a bucket load of anger. Instead of dealing with the anger and all of the causes of it, I hurt the person who was in my life at that time - not even the person who had actually caused the anger in the first place.... very unhealthy, and very cruel as well. It took me a long time to forgive myself for it.

[Got it]

How much does it matter? I suppose that depends :lmao: The thing is, that when a BS posts that only love in a marriage is real, and that anything else is much less, understandably OW can get fairly PO'd about what is said. However, often times, those same OW will write a post that states that only affair love is true, and that any MP who then returns to his/her spouse is settling for something less... and they don't understand at all how this is just as ridiculous as is the prior statement by BS...

 

So, it matters not because it resolves anything in real life, but because this is primarily a site to help people. If the people on this site never make any attempt to understand opposing points of view, then they are missing out on much of the value of coming here.

 

Ahhhh - sorely in the minority... according to whom?? Many people have pointed out that married people often do not air their "dirty laundry"... whether that dirty laundry is that their relationship started as an affair OR that their marriage has endured an affair.... BUT, if you believe the oft quoted statistics, that in the U.S. some 80% of men have cheated, and that 50% of marriage end in divorce, then you've also got about 30% of marriages that have recovered in some form. You basically are saying that only a very small minority of those recovered marriages have truly recovered. I don't buy it. People have a really low tolerance over time for misery. Also, even here on LS, there are a number of people such as myself who have a fully recovered marriage. It took a LOT of work on the part of both of us, and believe me neither of us "settled".

 

Of course there is the "fence sitting" behavior, but one person's fence may be another person's decision. In other words, not making a choice is also a choice... and often is made because they really don't want one or the other, they want both. .

 

 

Cheating is truly a rotten coping mechanism because often it damages our own opinion of ourselves. For years after I did it I couldn't even look at myself in the mirror. It is, as you say important to understand what's going on within you that would lead to making the choice. For me it was a number of things, but primarily it was that I was carrying a bucket load of anger. Instead of dealing with the anger and all of the causes of it, I hurt the person who was in my life at that time - not even the person who had actually caused the anger in the first place.... very unhealthy, and very cruel as well. It took me a long time to forgive myself for it.

 

Silk - That is exactly what I was saying. Since one can not know with 100% accuracy what the WP is feeling, then which was "real" is a pointless argument. For the BS and the OP the love may have very well been real to both and either/or/neither/both for the WP. And while yes what you stated may be a true scenerio here on LS, I don't understand your point in it. So, yes, some OP may not see the hypocrisy in their statement.

 

It was not to diminish anything here on LS nor to not see the opposing side but to see that an argument of "he loves ME more" is a pointless argument and does not focus on the important pieces.

 

Airing dirty laundry - Not sure what you mean by this or who you are indicating say that marriage persons don't do this. As a previous married person and having many married friends I think people do air their dirty laundry but may not always be in the most effective or healthy manner. For many it becomes noise and nothing more.

 

I disagree, I think people have a very high tolerance for unhappiness. I think may are not happy but are not miserable and thusly just continue to live. Their marriage may not be that rewarding but it is good enough so why rock the boat. That is the slipperly slope as I think it is this point where someone finds themselves suddenly on the brink of an affair and not sure how it happened. It is because there had been no work on the "not good enough" to prevent this slope.

 

I am happy that you guys fully recovered. That is great. I did not say that it didn't happen but I would say that 30%, by percentages, would be just that, the minority. I think have two parties both able to step up and fix not only the issues from the affair but, more importantly, the cracked foundation that helped contribute to the affair is in the minority. People are innately lazy and I think you can see here and on other infidelity sites where one of the parties is not wanting to do the work to actually reconcile but just get over it. That is MUCH more common. For me, the crux of the problem is how easy it is to marry especially in the US. If they would make it as difficult as it is to divorce there would be less marriages and less divorces; and I don't think that is a bad thing. Ideally people know themselves well enough and thier significant others that they walk into the marriage putting everything on the table, have their needs and boundaries firmly in place, and have healthy coping skills and communication styles. How often does that happen? And then, just growth, maturity, and time can change us from who we were 10/20/50 years ago. Some times two people who were suited at 20 are two totally different people 30 years later.

 

Fence sitting - Absolutely it is a decision.

 

I am sorry for the anger you were dealing with and the decisions made based on it. That is sad and frustrating for all parties involved. It is wonderful that you are in a much better spot now with a much healthier relationship with your spouse.

 

I think cheating can damage one's self esteem though I would argue that it was probably already a factor. Just going against the social norms can cause anxiety in oneself as well as not living an authentic life. What cheating is showing, is there was already a discconnect on that authentic life that were not being exhibited in such a vibrant and/or socially unacceptable way.

[silktricks]

It was not to diminish anything here on LS nor to not see the opposing side but to see that an argument of "he loves ME more" is a pointless argument and does not focus on the important pieces.

I absolutely agree, it is a pointless argument. The reason I brought it up at all was because it appeared to me that you were/are of the opinion that once a marriage suffered infidelity the marriage partners would be "settling" to attempt to restore the marriage. That certainly implies the previously stated attitude that only the affair had validity... I think (personally) that it is unhealthy for either a BS or OW to fervently believe that only a person who fits either scenario has a valid relationship.

 

Airing dirty laundry - Not sure what you mean by this or who you are indicating say that marriage persons don't do this. As a previous married person and having many married friends I think people do air their dirty laundry but may not always be in the most effective or healthy manner. For many it becomes noise and nothing more.

Sorry, I don't think I expressed myself well. The point I was attempting to make is that often people do not talk about either how they originally got together, or about infidelity a marriage experienced. Therefore to assume that recovered marriages are "sorely the minority" or to assume that only 3% (I think that's the oft cited percentage) of affair partners subsequently marry is based upon nothing more than speculation.

 

I disagree, I think people have a very high tolerance for unhappiness. I think may are not happy but are not miserable and thusly just continue to live. Their marriage may not be that rewarding but it is good enough so why rock the boat. That is the slipperly slope as I think it is this point where someone finds themselves suddenly on the brink of an affair and not sure how it happened. It is because there had been no work on the "not good enough" to prevent this slope.

True, but you are coming from a different point than I was. I was talking about POST affair. So now, a couple knows what can happen - and assuming the affair was pleasant (and why do it if it wasn't) then at the very least the MP knows that "better" is possible. In that situation, it is my opinion that a marriage will generally either be fixed or be dissolved. It is my opinion that few marriages will continue to limp along painfully.

 

I am happy that you guys fully recovered. That is great. I did not say that it didn't happen but I would say that 30%, by percentages, would be just that, the minority. I think have two parties both able to step up and fix not only the issues from the affair but, more importantly, the cracked foundation that helped contribute to the affair is in the minority.

ahhh difference in wording. There is a difference between saying recovered marriages are in the minority, and recovered marriages are "sorely in the minority". 30% is IMO a really good percentage - especially when probably 99% of people SAY that there is NO WAY they will forgive infidelity - before it happens to them.

 

For me, the crux of the problem is how easy it is to marry especially in the US. If they would make it as difficult as it is to divorce there would be less marriages and less divorces; and I don't think that is a bad thing. Ideally people know themselves well enough and thier significant others that they walk into the marriage putting everything on the table, have their needs and boundaries firmly in place, and have healthy coping skills and communication styles. How often does that happen?

Well, divorce isn't really difficult either. Do I think it would be a good thing to make marriage more difficult? I think it would be a good thing to have pre-marital counseling mandatory. I'm not too sure about the difficult part... have to think on that awhile.

 

And then, just growth, maturity, and time can change us from who we were 10/20/50 years ago. Some times two people who were suited at 20 are two totally different people 30 years later.

This is only true for those people who choose to have a marriage that allows and/or encourages them to grow apart. Sadly, that is the norm in the U.S. I would certainly argue that a healthy marriage would encourage people to grow and develop in the same directions, as that healthy marriage would be nurtured by both. Having a common goal keeps people focused.

 

I think cheating can damage one's self esteem though I would argue that it was probably already a factor. Just going against the social norms can cause anxiety in oneself as well as not living an authentic life. What cheating is showing, is there was already a discconnect on that authentic life that were not being exhibited in such a vibrant and/or socially unacceptable way.

I wouldn't argue that poor self-esteem may already be a factor for many cheaters (not all), however, I believe that lying is damaging to most people. To say that there is already a self-esteem issue at play doesn't IMO negate the vastly increased self-esteem problem that usually arises from cheating. JMO