Spark1111 Posted March 28, 2010 Posted March 28, 2010 Spark, I agree with this but to a point. On the flip side, there are the cases, mine being one, where it had been communicated numerous times but still when I left it was a bit of a surprise. The unhappy partner can communicate it but it doesn't necessarily mean that the other partner "hears" it especially if they have been saying it for years but not making any actions towards changing it themselves. I think we see that in many cases when where a wife leaves and the husband is shocked. She is at wit's end and she is done and for him that is the awakening. Why we see so many discussions about how a woman mourns the relationship while in it and a man mourns it afterwards. In my case I made sure I laid the foundation to say I did/asked/tried x, y, and z. I could not control him and his reaction but for my own peace of mind had to do what I needed to freely walk away. But this did not mean that HE saw it the same way and recognized the signs. But that wasn't something I could control. And trust me, poor communication skills and conflict avoidance is seen by the OP LONG before Dday! GOt it, the walk away wife syndrome is exactly what you are describing and what I have seen so much of lately in my personal life. The men act like they have been gob-smacked when in reality, she has been trying to enact the changes she has needed in the relationship for years! I guess my post had more to do with many MM who step outside of marriage for an affair; they do not communicate HOW unhappy they truly are, in the marriage, themselves, or whatever., but they do BLAME their marital partner for their unhappiness. This distancing begins to take place usually before they crash into their affair partner. And frankly, this distancing hurts. As a BS, I knew something was amiss...just did not understand what. We chalked it up to job stress (new job), but it began a dangerous dynamic of him pushing me away, and then, almost childishly, validating (to himself) 'See. She doesn't really care for me.' Then he crashed into her.
sally4sara Posted March 28, 2010 Posted March 28, 2010 First off, you would be surprised. You may know more than you think and just aren't aware of that aspect of their lives. You do understand that this is just a part of someone's life, right? This in no way defines someone like any other relationship. I too try and make friends with those I admire but I also know that this is just an aspect of them. Are there "OW" that I don't like? Sure. Are their "BS" that I like. Yep a few come to mind! And are there OP/BS that I like? Yep. For me, someone's romantic relationships may show traits that I have an opinion on but usually not. Just as there are many individuals that have relationships/marriages that show signs/aspects that I know I wouldn't agree with but that is just my opinion and no way means that is right for them. In other words, if someone's romantic relationships is the bar you use to judge them as a friend of your's you are selling them and yourself short. One does not necessarily translate into the other. I do not dictate nor expect to set the standard for others. I'm certainly not going to pin a red "A" to someone and march them through town. But I do not make friends with people who exhibit as much a lack of regard for the pain they cause as to go so far as disrupt someone's family. Life is hard enough without knowingly causing pain to others. It has happened that some AP don't know what they got into. I would not hold that against them if they didn't know and bowed out once they discovered the person they were seeing was married. Or if it were something they did at a very young age and had matured past it; changed their perspective. The same is said for someone who was the MP in the affair. Not friend material in my book. Now I'm sure in a social setting I have had a laugh or two with and AP or MP who was/is in an affair I didn't know well...... But poaching is just nasty and cold. I don't see the sense of making friends with nasty, cold people. Male or female. And I have read some of the posts by AP that just boggle my mind. It isn't just a life choice I don't support, it is a mentality I would not find easy to connect with.
OWoman Posted March 28, 2010 Posted March 28, 2010 You are talking about your H's ex, right? It's likely that life had not been kind to her (life with the man that cheated on her), and that is what aged her beyond her years. He "cheated on her" for the last few years of their M only. Before that, he was sexually exclusive with her for decades. I've seen photographs of her throughout. She lost her looks very early on - mostly self-induced (overeating and drinking too much). And, given that she ruled with an iron fist (literally), her "life" was pretty much what she made of it. To the bolded, do you mean that the man has no choice in the matter, married or single? Of course they have a choice! They can accept or decline. My point was that I do the choosing. I don't wait to be chosen. I wouldn't look twice at some man who hit on me. If I hadn't already expressed interest in him, it means I'm not interested, so he shouldn't waste his - and my - time. You are married now, no? What do you think about a new, attractive OW coming along, eyeing your husband (who has a track record), and "getting who she wants"? My H's "track record" holds no fear for me. If I get 30 years of sexual fidelity I'd be more than oversatisfied. I have no fear of OWs hitting on them - sexual exclusivity has never been a flag I've saluted, and should he wish for some variety, I wouldn't be fazed in the slightest. Given our respective track records, though, it's unlikely to be him who gets tempted...
OWoman Posted March 28, 2010 Posted March 28, 2010 At any rate, if he does divorce the wife, the new marriage (out of adultery) isn't blessed, and he will tend to even compare the new marriage with the Original ... etc. ... and wonder why he stuck it out in Hell so long with the x, when the new version is so much better :laugh:
Fallen Angel Posted March 28, 2010 Posted March 28, 2010 ... and wonder why he stuck it out in Hell so long with the x, when the new version is so much better :laugh: LMAOOOOOOOOOOO... thank you for that response, my friend! (I for one am sick of that theory a certain someone keeps spouting about the WS regretting the choice, when I for one know of only two examples of a MM/OW eventual marriage and in both cases they are supremely happy with their choice, the only regret being they didn't make it sooner.)
OWoman Posted March 28, 2010 Posted March 28, 2010 then why don't you get your own man rather than covet another woman 's husband? I have. He's my H now. Yes, you get whoever YOU want, even that man already belonged to other woman People are not possessions who lack agency. A man can choose who he'd rather be with - even if he's already M to someone else. What drives you do this? Love? I don't buy it, because it is NOT love by its nature No, of course I was not driven by love. I have never claimed that to be the case. I was driven by lust. The love bit happened later, at which point we decided we wanted to be together full-time, and made that happen.
White Flower Posted March 28, 2010 Posted March 28, 2010 -------------------- The man belongs to the wife - the wife belongs to the husband.. Each has power of the other's body .. That is one reason why it is sin to covet (or lust) for the one who belongs to another .. You are preaching to the converted (and then unconverted:p). BTDT. In actuality, nobody has the power nor should have the power over anybody's body. It is a myth we like to promise at M but as we see in everyday life gets busted. It is a nice idea....but very unrealistic.
OWoman Posted March 28, 2010 Posted March 28, 2010 I guess my post had more to do with many MM who step outside of marriage for an affair; they do not communicate HOW unhappy they truly are, in the marriage, themselves, or whatever., but they do BLAME their marital partner for their unhappiness. Spark, sometimes they're not aware of how unhappy they truly are... My H was an extreme example of this (he had typical "battered woman syndrome" in that regard) but some of my other fMMs were similar. They assumed they were happy, that everything was fine - because they could tick all the boxes (nice house, right number of kids, good job, etc) and they assumed that the ennui they felt was, well, just some kind of alienation from living in a late capitalist society where everything had a price and nothing a value. However, once they were tempted into an A, their views shifted - they realised that the M wasn't as perfect as they'd imagined, that the low-level depression they'd accepted as "normal" wasn't, and that there was a whole range of potential out there that they'd never thought possible. And so they became less satisfied with their Ms, even leaving them in some cases, less able to carry on living as they had before, inching closer to death one day at a time without actually LIVING. (I'd guess this is the same for many MW too - and for many Hs and Ws who make the discovery not through an A but through some other "life changing" experience...) In my H's case, they'd had a previous separation (prior to him meeting me) and he'd told family that it felt like stopping beating your head against the wall. He hadn't realised how bad it was, until it went away. I think in many cases, it's only when there's something to compare things with that you gain a true sense of their value, positive or negative.
White Flower Posted March 28, 2010 Posted March 28, 2010 Spark, I agree with this but to a point. On the flip side, there are the cases, mine being one, where it had been communicated numerous times but still when I left it was a bit of a surprise. The unhappy partner can communicate it but it doesn't necessarily mean that the other partner "hears" it especially if they have been saying it for years but not making any actions towards changing it themselves. I think we see that in many cases when where a wife leaves and the husband is shocked. She is at wit's end and she is done and for him that is the awakening. Why we see so many discussions about how a woman mourns the relationship while in it and a man mourns it afterwards. In my case I made sure I laid the foundation to say I did/asked/tried x, y, and z. I could not control him and his reaction but for my own peace of mind had to do what I needed to freely walk away. But this did not mean that HE saw it the same way and recognized the signs. But that wasn't something I could control. And trust me, poor communication skills and conflict avoidance is seen by the OP LONG before Dday! It was very like this in my M before I filed for D. I was EXHAUSTED from communicating my unmet needs, my unhappiness, and my warnings that a D would happen if communication was unheard. And a D happened.
OWoman Posted March 28, 2010 Posted March 28, 2010 You are preaching to the converted (and then unconverted:p). BTDT. In actuality, nobody has the power nor should have the power over anybody's body. It is a myth we like to promise at M but as we see in everyday life gets busted. It is a nice idea....but very unrealistic. ... and very dangerous - it leads to the myth that marital rape is a contradiction in terms, that since spouses "own" each other, they have no right to deny the other access to their body. It's as abhorrent as the notion that you can't rape a sex worker (that it's bilking rather than rape). EVERYONE owns their own body, and has the right to share it - or withhold it - as they please. I would be appalled if my H thought I "owned" his body, or that he "owned" mine. If he was offering himself to me out of obligation rather than choice it would be the biggest turn-off imaginable!
White Flower Posted March 28, 2010 Posted March 28, 2010 ... and very dangerous - it leads to the myth that marital rape is a contradiction in terms, that since spouses "own" each other, they have no right to deny the other access to their body. It's as abhorrent as the notion that you can't rape a sex worker (that it's bilking rather than rape). EVERYONE owns their own body, and has the right to share it - or withhold it - as they please. I would be appalled if my H thought I "owned" his body, or that he "owned" mine. If he was offering himself to me out of obligation rather than choice it would be the biggest turn-off imaginable! Amen!
Got it Posted March 28, 2010 Posted March 28, 2010 Spark, sometimes they're not aware of how unhappy they truly are... My H was an extreme example of this (he had typical "battered woman syndrome" in that regard) but some of my other fMMs were similar. They assumed they were happy, that everything was fine - because they could tick all the boxes (nice house, right number of kids, good job, etc) and they assumed that the ennui they felt was, well, just some kind of alienation from living in a late capitalist society where everything had a price and nothing a value. However, once they were tempted into an A, their views shifted - they realised that the M wasn't as perfect as they'd imagined, that the low-level depression they'd accepted as "normal" wasn't, and that there was a whole range of potential out there that they'd never thought possible. And so they became less satisfied with their Ms, even leaving them in some cases, less able to carry on living as they had before, inching closer to death one day at a time without actually LIVING. (I'd guess this is the same for many MW too - and for many Hs and Ws who make the discovery not through an A but through some other "life changing" experience...) In my H's case, they'd had a previous separation (prior to him meeting me) and he'd told family that it felt like stopping beating your head against the wall. He hadn't realised how bad it was, until it went away. I think in many cases, it's only when there's something to compare things with that you gain a true sense of their value, positive or negative. I agree with OWoman. Yes I think women do vocalize things more but I know plenty of men who did try and share their frustrations and needs it it was swept away as being big babies or too demanding. And a lot of men think they need to do x, y, and z and minimize their needs as well. Does that excuse things? No. sMM has a similar separation in his marital history. At that point he went back because they were young and he didn't want his kids to not have both parents in the house and due to his upbringing (his parents divorcing) didn't (want) to believe in divorce. Years later when we crossed path he realized that had been a mistake, things only got worst, his needs being met was nonexistent and he wanted an out. He was planning on divorcing but saw it as years in the future, once the kids were adults. At that point he saw that no matter what, his happiness was never going to matter. And that was evident with her affair. She told him to get over it and did since she did not leave that should have been resolution enough. (now that was not her approach with his affair. She has minimized and forgotten much to do about her's but has held firm that since she hadn't actively seeked divorce that she cares more for the family). I am not wanting to minimize or ridicule her pain. But there needs to be ownership in their partnership. Not caring about your spouse outside of the paycheck coming in, kid's responsbilities, and home repairs, does not bode well for a long future together. Just because that was "good enough" for one's unhappy existence does not mean it should be for both parties. He hurt her and he fully owns it. But not to the extent that he wants to continue negating his happiness for the above. He saw that was never going to change, and dday and the after days fully emphasized that. He needs some happiness in his life. And he feels he needs a partner that wants him for HIM, not for what he is providing.
Got it Posted March 28, 2010 Posted March 28, 2010 ... and very dangerous - it leads to the myth that marital rape is a contradiction in terms, that since spouses "own" each other, they have no right to deny the other access to their body. It's as abhorrent as the notion that you can't rape a sex worker (that it's bilking rather than rape). EVERYONE owns their own body, and has the right to share it - or withhold it - as they please. I would be appalled if my H thought I "owned" his body, or that he "owned" mine. If he was offering himself to me out of obligation rather than choice it would be the biggest turn-off imaginable! I second that amen!!!
califnan Posted March 28, 2010 Posted March 28, 2010 ... and wonder why he stuck it out in Hell so long with the x, when the new version is so much better :laugh: -------------------- Brace yourselves women. If the MM is so deceitful as to have an affair, he also Rewrites (or exagerates) the marital history as well.. And others may vouch for him, just in their jealousy of the wife - and wishing for her to have a "character builder" .. The original wife will always have the respect..
Fallen Angel Posted March 28, 2010 Posted March 28, 2010 -------------------- Brace yourselves women. If the MM is so deceitful as to have an affair, he also Rewrites (or exagerates) the marital history as well.. And others may vouch for him, just in their jealousy of the wife - and wishing for her to have a "character builder" .. The original wife will always have the respect.. Who's respect? The man who finally has enough and divorces her? The man who respected her so little that he had an affair or multiple affairs on her? I assure you, that my step-father holds my mother in the highest regard. As to his first wife, he has been known to compare her to Hilter. He has no more respect for her now that they are divorced than he did during their marriage. If she were on fire, he might think twice before offering her a cup of water. There is no respect there. People have to earn respect, she obviously did not, my mother obviously did. Take your blinders off, I know you want to believe that your exhusband regretted his decision, but it was not you he was with when he died, it was not you he wanted by his side. Perhaps he respected you as a human being and the mother of his children, but as a lover and a wife, his respect had moved elsewhere. You are projecting your desire for him to respect you onto every situation remotely similar to yours (he left for the OW), and in most cases, you are sorely mistaken.
califnan Posted March 28, 2010 Posted March 28, 2010 Who's respect? The man who finally has enough and divorces her? The man who respected her so little that he had an affair or multiple affairs on her? I assure you, that my step-father holds my mother in the highest regard. As to his first wife, he has been known to compare her to Hilter. He has no more respect for her now that they are divorced than he did during their marriage. If she were on fire, he might think twice before offering her a cup of water. There is no respect there. People have to earn respect, she obviously did not, my mother obviously did. Take your blinders off, I know you want to believe that your exhusband regretted his decision, but it was not you he was with when he died, it was not you he wanted by his side. Perhaps he respected you as a human being and the mother of his children, but as a lover and a wife, his respect had moved elsewhere. You are projecting your desire for him to respect you onto every situation remotely similar to yours (he left for the OW), and in most cases, you are sorely mistaken. ----------------- No. I have read enough of these posts to see how the OW buys the MM's rendition of the marriage (and her own wishes of the images) .. I have also read posters who disect marriages - in showing evidences that the vows are not to be broken.. ("Troggleputty" 8:52 today- "Individual Counseling") ... aside from God's laws.. My marriage was 24 yrs ago.. I have seen Both sides of the issue .. We are responsible if we lust, covet, steal that that belongs to another - regardless of what we wish for ourselves to think of the spouse or the marriage situation - or our so-called love for the MM. How can we "love" someone - if we cause him to stumble?
Fallen Angel Posted March 28, 2010 Posted March 28, 2010 ----------------- No. I have read enough of these posts to see how the OW buys the MM's rendition of the marriage (and her own wishes of the images) .. I have also read posters who disect marriages - in showing evidences that the vows are not to be broken.. ("Troggleputty" 8:52 today- "Individual Counseling") ... aside from God's laws.. My marriage was 24 yrs ago.. I have seen Both sides of the issue .. We are responsible if we lust, covet, steal that that belongs to another - regardless of what we wish for ourselves to think of the spouse or the marriage situation - or our so-called love for the MM. How can we "love" someone - if we cause him to stumble? You often say that you have seen "both sides" of the issue, as if that means you have some magical power of insight into it that the rest of us do not posses, based on your expert experience with affairs. I have been on all sides of the triangle, does that mean that I have more insight than you? Perhaps. I was a BW for 15 years. I have lived that pain, I know that suffering, and I know just how truly horrible marriages can be. (Not all MM are guilding the lily when they are speaking of the horrors of their marriage. NOTE* Mine does not lie about the state of his marriage, though I know you are convinced that is not possible that he is honest with me ) I was the WW when I started my emotional affair with my now sweetheart. I know that I was always honest with my sweetheart, and with my husband. Not every WS lies, sometimes they are completely honest about it all. I am the OW. Unlike your experience, mine has been a long-term EA/PA, as opposed to your short term EA. I know, from my experience that sometimes affairs can be wonderful, loving, uplifting experiences in which the OW not only feels loved and valued, but is loved and valued. I would say in the area of "credentials" used to judge my relationship, I have you beat by a long shot.
OWoman Posted March 28, 2010 Posted March 28, 2010 Brace yourselves women. Oz foreplay? If the MM is so deceitful as to have an affair, he also Rewrites (or exagerates) the marital history as well.. Everything I know about his former M, I know from others, not from him. He has never said anything against his xW - he's not that kind of guy. The original wife will always have the respect.. None that I've seen. Not a single person - including her kids - has ever had a good thing to say about her. If there's any respect anywhere, it's kept very well hidden...
White Flower Posted March 28, 2010 Posted March 28, 2010 ----------------- No. I have read enough of these posts to see how the OW buys the MM's rendition of the marriage (and her own wishes of the images) .. I have also read posters who disect marriages - in showing evidences that the vows are not to be broken.. ("Troggleputty" 8:52 today- "Individual Counseling") ... aside from God's laws.. My marriage was 24 yrs ago.. I have seen Both sides of the issue .. We are responsible if we lust, covet, steal that that belongs to another - regardless of what we wish for ourselves to think of the spouse or the marriage situation - or our so-called love for the MM. How can we "love" someone - if we cause him to stumble? Just like we can't own anyone we cannot cause anyone else to stumble. He owns whatever choices he makes. Oh, and a woman's essence is NOT in her body. It is in her brain. Her 'sexual powers' did not cause him to fall. Isn't he the 'stronger vessel'? I would say yes if he is a man and as the stronger vessel he should know better.
Got it Posted March 28, 2010 Posted March 28, 2010 califan - what is your purpose here? If you find the OP so horrible why are you on this forum? I am confused by your attentions here when you have readily admitted that you don't waste your time in RL with those that sin.
Lovelybird Posted March 29, 2010 Posted March 29, 2010 (edited) I have. He's my H now. . Really? I hope you wholeheartly enjoy that, it is your victory over a woman and her pain after all. I am not against a person loves another, but why cannot you wait for him to divorce at first? but instead of snapping him from the wife by sex--according to you? that's the point I don't understand. lack of basic human decency Edited March 29, 2010 by Lovelybird
White Flower Posted March 29, 2010 Posted March 29, 2010 Really? I hope you wholeheartly enjoy that, it is your victory over a woman and her pain after all. I am not against a person loves another, but why cannot you wait for him to divorce at first? but instead of snapping him from the wife by sex--according to you? that's the point I don't understand. lack of basic human decency Victory was won when MM decided to overcome spousal abuse and the M. Then and only then did he pursue a M with OWoman.
Lovelybird Posted March 29, 2010 Posted March 29, 2010 (edited) It is easier to accept the fact that you contribute the divorce and wife's pain and you steal a man if you paint the wife one dimentional --all black, a mean nazi who doesn't have much feeling in her and possibly won't feel pain, nothing good come out of her, isn't it? paint self as a hero at the same time, and the man is just poor and all innocent, wait to be rescued Edited March 29, 2010 by Lovelybird
White Flower Posted March 29, 2010 Posted March 29, 2010 It is always amazing to me that people believe what they want to believe rather than what has been documented and backed up all along. Sometimes 'faith' can be flawed.
pureinheart Posted March 29, 2010 Posted March 29, 2010 Well I don't think it just applies to men. A woman can be influence by her male partner to be more fluent in "guy speak". She will learn from her relationship what similar men respond to and appreciate. In this way, I think AP would be a bit stunned to learn how similar they are to the BS if they had not come to know them as simply the person they were co-conspiring against. The MP was drawn by certain qualities to their spouse, so it stands to reason a similar person would be interesting for the same qualities. Another thing I keep noticing about people who've confided in me that their partner cheated is, when they discover who the AP is, it is often a less attractive or perceived successful person. This leads me to believe that while the AP and the BS are similar in some ways, the fact that the MP stepping out is committed to someone else, their options are a bit hampered by the limitation of what they can offer the AP over the BS. So maybe often, they find that they have to lower their physical requirement preferences to find someone willing to over look the lack of what they can feasibly offer to the AP. I suspect this only adds to the competition factor for the AP and what they do get from the MP feels like a larger accomplishment than they actually receive and keeps them from realizing they really are short changing themselves. The MP has qualities they don't typically find in their own dating pool making their come on harder to resist. Hi Sally, If I am reading this correctly, what you are communicating is the MP is in essence "affairing down"? I have to wonder if the MP is affairing down, why would they jeapordise their M? Unless it has nothing to do with anything except real love emotions, a real attachment to the AP.
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