High Divorce Rates and a Free Society

[ADF]

People endlessly lament the high US divorce rate. On one level, this is perfectly understandable. Divorce is a harrowing process that often brutalizes people, harms children, bankrupts families and creates bad blood that can last a lifetime. Seeing the wreckage divorce can leave in its wake, many people are determined to lower the US divorce rate. Various proposals have been advanced as to how this might be achieved. So far, none has proven successful.

 

However, I want to suggest that a high divorce rate is the price we pay for living in a free society. Look closely at societies where divorce rates are low, and in the majority of cases, you will see some common elements. Among them:

 

1) Societies with low divorce rates tend to be societies in which women have few, if any, legal rights. In the US, about 75% of divorces are intiated by women. We might reasonably infer that women in low-divorce societies often stay married because they have to, not because they want to.

 

2) Societies with low divorce rates tend to be societies with weak or non-existant social safety nets. Many women throughout the world remain in unhappy or even abusive marriages out of economic neccessity.

 

3) Marriages in societies with low divorce rates are often strictly functional relationships. Questions of love or martial happiness are irrelevant. Husband and wife each have roles to play, and they play them, period.

 

4) Societies with low divorce rates are often societies in which marriages are arranged. Matches are made by senior familiy members, often with an eye to financial gain or increasing social status. Again, questions about whether marriage partners are happy with each other are secondary at best.

 

I could go on, but I think you get the picture. In free societies, people get to choose their own mates, expect their mates to treat them well, and expect to be content in their marriages. These are difficult goals to achieve. Given that fact, we should expect marriages in free socieities to have a relatively high rate of failure.

 

Any thoughts?

[LonelyTiger]

I was having a discussion with my parents only the other day about the increase in the number of divorces. My mother's opinion being that 'young' people these days just don't try hard enough (she was having a dig at my stbxh, not at me! ). People of her generation rarely got divorced - they just stuck it out because that's what marriage is about!

 

My own take on this is that in the modern, western world we now have so many more choices than our parents had and we have much higher expectations from life. We think we can have it all - partner, children, career, lifestyle - and the field of personal development encourages both men and women to strive to reach their full potential. When we think we are not achieving what we should - and inevitably we probably won't, because having it all isn't really possible - we become dissatisfied and we want a new life.

 

So, yes, I agree. Divorce is therefore much more likely in a society that is free to make it's own choices. Seems pretty clear cut to me.

[sweetjasmine]

Any thoughts?

 

Agreed. In my experience, in more traditional cultures, people stay married because of social expectations and social pressure, not because they're happy and want to stay in the marriage. It's often women who don't have any options or way of supporting themselves should they divorce, but that affects men as well. Men can't jump ship even if they want to because they'd be abandoning someone who's financially dependent on them.

[sumdude]

I'll agree. The flip side of the coin is that some people also have the idea that they don't have to work hard for it either. Things go south for a year or so and it's time to trade in the old model. Like a spouse is a car or something, trade it in every few years for another one.

 

The "What Have You Done For ME Lately" society.

[sally4sara]

I definitely prefer having my freedoms despite the concept that with having them contributes to other perceived problems.

 

Yes women have more rights in certain countries leading to having more options on how to deal with the problems they find in their marriages. Yes there will always be some amount of abuse of these freedoms. There was abuse of these freedoms before women were given the same freedoms as men. Doubling the amount of people holding these freedoms will cause an increase of their occurrence and double the increase of people who abuse these freedoms.

 

With this in mind, I think of marriage much in the same way I think of athletic hopefuls. Be it an eye on a gold medal or acceptance to a pro league, not all hopefuls will attain their goal. Some will not have the skills to attain it, or the drive to keep at it, and as well, some factors are beyond their control and the opportunity never presents itself to be had.

There has always and likely will always be people who still want the shot at it. And the ones who succeed inspire us to try to join their ranks.

 

I went for the gold anyway - here is hoping!

[curiou]

I think your argument is sound and I would have to agree. Fascinating topic.

[tnttim]

America and Puerto Rico are at the top of the list with 5 in 1000 people getting divorced. PR is basically our 51 state so it's no surprise it's 2nd. The world wide average is 1 in a 1000, America is 5 times that. It's almost sickening to realize that fact. If we had a disease that had 5 times the mortality rate in the states than worldwide we would have scientists working day and night to solve the problem. The problem is mutliplied by the fact that it makes money, and generates jobs. Make divorces free and I bet you will see services for keeping families together drastically rise. Which I think would reduce the sickening number of divorces here.

 

A side note, there is a website that offers the service to connect people who want to cheat on their spouses. I refuse to say the name because I think it's insane. That's what a free society gets you.

 

We are all prisoners of others freedom to do what they want. Freedom of speech needs to be replaced by freedom to listen.

[LonelyTiger]

A side note, there is a website that offers the service to connect people who want to cheat on their spouses. I refuse to say the name because I think it's insane. That's what a free society gets you.

 

What a disgusting idea! If people want this kind of lifestyle, why get married in the first place?

[threebyfate]

There are no absolutes when it comes to human nature. Where there's a rule or boundary with no real traumatic consequences, you'll find people will push and/or break them. This is both the strength and the weakness of mankind. We're determined to get what we want, hence why we've been to the moon, have found ways to defy gravity and prolong our lives.

 

Juxtapose marriage against organized religion, from a rules/boundaries perspective. How many Christians actually abide by the ten commandments, to the letter?

[LonelyTiger]

There are no absolutes when it comes to human nature. Where there's a rule or boundary with no real traumatic consequences, you'll find people will push and/or break them. This is both the strength and the weakness of mankind. We're determined to get what we want, hence why we've been to the moon, have found ways to defy gravity and prolong our lives.

 

Juxtapose marriage against organized religion, from a rules/boundaries perspective. How many Christians actually abide by the ten commandments, to the letter?

 

Most people are 'brought up' to follow a certain religion (or not) and may therefore rebel against the rules.

 

In the Western world most people who are married made a choice to enter that institution. Sometimes even writing their own vows!

 

Human beings are ultimately selfish and, as you say, determined to get what we want, but what's your definition of 'traumatic consequences'? Surely the loss of your spouse and/or children is about as traumatic as it gets?

 

If living in a free society means being free to hurt whoever we want, whenever we want, and sod the consequences, then we don't deserve that freedom.

[Woggle]

I know about that website and while I find it digusting I can't even get mad over it anymore. I just want good people to be protected when their spouse flakes out or betrays them.

[nobmagnet]

I know about that website and while I find it digusting I can't even get mad over it anymore. I just want good people to be protected when their spouse flakes out or betrays them.

 

 

Hi guys,

 

The website you mention has caused upraw here in UK:eek: It is a sign of the times i do declare and yes there is a massive market for extramarital affaires. It makes me dispare:mad:

 

IMO it seems to also be the quick fix throw away society we have. My washing machine breaks........rather than be bothered to get it fixed as our parents would have, we buy a new one. We dont wait, we just see summots not working and get a new one. I have traditional values and was traded in. i cant see that changing in my life time and that gives me upset for my children because they see it as the normal now.........you dont work hard at something you quit and move onto the next.

 

 

Kids aspire to be famous..........dare i say expect it. How shallow is that?? What happened to kids wanting to be a doctor, vet, fireman, police person, hairdresser...........as i say i dispare for the future of this so called developed countries....ugh

 

Nobby xx

[threebyfate]

Most people are 'brought up' to follow a certain religion (or not) and may therefore rebel against the rules.

Most people realize after they grow up beyond their teenage rebellion years, that religion is for them or not for them. Surprisingly, I'm not knocking religion. What I'm saying is that A LOT of people live in the short-term.

 

In the Western world most people who are married made a choice to enter that institution. Sometimes even writing their own vows!

Sure, people made whatever choices they've made. But how many people think long-term?

Human beings are ultimately selfish and, as you say, determined to get what we want, but what's your definition of 'traumatic consequences'? Surely the loss of your spouse and/or children is about as traumatic as it gets?

Common sense would dictate that loss of family unit is traumatic. But if that were the case, why do so many people cheat? Short-term, selfish thinking.

If living in a free society means being free to hurt whoever we want, whenever we want, and sod the consequences, then we don't deserve that freedom.

Well no, that's kind of silly. We each make choices in life and are responsible for our choices.

[threebyfate]

Btw, here's an interesting article in reference to allele 334, which discusses how this gene variant can predispose men to cheating. Of course, nurture also plays a big role but predisposition just makes it that much more difficult to pair bond in a healthy way.

 

http://www.scientificblogging.com/news_releases/is_allele_334_an_infidelity_gene_for_men

[sumdude]

America and Puerto Rico are at the top of the list with 5 in 1000 people getting divorced.

 

Trying to figure out how this jives with the 50% divorce rate for first marriages. Even if only half the adults get married that's still 250 out of 1000. I guess this is annually?

[LonelyTiger]

Well no, that's kind of silly. We each make choices in life and are responsible for our choices.

 

Of course we are all responsible for our choices but where do you draw the line?

 

Western society dictates that we aren't free to physically hurt other people when we choose, so why should we feel free to emotionally hurt others, just because it suits us?

 

I'm not suggesting that anybody should be locked up for seeking out extra marital affairs - obviously - but I do find it sad that, because we live in what we call a 'free' society, we have to accept such behaviour as normal.

[threebyfate]

Of course we are all responsible for our choices but where do you draw the line?

 

Western society dictates that we aren't free to physically hurt other people when we choose, so why should we feel free to emotionally hurt others, just because it suits us?

 

I'm not suggesting that anybody should be locked up for seeking out extra marital affairs - obviously - but I do find it sad that, because we live in what we call a 'free' society, we have to accept such behaviour as normal.

Emotional distress is quantifiable in a court of law, IF it can be proved.

 

Having said that, where do you draw the line? Say you said to someone that they're a jerk. Should this be disallowed, when that person is acting like a jerk, since it hurt their feelings?

 

As for considering certain types of behaviour as normal, not necessarily. You, as a person, must set up your own personal boundaries and enforce them. If someone treats you in the way that demeans you, you don't have to put up with it, enforcing your boundaries of self-respect in whatever way makes sense to you. But in enforcing those boundaries, you risk both emotional distress to the other person, as well as loss to yourself.

[Crusoe]

I agree that high divorce rate come from more freedom. In my mind, ultimate freedom is the acceptance of all responsibilty, sadly very few are willing to accept all responsibilty, instead we make excuses. It seems that is what we have become free to do, make excuses.

[tnttim]

Trying to figure out how this jives with the 50% divorce rate for first marriages. Even if only half the adults get married that's still 250 out of 1000. I guess this is annually?

 

no that's the population, 1000 married, divorced, or single people make up the 1000. so 10 in 1000 get married while 5 of 1000 are getting divorced and 985 0f the 1000 are happy....LOL.

[candymoon]

I was just reading about this very topic in Psychology Today. Basically, the article said that this 'throw away' society has also created throw-away marriages. That people expect perfection now more than ever in their SO and at the slightest crack in the chassis, well it's time to upgrade. Basically, we have idealized and unrealistic expectations of our SOs based on the current American (or Western) fantasy dreams of romance and commitment.

 

I had problems with that article, which was very one sided. There are odd circumstances to everything (abuse, addiction, etc). As someone mentioned before, there are countries where divorce is impossible in even the most abusive relationships. I'm sure their rates would skyrocket too if D were an option.

 

Some of the article is true, though. We have huge amounts of information (or misinformation) at the click of a button and so much freedom to choose whatever we want or can afford. Sometimes, though, maybe our minds are so clouded because there are -too many- options. We do fantasize and think, "well i could be doing this or that or the other." When in reality, perhaps we are just clouded by what our current social thinking tells us we should be doing or what is beyond our current real life means and ability.

 

Back in the day we were SUPPOSED to get married for life, whether it was for religious or societal reasons. It was expected and that was that. If he hit you, well you married him, if she cheated, well you married her. Hell, now people marry (in my inner circle) and folks whisper, "how long before they D? I give it two years..." So now, people get married with that cloud over this D cloud over their heads before they're even done with the vows because society now tells us that this is damn near inevitable...

 

And here's another phenomena I think is on the rise. I've noticed this a lot lately in new friends I'm making and talking to:

 

What's really sad is that Western fantasy life of that Prince or Princess Charming is so engrained I know people in their 40s who try desperately to find that someone, but there is never anyone perfect enough to meet that expectation. No children, just a jumbled string of short-term relationships--and now they cry their youth and reproductive years are almost over and are now incredibly sad they let this 'free society' and their over idealized fantasies get in their way and hadn't really tried at all...