Seriously Depressed

[stuckinoz]

That having been said, I feel like I am trapped in a Catch-22. When I am single, my religion says I can't have sex. After I get married, it will be my wife telling me I can't have sex.

 

Apart from the whole virgin thing, though, is it possible for married guys in general to have sexual relationships with their wives? Are there even any loving wives out there anymore? It is so depressing to think that it is impossible to have a long term sexual relationship with my wife.

 

I'm not sure why you're so hell-bent on this happening. It doesn't happen in every single marriage. Also, WHEN & IF it does happen, it's normally temporary. Such as; having kids, makes a woman exhausted....therefore, sometimes sex gets put on the back burner. Worries about money, kids, etc....can also make someone (both men & women) too stressed to even think about sex. Hard times in a marriage also contribute. (It's just all part of LIFE)

 

I don't get why you are 100% positive once you put a ring on a womans finger she will no longer ever, ever, ever, ever want to have sex with you. This thinking kind of blows my mind.

 

If this fear is based because you come to LoveSHack & read all of these stories..........GET OUT OF THIS WEBSITE! These people have problems ME INCLUDED.....We are not 100% of the population. We represent a less than 50% margin, of the general population. (Keep all of this in mind if that is what you are basing your 'DECISION' on)

 

Personally, I think you may be using all of this as an excuse (per se') to not get into a committed relationship.

[MarriedTex]

Hi Waiting,

 

I'm glad that you're following your heart and your faith in waiting for marriage. I'm a Catholic and glad to see you adhering to the teachings.

 

However, don't forget other aspects of the gospel. Most notably, forgiveness. We're not a one-mistake-and-done people. Hey, you do something wrong, go to confession and clear your mind and soul of past transgressions.

 

So what if the future Mrs. Waiting wound up not waiting. If she's sorry for what she did and wiped the slate clean in confession, that's really an issue between her and God.

 

To me, it seems awfully unforgiving and totally anti-Catholic to be so dogmatic in judging other people. It's not your role to judge. If somebody is square with God, you should be square with them, too.

 

If you are serious about applying this litmus test to prospective partners, you're no better than the Pharisees beating thier chest and proclaiming how much they love God (just so that everyone around them can hear them.)

 

So, let's settle down on the pious, I'm waiting for marriage deal. Instead, go and find somebody who shares your devotion (even with past transgressions and failings) and will be a good life partner.

 

Forgiveness is the centerpiece of our religion. Not abstinence. Don't let anybody tell you any differently.

[Els]

I find it amusing that an institution that demands celibacy from it's followers, insists that the barely legal female participants wear short hemmed kilts and knee socks:eek:.

 

It's like putting out bowls of smarties at a weight watcher's meeting and then slapping the participants for eating them.

 

Errr. Girls in catholic schools where I live wear knee-length skirts and shirts buttoned to the top...

[kevinconner]

If you find a virgin, she will have no idea on what makes her tick. It will be up to the both you to figure that out.

 

You sir, have already masturbated. She probably has as well, but you have that one thing so dialed in its like Amtrak predictable. With her, not so much.

 

You have to lose the plan of having mad sex with a virgin. Fast forward 5-10 years and she is going to tell you she wished she experienced more men in her life and that she wants to make sure you are not a lousy lover.

 

You've thought about this quite a bit. By your logic is skewed. You need to go back and cut that list down a bit. I'd say find a woman for yourself, get like 2-3 under your belt and expect that your future wife will have done the same. Then you'll both be equal going into it and have zero resentment for not taking a few test drives.

[TinyLee222]

If you find a virgin, she will have no idea on what makes her tick. It will be up to the both you to figure that out.

 

You sir, have already masturbated. She probably has as well, but you have that one thing so dialed in its like Amtrak predictable. With her, not so much.

 

You have to lose the plan of having mad sex with a virgin. Fast forward 5-10 years and she is going to tell you she wished she experienced more men in her life and that she wants to make sure you are not a lousy lover.

 

You've thought about this quite a bit. By your logic is skewed. You need to go back and cut that list down a bit. I'd say find a woman for yourself, get like 2-3 under your belt and expect that your future wife will have done the same. Then you'll both be equal going into it and have zero resentment for not taking a few test drives.

 

IMO, the best advice. Here is a likely scenario. Hope not! In 10 years when the babies come,(and if you are a strict Catholic,they will) mortgage payments, career problems, money problems etc. your religion is going to fly right out the window when a pretty young thing gives you the time of day. Your wife who by now may be really wrapped up in the kids and maybe has put on a few pounds isn't doing it for you anymore. Maybe she

never did? Maybe you never did it for her either? You are always going to wonder what it would have been like to be with another woman. She is always going to wonder what it would be like to be with another man especially if your aren't a skilled lover. You both resent each other but go to mass every Sunday and act like the happy couple. I cant understand people who follow religious dogma. And yes I am a Catholic although non practicing at this time. I guess that means I am going to hell

 

Susy Sunshine "Lee"

 

 

[waiting4marriage]

Hi Waiting,

 

I'm glad that you're following your heart and your faith in waiting for marriage. I'm a Catholic and glad to see you adhering to the teachings.

 

However, don't forget other aspects of the gospel. Most notably, forgiveness. We're not a one-mistake-and-done people. Hey, you do something wrong, go to confession and clear your mind and soul of past transgressions.

 

So what if the future Mrs. Waiting wound up not waiting. If she's sorry for what she did and wiped the slate clean in confession, that's really an issue between her and God.

 

To me, it seems awfully unforgiving and totally anti-Catholic to be so dogmatic in judging other people. It's not your role to judge. If somebody is square with God, you should be square with them, too.

 

If you are serious about applying this litmus test to prospective partners, you're no better than the Pharisees beating thier chest and proclaiming how much they love God (just so that everyone around them can hear them.)

 

So, let's settle down on the pious, I'm waiting for marriage deal. Instead, go and find somebody who shares your devotion (even with past transgressions and failings) and will be a good life partner.

 

Forgiveness is the centerpiece of our religion. Not abstinence. Don't let anybody tell you any differently.

 

I totally understand what you are saying. I have dealt with this idea about 4 years ago (when I basically gave up hope.)

 

Sure, she may be forgiven, etc., etc. But is that really going to help me when she refuses to have sex with ME? She was out there having sex, then got forgiven, and now she's punishing me? I wish that it didn't have to boil down to it like this, but I'd rather hear about headaches from a woman who only had sex with me, than hear that lie from a woman who has had sex with many other guys.

 

You can say that I'm being unfair, she's sorry, etc., etc. But the fact is that by getting married, I am taking THE BIGGEST financial and emotional risk that I have ever had. I know that, as a Catholic, I can't get divorced and remarry. I risk losing my one chance to be married on this. I risk losing my home. I risk losing my money. I risk losing my kids and have them used as pawns against me. And I risk having them raised by a single mother who is always bringing home new boyfriends and saying bad things about me in front of the kids. Shouldn't I be able to expect a high quality religious woman if I am taking such extreme risks?

[waiting4marriage]

I'm not sure why you're so hell-bent on this happening. It doesn't happen in every single marriage. Also, WHEN & IF it does happen, it's normally temporary. Such as; having kids, makes a woman exhausted....therefore, sometimes sex gets put on the back burner. Worries about money, kids, etc....can also make someone (both men & women) too stressed to even think about sex. Hard times in a marriage also contribute. (It's just all part of LIFE)

 

I don't get why you are 100% positive once you put a ring on a womans finger she will no longer ever, ever, ever, ever want to have sex with you. This thinking kind of blows my mind.

 

If this fear is based because you come to LoveSHack & read all of these stories..........GET OUT OF THIS WEBSITE! These people have problems ME INCLUDED.....We are not 100% of the population. We represent a less than 50% margin, of the general population. (Keep all of this in mind if that is what you are basing your 'DECISION' on)

 

Personally, I think you may be using all of this as an excuse (per se') to not get into a committed relationship.

 

This website isn't my problem. My problem is why I am here. I had always heard stories (from every married guy who ever commented on it, anyway) about how their wives didn't put out. It was always the same story.

 

From hearing all this, I had the impression that women just didn't have a sex drive. My eyes were opened once I got to college. Almost all of the women there were having sex on short-term relationships. I didn't understand how sexless marriages could happen if women actually liked sex. After time spent trying to figure it out, I reached the conclusion that is by and large my first post. It all made sense to me.

 

I couldn't say I wasn't warned. My roommates in college were the "bad boys" who always had tons of women. Even they told me that they wouldn't get married until they were ready to give up on sex. I knew that most every woman I met has had sex with several guys, and that once they were married they wouldn't have sex with their husbands. Also note how I said that the guys the have sex with and the guys they marry are nothing alike. I guess that they marry guys they really aren't interested in sexually, but who would be good fathers. This would also explain why they feel no guilt about racking up his credit cards, refusing sex, nagging, filing for divorce, and trying to get every last penny she can for herself. She resented the stable husband when she was attracted to the unstable "bad boys," felt like she was doing the husband a favor, and feeling like she deserved everything because she was gracing him with her presence.

 

It really IS a dark dating/marriage world as I see it, but my beliefs are only further reinforced by the high divorce rate.

 

That's why I have trouble accepting that there could be a woman who has my values, and would still have sex with me.

[stillafool]

I know that I can easily avoid a lot of those problems. I have met many nice women in church that probably share my beliefs - at least to a degree.

 

However, almost EVERY married guy I have ever heard comment about the issue has told me the same thing:

 

1) They get the ring and turn into a nun.

2) You'd never think they had THAT many headaches...

 

Etc., etc., etc.

 

I know that the religious end of it could be helped a lot by marrying a girl who goes to church a lot, and that would also help with the divorce end of it.

 

But I can't help this feeling that no matter what I do, how hard I try, or how much work I put into a marriage, the wife won't have sex with me simply because she's my WIFE.

 

 

Then you will have to be very good in bed. Any woman can get in a marriage and "turn off" on you. It doesn't matter if you married a virgin or a whore. Stop worrying about things that probably won't happen. As far as your meeting a catholic virgin; I think church is an excellent place to meet the type of wife you desire. Good luck.

[stillafool]

I don't know why everyone is trying to convince OP to settle for a "non virigin". It is clear he has made up his mind that he only wants a "virgin". So OP keep going to your Catholic Church and you will meet one there. I'm sure they have programs and activities for "singles" as most churches do. Do you attend these activities and don't you meet virgins there?

[stillafool]

I couldn't say I wasn't warned. My roommates in college were the "bad boys" who always had tons of women. Even they told me that they wouldn't get married until they were ready to give up on sex. I knew that most every woman I met has had sex with several guys, and that once they were married they wouldn't have sex with their husbands. Also note how I said that the guys the have sex with and the guys they marry are nothing alike. I guess that they marry guys they really aren't interested in sexually, but who would be good fathers. This would also explain why they feel no guilt about racking up his credit cards, refusing sex, nagging, filing for divorce, and trying to get every last penny she can for herself. She resented the stable husband when she was attracted to the unstable "bad boys," felt like she was doing the husband a favor, and feeling like she deserved everything because she was gracing him with her presence.

 

 

 

Stop worrying about what girls did at college. Those women and men have moved on from that life and morphed into entirely different people as most healthy individuals do after college. It's really none of your business.

 

Just concentrate on finding your mate.

[She's_NotInLove_w/Me]

I married a catholic girl who was a virgin when I met her. We've been together 17 years and have 5 kids. We practice natural family planning...

 

After 17 years together we have a very good sex life. I would advise you that a 'successful' marriage has little to do with how often sex is enjoyed by both partners. Our marriage has had many issues, ups and downs, etc, etc; but nothing ever too serious as far as sex goes... IF and when that moment arrives, I am sure we will, with hard work and communication work through that also. That my friend is what marriage is about.

 

You lack the maturity and life experience to understand and appreciate the true investment marriage is. I am not talking money in any way shape of form here.

 

There is so much more to concern yourself with then your future wife simply not putting out for you. I am sorry to tell you sir, but you JUST DON'T GET IT! And I am not sure why I feel the need to say this, but I think you are destined for a life where you just won't be gettin' it! I believe that when someone focuses on something too much, they end up chasing it away. And that applies to just about anything in life, not just sex.

 

Good Luck

[MarriedTex]

Stop worrying about what girls did at college. Those women and men have moved on from that life and morphed into entirely different people as most healthy individuals do after college. It's really none of your business.

 

Just concentrate on finding your mate.

 

 

I think we may be getting to the heart of the problem here. I suspect Waiting4 may be using abstract, generalized perceptions of the dating market pre-empt him from even trying to engage in a relationships.

 

How many women/girls have you asked out on a date in the past year? It's easy to use the "why bother, it will all turn out bad anyway" as an excuse to not even try. You have to get in the game, and I sense you are looking for validation on this forum that marriage is a terrible, sex-deprived march to death. That gives you a nice safe rationalization for not getting out there and getting into the game. Well, if that's what's happening, you're really not fooling anybody except yourself.

 

The only answer here is experience. Get out and date people and get a sense of their individual character rather than making broad generalizations that keep you from getting out and living life. A date is not a marriage proposal. A date is not an invitation to sex. It's an opportunity to get to know somebody else.

 

I suspect you're using religion as a nice little cocoon for protecting yourself from the rejection that can easily happen when you put yourself out there. It can be tough, but you'll never find the perfect Catholic girl of your dreams if you don't go out there and start meeting a few of them.

[Woggle]

Why not just be a player and adopt a kid? I agree that you can't trust women so don't bother trying. This is pretty much how women become after marriage so I guess you should learn to accept it.

[CarrieT]

But is that really going to help me when she refuses to have sex with ME?

 

Why are you already assuming that some as-yet-unknown woman to whom you are going to marry is not going to have sex with you?

 

Why are you predisposing your fate in such a negative way when you are not even dating?

 

I don't get this doom-gloom attitude of deciding your fate YEARS beforehand.

 

Almost all of your posts are assuming that once you find a wife and have the children, she is going to stop wanting sex and if you spend ANY time on this site and read around as to why couples stop having sex, you will see that 98% of the time it is due to a breakdown in communication between BOTH parties.

[Luv2dance]

I married a catholic girl who was a virgin when I met her. We've been together 17 years and have 5 kids. We practice natural family planning...

 

After 17 years together we have a very good sex life. I would advise you that a 'successful' marriage has little to do with how often sex is enjoyed by both partners. Our marriage has had many issues, ups and downs, etc, etc; but nothing ever too serious as far as sex goes... IF and when that moment arrives, I am sure we will, with hard work and communication work through that also. That my friend is what marriage is about.

 

You lack the maturity and life experience to understand and appreciate the true investment marriage is. I am not talking money in any way shape of form here.

 

There is so much more to concern yourself with then your future wife simply not putting out for you. I am sorry to tell you sir, but you JUST DON'T GET IT! And I am not sure why I feel the need to say this, but I think you are destined for a life where you just won't be gettin' it! I believe that when someone focuses on something too much, they end up chasing it away. And that applies to just about anything in life, not just sex.

 

Good Luck

 

Couldn't have said it better!! You can make YOUR marriage what you want it to be, but it won't be a walk in the park but take WORK. I have decided communication is KEY to making a relationship work and if that shuts down then everything else does too.

 

With this doom and gloom attitude how can you expect it to be a happy experience??

[stuckinoz]

This website isn't my problem. My problem is why I am here. I had always heard stories (from every married guy who ever commented on it, anyway) about how their wives didn't put out. It was always the same story.

 

From hearing all this, I had the impression that women just didn't have a sex drive. My eyes were opened once I got to college. Almost all of the women there were having sex on short-term relationships. I didn't understand how sexless marriages could happen if women actually liked sex. After time spent trying to figure it out, I reached the conclusion that is by and large my first post. It all made sense to me.

 

I couldn't say I wasn't warned. My roommates in college were the "bad boys" who always had tons of women. Even they told me that they wouldn't get married until they were ready to give up on sex. I knew that most every woman I met has had sex with several guys, and that once they were married they wouldn't have sex with their husbands. Also note how I said that the guys the have sex with and the guys they marry are nothing alike. I guess that they marry guys they really aren't interested in sexually, but who would be good fathers. This would also explain why they feel no guilt about racking up his credit cards, refusing sex, nagging, filing for divorce, and trying to get every last penny she can for herself. She resented the stable husband when she was attracted to the unstable "bad boys," felt like she was doing the husband a favor, and feeling like she deserved everything because she was gracing him with her presence.

 

It really IS a dark dating/marriage world as I see it, but my beliefs are only further reinforced by the high divorce rate.

 

That's why I have trouble accepting that there could be a woman who has my values, and would still have sex with me.

 

 

Because of your posts & your current state of mind - I personally would feel sorry for any woman that would agree to marry you BECAUSE you have pre-conceived notions about what marriage is all about. You might want to consider some counseling prior to even jumping into a long term relationship.

 

Marriage is not JUST about SEX. It is about a lot of other things too. As I had mentioned before......Marriages take on many different lives during their course. Year 1 is WAY different than year 6 - & Year 6 is different than year 20 - & so on & so on....

 

You already have you mind made up that no matter who you marry she..............WILL NOT HAVE SEX WITH YOU....SHE WILL DIVORCE YOU & SHE WILL TAKE HALF OF EVERYTHING YOU OWN....This is JUST NOT TRUE.

 

Besides that - Who's to say that YOU won't turn into the person that you are describing here. Not wanting sex. (for whatever reason) Deciding you don't want your wife anymore & you decide to move on........or have an affair, or experiment with other things that life has to offer....Who's to say that won't happen?....Since you're predicting the future.

[JBelle]

I'm going to have to chime in with everyone here that you should toss your generalizations out the window and focus on meeting Catholic virgins and treating each one as an individual.

 

What do you have to lose?

 

Don't get married because you don't want to end up with a woman who will refuse to have sex with you => You stay a virgin, anyway, and not have gotten sex even once or had kids to raise and grandkids after that. So you die an old virgin bachelor because you are not supposed to have sex outside of marriage.

 

Get married to a Catholic virgin with your ideals of one marriage for life => You have sex, at minimum, a few times and have kids to put your time, energy, and future into. Your wife, while, if your fears become reality, not having sex with you, will likely have a nice quiet life together with, probably, some physical affection. And you die having had sex roughly 100 times in your lifetime.

 

 

Hope that puts it in perspective for you.

Find a woman who has the same beliefs of one marriage for life as you and who seems amicable; and you will have a better life than you would have had as a virgin bachelor.

 

Remember, divorce is not a cakewalk for most women, either. While women love their children, it is really hard to be the primary provider for them, while also trying to be their mother. I know so many women who are either single mothers or are divorced; and things are hard as heck for them. They have to sacrifice so much. The poorest families are the single mothers. I'd say that's a heck of a lot of guys not getting "shafted" by these women.

 

Stop worrying and stressing and being bitter. It's not attractive.

And look for Catholic virgins to court in a relaxed and unrushed manner.

[waiting4marriage]

I'm going to have to chime in with everyone here that you should toss your generalizations out the window and focus on meeting Catholic virgins and treating each one as an individual.

 

What do you have to lose?

 

Don't get married because you don't want to end up with a woman who will refuse to have sex with you => You stay a virgin, anyway, and not have gotten sex even once or had kids to raise and grandkids after that. So you die an old virgin bachelor because you are not supposed to have sex outside of marriage.

 

Get married to a Catholic virgin with your ideals of one marriage for life => You have sex, at minimum, a few times and have kids to put your time, energy, and future into. Your wife, while, if your fears become reality, not having sex with you, will likely have a nice quiet life together with, probably, some physical affection. And you die having had sex roughly 100 times in your lifetime.

 

 

Hope that puts it in perspective for you.

Find a woman who has the same beliefs of one marriage for life as you and who seems amicable; and you will have a better life than you would have had as a virgin bachelor.

 

Remember, divorce is not a cakewalk for most women, either. While women love their children, it is really hard to be the primary provider for them, while also trying to be their mother. I know so many women who are either single mothers or are divorced; and things are hard as heck for them. They have to sacrifice so much. The poorest families are the single mothers. I'd say that's a heck of a lot of guys not getting "shafted" by these women.

 

Stop worrying and stressing and being bitter. It's not attractive.

And look for Catholic virgins to court in a relaxed and unrushed manner.

 

Having some kids and a wife beats dying alone. I believe that. I also know that there is more to a marriage than sex. That doesn't change the fact that I want a woman who will put out.

 

I really wish it was easier to believe that there was a woman for me. I have heard of the sexless marriages for many years from countless married guys, and always accepted that that was the way every single marriage was. Then I go to college and know that all of the girls are having sex, and they claim to like it. I didn't know if that was true or not. Still don't.

 

I believe the married guys who were talking about this. I don't think they were lying or exaggerating.

 

I would like to have a wife and kids. I understand that sex is a small part of marriage. I also know that I don't want to ever have to give up the possibility of sex just because the wife has reached her preferred number of kids. For example, I think it would be awesome to have a wife who, twenty years down the line and after several kids and menopause, would still have sex with me. I would like to have the frequency of sex go up after she can no longer get pregnant. I don't want to think that my possibilities of getting any sex have been dead for the past 15 years and are never coming back.

[stillafool]

I would like to have a wife and kids. I understand that sex is a small part of marriage. I also know that I don't want to ever have to give up the possibility of sex just because the wife has reached her preferred number of kids. For example, I think it would be awesome to have a wife who, twenty years down the line and after several kids and menopause, would still have sex with me. I would like to have the frequency of sex go up after she can no longer get pregnant. I don't want to think that my possibilities of getting any sex have been dead for the past 15 years and are never coming back.

 

 

You are worrying about things that are years and years away. Hun, trust me you aren't going to feel the same about sex in 30 or 40 years. You will change also. If sex is this important to you in marriage you will just have to make sure that you tell your virgin gf the way you feel about it before you become engaged or marry. I grew up in church and there are some of the horniest women there.......oh the stories I could tell.

 

You need to get out there and date instead of worrying about things that will probably never happen. Go out and have some fun and meet girls.

[JBelle]

Then I go to college and know that all of the girls are having sex, and they claim to like it. I didn't know if that was true or not. Still don't.

 

......Aaaaaaaaaand this has what to do with Catholic virgins?

 

I would think the seemingly (emphasis on "seemingly") obvious answer here is that the college girls like sex, while the virgins your buddies are married to don't........, rather than what you have deduced.

 

But, like stillafool said, you will change in years time, too. What if YOU are the sexless spouse who has lost their libido? Look around you and take your blinders off. Look at all the women in this forum in sexless marriages (usually also in physical-affection-less marriages, too).

Really. You are up for it now; but you don't know the chemical changes your body will go through in years time. Looking around, I'd say the odds of you being the libido less spouse are still pretty good.

[Mme. Chaucer]

Perhaps the key to all of this is that you are, in fact, Seriously Depressed. Your determination to look at all approaches to your issue as dead ends and to give credence only to examples that support this position are pretty good indicators that you are clinically depressed.

 

Maybe it's a good time to take a good look at your SELF, see if there is any work to be done there, and get to that before presenting yourself as a potential life mate to any woman, Catholic virgin or otherwise. You'll have a much better chance of participating in your own destiny.

[stillafool]

Yes and also check yourself. I think you were sexually attracted to the "college girls" and wish they would settle down to be the woman you want. In otherwords, you don't really want a virgin.

[waiting4marriage]

......Aaaaaaaaaand this has what to do with Catholic virgins?

 

 

 

Absolutely nothing. It has to do with how they changed my opinion about women having no sex drive.

 

College was depressing because it made me think that I could not find any woman with my values.

[CarrieT]

Absolutely nothing. It has to do with how they changed my opinion about women having no sex drive.

 

I've got news for you (as I indicated before); women's sex drives have NOTHING to do with their religious upbringings. Go through and read about those relationships where there is little/no sex -- it has to do with the break-down of communication between the two people.

[waiting4marriage]

I've got news for you (as I indicated before); women's sex drives have NOTHING to do with their religious upbringings. Go through and read about those relationships where there is little/no sex -- it has to do with the break-down of communication between the two people.

 

I read the post, and I understand your argument. However, I know most of this is in my head, but this is what I always thought when I was growing up:

 

1) Sex Industry - Big money for sex workers because men have a hard time getting sex. Sex=Money.

 

2) Gold Diggers - Like men with money. Attraction=money.

 

3) Most women marry guys with more money than they have. Marriage=Money.

 

4) No sex after marriage - Already has access to the money. No need for sex.

 

Then when I got to college, I realized things were different from that. But everybody was still talking about the sexless marriages, and it was depressing knowing that the women who had sex with their boyfriends when they were younger and better looking, would refuse sex to their husbands.

 

So, why I can recognize just about any argument, if my marriage becomes the sexless existence I believe it will be, any argument to the contrary will probably be canceled out in my mind by my list above, or by what I've been told making it seem hopeless.

 

The difference is that all of the single guys are supposed to have that gung-ho belief that "it can't happen to me." I know it CAN happen to me. What kind of fool can I be to not take the advice of the other married guys?

Edited April 5, 2010 by waiting4marriage