Lunch Topic/Question for OW and BW

[silktricks]

One other thing I tried to add, but Reboot's post was too quick...

 

 

The biggest change of all would be that the married man (and ow) would no longer need to lie and sneak. It would be open and accepted. The MM and wife would probably discuss the other relationship(s) at times as well (as the OW(s) and MM do now). In other words, not only the marriage dynamic would change, the affair dynamic would as well.

[OWoman]

If all men do cheat then I think it would cause some changes in perceptions. BW's would not necessarily experience the same shame - but I believe that would depend somewhat upon who the husband chose as his mistress. The wife would probably want the husband to select a mistress who was good looking, had good position, etc.

 

The OW would also not experience the same shame. She would not need to be hidden from society as most are (not all, but most). She would also probably not expect or even necessarily want the MM to leave his marriage for her (I know, all don't want that, but it seems most do), as she would already be an accepted part of his life.

 

Marriage would be different. I would be much more openly a requirement for children and security as opposed to love. Marriage for love would probably diminish, and I would venture to say that marriages may become based more upon genetics (desiring healthy intelligent children) and finances. I do not believe that it would disappear, though.

 

This chimes with my earlier observations about how it plays out in my home country, where that is pretty much the case...

 

Oh yes, and I believe more married women would take lovers as well...

 

... but this doesn't. It still tends to be a one-way, patriarchal thing.

 

OTOH, in cities and amongst most other cultures, "cheating" is no big deal and there it happens more equally.

[reboot]

One other thing I tried to add, but Reboot's post was too quick...

 

 

The biggest change of all would be that the married man (and ow) would no longer need to lie and sneak. It would be open and accepted. The MM and wife would probably discuss the other relationship(s) at times as well (as the OW(s) and MM do now). In other words, not only the marriage dynamic would change, the affair dynamic would as well.

 

But then everyone would be European.

[OWoman]

One other thing I tried to add, but Reboot's post was too quick...

 

 

The biggest change of all would be that the married man (and ow) would no longer need to lie and sneak. It would be open and accepted. The MM and wife would probably discuss the other relationship(s) at times as well (as the OW(s) and MM do now). In other words, not only the marriage dynamic would change, the affair dynamic would as well.

 

The OW and MM discuss the BWs M??? OK.... Not IME, but I'm sure it happens some times...

 

But on the main point - Silk this isn't what happens in my home country. While the Ws accept that their Hs likely will have GFs, they don't want it in their faces. They would rather not know it was happening. Although it's an accepted fact, it happens off-stage, where the BW does not have to face it directly. (It's a bit like menstruation, in that regard. Everyone knows it happens, but few houses display boxes of tampons on the sideboard.)

[OWoman]

But then everyone would be European.

 

So long as us women were still allowed to shave our armpits, what's the problem?

[ladydesigner]

This is an interesting thread and I really like read the different POV presented here.

 

HN, I think I understand exactly what you are saying above. It would make me feel 'better' or 'liberated' if this was was reality. And it does feel weird.

 

Actually though, I'm very cynical about long-term marriages being affair-free. Whenever I hear about someone being married for a long time, say 30 years or more, I think to myself, 'hmmm, and I wonder if there was any cheating in that marriage?'

 

Or, if I hear of someone getting divorced I wonder to myself, "okay, which spouse had the affair?"

 

I know, I'm still in the jaded phase-even though my marriage is recovery nicely. I'm hoping this phase will pass but my H's affair has completely changed my outlook about marriage.

 

Yeah Snowflower I'm kinda in this boat myself as far as being jaded. I think it is RARE for long-term marriages to not have infidelity.

 

I do not know of one long-term marriage that has had no infidelity.

 

As far as accepting that MM will eventually cheat, well I have a big problem with this. I think if it is status quo for one to cheat then the MW should be allowed a lover as well. I personally do not think anyone would be okay with this deep down inside except those that have experienced open relationships. I am not okay with my H cheating. It bothers me to think of him having sex with someone else and it bothers me if he has feelings of love for someone else. While I think it is human nature to be attracted to others I don't think we want our partners to do the same, sort of a catch 22.

[herenow]

Yeah Snowflower I'm kinda in this boat myself as far as being jaded. I think it is RARE for long-term marriages to not have infidelity.

 

I do not know of one long-term marriage that has had no infidelity.

 

As far as accepting that MM will eventually cheat, well I have a big problem with this. I think if it is status quo for one to cheat then the MW should be allowed a lover as well. I personally do not think anyone would be okay with this deep down inside except those that have experienced open relationships. I am not okay with my H cheating. It bothers me to think of him having sex with someone else and it bothers me if he has feelings of love for someone else. While I think it is human nature to be attracted to others I don't think we want our partners to do the same, sort of a catch 22.

 

I agree with your feelings about affairs. I don't think they are OK and I hope there are not inevitable. However, you did say that you don't know of one long term marriage without infidelity.

[herenow]

 

HN, is he no longer a married man because he stopped the affair or because he got divorced (or both)?

 

Divorced with no questions asked. His wife filed the week after d-day and never looked back. Despite his begging and promises to do anything to make their marriage work, my friend knew she would never be able to love him again. She did what was right for her and her kids. As far as I can see, my friend and the kids are doing fine. My kids are friends with her kids and they seem to have adjusted well. The xH, no so good. Still loves my friend and is having a hard time moving on.

[silktricks]

Yeah Snowflower I'm kinda in this boat myself as far as being jaded. I think it is RARE for long-term marriages to not have infidelity.

 

I do not know of one long-term marriage that has had no infidelity.

I actually do (I think) - my sister's marriage has been (I'm almost certain) without infidelity - that said, however, I'd rather be in my own marriage - infidelity and all - her husband appears to me to be a completely emasculated fool.

 

As far as accepting that MM will eventually cheat, well I have a big problem with this. I think if it is status quo for one to cheat then the MW should be allowed a lover as well. I personally do not think anyone would be okay with this deep down inside except those that have experienced open relationships. I am not okay with my H cheating. It bothers me to think of him having sex with someone else and it bothers me if he has feelings of love for someone else. While I think it is human nature to be attracted to others I don't think we want our partners to do the same, sort of a catch 22.

 

I think that if all of society was completely accepting of "open relationships" than it would completely change all of our attitudes. Our lives would be utterly different than thay are now. The person I am, having been raised in the society in which I was raised, this person, is NOT OK with with my husband having sex and/or feelings of love for someone - anyone other than me. But that other person - raised in a different society with different social mores - I don't honestly know what that person would feel. I can only (and did only) speculate.

[ladydesigner]

I agree with your feelings about affairs. I don't think they are OK and I hope there are not inevitable. However, you did say that you don't know of one long term marriage without infidelity.

 

HN I think most A are inevitable as sad as that reality is. I wonder how people could become okay with an idea like this. I think on either side it would hurt deeply if the MM cheats, or the MW cheats, or the MM leave s for OW and cheats on her and vice versa. All the different scenarios. I think it is naive for any person to think that it will never happen to them.

 

I think it is very important to be really happy and secure with oneself so that when the inevitable does occur you can grieve pick up the pieces and move on, whether that means R or D.

 

I have a very tainted view of monogamy as I don't believe it works, but people want it otherwise they would not feel those feelings of jealousy and betrayal when cheated on. Why we are programmed this way? Maybe it is a learning experience that we need to figure out as humans.

 

I know in tribal societies, men slept around and women took care of the babies. I believe the women slept around as well. I think when we become so wrapped up with a person emotionally and that person strays it hurts. When there isn't so much of an emotional connection it doesn't hurt so much.

 

When I found out my H cheated I was not as emotionally involved in the M like I was in the beginning, hence his A did not hurt me as bad as someone who is head over heels with their H. Now I am feeling more emotionally connected to him and if he were to cheat now it would hurt me a lot more.

[ladydesigner]

I think that if all of society was completely accepting of "open relationships" than it would completely change all of our attitudes. Our lives would be utterly different than thay are now. The person I am, having been raised in the society in which I was raised, this person, is NOT OK with with my husband having sex and/or feelings of love for someone - anyone other than me. But that other person - raised in a different society with different social mores - I don't honestly know what that person would feel. I can only (and did only) speculate.

 

Yes this is a tough pill to swallow. I guess if we were all programmed in thinking early on that it is okay to be freely sexual with whomever one wishes it might be different. Would we still feel as emotionally connected to people? I'm not sure.

[Snowflower]

Divorced with no questions asked. His wife filed the week after d-day and never looked back. Despite his begging and promises to do anything to make their marriage work, my friend knew she would never be able to love him again. She did what was right for her and her kids. As far as I can see, my friend and the kids are doing fine. My kids are friends with her kids and they seem to have adjusted well. The xH, no so good. Still loves my friend and is having a hard time moving on.

 

Thanks for answering!

 

Stupid, stupid men. I will never understand why they are so willing to gamble their marriage/families in order to have an A-especially in those cases where they never wanted to lose these things. Your friend's xH is a perfect example of this...regretting the divorce and can't move on.

 

As for my own H, it was a little different scenario but still hard for me to understand.

[herenow]

But... but... if this theory has truth to it and as someone said the MM is given the free pass from the beginning (or MW for that manner) to cheat (which technically it's not cheating if you've been given the free pass' date=' it's like an open marriage) would less people cheat? If it weren't for the thrill of doing something that someone could make a big deal about (because it's widely accepted as just the way it is, would less people feel the need to go outside the marriage? Would just knowing you could if you wanted to keep you from going there?[/quote']

 

This is great! We discussed this a lunch as well. I believe there may be some truth to it. If the trill wasn't there, would some people not have affairs?

 

How about this: Let's say (hypothetically), as part of a marriage contract, each spouse was given one free pass to cheat. Would everyone use it, or would they hold on to it? Seems to me this scenario works well for the OW. I would think that a MM with one free pass would have to find a very special woman to use that pass on. Or, would many man take that pass to the grave because they would always wonder if there was someone better to use it on? This is not meant to slam anyone, just for discussion.

 

Kind of like, if you could go back and change one thing in your life. Would you use it or hold on to it just in case you needed it later?

[Got it]

I do not think all men cheat just like I don't think all women do. But I do think there is a disconnect in most marriages at time and some weather them better than others.

 

Marriage, and sexual fidelity, did not always go hand in hand. Love was never a compenent until the last few hundred years. So the cheating piece, especially on the male side, is a fairly new component. Does that excuse those that promise fidelity to break that? No. But the same rule should apply for those that stop marital relations and think their partner should stay stuck.

 

Marriage is based on promises on multiple different facets (or should be done prior to marriage) and as people grow, mature, and change their promises can change. All divorces are based on the breaking of these mutually agreed upon pieces. The woman who wants a child but her spouse doesn't. How money is going to be handled, respect, sexual fidelity, religion, child rearing. But these pieces need to be readdressed year after year.

 

I believe, we live such long lives now it is unreasonable to think two people can/should stay married their whole lives. Nor do I think it is a great failing if one does not. How you treated each other is the most important key but finding yourself at a disconnect or impasse does not mean it is a failure. It just means your journey together may be at an end.

[whichwayisup]

I had lunch with a couple of close friends today. All three of us are BW's and the topic came up because of Sandra and Jessie.

 

I have seen posts on LS claiming that all men will cheat if given the chance. What if that is true? I don't really think that is the case, but for now, let's just says it is. If all men cheat, then all wives are BW's. If all wives are BW's then maybe it's just the way it is. What does that mean to the BW's? If it's true, then it would mean that once married, we would have to accept that it's inevitable that a husband will have an affair. Should we take it personally if it's just part of married life? I really don't know. In some way if BW's knew that all men cheat, then I think it would take some of the pain of betrayal away. It would also help the BW with the question "why did he do it?". The answer would be, because that is what all MM do.

 

How would it make an OW feel knowing that all MM cheat (if that is indeed the truth)?

 

Honestly I think it all comes down to have each man feels about sex in general. If it is very high on their priority list and they aren't getting it at home, then eventually if the opporunity presents itself and they feel they can get away with it, they'll do it.

 

If a guy doesn't make sex number one and isn't getting enough of it at home, I believe they won't cheat because they just don't want to and aren't one to sleep around period.

 

Just my 2 cents.

[ladydesigner]

Honestly I think it all comes down to have each man feels about sex in general. If it is very high on their priority list and they aren't getting it at home, then eventually if the opporunity presents itself and they feel they can get away with it, they'll do it.

 

If a guy doesn't make sex number one and isn't getting enough of it at home, I believe they won't cheat because they just don't want to and aren't one to sleep around period.

 

Just my 2 cents.

 

I agree with this too. I believe my H has a VERY high sex drive and I do not, never have. Sex is his number 1 priority and when the sex part waned in our M is when he cheated.

[silktricks]

This is great! We discussed this a lunch as well. I believe there may be some truth to it. If the trill wasn't there, would some people not have affairs?

Some people, I'm sure would not. I don't think they (all men) necessarily have affairs for love or sex - they have them for excitement. Our lives - frankly - are quite dull. We get up, go to work, come home, eat, have sex, go to sleep... well.... yeah there's a lot more than that, but there isn't for most people the threat of imminent loss of life or limb at any moment. I believe that some people require excitement and even threat to feel alive....

 

 

 

How about this: Let's say (hypothetically), as part of a marriage contract, each spouse was given one free pass to cheat. Would everyone use it, or would they hold on to it? Seems to me this scenario works well for the OW. I would think that a MM with one free pass would have to find a very special woman to use that pass on. Or, would many man take that pass to the grave because they would always wonder if there was someone better to use it on? This is not meant to slam anyone, just for discussion.

Are you kidding? Most guys I know would spend it the moment they got it...

 

Kind of like, if you could go back and change one thing in your life. Would you use it or hold on to it just in case you needed it later?

I'd use it, and know EXACTLY what I'd use it on!! In fact, I've known that particular item for the last 35+ years!!

[Owl]

Sandra and Jessie? Your friends?

 

 

 

Back in my home country, this is how it is in certain areas / cultures. Polygamy is legal, so men can - and often do - have several Ws, but usually GFs on the side as well. The Ws know that this is likely to be the case, and accept it as such - provided that "they don't have to know". They don't want to know that he has a GF, they don't want her (the GF) flaunted in her (the W's) face, they don't want to know about any time or assets spent on the GF. They want the MM to provide well for them (the W/s) and their kids, and they want him to do right by them before he spends any extra loving on any GFs. And, since everyone is at least potentially in the same boat, there is o shame, no embarrassment, nothing to hide about that. It's part of the package of being a W in those areas / cultures. When girls are initiated, they're told about this, told to accept it with the role, and told how a dignified W responds. (When men are initiated, they're told never to take more Ws than they can afford, always to seek the permission of the 1st W before taking another W, and to support their parents, their kids - from all sources - and their Ws, before spending extras on their GFs).

 

How do the GFs feel? Well, many of them choose to be GFs rather than Ws, because they get the romance rather than the domestic drudgery (it's a very patriarchal culture! GFs still retain their own agency to make their own decisions about their careers, their kids, their lives - whereas Ws must defer to their Hs - despite a national constitution which gives them equal rights) while still getting taken care of materially (especially if they have kids with the MM) though some do prefer to be "elevated" to W status. M is more of a socio-economic arrangement than a romantic match, and Ms are often forged for political, economic or social reasons (to bring two powerful, potentially rival, families into alliance, say) rather than because of "love".

 

I think both the GFs and the Ws feel superior to each other, from what I've been told by various GFs and various Ws (though, as I said, some GFs who have MMs kids sometimes prefer - and engineer - an "re-grade" to W status especially if they feel he may be losing interest in them...!) The Ws feel superior because they have the legal status, the rights to inherit property themselves (not just via their kids, who all have that right whether "legitimate" or not), housing on the homestead as part of the extended family, and other such benefits. The GFs feel superior because they were chosen for "love", they get the fun stuff and the romance and the treats, they get to keep their own homes, their friends, their families and their careers, and their kids (if any) are well taken care of besides.

 

Do all men in those cultures / areas "cheat"? i couldn't say conclusively, but certainly most do. I've not personally met any that don't. Those that disapprove of that kind of lifestyle - thinking it "backward" or "oppressive" tend to move to the cities and live the same bland, modern lifestyle you'd find anywhere else in the world.

 

Well, I'm really not sure if posting is wise...we'll see if I can manage it today without an infraction or ban.

 

But I wanted to ask you, OW...given all of this above...is it truly considered "cheating" in your country for a man to "step out" in his marriage?

 

If the wife knows and accepts it...if it's an agreed upon thing...is it cheating?

 

Or just another form of "open marriage"?

[reboot]

If the wife knows and accepts it...if it's an agreed upon thing...is it cheating?

 

Or just another form of "open marriage"?

 

Exactly what I was thinking.

[Spark1111]

Well, here is another rub: In many countries where it is expected or accepted that a man will have a mistress on the side, why are those many of the same countries that a wife is stoned to death for percieved flirting with another man?

 

And in the countries where there is no stoning to death of the woman, I believe it is still LESS acceptable for a woman to step outside of the marriage.

 

Why? Because women are suppose to ACCEPT that a man will stray for sex with someone new, or that he has a higher sex drive, or whatever. It is the expectation that permits it, I think.

 

But now women are joining the ranks of infidelity in record numbers because of entry into the work place, the internet and other avenues previously unavailable to them. And the rates are climbing significantly, but the expectation is not yet the same I think.

 

So unless both parties agree to having this option in the marriage beforehand, it still feels like a betrayal, whether you be a man or a woman, IMHO.

[Owl]

 

So unless both parties agree to having this option in the marriage beforehand, it still feels like a betrayal, whether you be a man or a woman, IMHO.

 

Something to consider...it might feel like a betrayal to YOU...and to me for that matter...but not to the wife that was raised in that culture, and taught a different set of expectations than what you and I were raised with.

 

That doesn't make her wrong, or us right.

 

It just means that your expectations are set by the culture/society you were raised in.

 

Which is why I raise the question over whether or not infidelity is actually considered cheating in a society where it's encouraged/expected/accepted as a standard behavior?

 

I'd say that it would be more likely that women raised in that society would EXPECT their men to 'stray'...and accept it as normal when it happens. And...probably not feel betrayed when it happens either.

 

The "open marriage" concept.

 

It's not a betrayal if it's expected/accepted/agreed upon. I don't believe it could be considered "cheating" either in those cases.

 

In a culture where monogamy is expected and taught as a value...violating that WOULD be a betrayal, and cheating.

 

Not saying either is right or wrong...it would depend on the values you were raised with AND the culture in which you're currently living.

[Got it]

Well, here is another rub: In many countries where it is expected or accepted that a man will have a mistress on the side, why are those many of the same countries that a wife is stoned to death for percieved flirting with another man?

 

And in the countries where there is no stoning to death of the woman, I believe it is still LESS acceptable for a woman to step outside of the marriage.

 

Why? Because women are suppose to ACCEPT that a man will stray for sex with someone new, or that he has a higher sex drive, or whatever. It is the expectation that permits it, I think.

 

But now women are joining the ranks of infidelity in record numbers because of entry into the work place, the internet and other avenues previously unavailable to them. And the rates are climbing significantly, but the expectation is not yet the same I think.

 

So unless both parties agree to having this option in the marriage beforehand, it still feels like a betrayal, whether you be a man or a woman, IMHO.

 

No women have more options in all facets of their lives due to the ability to earn a paycheck and thusly not be dependent on someone else for themselves or their offspring. Money, for all people, allow freedoms otherwise unexistent.

 

How do we know the infidelity rates are raising for either sex? Can you post those stats?

[Got it]

Something to consider...it might feel like a betrayal to YOU...and to me for that matter...but not to the wife that was raised in that culture, and taught a different set of expectations than what you and I were raised with.

 

That doesn't make her wrong, or us right.

 

It just means that your expectations are set by the culture/society you were raised in.

 

Which is why I raise the question over whether or not infidelity is actually considered cheating in a society where it's encouraged/expected/accepted as a standard behavior?

 

I'd say that it would be more likely that women raised in that society would EXPECT their men to 'stray'...and accept it as normal when it happens. And...probably not feel betrayed when it happens either.

 

The "open marriage" concept.

 

It's not a betrayal if it's expected/accepted/agreed upon. I don't believe it could be considered "cheating" either in those cases.

 

In a culture where monogamy is expected and taught as a value...violating that WOULD be a betrayal, and cheating.

 

Not saying either is right or wrong...it would depend on the values you were raised with AND the culture in which you're currently living.

 

I guess you would argue, then, that if they were marriages in a church or other setting that, in the vows covered sexual fidelity, then yes it would still be unacceptable though society "okays" it.

 

There have been affairs for ages even though the Church has always indicated that it is wrong. The act may be wrong but the social norms may not have it set up as punishable.

[silktricks]

Something to consider...it might feel like a betrayal to YOU...and to me for that matter...but not to the wife that was raised in that culture, and taught a different set of expectations than what you and I were raised with.

 

That doesn't make her wrong, or us right.

 

It just means that your expectations are set by the culture/society you were raised in.

Which is why I raise the question over whether or not infidelity is actually considered cheating in a society where it's encouraged/expected/accepted as a standard behavior?

 

I'd say that it would be more likely that women raised in that society would EXPECT their men to 'stray'...and accept it as normal when it happens. And...probably not feel betrayed when it happens either.

 

The "open marriage" concept.

 

It's not a betrayal if it's expected/accepted/agreed upon. I don't believe it could be considered "cheating" either in those cases.

 

In a culture where monogamy is expected and taught as a value...violating that WOULD be a betrayal, and cheating.

 

Not saying either is right or wrong...it would depend on the values you were raised with AND the culture in which you're currently living.

 

Thank-you OWL (and it's nice to see you). Those were the points I was attempting to make. I believe some of the original cultures of the South Pacific had more of these types of values (but I'm not really sure, never having actually studied any of them)...

[Woggle]

All men do not cheat. I have never cheated on a woman in my life and I could if I wanted to. I just don't believe in betraying people. I also know just as many women that cheat as men do. Sadly it is pretty much common these days. This whole deal that men are biologically programmed to cheat is just as an excuse. Women have their own excuses for cheating as well which usually have to do with emotions.