Author herenow Posted March 25, 2010 Author Posted March 25, 2010 Wow...how do I put this properly....it wasn't a "shock" to me because I knew it could happen, as I had been hurt in dating R's all of the time...man BBNB, I began to think there was something wrong with me...you know? Bent, I think I got used to it....wow Thanks HN, thinking there is gonna be some healing from this topic...and possibly greater understanding. It is one thing to be in a "wrong" M and one of the S's finds another...yet A's in almost every R I've ever had.... Hope this isn't a tj HN, but I am getting a lot out of this.... No, not a TJ at all. I'm glad you are getting a lot out of it. Talking about this at lunch opened my mind to a possibility that I have always believed impossible. It's actually kind of liberating to go out on that limb and accept something may be reality, that you don't want to believe is true. Kind of a weird feeling. KWIM? I'm not saying that all BW's should go home and forgive their H's for being men. Not at all, they don't get a free pass even if they all do it. Which I still hope they don't.
Lizzie60 Posted March 25, 2010 Posted March 25, 2010 Again.. I have not read the thread.. but my take is that not all men cheat.. but MOST men cheat.. I would say about 95% of men cheat.. and probably 99% would, if they had the opportunity and knowing their SO would never ever find out..
MizzBlue72 Posted March 25, 2010 Posted March 25, 2010 I think it depends on the cultural that you love in. My ex inlaws lived in France. It was openly known that men over there had wives and a mistress. I don't if everyone did it, but I know the society that they lived in everyone did. Seemed strange.
Author herenow Posted March 25, 2010 Author Posted March 25, 2010 Again.. I have not read the thread.. but my take is that not all men cheat.. but MOST men cheat.. I would say about 95% of men cheat.. and probably 99% would, if they had the opportunity and knowing their SO would never ever find out.. What would keep the 1% from cheating? What keeps the 5% from cheating?
Lizzie60 Posted March 25, 2010 Posted March 25, 2010 What would keep the 1% from cheating? What keeps the 5% from cheating? Probably because they can't... (obese, ugly, too shy, etc.)
Author herenow Posted March 25, 2010 Author Posted March 25, 2010 I think it depends on the cultural that you love in. My ex inlaws lived in France. It was openly known that men over there had wives and a mistress. I don't if everyone did it, but I know the society that they lived in everyone did. Seemed strange. Funny you should say that. One of my friend's H's OW's told my friend's H "this is what they do in France, so don't feel bad". I guess he didn't feel bad, until his wife found out. He is no longer a MM.
Author herenow Posted March 25, 2010 Author Posted March 25, 2010 Probably because they can't... (obese, ugly, too shy, etc.) So you agree that every man who has the opportunity (and ability) to cheat would do it?
Author herenow Posted March 25, 2010 Author Posted March 25, 2010 Funny you should say that. One of my friend's H's OW's told my friend's H "this is what they do in France, so don't feel bad". I guess he didn't feel bad, until his wife found out. He is no longer a MM. And he isn't in France (never was).
pureinheart Posted March 25, 2010 Posted March 25, 2010 That's the way I see things at work as well. But when I was honest with people I trust about my H's affair, I was surprised at some of the honesty I got back. I would like to think that what I see is reality (that many men are faithful), but know really knows for sure? Again, exploring a hypothetical that may or may not be reality. It was interesting as I thought about the "beginning" days (early 80's) everyone was D'ing, having EMR's the whole nine yards....I was M'ed and was not a part of all of the partying at the time...and I would like to meantion in my line of work, we worked a lot of O/T and in close/confined quarters...partying was a big part of the EMR's....I say R's as most of these people eventually got together, it was rarely about one night stands. As we all aged and the evidence of STD's and such, this stuff began to dwindle as a lot of the partying did also as we could get into trouble and loose our jobs. Actually HN, I think your reality has a great deal of truth in it, a very real foundation. Also would like to add that the "BS's" in some cases were having EMR's...all I have to say is it was a trip, quite the experience...and I was unable to keep up with who was with who...I just kept to myself and my life and M (one could help but hear the gossip though).
Lizzie60 Posted March 25, 2010 Posted March 25, 2010 So you agree that every man who has the opportunity (and ability) to cheat would do it? Totally...
White Flower Posted March 25, 2010 Posted March 25, 2010 I had lunch with a couple of close friends today. All three of us are BW's and the topic came up because of Sandra and Jessie. I have seen posts on LS claiming that all men will cheat if given the chance. What if that is true? I don't really think that is the case, but for now, let's just says it is. If all men cheat, then all wives are BW's. If all wives are BW's then maybe it's just the way it is. What does that mean to the BW's? If it's true, then it would mean that once married, we would have to accept that it's inevitable that a husband will have an affair. Should we take it personally if it's just part of married life? I really don't know. In some way if BW's knew that all men cheat, then I think it would take some of the pain of betrayal away. It would also help the BW with the question "why did he do it?". The answer would be, because that is what all MM do. How would it make an OW feel knowing that all MM cheat (if that is indeed the truth)? My guess is that most of the time it isn't personal anyway. He is either looking for the 'right' connection since he chose for idealized reasons as a young man and didn't know to look for other imortant qualities such as common interests or chemistry. Unless he is a blamer, the 'crime' against his W is not personal oftentimes. He may go through many OW as well and while she may think it is personal (after all, he persued her most often) and he may think it is personal with each one he may or may not find the 'right' one for quite a long time. But it would seem (and I don't know the stats TBH) that many cheaters are first-time cheaters and wouldn't risk cheating until they at least thought they found the 'right' one the first time out. But maybe my answer is better suited for another thread? So I read your question again. How would it make an OW feel knowing that all MM cheat ? If that 'is what MM do' then I suppose nobody would feel like the 'right' one or special. Cheating wouldn't be all that illicit because it would be so everyday and blasé. And it might make me feel like there is no purpose in M, so why M other than to have children? Alternately, if it were the norm, we might all be OW as well as W. And if that were the norm the whole world would be cheating AND feel as though they were entitled to it because after all we all want equality. Then we would do away with M altogether. I wonder how men would answer the question if you posed it in the reverse?
JustJoe Posted March 25, 2010 Posted March 25, 2010 Ms. Lizzie, I disagree. I'm just now exiting my first and only affair, and I wouldn't do it again, for Helen of Troy.
pureinheart Posted March 25, 2010 Posted March 25, 2010 That's the way I see things at work as well. But when I was honest with people I trust about my H's affair, I was surprised at some of the honesty I got back. I would like to think that what I see is reality (that many men are faithful), but know really knows for sure? Again, exploring a hypothetical that may or may not be reality. Thanks HN for this thread, it really helped me not to see men as such bad people, and sorry to all you guys out there for sterio typing even now. There is a slight better understanding as to the shock involved during D-Day, this was foriegn to me as I had become used to it. Also want to clarify a couple of comments I made in this thread...when saying they guys saw me as one of the guys and saw that they "looked", didn't mean they were looking at me ...lol. Also, I thinks HN's reality of men not always cheating is fact...they don't. Re-reading what I wrote, saw it could be misinterpreted. I was hurt a lot and saw things in that manor, and have possibly been a "hater" to some degree. You just become numb to all of it. So desiring to connect and fear due to being laid-off so much (finances), I made bad choices at times, the red flags were waving quite clearly. You know, the phrase,"one size doesn't fit all" would be quite appropriate in this thread...to say that all men are a particular way or do a particular thing might be way off as everyones convictions are different....with that I am sure that all men, not even most have A's or even one night stands. Cool! I think we are getting somewhere with all of the great threads lately.....
Just a stone's throw Posted March 25, 2010 Posted March 25, 2010 But... but... if this theory has truth to it and as someone said the MM is given the free pass from the beginning (or MW for that manner) to cheat (which technically it's not cheating if you've been given the free pass, it's like an open marriage) would less people cheat? If it weren't for the thrill of doing something that someone could make a big deal about (because it's widely accepted as just the way it is, would less people feel the need to go outside the marriage? Would just knowing you could if you wanted to keep you from going there?
OWoman Posted March 25, 2010 Posted March 25, 2010 I had lunch with a couple of close friends today. All three of us are BW's and the topic came up because of Sandra and Jessie. Sandra and Jessie? Your friends? I have seen posts on LS claiming that all men will cheat if given the chance. What if that is true? I don't really think that is the case, but for now, let's just says it is. If all men cheat, then all wives are BW's. If all wives are BW's then maybe it's just the way it is. What does that mean to the BW's? If it's true, then it would mean that once married, we would have to accept that it's inevitable that a husband will have an affair. Should we take it personally if it's just part of married life? I really don't know. In some way if BW's knew that all men cheat, then I think it would take some of the pain of betrayal away. It would also help the BW with the question "why did he do it?". The answer would be, because that is what all MM do. How would it make an OW feel knowing that all MM cheat (if that is indeed the truth)? Back in my home country, this is how it is in certain areas / cultures. Polygamy is legal, so men can - and often do - have several Ws, but usually GFs on the side as well. The Ws know that this is likely to be the case, and accept it as such - provided that "they don't have to know". They don't want to know that he has a GF, they don't want her (the GF) flaunted in her (the W's) face, they don't want to know about any time or assets spent on the GF. They want the MM to provide well for them (the W/s) and their kids, and they want him to do right by them before he spends any extra loving on any GFs. And, since everyone is at least potentially in the same boat, there is o shame, no embarrassment, nothing to hide about that. It's part of the package of being a W in those areas / cultures. When girls are initiated, they're told about this, told to accept it with the role, and told how a dignified W responds. (When men are initiated, they're told never to take more Ws than they can afford, always to seek the permission of the 1st W before taking another W, and to support their parents, their kids - from all sources - and their Ws, before spending extras on their GFs). How do the GFs feel? Well, many of them choose to be GFs rather than Ws, because they get the romance rather than the domestic drudgery (it's a very patriarchal culture! GFs still retain their own agency to make their own decisions about their careers, their kids, their lives - whereas Ws must defer to their Hs - despite a national constitution which gives them equal rights) while still getting taken care of materially (especially if they have kids with the MM) though some do prefer to be "elevated" to W status. M is more of a socio-economic arrangement than a romantic match, and Ms are often forged for political, economic or social reasons (to bring two powerful, potentially rival, families into alliance, say) rather than because of "love". I think both the GFs and the Ws feel superior to each other, from what I've been told by various GFs and various Ws (though, as I said, some GFs who have MMs kids sometimes prefer - and engineer - an "re-grade" to W status especially if they feel he may be losing interest in them...!) The Ws feel superior because they have the legal status, the rights to inherit property themselves (not just via their kids, who all have that right whether "legitimate" or not), housing on the homestead as part of the extended family, and other such benefits. The GFs feel superior because they were chosen for "love", they get the fun stuff and the romance and the treats, they get to keep their own homes, their friends, their families and their careers, and their kids (if any) are well taken care of besides. Do all men in those cultures / areas "cheat"? i couldn't say conclusively, but certainly most do. I've not personally met any that don't. Those that disapprove of that kind of lifestyle - thinking it "backward" or "oppressive" tend to move to the cities and live the same bland, modern lifestyle you'd find anywhere else in the world.
Lizzie60 Posted March 25, 2010 Posted March 25, 2010 Ms. Lizzie, I disagree. I'm just now exiting my first and only affair, and I wouldn't do it again, for Helen of Troy. Well.. you already had your affair.. so you're in the stats..
Hazyhead Posted March 25, 2010 Posted March 25, 2010 If it were true (I too would like to think not), and it is the result of 'uncontrollable urges', or whatever, then is it certain to happen again, and again... ? Would it be easier to just forgive again with this in mind?
reboot Posted March 25, 2010 Posted March 25, 2010 I suppose you'll have to take my word for it, but I'm neither obese, nor ugly, nor shy, and I've never cheated on my wife. And yes, I've had opportunities. I know plenty of other men that have never cheated, and, knowing them like I do, it would shock me if they did. I also know plenty of men who have. My best friend since High School has cheated on his wife over and over. She stopped having sex with him at some point, and he said, hey, I'm gonna get it somewhere..... My only point is, some people here just can't help but constantly make outlandish claims. To say that 95-99% of men will cheat, and the rest only don't because they can't get anyone, is just utterly ridiculous. Some of us have the ability to choose to be human, and not an alley cat.
OWoman Posted March 25, 2010 Posted March 25, 2010 I suppose you'll have to take my word for it, but I'm neither obese, nor ugly, nor shy, and I've never cheated on my wife. And yes, I've had opportunities. Reeb I'm sure you're a beauty to behold, but I've never ever heard a guy say that the reason they can't get laid is because they're obese / ugly / weird / hideous in whatever way. I honestly think that men lack the gene that allows them to recognise those characteristics in themselves (or their best buddies!)
2sure Posted March 25, 2010 Posted March 25, 2010 Ok, lets assume that all men CAN cheat just for the sake of discussion. Same of course, goes for women. At the same time lets take a couple considering marriage. Ideally, all the cards on the table ( ok, ok, if you are young and its your first time out maybe not) . Many things are discussed prior to marriage - finances, children, goals, expectations, values etc. Those things plus what you have learned about your partner are the TERMS of the CONTRACT that is marriage. You have made a conscious decision based on these terms. For me, its not so much the cheating. Sex with someone else is not necessarily a deal breaker for me. As long as I know about it. Good or bad, as long as I am part of that decision. In other words...even if it was common knowledge, assumed, typically accepted that people would have some kind of relations with others...OK, that could be dealt with , decided, negotiated, PRIOR to the contract. Or at least...on the table and renegotiated, or the "contract" dissolved if one partners terms change. When that doesnt happen, its way more than cheating. So now, we have to not just say all people can cheat - but that all people are liars, untrustworthy, unreliable , and capable of betraying all that hold them dear. On a whim.
silktricks Posted March 25, 2010 Posted March 25, 2010 Good question(s) HN. First, I don't believe that all men cheat - I do believe that many men cheat, and I also believe that most (and probably all) men have at least thought of cheating - but I don't believe that all actually DO cheat. Now, that said... If all men do cheat then I think it would cause some changes in perceptions. BW's would not necessarily experience the same shame - but I believe that would depend somewhat upon who the husband chose as his mistress. The wife would probably want the husband to select a mistress who was good looking, had good position, etc. The OW would also not experience the same shame. She would not need to be hidden from society as most are (not all, but most). She would also probably not expect or even necessarily want the MM to leave his marriage for her (I know, all don't want that, but it seems most do), as she would already be an accepted part of his life. Marriage would be different. I would be much more openly a requirement for children and security as opposed to love. Marriage for love would probably diminish, and I would venture to say that marriages may become based more upon genetics (desiring healthy intelligent children) and finances. I do not believe that it would disappear, though. Oh yes, and I believe more married women would take lovers as well...
reboot Posted March 25, 2010 Posted March 25, 2010 Reeb I'm sure you're a beauty to behold, but I've never ever heard a guy say that the reason they can't get laid is because they're obese / ugly / weird / hideous in whatever way. I honestly think that men lack the gene that allows them to recognise those characteristics in themselves (or their best buddies!) I'm not really sure how you twisted what I said into "I can't get laid".
OWoman Posted March 25, 2010 Posted March 25, 2010 I'm not really sure how you twisted what I said into "I can't get laid". :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Snowflower Posted March 25, 2010 Posted March 25, 2010 No, not a TJ at all. I'm glad you are getting a lot out of it. Talking about this at lunch opened my mind to a possibility that I have always believed impossible. It's actually kind of liberating to go out on that limb and accept something may be reality, that you don't want to believe is true. Kind of a weird feeling. KWIM? I'm not saying that all BW's should go home and forgive their H's for being men. Not at all, they don't get a free pass even if they all do it. Which I still hope they don't. This is an interesting thread and I really like read the different POV presented here. HN, I think I understand exactly what you are saying above. It would make me feel 'better' or 'liberated' if this was was reality. And it does feel weird. Actually though, I'm very cynical about long-term marriages being affair-free. Whenever I hear about someone being married for a long time, say 30 years or more, I think to myself, 'hmmm, and I wonder if there was any cheating in that marriage?' Or, if I hear of someone getting divorced I wonder to myself, "okay, which spouse had the affair?" I know, I'm still in the jaded phase-even though my marriage is recovery nicely. I'm hoping this phase will pass but my H's affair has completely changed my outlook about marriage. Funny you should say that. One of my friend's H's OW's told my friend's H "this is what they do in France, so don't feel bad". I guess he didn't feel bad, until his wife found out. He is no longer a MM. HN, is he no longer a married man because he stopped the affair or because he got divorced (or both)? It was interesting as I thought about the "beginning" days (early 80's) everyone was D'ing, having EMR's the whole nine yards....I was M'ed and was not a part of all of the partying at the time...and I would like to meantion in my line of work, we worked a lot of O/T and in close/confined quarters...partying was a big part of the EMR's....I say R's as most of these people eventually got together, it was rarely about one night stands. As we all aged and the evidence of STD's and such, this stuff began to dwindle as a lot of the partying did also as we could get into trouble and loose our jobs. This was kind of what I was alluding to in my first post on this thread--that there was some type of culture shift away from soaring divorce rates and the accompanying infidelity. I was too young to have been married during this time that you describe above, but I do remember my friends growing up who all had parents who divorced. My parents stayed married but I remember the whole divorce epidemic. That divorce culture seemed to have disappeared but I wonder if it is coming back somehow--and the fact that it seems like more people are having affairs is part of this. It's just an idea...I have no idea if it is reality, but it sometimes seems like it.
atlnay Posted March 25, 2010 Posted March 25, 2010 How would it make an OW feel knowing that all MM cheat (if that is indeed the truth)? As an OW, I don't think all men cheat, but I get that men have high sex drives & are driven to spread their seed. That's biology pure & simple. When or if I ever get married, I would never leave my husband for "cheating". Nor am I saying I would tolerate a serial cheater, but if I he is the man of my dreams in every other way, we'll work it out. I joke w/my MM now about not letting any "others" mess this up. So if he is "cheating" on me too, whatever. It is what it is.
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