Whoa, DDay, was not expecting it

[Chrome Barracuda]

OMG WTF??? Chrome, when are YOU going to understand it wasn't the sleeping with the sister that gets her. It was the keeping the secret about it that crosses the line in an open M. Open=no secrets. Period.

 

WTF so let me get this straight she's cool with him sleeping with family members, but isnt cool with the fact he kept it a secret?!?

 

WTF you know how backwards that sounds in the real world. Did she think that open marriage without boundries with sleeping with whoever would make them happy would have no problems???

 

Did you honestly believe he would tell the truth, if anything by keeping the marriage open you have given him permission to cheat, what's lying under the bigger premise condoned cheating? WTF? You obviously have much bigger issues to deal with because lying is the least of your worries, she's in denial. i get that WF. let this be my last post. it's very toxic and backwards in here. ive said my piece, goodbye.

[Clep]

You don't sound harsh, you sound unknowing. The fact that you think you sound harsh highlights that. I have different morals then you, sex isn't some sacred thing to me. Love is something that is meant to be shared and celebrated, not hidden and scorned. To me, the idea that you own someone else simply due to being married to them is immoral and a set up for failure. It doesn't hurt my feels any at all that you disagree with me on this issue.

 

If you had read everything you would know that the emotional came before the physical. I do not believe that being open caused this to happen or if we hadn't been open if it still would have happened. All it did was make this pretty much the ONLY way he could cheat. The openness is simply a fact about our relationship, neither the cause or the effect of the cheating both physical and emotional.

 

As for my friend, is the situation better then hers? I don't know. All I know is hers would be my deal breaker, mine would be her dealbreaker and I find that to be interesting. And I actually like my friend's husband because I don't think his actions and words are meant to be cruel, he just doesn't think about them first. I see why she stays just as she sees why I stay, but neither of us could deal with the other's situation. So on an intellectual level, I find it interesting. It was forefront on my mind because I wrote it after she and I had dinner together and we both talked about our situations. And oddly enough I hurt more for her then I did me, and I found that interesting. She is hurting more then me right now, what he's doing is cutting her core self. And it makes me want to cry for her. She feels similarly towards me, and has did cry a little as I was talking to her about it. But we both also understand why we stay. Love.

 

As for my sister....She is my sister. I could no more hate her then I would hate myself. I would eventually like to sit down and hash this out. I have a feeling that it won't be soon, probably over this summer when we see each other again. The fact that I would tell the family isn't about bitterness. Its the fact that I feel no shame in what happened. It is not my fault. I am not to blame. If sis decides she is going to be ugly about this, I'm not afraid of making it know. It has nothing to do with bitterness. Its about facing the truth.

 

As for calling her? She's the favorite aunt, and she is a good aunt. I'm not going to keep my kids from her just because she and I might have a problem.

 

You know what? Unlike most people I can look at a whole situation and see that one mistake does not make someone horrible. H has a whole lifetime with me showing me very many positive things. Why should this one mistake ruin all of it? H is remorseful for his lying, he is remorseful for falling in love with her and he is remorseful for letting it go physical. He wishes with everything he has that it hadn't happened. But all that remorse doesn't change that it did happen. But it also is still just one small blip in the 14 years we have been a couple. Why should this mistake, be more powerful then all the positive things he did?

 

CCL

 

I read the whole thread before replying and am aware the emotional came before the physical. The way I see it, both are wrong. I guess since you don't see sex as sacred and I do is the real difference between us.

 

Me trying to let you know I wasn't trying to be harsh had nothing to do with being unknowing.

 

I don't think I would be wanting my children around someone that did not even consider them before doing something that threatens their sense of security and current life. I could not imagine befriending someone that would screw over my children.

 

One mistake or many doesn't make anyone horrible...you are right. There are mistakes that threaten my emotional state and that of my children as well as the security of my family, that would not make that person right to have in my life.

 

I can't see him to be remorseful at all since he is not willing to give her up. That is not remorse to me, but selfish and hurtful in the extreme.

[crazycatlady]

I read the whole thread before replying and am aware the emotional came before the physical. The way I see it, both are wrong. I guess since you don't see sex as sacred and I do is the real difference between us.

 

Me trying to let you know I wasn't trying to be harsh had nothing to do with being unknowing.

 

I don't think I would be wanting my children around someone that did not even consider them before doing something that threatens their sense of security and current life. I could not imagine befriending someone that would screw over my children.

 

One mistake or many doesn't make anyone horrible...you are right. There are mistakes that threaten my emotional state and that of my children as well as the security of my family, that would not make that person right to have in my life.

 

I can't see him to be remorseful at all since he is not willing to give her up. That is not remorse to me, but selfish and hurtful in the extreme.

 

Its more then just sex not being sacred. I also think love should be celebrated. Its a whole different way of looking at all of it, not just one small section.

 

The kids are out of it. Its not going to be something that touches them. Part of why I'm talking about this here is because it gives me a place to talk about it away from them. It also gives me a chance to work things through in my head. I'm not 100% certain I'm staying in the end. I do not know what I can handle when it comes down to it. But my handling it or not will not affect the kids. I will leave before things get nasty so that we can make sure that we work things out the way that would be best for the kids without us being bitter and angry with each other. That means keeping a close eye on my own feelings. And what I can and can't deal with, questioning it, talking about it, weighing my feelings.

 

The statement about not giving her up...I understand where that was coming from. Its hard to explain but it basically stems from his being tired of fighting and lying about it all. He's already tried to give her up repeatedly on his own and couldn't do it. But I also don't think remorseful and selfish are mutually exclusive. Humans are more complex then that. I also don't think I own him. I don't think he owns me. All I can decide is if I can handle it or not. The jury is still out.

 

And while hurt by all of this, I'm not that emotionally fragile that this would threaten me emotionally. That said, I don't have to make my peace with her, I don't have to work on trusting her again, to see if I can make things work. I can take her as things comes, with everything she says with a grain of salt.

 

XXOO - I know, but like I said earlier, limits are interesting. And to me, the cheating is the least of it, physical and emotional. It really is a just. Now who it is, that is more of a problem and some hurt. The lying and deceit that went with it, that's where the hurt really happened. Continuing....that is also something I haven't figure out yet. Or even if I will have to figure it out. Still in the air, and right now, not top priority.

 

And yes, some rationalization has to be done, just not as much as most people assume. I'm not in denial on how I feel about what happened, and what's going on now.

 

But right now it feels like this is just a repeat over and over of things said before, on both sides. So until/unless something new comes up, I think I'm done with this for now. I will update though if my sister finally talks to me

 

CCL

[Owl]

Your pain is actually pretty much typical for most BS's...it's the lying and deception that hurts the most.

 

I get that the actual "act" wasn't so much the issue for you as the cover up before and after.

 

My question for you tho is how you intend to recover your marriage while allowing the "affair" to continue.

 

If he remains in contact with her, the emotional side of that WILL continue, and your marriage will stand a very small chance to recover.

 

I want to make sure I understand here. I get that you don't mind so much if he were to continue the physical side of this relationship with her...but are you ok with him continuing the emotional affair that's been ongoing? Even if he were to do so "out in the open"...that's still going to erode YOUR emotional relationship with him.

 

No judgements here. I recognize that your views on marriage are different than mine.

 

I just want to get an understanding on what your plan to recover your marriage is?

[OWoman]

CCL - I admire the authenticity with which you live, and with which you approach your love life. I hope your integrity and compassion carry you through this difficult time with the dignity you have shown here.

 

(((((hugs)))))

[crazycatlady]

Your pain is actually pretty much typical for most BS's...it's the lying and deception that hurts the most.

 

I get that the actual "act" wasn't so much the issue for you as the cover up before and after.

 

My question for you tho is how you intend to recover your marriage while allowing the "affair" to continue.

 

If he remains in contact with her, the emotional side of that WILL continue, and your marriage will stand a very small chance to recover.

 

I want to make sure I understand here. I get that you don't mind so much if he were to continue the physical side of this relationship with her...but are you ok with him continuing the emotional affair that's been ongoing? Even if he were to do so "out in the open"...that's still going to erode YOUR emotional relationship with him.

 

No judgements here. I recognize that your views on marriage are different than mine.

 

I just want to get an understanding on what your plan to recover your marriage is?

 

I don't know, Owl. And that's why I'm not 100% sure I will stay. I am talking to him a lot more. I'm not sure how much of this is a monogamous (emotionally) person learning to cope with a poly person and how much of it is because of who it is.

 

I know there is adjustment for being a mono with a poly. I am happy being mono. Intellectually I fully grasp why he loves another as well as me. Intellectually I fully grasp that I am prime in his life and consideration is to me first. Intellectually I fully grasp that his loving her - or anyone else - does not diminish his loving me nor does it mean I lack anything or that I'm not enough. I think it would have been easier to accept if it had been above board from the beginning.

 

We are talking right now. I'm being honest with him about my feelings. Like last night, I let him know that I was feeling really insecure by everything. He's trying in his best way to reassure me that We have a life together, we are talking future plans, we are spending more time just together...I could use more, but I'm unsure of what exactly I need to be reassured. Or even if I can be reassured. Something to find out. I'm currently not feeling that way.

 

In all of of this our attraction to each other has still been the usual high attraction. One of the things that ticked me off the most was the fact that he let his guilt get in the way of his desire. And for most of the last year I was the one initiating sex. That didn't help with my insecurity. So lately he's been starting it and he's doing great at reading my moods on what I need and sex has been geared towards that. We aren't snugglers normally in our sleep, but lately I've been waking up and finding him on my side of the bed (its a king so we have definate sides) and just barely touching me. As if he's reassuring himself that I'm still there. I find it interesting that he's the one seeking me out in our sleep and not the other way around.

 

BUT will all that and more be enough? I don't know. I know we are trying. I know I'm trying. But I'm gone if I start feeling resentful or bitter. Some negative emotions are ok, but if they start lingering and not going away then its time to rethink things. And honestly, I don't know how hard it would be to let go and walk away and if I can do it. I don't want to yoyo that's not good for the kids either. So I'm waiting for right now. And working on it.

 

CCL

[crazycatlady]

CCL - I admire the authenticity with which you live, and with which you approach your love life. I hope your integrity and compassion carry you through this difficult time with the dignity you have shown here.

 

(((((hugs)))))

 

 

OW - thankyou for your kind words. I've always respected your posts and how you come across on here so it means alot to hear that from you.

 

No matter what happens H and I are bonded by love and by children and our lives will always be entwined. Together or apart, there is no escaping that fact. And given how I feel about him and he me, I would rather figure out together.

 

And hey, there's a plus side....our sex life is back on track which no matter what puts a smile on my face and makes me feel good.

[Tashcw]

WTF so let me get this straight she's cool with him sleeping with family members, but isnt cool with the fact he kept it a secret?!?

 

WTF you know how backwards that sounds in the real world. Did she think that open marriage without boundries with sleeping with whoever would make them happy would have no problems???

 

Did you honestly believe he would tell the truth, if anything by keeping the marriage open you have given him permission to cheat, what's lying under the bigger premise condoned cheating? WTF? You obviously have much bigger issues to deal with because lying is the least of your worries, she's in denial. i get that WF. let this be my last post. it's very toxic and backwards in here. ive said my piece, goodbye.

 

CCL - a week ago, and before reading this thread I would have been in complete agreement with CB (above).

 

But, an article I read the other day stated, statistically (US survey), cheating occurs in over 80% of marriages by one partner and / or the other. The article finished by saying it was about time that people stopped looking at monogomy and faithfulness as the norm, as it most certainly wasn't the case in this day and age.

 

Monogomy may be IDEAL - to fall in love with that one special person and be completely and utterly besotted by them for life - and the thought of cheating / open marriages almost repulsive to 'most', but websites like this show that sadly (in my opinion) it's about time we faced up to the fact this is old fashioned thinking and tried to figure out ways of dealing with it.

 

Therefore I think CB is wrong. I think most of us live in the backward world and people like CCL are showing us the way forward with confidence, integrity and understanding that people can love more than one person, but whilst keeping their other half as their first priority.

 

I know I would never, ever have the self-esteem or confidence to be in an open relationship, but am I (and others like me) just setting ourselves up for a 4/5 chance of cheating / being cheated upon and all the lies / emotional trauma that come with that? Imagine how much worse CCL would be feeling now if it wasn't only the lying she had to deal with, but having to accept the physical act too - at least there is a part she is able to come to terms with immediately.

 

I salute you CCL and hope you start to feel better soon, no matter what the outcome.

[Clep]

CCL -

 

But, an article I read the other day stated, statistically (US survey), cheating occurs in over 80% of marriages by one partner and / or the other. The article finished by saying it was about time that people stopped looking at monogomy and faithfulness as the norm, as it most certainly wasn't the case in this day and age.

 

 

This in my opinion is the exact mentality that has led to consistent desensitization. That has led to a multitude of criminal, moral and emotional problems that is leading slowly but surely to the downfall of man.

 

We desensitize, then throw out the "norm" and settle for less and less, until we settle for nothing. A single person or society that stands for nothing will settle for anything.

[Owl]

I don't know, Owl. And that's why I'm not 100% sure I will stay. I am talking to him a lot more. I'm not sure how much of this is a monogamous (emotionally) person learning to cope with a poly person and how much of it is because of who it is.

 

Here's where we might not agree. I don't buy into some people being "mono" and some being "poly". I believe that all people are entirely CAPABLE of being either. It's what they CHOOSE to be, not what they HAVE to be.

 

And it's about expectations in a relationship.

 

If you're willing to ACCEPT (and expect) the other person to "be poly"...that's fine. But if you're not willing to accept it (which most people aren't)...then you shouldn't let someone use a label as an excuse for behavior that hurts you.

 

He COULD choose to love just you, IF HE WANTED TO. Or if he thought the pain of losing you was greater than the benefits of being "poly" with your sister.

 

In other words...one reason he's maintaining that he can't help himself is because he's not suffering any repercussions for cheating on you. You're enabling his choice to emotionally (and physically) be unfaithful. He has no reason to change...there's no benefit to changing his behaviors, no downside to keeping to what others would consider cake-eating.

 

I know there is adjustment for being a mono with a poly. I am happy being mono. Intellectually I fully grasp why he loves another as well as me. Intellectually I fully grasp that I am prime in his life and consideration is to me first. Intellectually I fully grasp that his loving her - or anyone else - does not diminish his loving me nor does it mean I lack anything or that I'm not enough. I think it would have been easier to accept if it had been above board from the beginning.

 

Again, I disagree. His loving her DOES diminish his love for you. Every bit of himself, of his love that he invests in his relationship with her is love that is NOT invested in his relationship with you.

 

Look at "normal" cheating relationships. Most BS's "sense" when their spouse is cheating...because they can sense the emotional deficit created when their spouse begins investing in the other person INSTEAD of investing in them.

 

Investing in one relationship takes away from what was/is/should be invested in the other.

 

His loving her DOES detract in his relationship to you. Proportionally so, in fact.

 

We are talking right now. I'm being honest with him about my feelings. Like last night, I let him know that I was feeling really insecure by everything. He's trying in his best way to reassure me that We have a life together, we are talking future plans, we are spending more time just together...I could use more, but I'm unsure of what exactly I need to be reassured. Or even if I can be reassured. Something to find out. I'm currently not feeling that way.

 

In all of of this our attraction to each other has still been the usual high attraction. One of the things that ticked me off the most was the fact that he let his guilt get in the way of his desire. And for most of the last year I was the one initiating sex. That didn't help with my insecurity. So lately he's been starting it and he's doing great at reading my moods on what I need and sex has been geared towards that. We aren't snugglers normally in our sleep, but lately I've been waking up and finding him on my side of the bed (its a king so we have definate sides) and just barely touching me. As if he's reassuring himself that I'm still there. I find it interesting that he's the one seeking me out in our sleep and not the other way around.

 

BUT will all that and more be enough? I don't know. I know we are trying. I know I'm trying. But I'm gone if I start feeling resentful or bitter. Some negative emotions are ok, but if they start lingering and not going away then its time to rethink things. And honestly, I don't know how hard it would be to let go and walk away and if I can do it. I don't want to yoyo that's not good for the kids either. So I'm waiting for right now. And working on it.

 

CCL

 

Its great that he's now suddenly trying to put all this effort into fixing things. But it raises the question as to how much of it is a true re-investment into his relationship with you, and how much of it is a smokescreen to reduce any pressure you MIGHT have exerted on him to end the relationship with your sister if he didn't do so?

 

Again, I understand the concepts of an open marriage. But I also am a decent student of human behavior...and open marriage aside, the dynamics of a relationship are pretty constant, and this situation still remains pretty typical of any other 'cheating' one that I've seen as well.

 

You're betrayed by his lies and deception more than you are by his act. He continues to demonstrate to you all of the reasons why you should let him keep this situation as it has been...with him having you AND your sister. You're struggling with what your best next steps are.

 

The future is actually entirely up to you. YOU decide what you'll accept in your life. Will you accept him as "poly" and continue to enable his ability to maintain whatever 'relationships' he wants, or will you set expectations and boundaries in what you'll accept from a partner in your relationship?

[crazycatlady]

Here's where we might not agree. I don't buy into some people being "mono" and some being "poly". I believe that all people are entirely CAPABLE of being either. It's what they CHOOSE to be, not what they HAVE to be.

 

I disagree, I don't think its a choice from everything that I've read about it and with our experiences with it. Now he could choose not to act on it, he could choose to ignore it, or to try and stiffle the feelings much as you would in a situation where it wasn't returned, but having them I don't think is a choice. I like other people a whole lot, but I could never feel for two people how I feel for my H. Its not a choice either for me.

 

 

That was my whole point, I have to figure out what I can and can't accept. It has nothing to do with him, he's finally accepted himself for who he is, not always an easy thing to do, and now its my turn. If it hurts me, I don't stay. I am fairly certain that I'm staying. I'm not hurting now.

 

He COULD choose to love just you, IF HE WANTED TO. Or if he thought the pain of losing you was greater than the benefits of being "poly" with your sister.

 

I do not own him. We both have those choices to make. I will not tell him its her or me or I'll leave. I will either stay because I can deal, or I will leave. After that he can choose what he wants to do.

 

In other words...one reason he's maintaining that he can't help himself is because he's not suffering any repercussions for cheating on you. You're enabling his choice to emotionally (and physically) be unfaithful. He has no reason to change...there's no benefit to changing his behaviors, no downside to keeping to what others would consider cake-eating.

 

And that is my choice to do so. I don't mind is cake-eating for the most part because it does benefit me, whether you can believe it or not. As I've said, I have no ownership of him nor him of me. We are together because we wish to be together. And will remain together for as long as we wish to be together. And even then we will always be a part of each other through love and children. His happiness makes me happy, just as my happiness gives him pleasure in return.

 

Again, I disagree. His loving her DOES diminish his love for you. Every bit of himself, of his love that he invests in his relationship with her is love that is NOT invested in his relationship with you.

 

His love for me is not diminished simply due to loving her. I have no needs not met due to his loving her, I have no desires not matched, I have a fully joint partner to help co-parent our children, he sacrifices for me and I for him much as any other relationship is done. The one thing that will not happen again, is my core needs not being met first and foremost. He has always stated that was his priority to both me and her. And everyone else who has come along. One of the things he has apologized so much for is the fact that during the worse of his internal conflict for all of this was the fact that during that time my needs were not being met. But also during this time was more then just the affair and the lying going on. There were several other issues as well.

 

But now that its all out in the open, its much easier to work things out so that we both have what we need and want. Open communication is so important in all relationships, doubly so in open and poly ones. And I can see it working with time and effort. I also think its worth the work.

 

Look at "normal" cheating relationships. Most BS's "sense" when their spouse is cheating...because they can sense the emotional deficit created when their spouse begins investing in the other person INSTEAD of investing in them.

 

Investing in one relationship takes away from what was/is/should be invested in the other.

 

That's saying that having a good friendship takes away from a relationship between a couple. I invest a fair amount of time and effort into my friendships because they are important to me. But I'm not harming my relationship with my H because of my relationships with my friends. He knows that keeping those friendships up helps me stay happy and sane and contect etc.

 

I knew he cared about her before he admitted it, and I KNEW he cheated with her because well, I know him. I know him very well. There was an emotional deficit during the lying because he was so guilt ridden, not because they were investing emotionally into each other - heck they barely spoke during a lot of the time. Conflicts inside himself caused the emotional deficit not the loving her as well.

 

Now that its out and in the open, it easier to make sure home is good so that the extras can be tended. The extras being good makes the home that much better.

 

Its great that he's now suddenly trying to put all this effort into fixing things. But it raises the question as to how much of it is a true re-investment into his relationship with you, and how much of it is a smokescreen to reduce any pressure you MIGHT have exerted on him to end the relationship with your sister if he didn't do so?

 

None of it. I have had it proven to me in several ways.

 

Again, I understand the concepts of an open marriage. But I also am a decent student of human behavior...and open marriage aside, the dynamics of a relationship are pretty constant, and this situation still remains pretty typical of any other 'cheating' one that I've seen as well.

 

You're betrayed by his lies and deception more than you are by his act. He continues to demonstrate to you all of the reasons why you should let him keep this situation as it has been...with him having you AND your sister. You're struggling with what your best next steps are.

 

The future is actually entirely up to you. YOU decide what you'll accept in your life. Will you accept him as "poly" and continue to enable his ability to maintain whatever 'relationships' he wants, or will you set expectations and boundaries in what you'll accept from a partner in your relationship?

 

You are aware that open and poly are two seperate things?

 

And yes the lies and deception is the kicker. Which is why his behavior isn't the issue. Part of the lies and the deceptions were from how I handled things a year ago when I knew he had and didn't even give him a chance to answer before I started talking about how that would be so over the line it wouldn't be funny and how I couldn't deal with that...after the fact it had been done. And he fully admits it was the stupidest thing he had done. Had he come home and told me immediately, the situation would have been very ugly. It probably was better long run for us how it did happen, because it gave me time on my own to process.

 

And I did put down limits. I will not and probably can not accept an equal. His primary focus is here. His primary is me. But that was never questioned. He always told her, and everyone else, that I am not replacable or removable. It was good our limits matched.

 

I did not mean to bring this all back up, but I wanted to answer your post and the things you said. It was a few days because we went out of town unexpectedly for a spur of the moment road trip for the heck of it. It was fun.

 

CCL

[fooled once]

CCL - a week ago, and before reading this thread I would have been in complete agreement with CB (above).

 

But, an article I read the other day stated, statistically (US survey), cheating occurs in over 80% of marriages by one partner and / or the other. The article finished by saying it was about time that people stopped looking at monogomy and faithfulness as the norm, as it most certainly wasn't the case in this day and age.

 

Monogomy may be IDEAL - to fall in love with that one special person and be completely and utterly besotted by them for life - and the thought of cheating / open marriages almost repulsive to 'most', but websites like this show that sadly (in my opinion) it's about time we faced up to the fact this is old fashioned thinking and tried to figure out ways of dealing with it.

 

Therefore I think CB is wrong. I think most of us live in the backward world and people like CCL are showing us the way forward with confidence, integrity and understanding that people can love more than one person, but whilst keeping their other half as their first priority.

 

I know I would never, ever have the self-esteem or confidence to be in an open relationship, but am I (and others like me) just setting ourselves up for a 4/5 chance of cheating / being cheated upon and all the lies / emotional trauma that come with that? Imagine how much worse CCL would be feeling now if it wasn't only the lying she had to deal with, but having to accept the physical act too - at least there is a part she is able to come to terms with immediately.

 

I salute you CCL and hope you start to feel better soon, no matter what the outcome.

 

Here's where we might not agree. I don't buy into some people being "mono" and some being "poly". I believe that all people are entirely CAPABLE of being either. It's what they CHOOSE to be, not what they HAVE to be.

 

And it's about expectations in a relationship.

 

If you're willing to ACCEPT (and expect) the other person to "be poly"...that's fine. But if you're not willing to accept it (which most people aren't)...then you shouldn't let someone use a label as an excuse for behavior that hurts you.

 

He COULD choose to love just you, IF HE WANTED TO. Or if he thought the pain of losing you was greater than the benefits of being "poly" with your sister.

 

In other words...one reason he's maintaining that he can't help himself is because he's not suffering any repercussions for cheating on you. You're enabling his choice to emotionally (and physically) be unfaithful. He has no reason to change...there's no benefit to changing his behaviors, no downside to keeping to what others would consider cake-eating.

 

 

 

Again, I disagree. His loving her DOES diminish his love for you. Every bit of himself, of his love that he invests in his relationship with her is love that is NOT invested in his relationship with you.

 

Look at "normal" cheating relationships. Most BS's "sense" when their spouse is cheating...because they can sense the emotional deficit created when their spouse begins investing in the other person INSTEAD of investing in them.

 

Investing in one relationship takes away from what was/is/should be invested in the other.

 

His loving her DOES detract in his relationship to you. Proportionally so, in fact.

 

Its great that he's now suddenly trying to put all this effort into fixing things. But it raises the question as to how much of it is a true re-investment into his relationship with you, and how much of it is a smokescreen to reduce any pressure you MIGHT have exerted on him to end the relationship with your sister if he didn't do so?

 

Again, I understand the concepts of an open marriage. But I also am a decent student of human behavior...and open marriage aside, the dynamics of a relationship are pretty constant, and this situation still remains pretty typical of any other 'cheating' one that I've seen as well.

 

You're betrayed by his lies and deception more than you are by his act. He continues to demonstrate to you all of the reasons why you should let him keep this situation as it has been...with him having you AND your sister. You're struggling with what your best next steps are.

 

The future is actually entirely up to you. YOU decide what you'll accept in your life. Will you accept him as "poly" and continue to enable his ability to maintain whatever 'relationships' he wants, or will you set expectations and boundaries in what you'll accept from a partner in your relationship?

 

Bold #1 - I disagree. There is no written rule you MUST stay with a person if you stop loving them. There is this new thing called a divorce. WHY are so many quick to cheat vs divorce? That is what I don't understand.

 

Owl's Post - totally agree with it.

 

And last thought - why do some continually bring up OWNING someone? I don't get that. Just because you expect the person you have chosen to spend your life with to be faithful to you doesn't equate to owning to me. To me, that is a flimsy excuse for cheaters to use "he/she doesn't own me".

 

I love my H. He loves me. We don't own each other -- we choose to be together. If we decide we don't love each other anymore or we don't want to be married, we would divorce. Our minds wouldn't go to cheating.

 

I don't understand this owning argument. I also don't believe in the poly life style either; and if someone wants to do that -- it isn't up to me to tell them it is wrong or whatever - as long as it isn't affecting MY life. I don't want it in my life - I prefer to have my monogomous relationship .. that way I don't feel insecure, unwanted or not enough for my H. I also don't understand if people want this lifestyle, why bother marrying?

[NoIDidn't]

This in my opinion is the exact mentality that has led to consistent desensitization. That has led to a multitude of criminal, moral and emotional problems that is leading slowly but surely to the downfall of man.

 

We desensitize, then throw out the "norm" and settle for less and less, until we settle for nothing. A single person or society that stands for nothing will settle for anything.

 

I think we should start a new thread on this, as it is an interesting consideration on its own. Which forum, though?

[xxoo]

And last thought - why do some continually bring up OWNING someone? I don't get that. Just because you expect the person you have chosen to spend your life with to be faithful to you doesn't equate to owning to me. To me, that is a flimsy excuse for cheaters to use "he/she doesn't own me".

 

I agree. It has nothing to do with "owning", and everything to do with respecting pre-agreed upon boundaries in the relationship. If he can not live within those boundaries, then he is free to leave. Going outside the boundaries under the rationalization that we don't "own" each other is unacceptable.

 

CCL, I understand that, in your situation, it is more about the deception than the sex or the person. But your relationship is set up in such a way that there would have been no deception if not for the person the sex was with. So I don't really get how it can be separated out. The deception was necessitated by the person he chose.

 

It just really gets me that, with only a few people in the world off-limits, he chose one of those few people outside the boundaries. How could that choice not be meaningful?

[crazycatlady]

I agree. It has nothing to do with "owning", and everything to do with respecting pre-agreed upon boundaries in the relationship. If he can not live within those boundaries, then he is free to leave. Going outside the boundaries under the rationalization that we don't "own" each other is unacceptable.

 

CCL, I understand that, in your situation, it is more about the deception than the sex or the person. But your relationship is set up in such a way that there would have been no deception if not for the person the sex was with. So I don't really get how it can be separated out. The deception was necessitated by the person he chose.

 

It just really gets me that, with only a few people in the world off-limits, he chose one of those few people outside the boundaries. How could that choice not be meaningful?

 

I know how this started. Which makes it a lot easier to understand. In a lot of ways my sister and I are rather similar in personality - I am more stable, and more mature, but for the most part we are similar in humor intelligence etc. H was deployed a few years ago, during that time my sister was working nights, which H was awake working due to the time change. So while we had a few hours to email back and forth, they had 12 hours. I thought it was great that they were talking.

 

Whereas we tended to talk about the kids and missing each other and it was difficult especially since I was going through a really rough time with our son and school, and lots of other things, our convos were not light and fun. They got to talk about fun stuff and joke, and everything not serious. Like the type of things he and I use to talk about. She was able to provide something that I didn't and probably couldn't that appealed to him and still appeals to him.

 

For him that's when the feelings started to develope. Nothing serious, just feelings and really he felt no conflict or guilt over it because it didn't hamper in any way our love, there was no conflict. Before that he's always felt protective over her. He claims he doesn't feel white knightish, but I think there is a part of him that does, he does like to protect and rescue. And she definately has needed that over the years.

 

I don't think he really thought much of it until they slept together. He says they weren't drinking much....I don't know who started it. I know he was probably thinking he could do it and it not be a big deal. I think what made it a big deal with the lying. I think the lying and hiding and trying to deny and at the same time wanting it more built it up way bigger then it would have been.

 

The own concept....Lets see if I can explain. Sure there are boundries, but I can't force him to not cross over them. I can't demand that he not cross over them. All I can do is react when/if he crosses over them. And figure out which boundries are truly important, and which aren't. I don't think I have the right to say "You can't do this" I do have the right to say "I do not have to take you doing that". And the boundries I'm absolutely positive about being firm for my own sanity I have laid out and why I can't take it. They aren't boundries he can easily hid from either. Its going to be obvious if he crosses them. I don't see him doing that. As for the rest, right now I'm willing to be open minded about it and carry on an open and honest dialogue with him on how I feel.

 

I am still waiting to talk with her. I've called several times now and am not getting a response. She's "chatting" with me on FB but that's rather safe right now.

 

Some things have happened between H and I that I feel very hopeful about. We are connecting better now then we have since this started, and probably better then that. I think this has really opened up his eyes to what I bring to him and he has a great appreciation of me. Which is good because its about darn time he did because I'm simply amazing .

 

CCL

[xxoo]

I know he was probably thinking he could do it and it not be a big deal. I think what made it a big deal with the lying.

 

But why did he lie?

[Owl]

The own concept....Lets see if I can explain. Sure there are boundries, but I can't force him to not cross over them. I can't demand that he not cross over them. All I can do is react when/if he crosses over them. And figure out which boundries are truly important, and which aren't. I don't think I have the right to say "You can't do this" I do have the right to say "I do not have to take you doing that". And the boundries I'm absolutely positive about being firm for my own sanity I have laid out and why I can't take it. They aren't boundries he can easily hid from either. Its going to be obvious if he crosses them. I don't see him doing that. As for the rest, right now I'm willing to be open minded about it and carry on an open and honest dialogue with him on how I feel.

 

I completely agree with this, but there's a key element left out. I can't control my wife either. I can set boundaries out of what I'll accept of her behavior in our relationship. For example, if she were to engage in another emotional affair, I would end the relationship.

 

I think the issues in your situation are two fold.

 

First, I think your boundaries are soft, and not clearly defined. Given that you have an open marriage, that makes identifying boundaries a little more difficult than it is in a marriage under usual circumstances. Everyone usually has a clear cut understanding of what's expected in a monogamous relationship, but in an "open" one, there are many areas that need to be agreed upon. By agreeing that he may be "poly"...you're further softening those boundaries by making leeway that you might not have accepted in someone who was not.

 

Second, boundaries without consequences are WORSE than useless. They aggravate a situation.

 

No one cares about crossing a boundary if they know (or suspect) that it won't be enforced with some kind of consequence.

 

Your H probably gave little concern to the boundary about your sister for these reasons. You'd already accepted some boundaries that others wouldn't to begin with...and then compounded it by not enforcing the boundary with firm consequences when it was crossed.

 

I'm not saying that you're to blame for his actions...please don't take it that way.

 

But I am saying that you can't expect a change if there is no impetus to do so.

 

This has been an interesting conversation...I wish you the best of luck!

[NoIDidn't]

I completely agree with this, but there's a key element left out. I can't control my wife either. I can set boundaries out of what I'll accept of her behavior in our relationship. For example, if she were to engage in another emotional affair, I would end the relationship.

 

I think the issues in your situation are two fold.

 

First, I think your boundaries are soft, and not clearly defined. Given that you have an open marriage, that makes identifying boundaries a little more difficult than it is in a marriage under usual circumstances. Everyone usually has a clear cut understanding of what's expected in a monogamous relationship, but in an "open" one, there are many areas that need to be agreed upon. By agreeing that he may be "poly"...you're further softening those boundaries by making leeway that you might not have accepted in someone who was not.

 

Second, boundaries without consequences are WORSE than useless. They aggravate a situation.

 

No one cares about crossing a boundary if they know (or suspect) that it won't be enforced with some kind of consequence.

 

Your H probably gave little concern to the boundary about your sister for these reasons. You'd already accepted some boundaries that others wouldn't to begin with...and then compounded it by not enforcing the boundary with firm consequences when it was crossed.

 

I'm not saying that you're to blame for his actions...please don't take it that way.

 

But I am saying that you can't expect a change if there is no impetus to do so.

 

This has been an interesting conversation...I wish you the best of luck!

 

Great post! ITA.

 

It doesn't seem that he's had any consequences in this situation. The sister either. Lots of emotional tip-toeing going on, IMO.

 

I totally agree with the "poly" comment. It further erodes whatever boundary that could be in place about what's acceptable or not in an open situation. Being open isn't synonymous with being "poly". I'm aware that they also aren't mutually exclusive.

 

CCL, you agreed to an open marriage, not a poly one, right? I'm not saying that you don't have the right to decide to accept that he may be poly, its just that it seems like he could have said that upfront.

[crazycatlady]

But why did he lie?

 

I think I caused that. When he was visiting home, both mine and his, when the physical affair started, I just KNEW it was happening. And when he got back I confronted him. Said he better not have slept with my sister because that's the one thing i couldn't deal with. Well, faced with that, heck yeah he lied. He lied hoping it would burn out quickly. He lied hoping I would never find out. He lied and was sick basically for the next year and some change. He had trouble keeping down food, he had trouble eating, if he ate it tended to go straight through him. I figured it was from his gall bladder being removed, but now that its out and in the open those issues have all vanished.

 

I'm also settling down on the lying thing. Because no I couldn't have handled it then, I couldn't have handled confrentation when I found out. I needed the 6 months I had to deal with this in my own way. I understand that no one gets it but I think even if we had seperated over this we would have ended up back together. I just saved some steps.

 

I completely agree with this, but there's a key element left out. I can't control my wife either. I can set boundaries out of what I'll accept of her behavior in our relationship. For example, if she were to engage in another emotional affair, I would end the relationship.

 

I think the issues in your situation are two fold.

 

First, I think your boundaries are soft, and not clearly defined. Given that you have an open marriage, that makes identifying boundaries a little more difficult than it is in a marriage under usual circumstances. Everyone usually has a clear cut understanding of what's expected in a monogamous relationship, but in an "open" one, there are many areas that need to be agreed upon. By agreeing that he may be "poly"...you're further softening those boundaries by making leeway that you might not have accepted in someone who was not.

 

Second, boundaries without consequences are WORSE than useless. They aggravate a situation.

 

No one cares about crossing a boundary if they know (or suspect) that it won't be enforced with some kind of consequence.

 

Your H probably gave little concern to the boundary about your sister for these reasons. You'd already accepted some boundaries that others wouldn't to begin with...and then compounded it by not enforcing the boundary with firm consequences when it was crossed.

 

I'm not saying that you're to blame for his actions...please don't take it that way.

 

But I am saying that you can't expect a change if there is no impetus to do so.

 

This has been an interesting conversation...I wish you the best of luck!

 

It had never occured to him that I would leave. And when I told him I was considering it, he was floored. He knew I would be upset, but since he loved me as much as always wanted me as much as always needed me as much as always, it never occured to him that I wouldn't deal with it as much as always.

 

I liked that my thought of leaving floored him. It is important for him to know that. I think that was the selfishness on his part, thinking that loving each other was all that was needed in the end. And its probably right, but at the same time, he was shaken that I was looking at apartments and checking finances.

 

In some ways, yes I am to blame because I've let the boundries be soft.

And I'm ok with being part of the blame. Nothing is ever 100%

 

Great post! ITA.

 

It doesn't seem that he's had any consequences in this situation. The sister either. Lots of emotional tip-toeing going on, IMO.

 

I totally agree with the "poly" comment. It further erodes whatever boundary that could be in place about what's acceptable or not in an open situation. Being open isn't synonymous with being "poly". I'm aware that they also aren't mutually exclusive.

 

CCL, you agreed to an open marriage, not a poly one, right? I'm not saying that you don't have the right to decide to accept that he may be poly, its just that it seems like he could have said that upfront.

 

Yep, agreed to open - it was a joint decision. He should have come to me way before on the poly thing. In fact I think for the longest time he's wanted to talk about it, but was afraid or didn't get it or something.

 

it was from being here talking to someone here that was in a poly that helped me understand more about it. And the more I read the more I figured it was something we could do if handled correctly and it was something I could accept.

 

I think it is something that I had to approach on my own though. I would have struggled hearing it come from him. Is that the best way to handle things? Probably not. I think he was relying on the whole "I love you, you love me, everything will come out in the wash as long as that is true". Especially since I'm not built that way.

 

I don't mind the discussion, but every now and then I feel like I'm being grilled and/or judged which leads me to be snippy with my answers.

 

I will say over the past week some things have happened that have really made me feel good about our relationship. He's starting to not take me for granted on his own, not because I'm demanding it. I'm feeling more comfortable approaching him about my own issues, something I've always struggled with in the past.

 

I'm still irritated at sis. She will not talk to me (latest excuse, since i'm on the phone all day for work I don't like to talk on the phone) all done through fb. I think the fact that she isn't talking to me is showing H something. He tells me when they get in contact - one of the things I did ask for. Its done very causually so hopefully not something he will feel resentful about later on. But their contact is dwindling. I don't think she liked he told.

 

Its been an interesting discussion and its helped me a lot to work through issues that I have.

 

ccl

[xxoo]

I think I caused that. When he was visiting home, both mine and his, when the physical affair started, I just KNEW it was happening. And when he got back I confronted him. Said he better not have slept with my sister because that's the one thing i couldn't deal with. Well, faced with that, heck yeah he lied.

 

So, before that conversation, there was never any boundary stated about sleeping with your sister? He could reasonably think that would be an ok choice, and he could be honest about, and was shocked to hear--after the fact--that you couldn't handle him sleeping with your sister?

 

I can't wrap my head around anyone thinking it is ok to sleep with their spouse's sister without some serious discussion about it first

[Adunaphel]

Crazycatlady,

I am under the impression that your H is trying to take advantage of your being very understanding.

 

You love him, and he knows. You seem to want him to be happy, and he knows. You are a very understanding person, and he knows.

 

He also surely knows you are not feeling confortable in the situation, he surely must know your sister has a thing for men who are married to someone else, and - if he is not completely stupid - he must know he crossed boundaries.

 

It sounds like you love him so much you are trying hard to make excuses for him - for the lying, and for... well, risking to put in danger the relationship you have with your sister. For breaking boundaries.

 

I do not have much to say, but please try to think in the most selfish way you can (as your H *is* acting selfishly and certainly not like your feelings are his primary interest) and remember that you have the right to feel as you wish.

I mean, if you genuinely feel okay, is one thing, if you feel like you *have* to feel okay (I get this feeling from you posts, sorry), it is different.

He crossed boundaries, and as he broke his part of the deal it is among your rights to rethink your own part of the deal, if you feel like doing so.

You sound like you are incapable of feeling anger... take it as a compliment, and not as criticism, but I hope you are not just suppressing anger or denying it!

[crazycatlady]

So, before that conversation, there was never any boundary stated about sleeping with your sister? He could reasonably think that would be an ok choice, and he could be honest about, and was shocked to hear--after the fact--that you couldn't handle him sleeping with your sister?

 

I can't wrap my head around anyone thinking it is ok to sleep with their spouse's sister without some serious discussion about it first

 

Ohhh I'm warped but that made me laugh. I might have caused that too. Because I have pointed out in the past that she fits his idealized woman physically except her butt is a little flat and didn't go "but don't sleep with her".

 

Oh in seriousness....I've no idea why he did it. I asked him how he could do something so f'ing stupid and he had no answer just that he doesn't know and if he could go back and change it he would but....you can't.

 

I think at the time he thought he could do it, get it out of his system and be done with it and I would never know. He was wrong. I knew from the beginning, though I did accept his answer originally even with my doubts. That is gone forever. I will always double check things for now one. Blind acceptance is done with. I'm sad about that but heck I had to grow up sometime.

 

And this is easier to deal with then some issues we had about 7 or so years ago.

 

CCL

[crazycatlady]

Crazycatlady,

I am under the impression that your H is trying to take advantage of your being very understanding.

 

You love him, and he knows. You seem to want him to be happy, and he knows. You are a very understanding person, and he knows.

 

He also surely knows you are not feeling confortable in the situation, he surely must know your sister has a thing for men who are married to someone else, and - if he is not completely stupid - he must know he crossed boundaries.

 

It sounds like you love him so much you are trying hard to make excuses for him - for the lying, and for... well, risking to put in danger the relationship you have with your sister. For breaking boundaries.

 

I do not have much to say, but please try to think in the most selfish way you can (as your H *is* acting selfishly and certainly not like your feelings are his primary interest) and remember that you have the right to feel as you wish.

I mean, if you genuinely feel okay, is one thing, if you feel like you *have* to feel okay (I get this feeling from you posts, sorry), it is different.

He crossed boundaries, and as he broke his part of the deal it is among your rights to rethink your own part of the deal, if you feel like doing so.

You sound like you are incapable of feeling anger... take it as a compliment, and not as criticism, but I hope you are not just suppressing anger or denying it!

 

I am very capable of feeling anger. Oh trust me there. I have a horrid temper. But I really haven't been that angry at him. And any troubles with my sister is resting on her shoulders for the lack of communicating with me now that its out and in the open.

 

He was surprised I thought of leaving and went so far to look for apartments. There was a part of me that actually liked the idea. Because my kids would stay here with him...and just no worries about anyone but myself was appealing for a moment.

 

Being okay verses have to be okay, I get what you are saying and think I get why you are thinking I'm feeling I have to be okay. I also know I'm within my rights to change the agreement we have since he broke it. I'm just kinda using this as my way to just get it out so I can look at it, ponder it and figure things out so I'm not constantly dwelling on it. Its hard to do this in person because of kiddos.

 

I think its important to figure out what you can and can't live with, and then live with it. I think its wrong to flip flop and go back and forth for ages. I don't like to live like that. Its not fair to him, its really not fair to me and who cares if its fair to her. So that is also part of it. I do have some (not as much now, but definately a week ago) disconnect with how I thought and how I felt. Logically I felt one way and emotionally I felt another. This is not something new for me but it can be tough to deal with without being able to talk and bounce things around.

 

And oh yes he was so selfish in getting us all into this situation. He's a selfish person sometimes. I knew it going into the marriage, oddly enough its part of his appeal to me. Strange as it sounds, it helps ME be selfish too. Something I needed to learn. And being with me is teaching him to be less selfish even though when he slips he slips to epic proportion.

 

Several very important things have happened this past week. Some sacrificies made on his part for me, things I never asked for, never would have asked for, wouldn't have thought of, until he did them. Plus the general feeling of peace coming from him, the feeling of being where he wants. I am pleased and hopeful.

 

CCL

[Adunaphel]

I am impressed. And I'll keep following the thread, I just hope that whatever turn the events take, you will be happy with the situation and have peace of mind!

[crazycatlady]

I am impressed. And I'll keep following the thread, I just hope that whatever turn the events take, you will be happy with the situation and have peace of mind!

 

While I don't think life can be had without some pain, scraps and bruises - otherwise man you are just sitting on the sidelines, how boring - I also think its way to short to be unhappy and miserible. I promised him and made him promise me that if things get to the point where unhappiness is the dominate emotion (pain sadness etc) with no idea how it will change, that before the bitterness sets in, we go our seperate ways. We both understand the importance to leave before the bitter so that we will have an easier time co-parenting children. Pain is fine, bitterness is unacceptable. Its one of the deals we have made because of this.

 

Oh and I have a confession to make. the other reason I'm so chatty on here is because I'm avoiding laundry Specifically folding laundry. I hate that chore. But I've run out of room on the couch to stick clean laundry so I've got to start folding.

 

CCL