Author crazycatlady Posted March 23, 2010 Author Posted March 23, 2010 Oh CL - good luck to you!! Open Marriages - yeah, they CAN work. I know some people that do have these types of arrangements. Looks like you really need to re-visit the ground rules. Did you specifically have any prior to this? If not - set some SOLID ones now. Ones that you both agree too and will not break. If you guys can not come to a decision on the basic rules, then this will not work. I know you are more of a woman than I am. Open marriage or not - if my sister messed with my H?? Nooooo ... I don't think I could forgive her. Either I forgive both, or I forgive neither. I know we have some work to do. And its going to take some time. I do appreciate what you say - but give this some real thought... Your H does not have the monopoly on giving you enjoyment. So just wanted to flag that up - most guys that you date or marry would give it to you too, but would never feel the need to share you or to sleep with your sister, so the enjoyment alone is no reason to stay. In fact, imagine you had only ever eaten fatburgers with a milkshake, and thought you liked it so turned down a gourmet fillet steak with champagne because you thought you were good with what you had... Sorry to hear what you are going through.. I know he doesn't have the monopoly on givng me enjoyment. But right now he does have the monopoly of my heart and my love. This didn't kill it. And right now the love is enough to put up with this and to work and try and find a solution. When it ceases to be, then I'm done. CCL Now how the heck did i get two quotes in here?
carhill Posted March 23, 2010 Posted March 23, 2010 Backstory for those not familiar (like me) Wow, when I opine only those in a marriage truly know what's going on in that marriage, I'll punch up this as an example. All I can do is offer my support and hope that you find a path healthy for you. So I'm clear, you're monogamous emotionally and sexually and have no interest in the marriage being 'open' to other lovers for yourself? If yes, is that part of the agreement, or have you talked about such matters, even in the abstract? IOW, should you meet a man or woman (I read somewhere that you are bi-sexual; correct me as appropriate), your H is OK with you being 'open' as well, if you choose? Perhaps all this needs further discussion. Anyway, hugs and best wishes
Hazyhead Posted March 23, 2010 Posted March 23, 2010 You amaze me CCL. You sound so centred and calm, and I can very much believe that your husband would not want you to divorce him. I wish you the best in choosing a path that's best for you. I truly hope he appreciated what he has in you... or comes to appreciate it quickly.
Author crazycatlady Posted March 23, 2010 Author Posted March 23, 2010 Backstory for those not familiar (like me) Wow, when I opine only those in a marriage truly know what's going on in that marriage, I'll punch up this as an example. All I can do is offer my support and hope that you find a path healthy for you. So I'm clear, you're monogamous emotionally and sexually and have no interest in the marriage being 'open' to other lovers for yourself? If yes, is that part of the agreement, or have you talked about such matters, even in the abstract? IOW, should you meet a man or woman (I read somewhere that you are bi-sexual; correct me as appropriate), your H is OK with you being 'open' as well, if you choose? Perhaps all this needs further discussion. Anyway, hugs and best wishes I figured it out how to multi quote. Awesome! *happy dance* I'm so easily amused. I am monogamous emotionally, open sexually. And as far as I'm aware, I would be allowed to seek another emotional love, but I don't think I'm really wired that way. Unless my first love wants to come back...but that's someone my little sister had a crush on too, so many not. Thankyou for finding and posting my back story. Oddly enough, that title was wrong. By then he did know I know, or at least knew some of it. You amaze me CCL. You sound so centred and calm, and I can very much believe that your husband would not want you to divorce him. I wish you the best in choosing a path that's best for you. I truly hope he appreciated what he has in you... or comes to appreciate it quickly. Centered and calm? I haven't felt centered and calm today. I have felt that I've run the gambit of emotions today. I've gone through the initial crying, the numb I can't believe this is happening, the panic and fight or flight, and then the horniness of I'm still alive we are still together we can make everything work hysteria. All in the course of ummmm, 18 or so hours. But some of the speed is because I've had a chance already to deal with this possibility. I'm becoming calmer now. CCL
CarrieT Posted March 23, 2010 Posted March 23, 2010 What I thought I knew was that an open marriage was when a H and W bring in a third party for their MUTUAL pleasure. That's not what's happening here, obviously. So maybe I'm totally wrong on that. Not necessarily totally wrong. Every open marriage is different, playing by different rules. The base rule, however, is complete openness and honesty. My marriage was open and we brought people in TOGETHER but we also occasionally had SEPARATE encounters. But at the end of the day, we were completely open and honest about the people we were seeing before and after. There was never a question that my husband did not know where I was -- or with whom -- when I was not at home. We also had the mandate that if there was someone that one of us was interested in pursuing but the other had qualms about it, he/she had the right to nix that encounter. It worked for us until my husband started lying about it and sleeping with other men, without protection.
Author crazycatlady Posted March 23, 2010 Author Posted March 23, 2010 I'm not sure I'm going to add much here as I am very confused about open marriages. What I thought I knew was that an open marriage was when a H and W bring in a third party for their MUTUAL pleasure. That's not what's happening here, obviously. So maybe I'm totally wrong on that. And you can't just label this as an affair, because of the open marriage. While I don't understand it, in a way it reminds me of polygamy. Except in this case, your sister wife is your biological sister, and doesn't live as part of the household. CCL, can you reconcile yourself with living like that? I dunno... I may be far off... Just ignore me if I am.That's what happens when I watch HBO. Open marriages can run a range of things. Originally it was simply we were open to outside lovers of any different type - together, apart, watching. Always suppose to be upfront about it - thus where the lying came into play. Polyamory is loving more then one person. which I've been slowly realizing is what he has been wanting the whole time. Here I mean slowly as in over the last few years that we have been open. And while it would have been better for him to have talked to me about it, that is easier to come to terms with then who. Poly can go in any direction, just like an open marriage. It can be joint, with everyone equal to everyone. I told him that I could not and would not handle. I was sorry but if that was his solution to this, then to count me out no matter how much it would hurt to leave. It might have been possible with a different woman but not with her. I don't know what we are going to do when this all gets settled out. CCL
Author crazycatlady Posted March 23, 2010 Author Posted March 23, 2010 I love thread jacks, so no worries. Hmm, let me see if I could find the link to the site the woman who is in a polyamorous relationship gave me (could use her advice right around now, but haven't seen her on here for a few months now). It really helped me a great deal, and it was interesting reading. http://www.xeromag.com/fvpoly.html Ok there ya go. CCL
CarrieT Posted March 23, 2010 Posted March 23, 2010 I guess polygamy is more of a religious thing. Nope - not necessarily. That assumption and misconception occurs because polygamy is so huge within Mormonism, but polyamory exists outside of religious sects and for many, it has nothing whatsoever to do with any religion.
fooled once Posted March 23, 2010 Posted March 23, 2010 I'm not sure I'm going to add much here as I am very confused about open marriages. What I thought I knew was that an open marriage was when a H and W bring in a third party for their MUTUAL pleasure. That's not what's happening here, obviously. So maybe I'm totally wrong on that. And you can't just label this as an affair, because of the open marriage. While I don't understand it, in a way it reminds me of polygamy. Except in this case, your sister wife is your biological sister, and doesn't live as part of the household. CCL, can you reconcile yourself with living like that? I dunno... I may be far off... Just ignore me if I am.That's what happens when I watch HBO. Ditto. I have no knowledge of arranged marriages and my thoughts were just like jt's.... I thought it was for mutual benefit. So if you decided to sleep with and have a relationship with his brother, he would be okay with it? He wouldn't get to say "yes or no" to your choice, is that correct? And he tells you he isn't giving her up? I just don't get this. I didn't think this was "okay" in open marriages...I thought it was just about getting some side sex (excuse the language..in a rush and don't have time to think of nice words) If you are good with it, then that is all that matters. For ME, not even remotely would I be okay with my spouse telling me he loves someone else and wants me to share him. Not. Gonna. Happen. GOOD LUCK to you.
fooled once Posted March 23, 2010 Posted March 23, 2010 Just finished reading your response to jt's questions (and I thank you too for allowing the questions).... SO now you are not okay with it being your sister? Did you guys have ground rules ahead of time? Do you have other lovers besides him? If not, why not? Are you really okay having an open marriage or are you just doing it for him, because it is what he wants?
Author crazycatlady Posted March 23, 2010 Author Posted March 23, 2010 Ditto. I have no knowledge of arranged marriages and my thoughts were just like jt's.... I thought it was for mutual benefit. So if you decided to sleep with and have a relationship with his brother, he would be okay with it? He wouldn't get to say "yes or no" to your choice, is that correct? And he tells you he isn't giving her up? I just don't get this. I didn't think this was "okay" in open marriages...I thought it was just about getting some side sex (excuse the language..in a rush and don't have time to think of nice words) If you are good with it, then that is all that matters. For ME, not even remotely would I be okay with my spouse telling me he loves someone else and wants me to share him. Not. Gonna. Happen. GOOD LUCK to you. He has never said no to anyone I have wanted to sleep with. He has said I could sleep with his brother - a year ago when I said I couldn't deal with him sleeping with my sister (not knowing it had already happened, but as we know the gut often tells us and I pointed out that I asked him if he did for a reason - which was the lie) and asked how he would feel if I slept with his brother, he was like go for it if you want. But it was a safe thing to say because I find his brother unattractive. But he has never said anything to me about my choice of outside lovers. Which have not been very many on my choice. Technically that was suppose to have been the case. Thus it was cheating even in an open marriage. Like I said earlier, in the beginning, it was about side sex, but the more we talked about it, the more I could see he wanted more, I just didn't realize who it would end up being. I so appreciate the support. Thank you so much. CCL
fooled once Posted March 23, 2010 Posted March 23, 2010 He has never said no to anyone I have wanted to sleep with. He has said I could sleep with his brother - a year ago when I said I couldn't deal with him sleeping with my sister (not knowing it had already happened, but as we know the gut often tells us and I pointed out that I asked him if he did for a reason - which was the lie) and asked how he would feel if I slept with his brother, he was like go for it if you want. But it was a safe thing to say because I find his brother unattractive. But he has never said anything to me about my choice of outside lovers. Which have not been very many on my choice. Technically that was suppose to have been the case. Thus it was cheating even in an open marriage. Like I said earlier, in the beginning, it was about side sex, but the more we talked about it, the more I could see he wanted more, I just didn't realize who it would end up being. I so appreciate the support. Thank you so much. CCL You lost me on the bolded part.... More what? Please know I don't mean this in a mean spirited way -- I am a straight shooter and just ask questions at times.... Is the decision to have an open marriage just so he can cheat? What more does he want? More women to love him? More women to feed his ego? Do you think he said it was okay for you to sleep with his brother because he knew you wouldn't; therefore it was a 'safe' thing to say? Is he involved with someone else besides you and your sister? Is it okay to 'have feelings for' someone else in an open marriage or is it just about extra sex? Thanks CCL - I appreciate your patience.
Author crazycatlady Posted March 23, 2010 Author Posted March 23, 2010 Just finished reading your response to jt's questions (and I thank you too for allowing the questions).... SO now you are not okay with it being your sister? I am learning to deal with it being my sister. I would have been ok from the beginning with anyone else, but her, I was having time accepting. Which really isn't fair, I mean no I'm not going to be involved with him and her, but i'm not always involved with every woman he takes as a lover, so why just arbituarily say no? It was easier before it came out in the open to pretend he was eventually going to let her go. Did you guys have ground rules ahead of time? Just very loose ones, basically no lying, and to let the other know a head of time if possible, and afterwards if not possible (such as being out of town). Do you have other lovers besides him? If not, why not? I have had other lovers besides him since we opened up our marriage. Not many because i'm picky, not often because men are a hassle and most just want to talk about sex which eh, and most of my female lovers have been shared with him, not all of them, once I joined another couple, which was a lot of fun mainly because I had a great connection with her. Are you really okay having an open marriage or are you just doing it for him, because it is what he wants? I really am ok with it. I really enjoy it most of the time, this obviously being one of the times I don't enjoy it. I also did not enjoy partner swaps, not my thing. But I like that if I find someone who can have afternoon sex with me, that I enjoy, that I can get afternoon sex. I love afternoon sex and he is sooo not into it. But man its like my ON time. So I like that idea, I just am lazy and haven't bothered to find an afternoon lover. CCL
Author crazycatlady Posted March 24, 2010 Author Posted March 24, 2010 You lost me on the bolded part.... More what? Please know I don't mean this in a mean spirited way -- I am a straight shooter and just ask questions at times.... 1. Is the decision to have an open marriage just so he can cheat? 2. What more does he want? 3. More women to love him? 4. More women to feed his ego? 5. Do you think he said it was okay for you to sleep with his brother because he knew you wouldn't; therefore it was a 'safe' thing to say? 6. Is he involved with someone else besides you and your sister? 7. Is it okay to 'have feelings for' someone else in an open marriage or is it just about extra sex? Thanks CCL - I appreciate your patience. I numbered them to make them easy to answer. I always hate it when I asked a bunch of questions and some don't get answered lol. 1 - The decision to have an open marriage was one we spent close to hmm 9 to 10 years talking about - during our dating we also talked about it. We both do not view sex = love. We both have high sex drives. The idea of it was hot, but it took a while to decide to do it. The final decision was realizing that I found the idea of watching him and another woman together very arousing. 2 - With the bolded statement, I realized he wanted more emotionally. Polyamorous people have a hard time just loving one person. They want more then one person because they have so much love to give. The link I gave earlier explains this so much better then I could. 3 - More women whom he can love - two as of right now 4 - LOL His ego is HUGE when it was just me, I don't think more really strokes it that much more. I can't say it bothers me though, egotistical men are my weakness. I don't know what it is about them but they turn me on so much. 5 - Not really, though it does come across how I said it. He has seen me with other men. He has left the house once because I wanted afternoon sex, found someone to give it to me, and had them over one time it was just me and him at home. I asked him to join in but he declined because he doesn't like afternoon sex. He said to arrange it in the evening sometime and we would have some fun, but the guy ended up being a dud in the sack and wasn't worth a reinvite. 6 - We currently have a third who joins us about once a month that he will sometimes go and see during the week. That's more inclined with an open marriage then the whole sister thing. He's only been with my sister three times. 7 - The feeling thing is more then most open marriages. Which is why I would label our relationship more poly/open then just open. HTH CCL
Chrome Barracuda Posted March 24, 2010 Posted March 24, 2010 What happens when he wants to be with your sister full time, outside of him sleeping with her. then what? Thanksgiving is gonna be arkward! And the sad part is you condone it!!! You made the marriage open thus condoning his behavior. or giving him a reason to create his behavior.
Author crazycatlady Posted March 24, 2010 Author Posted March 24, 2010 What happens when he wants to be with your sister full time, outside of him sleeping with her. then what? Thanksgiving is gonna be arkward! And the sad part is you condone it!!! You made the marriage open thus condoning his behavior. or giving him a reason to create his behavior. If he wanted to be with her full time - difficult at 1500 miles apart but ok - then I step out and let him. I told him this very thing last night. He knows fulltime, or even equal time is not acceptable to me. As for thanksgiving, neither of us attend it any way. How other people look at our lives does not have an influence on how I live it. And while I wasn't too happy about the sister thing, I encouraged him with other women, especially ones I hoped would find us both attractive. WE decided to open the marriage. Its OUR marriage to make that decision on. Open or not I do not believe would have affect this situation. Because he did not respect how we handle things in our marriage by full honesty. And he has had to deal with that fact for the past year and the beating himself up that he has done. Far better then I ever could do. But having had the experiences in dealing with an open marriage, it allows me to get a handle on this situation and we can make it work. This is not a situation for everyone, neither open marriages or polyamorous relationships are for everyone. Both take work, but both can be very rewarding. I believe that fully or I would leave. CCL
Chrome Barracuda Posted March 24, 2010 Posted March 24, 2010 Well leaving the marriage open, only opens more problems for what it's worth. I mean you say it's what we decided for our marriage, and your mad that he lied about it. Sooner or later something would have happened. It's only inevitable. Hey i dont feel sorry for you, your kinda brought this on yourself. Boundries. If you cannot be forfilled sexually in your marriage and it takes multiple partners to satisfy your emotionally or sexually than what the F is the point of being married?
wheelwright Posted March 24, 2010 Posted March 24, 2010 Sorry, and (((hugs)))! Do you think this is a love triangle? One thing struck me (apart from the horrible mess type thing) is that if your sister always goes for your men, then this triangle is more about you and her than your H - he and/or she may realise that or not. Have you considered asking H to go NC with this OW? He may be relieved. A situation like this is likely to be too intense for most parties to deal with psychologically, though of course different strokes... If there really is love, and not just coveting here, then you sound like someone who could cope. But I think this coveting aspect throws a spanner in the works. Good luck sorting through this.
silverfish Posted March 24, 2010 Posted March 24, 2010 If he wanted to be with her full time - difficult at 1500 miles apart but ok - then I step out and let him. I told him this very thing last night. He knows fulltime, or even equal time is not acceptable to me. As for thanksgiving, neither of us attend it any way. How other people look at our lives does not have an influence on how I live it. And while I wasn't too happy about the sister thing, I encouraged him with other women, especially ones I hoped would find us both attractive. WE decided to open the marriage. Its OUR marriage to make that decision on. Open or not I do not believe would have affect this situation. Because he did not respect how we handle things in our marriage by full honesty. And he has had to deal with that fact for the past year and the beating himself up that he has done. Far better then I ever could do. But having had the experiences in dealing with an open marriage, it allows me to get a handle on this situation and we can make it work. This is not a situation for everyone, neither open marriages or polyamorous relationships are for everyone. Both take work, but both can be very rewarding. I believe that fully or I would leave. CCL He betrayed your trust, whatever the agreement was, and so did your sister. At some point you have to realise that however open andhonest you agreed to be he's crapped all over that....theres a reason for all this and my thought is that he's rebelling against you for whatever reason. It reminds me of that song 'anything you can do, I can do better'....lots of R's reach that point. maybe not so extreme, but it seems like a power thing going on here. It makes me sad to think of you having a panic attack over this, and him passing out after telling you etc...seems like a mess emotionally whatever you both agreed to, seems like you both realise it's gone too far here. Maybe you don't want to be the grown up here but it's gone too far obviously...you could F his brother, dad, grandad? Would that all be ok with him too? Unlikely - he's pushing you and you need to find out why, thats why you're having the anxiety moments....he's testing you big time, and so is your S possibly (or maybe she's jealous of you and your chilled out life).
Author crazycatlady Posted March 24, 2010 Author Posted March 24, 2010 Sorry, and (((hugs)))! Do you think this is a love triangle? One thing struck me (apart from the horrible mess type thing) is that if your sister always goes for your men, then this triangle is more about you and her than your H - he and/or she may realise that or not. Have you considered asking H to go NC with this OW? He may be relieved. A situation like this is likely to be too intense for most parties to deal with psychologically, though of course different strokes... If there really is love, and not just coveting here, then you sound like someone who could cope. But I think this coveting aspect throws a spanner in the works. Good luck sorting through this. He will not go into NC, he has tried on his own but didn't make it. It just made him really unpleasant to live with. As for the coveting thing....I don't know. I really don't. Either we are attracted to the same guys, the first was a girlish crush on her part, she is 8 years younger then me. And man she was ticked off when she found out that we had a hidden relationship. She hasn't always gone for my guys, just the two where real love was involved. I dated one guy that she attacked with a baseball bat, well she lifted it threateningly. She was 11 at the time I think. Oddly enough the boyfriend had no real desire to ever go back to my house after that, can't I say I blame him there. There was another guy who actually was a friend of my H that I had met way before him. He and I had a short term (very short) physical fling. At 16 she tried to run away with him and H stopped them. So there's another. I don't know. CCL
Author crazycatlady Posted March 24, 2010 Author Posted March 24, 2010 He found the "afternoon" guy for you, but he doesn't find all your lovers for you, right? It's not like he has to approve of them? If he did, that would change the dynamic somewhat (definitely to his benefit). Not to be flip, but what's wrong with afternoon sex? How's it any better or worse than morning, noon and night sex? Is it like people who don't like morning sex because their breath might stink? Just curious. He didn't find the afternoon guy, I found the afternoon guy. He didn't want to join, so he went out so I could have said afternoon guy. I don't know why he's not big on afternoon sex. And no he's never approved and disapproved of a lover. I'm not into morning sex. Even showered with brushed teeth I am not into it. I will do it because he loves it, but I just don't orgasm during the morning. I do it because he loves it, but eh, normally not my thing. Sometimes I get into it, but even then I have to really help things along. CCL
Author crazycatlady Posted March 24, 2010 Author Posted March 24, 2010 Another poster made a good point about your sister going after your men. You've been looking at it from his point of view, not hers. Could she have gone after him just to see if she could get him? Are her feelings for him the same as his for her? If it's a competition thing, she may not be as invested as everybody (including herself) thinks. I have wondered about that. Also she isn't very good at long term relationships. Plus I think after a while she is going to want more. So in the end it could be sad for her or sad for me. At least now its open and out in the light. CCL
Author crazycatlady Posted March 24, 2010 Author Posted March 24, 2010 He betrayed your trust, whatever the agreement was, and so did your sister. At some point you have to realise that however open andhonest you agreed to be he's crapped all over that....theres a reason for all this and my thought is that he's rebelling against you for whatever reason. It reminds me of that song 'anything you can do, I can do better'....lots of R's reach that point. maybe not so extreme, but it seems like a power thing going on here. It makes me sad to think of you having a panic attack over this, and him passing out after telling you etc...seems like a mess emotionally whatever you both agreed to, seems like you both realise it's gone too far here. Maybe you don't want to be the grown up here but it's gone too far obviously...you could F his brother, dad, grandad? Would that all be ok with him too? Unlikely - he's pushing you and you need to find out why, thats why you're having the anxiety moments....he's testing you big time, and so is your S possibly (or maybe she's jealous of you and your chilled out life). The panic attacks were just this morning, and I did have them when I first found out. Will they stay gone? I don't know. But I think for the most part they are over. I think it was simple reaction to what was going on more then anything else. He didn't pass out right after telling me. "Hon I slept with your sister" out. We talked some about it, but he did go to sleep once that part of the discussion was done. And then I came in and posted here, and then went back to bed where he woke up and we talks some more. I do not believe that people screw up once and everything is ruined for ever. He made a mistake, one that has eaten at him for over a year. He has called himself every bad name in the book and then some. He was falling apart last night because of this. I had no clue for most of it. And then finding out some, and then he finding out I knew some of it and wasn't killing him he started to have hope. His having hope helped things improve for in himself and in our relationship. But he knew it needed to come all the way out in the open. I've known and I've been unable to talk to him about it. I understand the fear of having to confess. I've been there. I know a part of him really hoped he could just...let go of her. But it turned out to be impossible. I don't believe there is one way or another, I don't believe in black or white but shades of grey. I don't think a mistake like this makes someone a bad person. And I know people can love more then one person. All this makes me think that we can work though this. And how I feel about him makes it worth working through this. CCL
silverfish Posted March 24, 2010 Posted March 24, 2010 I have wondered about that. Also she isn't very good at long term relationships. Plus I think after a while she is going to want more. So in the end it could be sad for her or sad for me. At least now its open and out in the light. CCL You're very pragmatic, and open minded about the whole thing in some ways, so can I ask what you believe he gets sexually out of a relationship with your sister, that he can't get from someone else, as you've given eachother that freedom? Just seems cruel on his part to me.
silverfish Posted March 24, 2010 Posted March 24, 2010 The panic attacks were just this morning, and I did have them when I first found out. Will they stay gone? I don't know. But I think for the most part they are over. I think it was simple reaction to what was going on more then anything else. He didn't pass out right after telling me. "Hon I slept with your sister" out. We talked some about it, but he did go to sleep once that part of the discussion was done. And then I came in and posted here, and then went back to bed where he woke up and we talks some more. I do not believe that people screw up once and everything is ruined for ever. He made a mistake, one that has eaten at him for over a year. He has called himself every bad name in the book and then some. He was falling apart last night because of this. I had no clue for most of it. And then finding out some, and then he finding out I knew some of it and wasn't killing him he started to have hope. His having hope helped things improve for in himself and in our relationship. But he knew it needed to come all the way out in the open. I've known and I've been unable to talk to him about it. I understand the fear of having to confess. I've been there. I know a part of him really hoped he could just...let go of her. But it turned out to be impossible. I don't believe there is one way or another, I don't believe in black or white but shades of grey. I don't think a mistake like this makes someone a bad person. And I know people can love more then one person. All this makes me think that we can work though this. And how I feel about him makes it worth working through this. CCL Panic attacks are a physical expression of the emotional turmoil you are repressing...I don't know if it's a one off for you, but they certainly weren't for me until i realised why they were happening and I still get them occasionally.
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