who pays

[Els]

It's always good when the guy wants to pay, what's annoying is the guys who pay, but pay grudgingly. If you want to split, say so! Rule of thumb for men, first dates, just pay, it's saves the arguments. It's a minefield for some guys, because if they pay the woman may get all feminist crappy on him, and if he offers to split,they get all traditional.

 

Yes, that really is quite unfortunate for men. I really never understood some women - if you enjoyed the date and the guy insists on paying, just smile and let him, gosh! If you really want to pay, treat him somewhere else later, there's no need to go all 'What, you think that just because I'm a woman I can't afford to pay for myself?!', or throw a big fuss over the bill. Completely immature, and sours everything.

 

I don't feel entitled either but if a guy whom I actually like wants to pay, I'll definitely show my appreciation instead of yelling at him for it.

Edited March 22, 2010 by Elswyth

[sally4sara]

I insist to see how he handles it. I want to know if he is flexible and open minded. And I want him to feel compelled to impress me in non-monetary ways.

I want to know if he does attach his masculinity to his money. If ever we end up in a real relationship and there comes a time where he makes less - I want to know he won't feel worthless, or, if he makes more - he won't be the type to think he can dictate to me.

I want the first few dates light with no confusion about obligation. Plus when I am just dating, I could be dating others.

[mrkleen]

So, mrkleen, you are saying that I'm less of a man because women date me for who I am and because they enjoy my company - and not because I spend money on them and provide free food and entertainment? This is some funny sh*t. I've always been convinces that guys who believe that allowing a woman to pay for herself makes them less of a man are insecure as hell and deep down believe that they need to buy a woman's company because their wallet is more attractive than they are.

 

That is a bunch of bull****.

 

I dont need to buy anyone anything...I choose to do it because it was the way I was raised. Hell, it is the way men are wired - to take take care of the women they care about. Period.

 

Maybe you missed that day in evolution class....or maybe you have been hurt in the past and think that being a cheap cad makes you more of a man. Sorry to tell you, it makes you neither. All it makes you is CHEAP and INCONSIDERATE.

 

But hey, if it works for you - good luck with that. You must be dating some real confident, desirable women.

[Ruby Slippers]

Guys who 'tie their manhood' to their ability to make money are obviously extremely insecure.

I might buy that (ha), if not for the fact that the most confident ladies' man of the bunch was one that splashed out on me the most, always drove the car, etc. This guy even went so far as to say that when we got a house someday, he wanted to pay for it 100%! This to me sounded ludicrous, but he couldn't seem to get his mind around the idea that I would put any of my money toward that.

 

Part of the explanation, if not most of it, is that he was raised in a very traditional family, where the dad was clearly a successful "breadwinner". Another factor is that I am a little older than you and have dated men older than you, so they are also a little more old school when it comes to this.

[marsle85]

marsle, I think your comment touched off a soft spot for me, in that I once dated a guy who felt that because I had more, I should shell out more. Not only did I tell him off, I also dumped him like a hot potato.

 

 

I didn't intend for it to sound that way. I'm sorry!

 

Maybe you missed that day in evolution class....

 

Hahahhahah, the bible says: "Thou shalt pay!"

[Kris30]

Whoa! I didn't know this thread would turn into this! I just asked a question!

[Woggle]

I might buy that (ha), if not for the fact that the most confident ladies' man of the bunch was one that splashed out on me the most, always drove the car, etc. This guy even went so far as to say that when we got a house someday, he wanted to pay for it 100%! This to me sounded ludicrous, but he couldn't seem to get his mind around the idea that I would put any of my money toward that.

 

Part of the explanation, if not most of it, is that he was raised in a very traditional family, where the dad was clearly a successful "breadwinner". Another factor is that I am a little older than you and have dated men older than you, so they are also a little more old school when it comes to this.

 

He is still insecure. I admit I like having the means to do what I want but for the most part I still run in the same circles I did when I was broke. I am one of the least materialistic people you could find.

[Jersey Shortie]

You cannot deny that many, many men tie their manhood to their ability to pay/provide. It comes as naturally to them as opening doors for you, wrapping you up in their arms when you get cold, taking out the trash so you don't have to, checking when you hear a noise at night, and so on.

 

Yes. Agreed. I think in younger generations it's harder to find because all around we've become a *me* culture. I think there are less men that want to take the rule of provider because they don't want the responsibility of caring for another human being yet they still want to be respected as men of the house. Instead they want to play playstation and cat around. Now I know it's not PC to snub these actitivies but I do know men who snicker at other men that waste time on video games and other worthless pursuits.

 

 

I find it mildly baffling that women (and I am a woman myself) want equality with men, and have fought for it for a long time, to not be traditional, stay at home housewives, but when it comes to dating, still expect to be treated traditionally, and have the men pay. Why? Because they very simply want equality only when it suits them, when it benefits them, and when they are about to be out of pocket, they pull out the traditional card. Sorry, but that's is true. We expect to be seen as equal, but yet, we also expect to be taken care of, (how is that equal?)

 

I got to say, what baffles me is the way you see it Harmfulsweetz.

 

How is that not equal to want to be taken care of? Do women not take care of men in their own way as well? I see no issue with a man or woman breaking tradtional gender roles. But I also see no issue with equality when someone has an interest in tradtional gender roles.

 

Who ever said that to be equal we must completely obliterate any traditional gender roles. Is what makes us equal the abolishment of certain prolicitivies that make us uniquely men and women?[FONT=Times New Roman][sIZE=3] [/sIZE][/FONT]Basically your premise is that you don't think men and women should be defined by traditional gender rules. Yet, interestingly enough, you systematically are defining men and women by them.

 

Women want to be treated with respect. That doesn't mean we don't want a door open for us, a man to take us out or hold our hand, or protect us if another man puts us in harm's way. Should we no longer want these things under the guise of "equality"? Should we no longer take pleasure in such masculine pursuits?

 

You are not going to obliterate a million years of evalution just because women wanted the chance to vote. There are certain biological factors that are deep and inherent in women to want a provider, to be take care of in certain ways. Just as she should in turn take care of her man in probably equal but different wayts. Is a woman not equal because she does the laundry and he gets the oil changed in the family cares?

 

You define equality by all things matching equal pace to pace. However, to me, that's not what equality is neccesarily about. To me, it's more about respecting each other, not taking advantage of boundries all the while providing each other with a safe place to express their needs.

 

Heck yeah I want equality. And heck yeah I have expectations on how a man treats me. There is no man here that doesn't feel elated when a woman makes him feel like a man. Just because we want to be equal doesn't mean we don't want to be treated femininly or masculinly.

 

I find your comments complete hogwash.

[Woggle]

One of the main problems is that many of these women demanding to be treated like ladies are completely unwilling to treat a man like a man. They view it as degrading and stepfordish. You have to admit that some women think like that and then wonder why men aren't gentlemen anymore.

[Jersey Shortie]

Of course there are women out there like that. And there are women who aren't right? But I do not blame these women on the choices a man makes to be however he decides. Just because someone treats me like crap doesn't mean i treat other people like crap back.

[Els]

One of the main problems is that many of these women demanding to be treated like ladies are completely unwilling to treat a man like a man. They view it as degrading and stepfordish. You have to admit that some women think like that and then wonder why men aren't gentlemen anymore.

 

That's the exact equivalent of men who staunchly refuse to give out more than 50.0000 of their share for a tab (in the name of equality) and then expect the woman to arrive with sexy clothes, a nice hairdo and tasteful makeup (in the name of feminity) when they themselves spent all of 10 minutes putting on a shirt and khakis, and just maybe running a comb through their hair or spraying cologne.

 

Both these men and the ladies you mention, just want to have their cake and eat it too. Not attractive.

[thegreatesthumphrey]

If you pretend to be someone your not, or try to please someone whom wouldnt really make you happy in the long term its going to do nothing but end bad. If you feel the man should pay for every date, then stick to that. Yes, some men will leave and not call you back etc. because that is not the type of relationship they are looking for. They wouldnt ultimately make you happy either. There are plenty of men out there that enjoy being the breadwinner of the relationship and spoiling their lady. If thats the relationship you want then continue to look for it. NEVER date a person just because of what they buy you. I just had to put that out there. Some men on this thread are freaking out calling "traditional" women gold diggers.... but they are only thinking about the money. In a "traditional" realtionship there is an even give and take just like all other types of relationships. The man pays for everything, yes, but the woman gives make to him in many more ways than a woman in a 50/50 realtionship to even things out. Now, people can use common sense to tell whether a realtionship is good or bad or if a guy or girl is good or bad. But for the majority, this holds true.

[St. Nick]

I don't date women who are too broke to pay for their own dinner. So me paying isn't going to be something I worry about with the women I date. I haven't even asked a woman out on a dinner date or to the movies since I was a freshman in college. My dates are usually at bookstores: it's a comfortable setting and I don't have to worry about paying for anything. If she ever asks, "Wanna have some coffee from the Barnes and Noble Starbucks?" then I decline and say I'll have water, but she's free to buy some for herself. The whole point of dating is to be with someone; who pays for what shouldn't be the big issue here.

 

I don't buy gifts for nothing. When Valentine's Day, Christmas, or her birthday rolls around my cash stays in my bank account. I'll send her a free online gift card but that's it.

 

I once thought it was important to pay for stuff for chicks, but I grew up in a neighborhood where the best womanizers could also be the dudes who worked regular jobs. So you don't need all the flash to get women.

 

Anyone who is suggesting that you pay for a woman all the time is essentially saying that women are so materialistic that they lack the capacity to appreciate other qualities in a man.

 

Older women can be pretty cool though. Sometimes they offer to pay for me.

[mrkleen]

I don't date women who are too broke to pay for their own dinner. So me paying isn't going to be something I worry about with the women I date. I haven't even asked a woman out on a dinner date or to the movies since I was a freshman in college. My dates are usually at bookstores: it's a comfortable setting and I don't have to worry about paying for anything. If she ever asks, "Wanna have some coffee from the Barnes and Noble Starbucks?" then I decline and say I'll have water, but she's free to buy some for herself. The whole point of dating is to be with someone; who pays for what shouldn't be the big issue here.

 

I don't buy gifts for nothing. When Valentine's Day, Christmas, or her birthday rolls around my cash stays in my bank account. I'll send her a free online gift card but that's it.

 

I once thought it was important to pay for stuff for chicks, but I grew up in a neighborhood where the best womanizers could also be the dudes who worked regular jobs. So you don't need all the flash to get women.

 

Anyone who is suggesting that you pay for a woman all the time is essentially saying that women are so materialistic that they lack the capacity to appreciate other qualities in a man.

 

Older women can be pretty cool though. Sometimes they offer to pay for me.

 

This whole post is hilarious.

 

This whole thing is more about being gracious and generous than anything else.

 

I buy drinks and dinner for my friends (male and female) all the time. I get gifts for co-workers when they have a baby or get married. I send drinks to my drinking buddies at bars where I drink from time to time.

 

It has NOTHING to do with thinking that people dont appreciate me or my good qualities - it has everything to do with being generous and giving. Period.

 

My current GF earns more than I do and is very capable of paying for any meal any time we are out, but I take her money a small percentage of the time - after she gets a bit upset and insists. But she does a lot of other thing for me that take money, time and more importantly thought.

 

She cooks for me at home, knits me blankets, bakes me cookies, buys me flowers etc. Then there are the things that you cant put a real value on like all the sweet messages and emails she sends, all the sexy stuff she buys to wear under her outfits when we go out. This kind of stuff is what these selfish, penny counting, everything has to be equal guys dont get.

 

Treating a women with respect and caring and making her feel special on a night out, comes back to you 1000 times over in how it makes her feel, in how she feels about you, and all the little things she will do after the fact to make your know that she cares.

 

If a women isnt pulling her weight or is all take, take, take....she is OUT the door. But it is a pleasure to do nice things for a good person that I like and like spending time with.

[St. Nick]

This whole post is hilarious.

 

This whole thing is more about being gracious and generous than anything else.

 

I buy drinks and dinner for my friends (male and female) all the time. I get gifts for co-workers when they have a baby or get married. I send drinks to my drinking buddies at bars where I drink from time to time.

 

It has NOTHING to do with thinking that people dont appreciate me or my good qualities - it has everything to do with being generous and giving. Period.

 

My current GF earns more than I do and is very capable of paying for any meal any time we are out, but I take her money a small percentage of the time - after she gets a bit upset and insists. But she does a lot of other thing for me that take money, time and more importantly thought.

 

She cooks for me at home, knits me blankets, bakes me cookies, buys me flowers etc. Then there are the things that you cant put a real value on like all the sweet messages and emails she sends, all the sexy stuff she buys to wear under her outfits when we go out. This kind of stuff is what these selfish, penny counting, everything has to be equal guys dont get.

 

Treating a women with respect and caring and making her feel special on a night out, comes back to you 1000 times over in how it makes her feel, in how she feels about you, and all the little things she will do after the fact to make your know that she cares.

 

If a women isnt pulling her weight or is all take, take, take....she is OUT the door. But it is a pleasure to do nice things for a good person that I like and like spending time with.

Hey buddy, all I'm trying to do is figure out how doing nice things for someone has to be lending financial support. I have friends too. I help them move, lend emotional support, advice, help them paint, fix things, give 'em directions, good deals (i.e. pirated movies, music, software, etc.), and just be a good friend. None of that stuff requires spending money and they're still grateful for my friendship. I don't buy gifts for co-workers though; I've never been close enough with any of my co-workers at any of my jobs to feel that was necessary.

 

Your opinion of being gracious and generous equals spending money. Mine doesn't. As far as your relationship goes with your current girl then that's cool. I'm not gonna talk trash about it. More power to you.

 

I was referring to dating in general, not a specific girlfriend. Take her out on a date and spend cash on her before becoming boyfriend and girlfriend? Are you serious? There are a lot of prudes out there, especially on this site. I can't tell you how many times I've read stories I've read here about women going on 6 or more dates and still not letting the dude get to second base. You think I should spend my money on that?After that 6th date being gracious and generous are gonna seem like empty virtues once I check my bank account and see how much I spent on that chick who won't even let me grab her breast.

 

If I'm married to her, or engaged, then it seems cool to spend money on her. But I don't care how long I've been in a relationship with her, nor do I care how exclusive we are, I'm not gonna spend cash on chick who is too broke to pay for her own dinners. I'd rather give my money to charity.

[Drummergirl_23]

I think both should pay sometimes. Girls can't expect equal treatment and then claim they are "old-fashion" and expect the guy to pay when the bill comes. I am an independent woman, I have a job and make money. My pride will NEVER let me allow someone else to pay for things ALL the time.

[marsle85]

This whole post is hilarious.

 

This whole thing is more about being gracious and generous than anything else.

 

YES.

 

It has NOTHING to do with thinking that people dont appreciate me or my good qualities - it has everything to do with being generous and giving. Period.

 

Bravo.

Treating a women with respect and caring and making her feel special on a night out, comes back to you 1000 times over in how it makes her feel, in how she feels about you, and all the little things she will do after the fact to make your know that she cares.

 

If a women isnt pulling her weight or is all take, take, take....she is OUT the door. But it is a pleasure to do nice things for a good person that I like and like spending time with.

 

So well written. 100% agree with everything said here. Not because he sides with me- but because it's true, and it's genuine...

 

Relationships are based on give and take. A healthy relationship shares 50/50 of the dues. However that evens out doesn't matter- as long as the couple finds a solid ground based on generosity and kindness.

[marsle85]

I think both should pay sometimes. Girls can't expect equal treatment and then claim they are "old-fashion" and expect the guy to pay when the bill comes. I am an independent woman, I have a job and make money. My pride will NEVER let me allow someone else to pay for things ALL the time.

 

You're seeing it as a warfield- like him buying you dinner is a threat to your self worth. Sometimes it takes someone with great pride to -accept- generosity.

[St. Nick]

I think both should pay sometimes. Girls can't expect equal treatment and then claim they are "old-fashion" and expect the guy to pay when the bill comes. I am an independent woman, I have a job and make money. My pride will NEVER let me allow someone else to pay for things ALL the time.

 

You're seeing it as a warfield- like him buying you dinner is a threat to your self worth. Sometimes it takes someone with great pride to -accept- generosity.

"Sometimes it takes someone with great pride to accept generosity"? So marsle, are you saying you're broke and can't pay your own dates? Is generosity the equivalent of charity to you?

 

Drummergirl sounds like she's got herself together financially. If more American women were like her then she'd be a turn-on, rather appearing awkward. Many times American guys are surprised by women who insist on paying their own food, not because they are "traditional" or "they were brought up to be generous and pay", it's because she's so rare in the U.S.

 

Somebody still needs to explain to me how generosity equals money. What is exactly is wrong with having women pay their own dinner and going dutch? Am I really the only guy who thinks a woman insisting on paying for herself is sexier than these "traditional" women?

[mrkleen]

"Sometimes it takes someone with great pride to accept generosity"? So marsle, are you saying you're broke and can't pay your own dates? Is generosity the equivalent of charity to you?

 

Drummergirl sounds like she's got herself together financially. If more American women were like her then she'd be a turn-on, rather appearing awkward. Many times American guys are surprised by women who insist on paying their own food, not because they are "traditional" or "they were brought up to be generous and pay", it's because she's so rare in the U.S.

 

Somebody still needs to explain to me how generosity equals money. What is exactly is wrong with having women pay their own dinner and going dutch? Am I really the only guy who thinks a woman insisting on paying for herself is sexier than these "traditional" women?

 

Nick - here is the thing, and I appreciate your last couple of posts. If that is working for you and you feel satisfied as a man and a person when your date pays her share - go for it.

 

For me, I feel good when I am taking care of the woman that I care for. It makes me happy to bring her flowers or buy her dinner or drinks, or to protect her from some drunk @sshole at a bar. That is how I am made....that is ingrained in my soul from my father and grandfather. It is as much about making me feel like a good provider and a solid person as it is about the hospitality.

 

Giving to me is about the act of giving - not some score card that I keep in my back pocket.

[mrkleen]

So well written. 100% agree with everything said here. Not because he sides with me- but because it's true, and it's genuine...

 

Thanks

[harmfulsweetz]

Yes. Agreed. I think in younger generations it's harder to find because all around we've become a *me* culture. I think there are less men that want to take the rule of provider because they don't want the responsibility of caring for another human being yet they still want to be respected as men of the house. Instead they want to play playstation and cat around. Now I know it's not PC to snub these actitivies but I do know men who snicker at other men that waste time on video games and other worthless pursuits.

 

 

 

 

I got to say, what baffles me is the way you see it Harmfulsweetz.

 

How is that not equal to want to be taken care of? Do women not take care of men in their own way as well? I see no issue with a man or woman breaking tradtional gender roles. But I also see no issue with equality when someone has an interest in tradtional gender roles.

 

Who ever said that to be equal we must completely obliterate any traditional gender roles. Is what makes us equal the abolishment of certain prolicitivies that make us uniquely men and women?[FONT=Times New Roman][sIZE=3] [/sIZE][/FONT]Basically your premise is that you don't think men and women should be defined by traditional gender rules. Yet, interestingly enough, you systematically are defining men and women by them.

 

Women want to be treated with respect. That doesn't mean we don't want a door open for us, a man to take us out or hold our hand, or protect us if another man puts us in harm's way. Should we no longer want these things under the guise of "equality"? Should we no longer take pleasure in such masculine pursuits?

 

You are not going to obliterate a million years of evalution just because women wanted the chance to vote. There are certain biological factors that are deep and inherent in women to want a provider, to be take care of in certain ways. Just as she should in turn take care of her man in probably equal but different wayts. Is a woman not equal because she does the laundry and he gets the oil changed in the family cares?

 

You define equality by all things matching equal pace to pace. However, to me, that's not what equality is neccesarily about. To me, it's more about respecting each other, not taking advantage of boundries all the while providing each other with a safe place to express their needs.

 

Heck yeah I want equality. And heck yeah I have expectations on how a man treats me. There is no man here that doesn't feel elated when a woman makes him feel like a man. Just because we want to be equal doesn't mean we don't want to be treated femininly or masculinly.

 

I find your comments complete hogwash.

 

No, women want to be equal in every way other than when it doesn't benefit us. We want all of the benefits of today's society, but still be treated as if we are traditional women. Sorry if that to you is hogwash but it isn't. Women are now often, earning as much as men, and have rightfully, fought for that right, but yet, when it comes to putting their hands in their pockets, you wouldn't know it! No offense, but isn't that a little bit funny? We're happy to enjoy being equal and all that, but ask us to pay our share for a date and be equal in dating, many women would run for the hills from the guy!

 

It's not about femininity and masculinity at all, Jersey, my a*se is it, and before you suggest what my premise is, Jersey, read again. I have said that women do not want to still be in the traditional roles they once were, in social aspects, professional aspects etc, etc, and emotional, relationships etc, but we still expect men to treat us as if we were in those roles. Women were took out on dates and paid for in those days because the men were the breadwinners, they earned the money, and so, they had to pay. Women seem to want to have their cake and eat it too. All I'm saying.

 

I'm not saying it isn't nice when a guy offers and insists on paying, if that's the case, I accept. They should never be obliged to pay, walking around on dates, with a sense of entitlement is hardly attractive. Since when did I say strip away femininity? I didn't. I said, you can't say I want to be on equal money as men, but not be able to put your hand in your pocket when the bill comes. I don't define my femininity by a man paying for me, I really don't see it linked really. Hogwash I think you call it, and that's what I'm calling that. It doesn't make me any less feminine that I'm happy to split, I'm just open to the idea that times are a changing, and if I want to reap the rewards for those changes, then I ought to pull my weight.

[boogieboy]

No, women want to be equal in every way other than when it doesn't benefit us. We want all of the benefits of today's society, but still be treated as if we are traditional women. Sorry if that to you is hogwash but it isn't. Women are now often, earning as much as men, and have rightfully, fought for that right, but yet, when it comes to putting their hands in their pockets, you wouldn't know it! No offense, but isn't that a little bit funny? We're happy to enjoy being equal and all that, but ask us to pay our share for a date and be equal in dating, many women would run for the hills from the guy!

 

It's not about femininity and masculinity at all, Jersey, my a*se is it, and before you suggest what my premise is, Jersey, read again. I have said that women do not want to still be in the traditional roles they once were, in social aspects, professional aspects etc, etc, and emotional, relationships etc, but we still expect men to treat us as if we were in those roles. Women were took out on dates and paid for in those days because the men were the breadwinners, they earned the money, and so, they had to pay. Women seem to want to have their cake and eat it too. All I'm saying.

 

I'm not saying it isn't nice when a guy offers and insists on paying, if that's the case, I accept. They should never be obliged to pay, walking around on dates, with a sense of entitlement is hardly attractive. Since when did I say strip away femininity? I didn't. I said, you can't say I want to be on equal money as men, but not be able to put your hand in your pocket when the bill comes. I don't define my femininity by a man paying for me, I really don't see it linked really. Hogwash I think you call it, and that's what I'm calling that. It doesn't make me any less feminine that I'm happy to split, I'm just open to the idea that times are a changing, and if I want to reap the rewards for those changes, then I ought to pull my weight.

 

Preach on sista!

 

Amen on the hogwash!

 

Amen on the hogwash!

 

Thank you for keeping the mindset of an even playing field. I have no problem paying for women with this mentality.

[harmfulsweetz]

Preach on sista!

 

Amen on the hogwash!

 

Amen on the hogwash!

 

Thank you for keeping the mindset of an even playing field. I have no problem paying for women with this mentality.

 

I hope I didn't come off as too preachy

[hats]

I think the problem is that society has progressed further than our hearts. Through a lot of intellectualizing we all agreed that women should have more opportunities and more independence. But it still didn't change the fact that in our heart of hearts many men still want to feel like the "manly provider" and many women still want to feel "taken care of".

 

In real life most people just don't care much about the rational arguments for what's fair and what isn't. That's what posters like marsle and mrkleen are trying to say. Dating is based on feelings and chemistry and they're just not going to feel emotionally fulfilled in a relationship unless they fulfill their respective roles. They say it's "just how they're wired" or "how they've been raised". The heart wants what it wants and no amount of discussion will change that. I think most people are like this, it's not something bad or good.

 

But if we're really talking about fairness then I'd agree that it's unfair for guys to have to pay more than the women. The problem is that fairness and rationality usually aren't romantic or sexy, so it's a bit of a moot point. That said, I think it's great that there are people who can hold themselves to such a high rational standard, and hope they find someone who does the same. But I think it's very rare, and it's not a standard I would hold others to, or even hold myself to.