Woggle Posted March 22, 2010 Posted March 22, 2010 Instead of examining this rule in question - why don't we shred the rules and look at it like this: Haven't you ever found someone you were very attracted to, and wanted to do something nice for them? Opening doors, paying for a meal, making dinner for someone- they are being seen as steps in the courting process and have totally lost their true essence... TO BE NICE! A man is not a wuss for wanting to take a girl out a few times, and wanting to pay for her. A girl is NOT a gold digger for ENJOYING someone doing nice THINGS for her. Can't anyone be KIND anymore? That is sadly not the world we live in anymore. Do you look at women who cook for a man as doormat stepford wives?
sally4sara Posted March 22, 2010 Posted March 22, 2010 It's sexist, I know. It's just what I expect because I grew up with my dad and brothers opening doors, etc. So then for you, your expectation ISN't about a gender war as suggested, but rather an old social programming standard you were raised with. Look, not every guy who insists he pay is doing it because he expects to get laid or feels he is diminished as a man if the woman covers her own bill. And not every woman who expects the man to pay is doing so because she is a gold digger. It is an old standard from a time when women had either no income or very little. A time when women married earlier and to a usually older man. These are not the norm now, so the standard is changing depending on personal views. Sure there are gold diggers and slimy jerks who think they are buying sexual favors, but most perspective is born of past experience. Since you're on a date with them, you can always ask about their perspective rather than assume.
Johnny M Posted March 22, 2010 Posted March 22, 2010 I am not using men. I don't use men. I don't date men i'm not interested in building a serious relationship with. I don't understand why so many men think women go on dates with men just to get a free dinner. He's not buying me shoes or clothes - food is not WORTH hurting someone. I have never done it, and I never will. You can be romantically interested in someone and still use that person for money. I don't understand why you see the two as mutually exclusive concepts.
marsle85 Posted March 22, 2010 Posted March 22, 2010 You can be romantically interested in someone and still use that person for money. I don't understand why you see the two as mutually exclusive concepts. I see it as misuse when the man's resources are being expelled for no other reason than my financial benefit. I see it as investment when the man's resources are being expelled to show me affection and kindness - and I want to show that I enjoy him doting on me. That is sadly not the world we live in anymore. Do you look at women who cook for a man as doormat stepford wives? No? I don't. Relationships are based on a lot of different factors: economic, cultural alike. If he happens to be the main breadwinner, it makes sense she would do most of the house work...and vise versa. In my case- the guy i'm seeing makes a lot more money than I do, proportionally-wise, him spending more money than I do makes sense. To me, it's the intentions of the giver/taker that matter. If a man is only spending money on a woman for sex- does that mean SHE'S a gold digger? Or is she only a gold digger when HE genuinely wants her?
Jersey Shortie Posted March 22, 2010 Posted March 22, 2010 That's right ladies. Hold no expectatiosn of men what-so-ever. All they should have to do is show up and you should love them for their hearts of gold right on the spot. But make sure to keep yourself in tip-top shape and dress nicely. It's only fair that he value you you for yout looks , age, how sweet you are..etc etc etc....
Chrome Barracuda Posted March 22, 2010 Posted March 22, 2010 ...Who should pay??? ...The woman. LMAO. no im joking. The girl should pay. Or maybe at least offer to chip in half! I aint spending all my hard earned money while you walk away with a free meal in your belly! lol.
Johnny M Posted March 22, 2010 Posted March 22, 2010 I see it as investment when the man's resources are being expelled to show me affection and kindness - and I want to show that I enjoy him doting on me. You have a very creative mind when it comes to making rationalizations
threebyfate Posted March 22, 2010 Posted March 22, 2010 For some reason, I thought this thread was about first dates, rather than dating in general, so I'm going to have to change my response. First date - guy pays, unless I don't ever want to see him again. If so, I pay for the entire date and run like hell.Any date after that, it's an alternate pay scenario.marsle, I do have to take you to task for this comment. In my case- the guy i'm seeing makes a lot more money than I do, proportionally-wise, him spending more money than I do makes sense. How do you feel you can justify these comments? How do you feel you have a right to share in his money, regardless of how much each of you make?
Leia Posted March 22, 2010 Posted March 22, 2010 I'm sure there are many different views on this, but I am a pretty traditional gal. I think the guy (being the pursuer) should pay for dates. So I've been unapollogetically just letting him pay and plan to continue to do so. Don't some people still do this?? First date, the guy pays. When it comes to going out with guy friends, they usually pay although I would insist in paying half of it. In my current relationship, if bf pays for lunch/dinner, I'll pay for the movies or whatever other activities we decide on. Sometimes he pays for everything. This is the most balanced relationship I've been in [financially speaking].
JustJoe Posted March 22, 2010 Posted March 22, 2010 Ms. TBF, You are a married woman and expectant mom, you shouldn't have any opinion about this stuff.:D I agree , however, that the man's wealth shouldn't play any part in who pays.
Ruby Slippers Posted March 22, 2010 Posted March 22, 2010 I'll step up and answer the men's request that we progressive women honor across-the-board equality where money is concerned. But here's the thing... I have never once dated a man who didn't want to pay for dates. In fact, most of the men I have dated wanted to pay for pretty much everything we did together, and some of them acted downright offended when I offered to pay. Their attitude suggests, "What are you doing? I'm THE MAN. I pay." I have taken their lead, and they are usually VERY clear on how they want things to be. You cannot deny that many, many men tie their manhood to their ability to pay/provide. It comes as naturally to them as opening doors for you, wrapping you up in their arms when you get cold, taking out the trash so you don't have to, checking when you hear a noise at night, and so on.
threebyfate Posted March 22, 2010 Posted March 22, 2010 Ms. TBF, You are a married woman and expectant mom, you shouldn't have any opinion about this stuff.:D I agree , however, that the man's wealth shouldn't play any part in who pays.Take a look in this thread. I'm not the only married woman or mother/mother-to-be in here.
Johnny M Posted March 22, 2010 Posted March 22, 2010 I'll step up and answer the men's request that we progressive women honor across-the-board equality where money is concerned. But here's the thing... I have never once dated a man who didn't want to pay for dates. In fact, most of the men I have dated wanted to pay for pretty much everything we did together, and some of them acted downright offended when I offered to pay. Their attitude suggests, "What are you doing? I'm THE MAN. I pay." I have taken their lead, and they are usually VERY clear on how they want things to be. You cannot deny that many, many men tie their manhood to their ability to pay/provide. It comes as naturally to them as opening doors for you, wrapping you up in their arms when you get cold, taking out the trash so you don't have to, checking when you hear a noise at night, and so on. Maybe you are attracted to that particular type of man. I wouldn't generalize and say that all - or even the majority - of men are like that. Guys who 'tie their manhood' to their ability to make money are obviously extremely insecure.
JustJoe Posted March 22, 2010 Posted March 22, 2010 Ms. Leia, if you are in a LTR, does it really matter, who pays? OK, Ms. TBF, The man should pay for the baby food, that's the least he can do.
sweetjasmine Posted March 22, 2010 Posted March 22, 2010 I have never once dated a man who didn't want to pay for dates. In fact, most of the men I have dated wanted to pay for pretty much everything we did together, and some of them acted downright offended when I offered to pay. Same here, although I haven't had anyone get offended at offering. My SO is mostly like that - he insists on paying when we go out somewhere. But he lets me pay for things sometimes, and I've been covering almost all the travel expenses, so it ultimately evens out.
Leia Posted March 22, 2010 Posted March 22, 2010 Ms. Leia, if you are in a LTR, does it really matter, who pays? OK, Ms. TBF, The man should pay for the baby food, that's the least he can do. No. But I have been in a couple of relationships where I did most of the paying as I was too stupid to realise then that those guys were a bunch of freeloaders.
marsle85 Posted March 22, 2010 Posted March 22, 2010 You have a very creative mind when it comes to making rationalizations Haha, I think that's about as close as compliment(?) as I'll ever get from you... I'll take it! How do you feel you can justify these comments? How do you feel you have a right to share in his money, regardless of how much each of you make? That's my bad- nor do I really think that... I didn't communicate that as well as I would have liked to.
JustJoe Posted March 22, 2010 Posted March 22, 2010 In that case, Leia, I can understand your thinking. That's another reason , I always pay early on in a relationship, so she knows that I'm in it for her, not her Dinero.
threebyfate Posted March 22, 2010 Posted March 22, 2010 Anyways, overall, it's up to the couples involved, who ends up paying for all the dates. marsle, I think your comment touched off a soft spot for me, in that I once dated a guy who felt that because I had more, I should shell out more. Not only did I tell him off, I also dumped him like a hot potato.
JustJoe Posted March 22, 2010 Posted March 22, 2010 TBF, I don't even know what a "thread Warden ", is, so it would be pretty unlikely if I was one.
tigressA Posted March 22, 2010 Posted March 22, 2010 I'll step up and answer the men's request that we progressive women honor across-the-board equality where money is concerned. But here's the thing... I have never once dated a man who didn't want to pay for dates. In fact, most of the men I have dated wanted to pay for pretty much everything we did together, and some of them acted downright offended when I offered to pay. Their attitude suggests, "What are you doing? I'm THE MAN. I pay." I have taken their lead, and they are usually VERY clear on how they want things to be. This is how it's been for me too. I won't lie--it's really nice. But I always insist on moderately priced places, never order anything ludicrously expensive, etc. Fairly often I will at the very least offer to pay for something, and while my offer gets turned down every time, I know they appreciate it. And I take care of a guy in other ways--I'll cook as often as we go out, if not more so, and come up with fun things to do together that don't cost any money.
JustJoe Posted March 22, 2010 Posted March 22, 2010 Tigress, THAT'S what I'm talking about. There are many ways for a woman to show her appreciation, for a nice night out. If she offers to pay, it does make me feel good, also, if she had a good time, and shows it, is also a big positive.
Stung Posted March 22, 2010 Posted March 22, 2010 (edited) Payment, for me, was dependent on circumstance. 1) When I met someone I had only encountered briefly and impersonally through a medium like an online dating site, or if it was a blind date, or we had just met by chance, I usually assumed it would be more of a meet-n-greet than a real date, and that we would be going dutch, so I would offer to pick up my half. 2a) If we had already met a few times or knew each other socially already and the other person liked and was trying to woo me, I did like to be courted. Honestly, this scenario accounts for most of my dating experience as I was never that big on dating strangers or multi-dating. Courtship could involve the other person paying for a date, but I was also impressed by people just putting some effort into a date, suggesting and arranging something that took some forethought that they knew enough about me to know I would enjoy, i.e. planning/packing a picnic or cooking a meal, finding out about and planning a trip around a meteor shower or gallery opening or free outdoor theater/concert event...it didn't have to cost the other person a dime, what I liked most was being shown that I was worth their putting forth some creative effort. However, 2b) If we were out and about and I saw someplace I wanted to stop into for dessert or a drink or whatever and it was my suggestion which they hadn't planned on, I would offer to pay. Only fair. 3) If it was a person that I was pursuing and asking out, I would treat. Usually addressing this openly up-front charms and disarms any old-fashioned guys who might be uncomfortable if you just slide the check away from them, in my experience. To be honest I didn't ask people out very often, but I have done it at least a handful of times. It's a nerve-wracking experience, every girl should try it, gives you some perspective. Those guidelines served me well for the first few dates; once courtship was more established, if we were into each other and having a great time, who cared? I paid for things, they paid for things, we hung out at each other's houses and watched dvds and went for walks and did other free things, it all just depended on who could afford what and who had the idea for what and what else we'd been doing recently...and then if we really liked each other we were likely having too much sex to worry about going out anywhere expensive very often. Edited March 22, 2010 by Stung
harmfulsweetz Posted March 22, 2010 Posted March 22, 2010 Oooh this discussion again! :rolleyes: I find it mildly baffling that women (and I am a woman myself) want equality with men, and have fought for it for a long time, to not be traditional, stay at home housewives, but when it comes to dating, still expect to be treated traditionally, and have the men pay. Why? Because they very simply want equality only when it suits them, when it benefits them, and when they are about to be out of pocket, they pull out the traditional card. Sorry, but that's is true. We expect to be seen as equal, but yet, we also expect to be taken care of, (how is that equal?) I think it is nice when the guy pays sure, it's always nice. Yet, I don't feel a sense of entitlement to that. If he wants to split, I'm happy and I wouldn't judge him unfairly for that. I've been on some fairly poor dates in terms of money, but it wasn't the issue that I paid, or that he didn't that bothered me. It was the way in which they did it. It was sneaky. Like, I went on a date with my boyfriend of 5 months (not now my bf) and it was our first real 'date like' thing we'd been on. The meal was cheap, and because he handed over the note which covered the bill, he requested I pay my share. For the first time he'd ever took me out. I'm not adverse to splitting, but I thought it may have been nice for him to treat me, bearing in mind, I treat him by cooking meals etc. And it was cheap. The other date that sticks in my head, was going to a sushi restaurant (I hate fish) only having a coke, and he ordered quite expensive stuff off the menu. Bill came, he had no money. Quite annoying. But it wasn't the money that really bothered me. Money is money, big deal, more where it came from. It was how it was handled, and how I was expected to foot their bill. It's always good when the guy wants to pay, what's annoying is the guys who pay, but pay grudgingly. If you want to split, say so! Rule of thumb for men, first dates, just pay, it's saves the arguments. It's a minefield for some guys, because if they pay the woman may get all feminist crappy on him, and if he offers to split,they get all traditional.
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