Woggle Posted March 22, 2010 Posted March 22, 2010 No, Johnny, but ambitious and successful men don't throw hissy fits over paying 20 bucks extra for a first date. How about this: some women also want gentlemen, not stingy die-hard 'equalists'. If women want gentlemen are they willing to do tradionally feminine things? Tradition should go both ways.
Tnerforireyeh Posted March 22, 2010 Posted March 22, 2010 It is man's instinct to protect and provide, these kind of men make good husband Right, because all men are exactly the same. yeesh. Anyway, fortunately I don't give a hoot what women think of me. I only care about what they do. If I can get a girl to not only pay for me, but then spread her legs afterward, I'm doing something right. And if a guy has to constantly prove his masculinity to himself by opening up his wallet, then that's his own psychological problem. I don't have that same problem. I like it when women pay for me, I like it when women put out for me on the first date, I like it when women drive the car and I sit in the passenger side, I like it when women open the door for me. These things make me feel good. If some dudes would feel like "less of a man," then they can do the opposite, I don't care. I was reading up on "pimps" awhile back and they usually take the "traditionally female" role in their relationships with their "hoes." There's an 80s gangster movie with Robert DeNiro and I think James Woods that analyzes to some extent this dynamic. De Niro is spending a ton of money on this chick who is giving it all to her pimp. I'd rather be the pimp.
Els Posted March 22, 2010 Posted March 22, 2010 If you don't like them and don't do them, where is the justification in expecting to be treated all the time? You must be getting my posts mixed up. I never said I did. I'm simply calling the bluff of men who EXPECT women to do them, but also expect to not pay a dime extra on the first date!
Lovelybird Posted March 22, 2010 Posted March 22, 2010 If a woman wants a protector and a provider then she should be willing to hold up her end of the traditional deal. Either you want an equal partnership or you don't. Equal partnership doesn't have to mean that both should do same things. He may protect and provide, she may care and nurture. Different roles, and different strength, they treat each other with respect, but split responsibilities.
Els Posted March 22, 2010 Posted March 22, 2010 If women want gentlemen are they willing to do tradionally feminine things? Tradition should go both ways. Yes, they should. Equally, if men want 50.0000/50.0000 on first dates, they should expect the woman to spend not a second or dime more on their appearances than they themselves do, take care of the baby half the time, do half of the cleaning and cooking, and be equally willing to give up their job to stay at home for the kids. They should ideally be able to share half of pregnancy and labour as well, but unfortunately that's impossible.
Johnny M Posted March 22, 2010 Posted March 22, 2010 Johnny, it is no lie. This forum alone speaks volumes. Despite there being FAR more women than men on it, there are more threads about women's physical appearances, and also more male posters (talking about number here, not even ratio) referring to appearances as their main criteria. I don't really care what this forum speaks for. My life experience suggests that women of my generation (I'm in my late 20s) care about looks as much as men do. I've seen average and unattractive men introduce themselves to women only to be rudely dismissed and later referred to as a 'creep', while the very same women would blush and get all excited when approached by a hot guy. So don't even try to convince me that women are somehow less 'shallow' - it's a total load of BS.
Woggle Posted March 22, 2010 Posted March 22, 2010 Equal partnership doesn't have to mean that both should do same things. He may protect and provide, she may care and nurture. Different roles, and different strength, they treat each other with respect, but split responsibilities. If that is what works for a couple then fine but each couple should decide that on their own.
Els Posted March 22, 2010 Posted March 22, 2010 I don't really care what this forum speaks for. My life experience suggests that women of my generation (I'm in my late 20s) care about looks as much as men do. I've seen average and unattractive men introduce themselves to women only to be rudely dismissed and later referred to as a 'creep', while the very same women would blush and get all excited when approached by a hot guy. So don't even try to convince me that women are somehow less 'shallow' - it's a total load of BS. Fine, that's your subjective opinion, and as there's no objective way for me to disprove it, I'll let that be. How about the differing standards of beauty and the time, effort, and cost required to maintain them?
Woggle Posted March 22, 2010 Posted March 22, 2010 Yes, they should. Equally, if men want 50.0000/50.0000 on first dates, they should expect the woman to spend not a second or dime more on their appearances than they themselves do, take care of the baby half the time, do half of the cleaning and cooking, and be equally willing to give up their job to stay at home for the kids. They should ideally be able to share half of pregnancy and labour as well, but unfortunately that's impossible. My wife and I don't have kids but we both share the chores and if we ever have kids we would share everything but the pregnancy which is impossible. Most women like to do themselves up whether they have a date or not but most men think women look hot when they first wake up. My wife looks great in the morning her bed clothes with hair all over the place.
sally4sara Posted March 22, 2010 Posted March 22, 2010 No I'm not confused about which post, but perhaps what you meant by the one below. Particularly this part: Females have to keep fit, style their hair, wear cosmetics, wear accesories, wear clothes that flatter their figure, wax their legs and pits, pluck their eyebrows, keep their skin smooth and flawless - and STILL have to be born with a pretty face and hourglass body to attain the male ideal. If this is the justification for why men should pay, and you don't do this beauty rigamarole, then why do you still expect a man to pay for you? I'm not trying to pick a fight, I'm trying to understand what your point with the beauty routine is getting at in regard to why men should pay.
Lovelybird Posted March 22, 2010 Posted March 22, 2010 Right, because all men are exactly the same. yeesh. Anyway, fortunately I don't give a hoot what women think of me. I only care about what they do. If I can get a girl to not only pay for me, but then spread her legs afterward, I'm doing something right. And if a guy has to constantly prove his masculinity to himself by opening up his wallet, then that's his own psychological problem. I don't have that same problem. I like it when women pay for me, I like it when women put out for me on the first date, I like it when women drive the car and I sit in the passenger side, I like it when women open the door for me. These things make me feel good. If some dudes would feel like "less of a man," then they can do the opposite, I don't care. I was reading up on "pimps" awhile back and they usually take the "traditionally female" role in their relationships with their "hoes." There's an 80s gangster movie with Robert DeNiro and I think James Woods that analyzes to some extent this dynamic. De Niro is spending a ton of money on this chick who is giving it all to her pimp. I'd rather be the pimp. Vampire
Jersey Shortie Posted March 22, 2010 Posted March 22, 2010 LOL, how did I know you would ask precisely that question A person's physical appearance is what triggers sexual attraction in members of the opposite sex and is therefore a major part of who that person is. So I repeat my answer to your question: I have only ever gone out with a woman for who she was. Oh Sweetie. You had no clue what question I would precisely ask. You're just trying to make it sound as if you do. You use that phrase quite alot but never once actually fortold any information to prove the truth behind it. If looks make the person, so does money. The fact that you are so very sensitive about money, speaks volumes of your insecurity on this issue. You want to be able to choose women are shallow, not necessarily wrong, factors. Do not be surprised when women choose men on shallow, not necessarily wrong factors as well. Men are more disconcerning on looks. Do not begrudge women for rightly so being more disconcerning on money. I'm in agreement with Elswyth. Women don't start threads about men's looks and we don't seem to rate men on the same scale as men do with women. Lets be honest. Men are harsher judges on women's looks. Women should be allowed to be hasher judges on a man's wallet. Golddigger is a term insecure men throw around. I am not embaressed and won't deny that I hold certain expectations about a man's finacial status and his willingus to share it. But I would never be with a man or take advantage of him for this reason. How do I know you might ask? Because I've had the chance and didn't take advantage of it.
Johnny M Posted March 22, 2010 Posted March 22, 2010 No, Johnny, but ambitious and successful men don't throw hissy fits over paying 20 bucks extra for a first date. How about this: some women also want gentlemen, not stingy die-hard 'equalists'. And some men want women who don't throw hissy fits over having to pay 20 bucks for their own food. Some men like women who believe that the concept of equality should be applied universally - not only when it benefits the woman.
Els Posted March 22, 2010 Posted March 22, 2010 S4S: I don't expect men to pay for me!! Sorry about the impatience, but I've said this three times: I'm just trying to call men on their hypocrisy. If they expect a woman to spend all that time, effort, and money to look '8 and above' for them (which is far more than they themselves spend), why are they throwing a fit over not having the date money split 50/50? Johnny: By the way, from my own life experience, yes, women giggle and blush over looks equally much, but when a guy with less-than-average looks but whom they like in other aspects courts them, they fall head over heels in love regardless. Men seldom do that with less-than-average looking women.
Woggle Posted March 22, 2010 Posted March 22, 2010 Women should protect themselves from men looking for trophy wives. I don't blame women that do but don't blame men for wanting protect ourselves from golddiggers.
Els Posted March 22, 2010 Posted March 22, 2010 No woman throws a hissy fit over being asked to pay, Johnny. You're right, if she does, it shows simple immaturity - she should graciously pay her share. But she can make her own opinions of the man after the night. As for your universal equality, since you're so up for it, hopefully you don't mind this: they should expect the woman to spend not a second or dime more on their appearances than they themselves do, take care of the baby half the time, do half of the cleaning and cooking, and be equally willing to give up their job to stay at home for the kids. They should ideally be able to share half of pregnancy and labour as well, but unfortunately that's impossible.
Els Posted March 22, 2010 Posted March 22, 2010 My wife and I don't have kids but we both share the chores and if we ever have kids we would share everything but the pregnancy which is impossible. Most women like to do themselves up whether they have a date or not but most men think women look hot when they first wake up. My wife looks great in the morning her bed clothes with hair all over the place. Really? Even if she doesn't style her hair but merely cuts it like how men do, and doesn't tone, moisturise and cleanse her skin, and doesn't pluck/wax? And you don't feel the desire to be the 'head of the family', or have her take your surname, or anything of the sort? If you really think so, then you are a rare man, and you certainly deserve that equality that you want.
marsle85 Posted March 22, 2010 Posted March 22, 2010 All is fair in love and war. Men aren't employing fairness when choosing a woman to ask out, are they? Most of the time, they're asking her out for certain physical qualities. Most of the time, women accept based on certain qualities as well. One important quality to me is generosity. He can enjoy my qualities if I can enjoy his. Tradeoff. And logically speaking, whoever is initiating the dates should be the one paying. If I asked my friend out to lunch, i'd pay. How does that not make sense? This isn't up for negotiation for me.
Tnerforireyeh Posted March 22, 2010 Posted March 22, 2010 All this back and forth is truly meaningless. The dating market will sort it out. If one party asks for too much, then that person will get nothing. We can all sit around behind our computer screens and type out silly boy vs girl crap until the cows come home, but in the real world we all make concessions when we know we have to. Gold digging chicks usually wind up with nothing. Just ask whats her name.. the big blond who got $0 from that 90 year old she married for a year. And dudes who look like crap and have no game who expect women to put out on the first date usually get nothing as well. I'd like to see how all the big talkers here actually do in the dating world. Something tells me they give a lot more than they say they do, or they wind up alone in front of their computers a lot. Me, I'm the funniest mo-fo on the planet when I'm out with a chick. I keep her laughing all night, which takes effort. And then sometimes I take her home and sometimes she refuses. I don't always get laid but at least I don't come out of it feeling like I was taken advantage of. The trick is to know where to draw the line.
Johnny M Posted March 22, 2010 Posted March 22, 2010 Oh Sweetie. You had no clue what question I would precisely ask. You're just trying to make it sound as if you do. You use that phrase quite alot but never once actually fortold any information to prove the truth behind it. Oh Sweetie, you are so obvious and predictable, it doesn't take great skill to figure out your thought process and 'foretell' what's coming next. After all, you are the person who started the "looks-digger" thread Yes, I know that you believe that taking a woman's physical attractiveness into account is 'shallow'. I am willing to bet that this belief has something to do with your insecurities about your own looks. And I also know that you think that women care less about physical attractiveness than men do. As I already stated, this is just a self-comforting lie that women invent to convince themselves that the men who reject them are 'morally inferior'.
sally4sara Posted March 22, 2010 Posted March 22, 2010 S4S: I don't expect men to pay for me!! Sorry about the impatience, but I've said this three times: I'm just trying to call men on their hypocrisy. Okay, fair enough. Sorry I misunderstood from your point that it wasn't about you personal expectations.
sally4sara Posted March 22, 2010 Posted March 22, 2010 Gold digging chicks usually wind up with nothing. Just ask whats her name.. the big blond who got $0 from that 90 year old she married for a year. You can't ask her anything - she is dead.
Woggle Posted March 22, 2010 Posted March 22, 2010 Also men who go for strictly physical are idiots. Who wants a nice looking statue who has an intolerable personality? Certainly not me. Materialism in women is one of my biggest turnoffs and I would reject a perfect 10 physically because of it.
Els Posted March 22, 2010 Posted March 22, 2010 Okay, fair enough. Sorry I misunderstood from your point that it wasn't about you personal expectations. No problem. I certainly would never EXPECT a man to pay, unless he insists on going somewhere that I can't afford. I find it a nice gesture if he does, but I certainly don't feel entitled to it. Just as how I'm sure my guy finds it nice if I dress up sometimes, but doesn't expect it.
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